How do you co-ordinate lessons on each instrument?

[Ken]

I was wondering how other doublers organize lessons between multiple instruments.

I would like to take lessons again on three instruments (sax, clarinet and flute) and am considering the following options:

-One teacher for all instruments
-Specialist teacher for each instrument
-Lessons once a week on all instruments i.e. 3 lessons a week (probably a bit much)
-1 lesson on each instrument every 3 weeks
-Lessons on one instrument for a certain duration e.g. 1 year, then move on to the next instrument etc.

How do you do organize your lessons?

Thanks.

[Carl H.]

How much time can you devote to uninterrupted practice?

[tensopbass]

The last one. This year it's alto My main double is soprano (for the clarinet bits) Tenor seems to be looking after itself. Bari, mel and bass only come out for special occasions. nicko

[Ken]

How much time can you devote to uninterrupted practice?
I practise 1 hour per day, or 4 hours per week. The other 3 days of the week are taken up by a couple of rehearsals and a lesson

[bpimentel]

I was wondering how other doublers organize lessons between multiple instruments.

This is a great question with no great answers--there's no ideal way to study multiple instruments. I am a graduate student working on a doctoral degree in multiple woodwinds performance (fl, ob, cl, bsn, sax), so I'm well acquainted with the problem!


-One teacher for all instruments
-Specialist teacher for each instrument


Absolutely, get a specialist teacher for each instrument! There are few--VERY few--teachers out there who are genuine specialists in more than one instrument. We doublers need all the help we can get; get the finest instruction that you possibly can.

-Lessons once a week on all instruments i.e. 3 lessons a week (probably a bit much)
-1 lesson on each instrument every 3 weeks
-Lessons on one instrument for a certain duration e.g. 1 year, then move on to the next instrument etc.


I currently study three instruments at a time, rotating each semester (so, I'm currently taking flute, clarinet, and saxophone; next semester will be flute, oboe, and bassoon; the next semester will be clarinet, bassoon, and saxophone, and so on). I'm a full time student; even on weeks when I can find six or eight hours a day to practice, six days a week, I'm still underprepared for my three weekly lessons.

If you have four hours a week to devote to practicing, then I would definitely recommend studying one instrument at a time, maybe for a year-long stretch like you mentioned. Frankly, I would hesitate to recommend doubling at all to someone with such limited practice time; ultimately you, of course, have to decide what you are capable of.

Studying one instrument at a time, you will have to expect that the others will suffer in the meantime. I don't know anyone as lucky as nicko, who has instruments "look after" themselves!

Hope that helps.

Good luck--
Bret

[Carl H.]

I practise 1 hour per day, or 4 hours per week. The other 3 days of the week are taken up by a couple of rehearsals and a lesson

Take lessons on the instrument you are playing in the rehearsals. In college I had 3 primary instruments which equals 3 intense lessons and no private life.

Generally this was fine with me, however . . .

I had my saxophone lesson immediately before the wind ensemble rehearsal in which I played clarinet. I can tell you there are more differences between clarinet and sax the more advanced you get. Coming out of a great lesson and picking up a similar but different instrument didn't do much good for me.

I can still remember "waking up" during rehearsals and concerts and not being immediately aware of which instrument I was playing at the time. Hours and more hours of practicing helped make playing more reflexive than conscious so I just played on until I was sure where I was and what I was doing.

When you are labeled "Ubiquitous" you might be getting it about right.

It's a hard road learning doubles, but the destination is a blast (Until you have to carry and pack up all your instruments.)

[saxfreak]

I've been interested in the responses to this question and I think the advice given has been very good. I was a woodwinds major in college, and I studied my main instrument (clarinet) and took secondary lessons on the other 4 woodwinds one at a time. On double reeds and flute I was a beginner, and I was only able to develop a modest level of skill on these before I segued to the next new instrument. I found the experience to be a lot of fun, but I didn't get to be very good on the secondary instruments during my college years.
In the (many) years since my college days, I have not kept up on double reeds (more of a commitment than I was willing to accept) and I've spent a lot of time concentrating on flute, which was the toughest double for me. I tend to zero in on one instrument at a time and sort of obsess on it until the novelty wears off, then I shift my focus to another horn. That helps keep everything a little fresher. Recently I added recorders and bass clarinet to my stable, so that spread things out a little thinner.
I would agree with bpimentel's suggestion to study with a specialized teacher, and also to concentrate on one instrument at a time.
Have a great time learning the doubles. It's enjoyable to play a variety of instruments and different styles of music. However, the comment about schlepping all the heavy cases is accurate.

[Ken]

Thanks for the replies.

Interesting, and even surprising that most of you concentrate on one instrument at a time regarding lessons and even practising.

Thinking about this, if you concentrate on one instrument at a time your progress would be faster but would that not be cancelled out during the times when you are concentrating on the other instruments?

If you are taking one lesson every three weeks rotating between 3 instruments then your progress would be slower but more consistent. So I guess I'm not seeing what the advantage is in the concentrated approach.

[Carl H.]

...So I guess I'm not seeing what the advantage is in the concentrated approach.
It gives you a solid base to build on. There are enough similarities with WW instruments that without some serious dedicated practice, your technique will probably be a hybrid unless you focus. This is why many clarinet players sound fine to everybody except the serious sax players when they grab a sax. It is also why clarinet players can usually pickout a sax player on clarinet too.

You need to put in the time specifically dedicated to the instrument in hand so that you are a player, not just somebody picking it up.
A true doubler doesn't sound like a doubler.

http://scott.endsley.com/bach.jpg

[bpimentel]

If you are taking one lesson every three weeks rotating between 3 instruments then your progress would be slower but more consistent. So I guess I'm not seeing what the advantage is in the concentrated approach.

As a general rule, I think an hour a day of practicing is a minimum requirement for making progress on a single instrument. With the practice schedule you've described, I'd say you're lucky if you're managing to just maintain your current playing level. Rotating between three instruments, I think for most people progress would slow down enough to be nonexistent.

Certainly it's possible to make progress on more than on instrument at a time, but it takes lots of practicing--several hours per day. That's why, in your case, I have suggested one instrument at a time.

[goodsax]

This is a great question, and one I grappled with for awhile. I tried, with two different private teachers, alternating clarinet and sax every other week, or sax one week and clarinet the next. I'm primarily a sax player wanting to double on clarinet, so at first I worked longer and harder on the clarinet between lessons, but never quite found the best balance. To make matters worse, I recently purchased a flute to add to the mix. Most of the time it sits unused while I work on one or more of my SATB saxes, and work on the clarinet comes after that.

I need more time each day for practice and greater discipline to seriously expect improvement on either the clarinet or the flute. A fairly time-consuming day job, playing sax in four bands, plus keeping my wife happy with her weekly trips to the mall (she doesn't drive) leaves little time for pursuing my doubling goals. I haven't thrown in the towel yet, but it is very difficult and that's why I can personally relate to your dilemma.

[Ken]

It gives you a solid base to build on. There are enough similarities with WW instruments that without some serious dedicated practice, your technique will probably be a hybrid unless you focus.
I agree that concentrating on one instrument at a time gives you a solid base, but would this still apply for those who already have a solid base established?

As a general rule, I think an hour a day of practicing is a minimum requirement for making progress on a single instrument. With the practice schedule you've described, I'd say you're lucky if you're managing to just maintain your current playing level. Rotating between three instruments, I think for most people progress would slow down enough to be nonexistent.
I'm not sure I agree that one has to play several hours per day on your instruments to improve on each of them. Some people reckon that, say if sax is your main instrument, doubling on other instruments actually helps your sax playing. I think my playing has continuously improved on 1hr/day albeit slowly. I have some recordings to prove it :).

I tried, with two different private teachers, alternating clarinet and sax every other week, or sax one week and clarinet the next. I'm primarily a sax player wanting to double on clarinet, so at first I worked longer and harder on the clarinet between lessons, but never quite found the best balance. To make matters worse, I recently purchased a flute to add to the mix. Most of the time it sits unused while I work on one or more of my SATB saxes, and work on the clarinet comes after that.
I also started on sax and consider it my primary horn. After my teacher had me complete a sax method, he repeated the process for clarinet. When learning clarinet I split my practice time equally between the two, technique on clarinet, and improv on sax. When learning flute I spent 18 months working almost soley on flute, more as a result of circumstances than by design (I could only play flute in the apartment I was in at the time).

[Carl H.]

Work in the shed is easy because nobody is calling you on anything you are missing. You need to get out into the real world with your doubles to make real progress. I have known many "practice room gods" who were unemployable. They could do it all on their own terms, but couldn't hack it with others. This is why I recommend studying what you are playing in whatever group you are performing in.

[danarsenault]

I find doubles shedding perhaps a little different than some posters here. If I have to play flute on a job, I need a lot of flute work in the preceding weeks to actually sound like a flute player. The same is true, to a lesser degree, with oboe. All the rest of the clarinets and saxes, with the possible exception of Eefer, go on 'maintenance' practice during those times - just enough to keep the embouchure muscle memory. Depending on the job, I may need to do a bit of work on just changing instruments, say from contra-alto clarinet to flute, to remember just how to set my chops after contra to make a reasnonable flute tone on the first note. Some of this, no doubt, stems from the work and practicing I have done over the years. Like most people, I suppose, I like to enjoy my practice time when not in serious prep mode by playing the instruments and music that I prefer to play. If I had more discipline I would probably work on the harder doubles more often and not be in such a crash mode when the call comes. I'm not really high up in heirarchy of calls that go out around here to cover jobs, after all those 15 years off, so a lot of the calls I do get are last minute/sub kind of calls.

[Carl H.]

If I have to play flute on a job, I need a lot of flute work in the preceding weeks to actually sound like a flute player. The same is true, to a lesser degree, wtih oboe.

I suspect most doublers do this as well. You work/ practice what is needed for the gig, but this supposes you already know how to play the instrument and probably own the instrument as well. There is no need to "learn" the intricacies of a different horn and its needs, just to refresh yourself before you are on.

[Radjammin]

well I will speak from what I have done. My sax teacher expected 15 hours a week in college. Now while I did clarinet and trumpet lessons I gave each of thouse instruments 3-4 hours weekly in practice time. I didn't do the lessons at the same time. Usually Primary and 1 secondary. I just wouldn't strech yourself too thin. Just blowing the horns might not get you very far. I would work on as many instruments that you truely have time for. Don't kid yourself. If you don't have time to do them all, put the least usefull off to the side until you do. Just don't forget to come back to it....

[Ken]

I think I get it now. Thanks.

[saxfreak]

Depending on the job, I may need to do a bit of work on just changing instruments, say from contra-alto clarinet to flute, to remember just how to set my chops after contra to make a reasnonable flute tone on the first note.

This is an important point. Other threads have mentioned the challenge of switching between horns on doubling gigs like pit work. This is a skill all by itself. If I'm playing a steady pit gig that runs for several performances, I find that the switches get easier during the run - particularly the switches going to flute.
Funny how you also mentioned Eb clarinet - that requires a LOT of attention too.

[Ken]

Work in the shed is easy because nobody is calling you on anything you are missing.
That's basically why I'm looking at getting a teacher again
You need to get out into the real world with your doubles to make real progress. I have known many "practice room gods" who were unemployable. They could do it all on their own terms, but couldn't hack it with others.
I agree. After you have reached a certain level of proficiency you need to get out there. It's like a feedback mechanism that lets you know where you stand, and what you need to work on. I've done this off and on in the past but am trying to do this whenever I can now
This is why I recommend studying what you are playing in whatever group you are performing in.
That's an idea worth considering. I'm currently rehearsing on sax and flute. I'm about to take sax lessons, but am already taking clarinet lessons because I recently bought a bass clarinet. So it looks like flute lessons are out for the moment.

[asaxman]

This is a great question with no great answers--there's no ideal way to study multiple instruments. I am a graduate student working on a doctoral degree in multiple woodwinds performance (fl, ob, cl, bsn, sax), so I'm well acquainted with the problem!




Absolutely, get a specialist teacher for each instrument! There are few--VERY few--teachers out there who are genuine specialists in more than one instrument. We doublers need all the help we can get; get the finest instruction that you possibly can.



I currently study three instruments at a time, rotating each semester (so, I'm currently taking flute, clarinet, and saxophone; next semester will be flute, oboe, and bassoon; the next semester will be clarinet, bassoon, and saxophone, and so on). I'm a full time student; even on weeks when I can find six or eight hours a day to practice, six days a week, I'm still underprepared for my three weekly lessons.

If you have four hours a week to devote to practicing, then I would definitely recommend studying one instrument at a time, maybe for a year-long stretch like you mentioned. Frankly, I would hesitate to recommend doubling at all to someone with such limited practice time; ultimately you, of course, have to decide what you are capable of.

Studying one instrument at a time, you will have to expect that the others will suffer in the meantime. I don't know anyone as lucky as nicko, who has instruments "look after" themselves!

Hope that helps.

Good luck--
Bret
Check out Bret's Website on woodwind doubling- There's a TON of information! Also- switching instruments quickly, is VERY difficult! Try playing altissimo on alto, or tenor for a couple of hours on an R&B gig, and then play something delicate on flute! Damn near impossible! On the other hand, if I play flute ONLY for two hours, it's easy,(and fun).

[Razzy]

I have a huge free Tuesday afternoon in my schedule, and seeing this during the summer, took advantage and scheduled flute and clarinet lessons in this time with teachers that I really wanted to study with. So, flute one Tuesday, clarinet the next, and so on, while having my sax lessons here at college every Thursday.

It got to be too much to handle, very quickly.

I've stopped the clarinet lessons for now, for several reasons, but mainly because I didn't have the time to put into preparing for serious lessons with heavy hitters on both doubles. In about a year I might add the clarinet once flute gets a little more comfortable, but as things are now, I simply don't have the time.

[Benny]

Work on 1 horn at a time and spend periods of time where you make that one your main instrument. Keep your other instruments going by way of rehearsals, gigs and small ammounts of maintenance practise. They may not feel totally comfortable but if you've done the work in the past others will think they sound good. This allows you to completely focus on the instrument you are adding to your arsenal.
Once you have worked on all the instruments you require, do the practise you need to for work that is coming up.
Identify low and high maintenance horns. Ie: for me this is baritone sax, soprano sax to some degree, bass clarinet. If my alto and tenor sax chops are working properly I know that baritone and soprano will fall into place with some, but not much work. Likewise with clarinet and bass clarinet. Flute and oboe must be played everyday for me. These doubles, followed by clarinet, require the greatest finesse therefore regular work.
A week off flute practise will effect its tone more than a week away from any reed instrument, single or double. So, practise it every day, even for only 20 minutes. Establish a good, but not lengthy warm-up and do it to make sure that your embouchure is functioning properly and is relaxed.

Also, remeber that at a certain stage it becomes more about practsing principles of wind playing more than specific instruments. Once you have developed good fundamentals (tone, pitch, articulation, vibrato etc) on each instrument you can practise one instrument but at the same time be working on others because the principles and aims are the same.

[And7barton]

You should NEVER practise.
If it was good enough for Stan Getz, then it's good enough for the likes of us.