Ball and socket side key mechanism

[davidk]

Hi

Does anybody know over the what period Selmer used the ball and socket side key design? I have seen them on the later period Mark VIs. What was used before this, and how do the different mechanisms compare?

Thanks

[Chris Peryagh]

I think it was introduced sometime between 1966 and 1969. Before this, the side C and Bb side key arms had an oval(ish) hole through the end which the ends of the cup arms fitted into with a plastic sleeve to silence the action. The ends of the key arms were closed, not open forks as they were before and after the ball-and-socket affair.

The problem with the ball-and-socket design is noise when there's play in the mechanism and it can't be tightened up without surgery - thick oil helps, but the holes through the key arms is usually oversize causing the rods to rattle.

The current Yamaha 875 saxes have this, though they do have Teflon sleeves on the ends of the cup arms, but again the rod going through the key arms usually has slop in it, and again this is where heavy oil helps dampen any noise.

The forks are a better design as they can be adjusted, but for some reason on Yamahas, the side Bb seems to always rattle - all the 62 saxes I've had have had a noisy side Bb, even an 82Z (which has almost the same keywork as a 62) I tried had the same trouble.

[Mike F]

To the best of my knowledge the design (hook and eye to ball and socket) was changed somewhere between 110xxx and 120xxx.
I prefer to talk serial numbers rather than years as there doesn't seem to be much agreement about which serial numbers correspond to which years.
I have a 106xxx alto (1963?) which has hook and eye, and a 121xxx tenor (1964?) which has ball and socket.
All mk6's (to the end of the run) had the ball and socket design after it was introduced.

[Stan]

My 120.7xx tenor has the ball and socket design.

Stan

[rollen]

112xxx alto has "hook and eye"

[Mike F]

Stan,

I've noticed that we have some very 'close' instruments, ie I have a mk6 tenor 1214xx and a YSS62 33xx!
I think that those early YSS62's were the best. I bought mine second hand after a search. I think that the body tube is the same as the YSS61 (with the small flare in the neck and the low C sharp not in line with B and Bb) which had IMO a sweeter sound, but with the better 62 keywork.

[Mike F]

There's a 116xxx alto on the Vintage Sax Gallery with "hook and eye" - we're getting close!

[Stan]

Stan,

I've noticed that we have some very 'close' instruments, ie I have a mk6 tenor 1214xx and a YSS62 33xx!
I think that those early YSS62's were the best. I bought mine second hand after a search. I think that the body tube is the same as the YSS61 (with the small flare in the neck and the low C sharp not in line with B and Bb) which had IMO a sweeter sound, but with the better 62 keywork.

Yes they are wonderful saxophones, we know :)

Stan

[Chu-Jerry]

My 187xxx alto has the "ball and socket" linkages. I use a heavy grease on those, not oil, and it quiets them down for a very long time.

[RS]

My two 5 digit altos (74K and 81K) have the oval hole design. I checked out my fairly new (one year old) Yani 992 and it has something similar except that the hole is open on the outer end. It forms a narrow "U" shape. The action of side Bb and C is smooth and quiet on all three horns. I've always found the ball and socket design to be a little clackety on these keys.

[A Greene]

My 187XXX had the ball joint designed. The noise drove me crazy. I had the Oleg adapters put on and it's much better. The Oleg adapters basically change the ball joint into the Oval/Pin. Very Clever.

[davidk]

Thanks for the responses. Looks like Oleg adapters are the way to go for the post-120k horns.

[Stan]

Where I can find the Oleg adapters?

Thanks,

Stan

[whaler]

I like the ball joint. All the noise makes it sound like I'm playing fast.

[Dave Dolson]

My 110xxx VI alto has the open oblong/oval holes (the insides are shaped as if there were two different-sized roundish areas) with the levers inside the holes. DAVE

[hornimprovement]

Where I can find the Oleg adapters?

Thanks,

Stan
I stock them. E-mail me at the shop jeff@hornimprovement.com if you are interested. They are easy to install and I think they run around $80 these days. -Jeff

[Dr_sax]

Also my 1047xx tenor has the ball and socket design. I´m also tempted to get the oleg thingies.

[A Greene]

I know I posted this earlier, but I had the Oleg Adapters put on my Alto and they work PERFECTLY. Every bit as quiet as my earlier non-ball-joint VI tenor - there is also no permanent damage or modification needed. A tech just needs to adjust the fit. I don't work for Oleg in any manner. I even purchased my set on e-bay. A really good idea THAT WORKS.

[Mike F]

Dr sax,

Are you sure about your 104xxx tenor having the ball and socket design? If it does, it makes things very confusing about when the design was changed as we had previously narrowed it down to between 116xxx and 120xxx.

Sorry to doubt you, but it would be good to know for sure!