Lamberson J6/Morgan 6C

[magical pig]

Hi all!

Though I'm still getting my stuff together on tenor, I'll get a Lamberson J6 soon. I currently play a Morgan 6C with Alex.Sup.Classic. #3.5.

Playability, projection, sound, reed friendliness is fine with the Morgan it's just that 1) I'm curious about those Lamberson and I get a good deal for the piece 2)I want to get rid of that "Joe Henderson" frequency coming from the Morgan. I'm sure that with proper embouchure adjustments I could get rid of most of it though. Don't be mistaken, the Morgan is a keeper and an incredible player especially for the price you can get those...

For information Morgan 6C : .090 (= Link6) / Lamberson J6 : .100 (= Link7)
I've played a STM Link 8* (.115) with no problem whatsoever. It's just that the Link would need refacing.

Any thoughts on what surprises I might experience with the Lamberson J6, good or bad?

[EZ]

Based on my experiences with Lambersons and Morgans, I would expect the Lamberson to play darker and with more resistance than the Morgan.

[TJS]

What is the Joe Henderson frequency and why would you want to get rid of anything related to Joe Henderson from your playing? With all due respect. I just love Joe Henderson and have been trying to get as much of him in to playing as possible.

[magical pig]

Based on my experiences with Lambersons and Morgans, I would expect the Lamberson to play darker and with more resistance than the Morgan.
Nice! It's exactly what I'm looking for.

TJS,
I call it the 'Joe Henderson' frequency because I can't point out exactly where in the spectrum it exactly lies. Sure between 800Hz and 2KHz but that's a wide interval. Easier to refer to Joe Henderson because he's one of the top players who IMO has got the most. No offense to him or his fans. I'm sure most tenors players playing on small opening HR mouthpieces have this 'bump' in the spectrum. Another one would be Mark Turner - which I worship - to a far less extent than JH...
As far as getting rid of the frequency, it's just lowering this aspect of the spectrum rather than killing it. My sound would be very unbalanced if I did so.
Do you see what I'm talking about?

[J.Max]

Hi all!

Though I'm still getting my stuff together on tenor, I'll get a Lamberson J6 soon. I currently play a Morgan 6C with Alex.Sup.Classic. #3.5.

Playability, projection, sound, reed friendliness is fine with the Morgan it's just that 1) I'm curious about those Lamberson and I get a good deal for the piece 2)I want to get rid of that "Joe Henderson" frequency coming from the Morgan. I'm sure that with proper embouchure adjustments I could get rid of most of it though. Don't be mistaken, the Morgan is a keeper and an incredible player especially for the price you can get those...

For information Morgan 6C : .090 (= Link6) / Lamberson J6 : .100 (= Link7)
I've played a STM Link 8* (.115) with no problem whatsoever. It's just that what Link would need refacing.

Any thoughts on what surprises I might experience with the Lamberson J6, good or bad?

A 6C? Interesting...I thought there was only one of those ever made, and it was a custom job for Tom Goodrick on this board! Did you have to special order that?

[magical pig]

A 6C? Interesting...I thought there was only one of those ever made, and it was a custom job for Tom Goodrick on this board! Did you have to special order that?

Actually I initially ordered a 8C thru junkdude but Mr.Morgan wouldn't do it. I think it has to do with his personal preferences considering the design of the piece. A .090 opening was the biggest he would do for a classical design mouthpiece. Talks by mail, ordering, receiving the mouthpiece took a big month and a half - it had to ship to France as well- and I did not pay extra $ for the custom opening. Thanks Mr.Morgan!!!

[Roger Aldridge]

Magical Pig,

As you might know, I'm a huge fan of the Morgan 6C. There are several things that you can do with a 6C to tweak your sound.

One obvious thing is to try different reed cuts and strengths. Alexander Classique reeds are superb and I highly recommend them. However, I've found that I get a darker and "thicker" sound with Legere regular cut reeds. Never the less, a #3.5 Classique should be an excellent reed for your mouthpiece and there may not be a reason to change to something else.

Most importantly, I'd suggest that you experiment with taking more of the mouthpiece beak into your mouth. It's been my experience that this -- more than almost anything else -- helps to really open up your sound and gives one a BIG robust sound. Taking in more of the mouthpiece opens up the oral cavity. In addition, by having your lower lip at the place on the reed where the reed separates from the facing curve of the mouthpiece (seen from the side) it enables the reed and mouthpiece to work together at an optimal level. It's my feeling that if you just do this you'll be absolutely amazed at the sound coming from your 6C.

A number of years ago Ralph Morgan encouraged me to take in more of the mouthpiece. It took me a period of time to experiment with my embouchure and find a playing position on the beak that felt comfortable to me. When I did, there was a night and day difference in my sound....and I already had a pretty big sound.

I cannot help but think if you take in more of the mouthpiece and open your oral cavity more that it will, in effect, match the big round chamber of the 6C and the mouthpiece will really come to life.

Good luck!

J Max -- Ralph Morgan will make a 6C as a special order. He first made one for me around 5-6 years ago on soprano. I was so totally blown away by it that I encouraged Ralph to make the 6C as part of his regular production line. Then, when I started focusing on the tenor I asked Ralph to make a 6C for this horn and I was equally impressed with it. It feels like it's "MY" mouthpiece on saxophone. Absolutely love it!

Roger

[pearcey1024]

How much did it cost to have Ralph make a 'special order' mouthpiece, and did it take any longer to recieve it than a standard order?

[magical pig]

As you might know, I'm a huge fan of the Morgan 6C. There are several things that you can do with a 6C to tweak your sound.
The idea to order such mouthpiece actually came after reading your posts!


I cannot help but think if you take in more of the mouthpiece and open your oral cavity more that it will, in effect, match the big round chamber of the 6C and the mouthpiece will really come to life.
I read a lot of things about taking more of the mouthpiece and I tried and succeed. I had to restrain myself from taking too much of the mouthpiece. I surely noticed that if you take more of the mouthpiece in your mouth, you have to open your mouth cavity if you don't want to have an horrible sound!!
It took me a period of time to experiment with my embouchure and find a playing position on the beak that felt comfortable to me.I'm still experimenting. How far is too far?

Don't be mistaken : I'm still in the process of perfecting my sound (check my soundclick page) and the Morgan is the best mouthpiece I've owned so far. Like I said in my initial post I will keep the Morgan 6C even if my preference goes to the Lamberson. I might even prefer the Morgan to the Lamberson. Getting the J6 is just a matter of opportunity (cheap deal), curiousity and bigger tip opening option. As I'm an impatient sort of guy, I was just wondering if any of you had insights regarding those two mouthpieces.


How much did it cost to have Ralph make a 'special order' mouthpiece, and did it take any longer to recieve it than a standard order?No extra charge, no extra time. Speak to junkdude about it and Ralph surely will be happy to make that for you. If he's on back order he might not give priority to the 6C... Roger will probably more helpful on that matter.

[Roger Aldridge]

Pearcy -- The 6C has the same cost as Ralph's other C mouthpieces. It doesn't take any longer to get one than placing an order for any other Morgan piece with Junk Dude. It's just a matter of your order getting through the line of orders at Ralph's shop that were placed before yours.

Musical Pig -- I, too, have been curious about the Lamberson J6. I'd suggest that you send a private message to Dr. G on the forum as he has both a Lamberson and a Morgan (similar to a 6C). He's in a perfect position to give you a comparison between the two pieces. Based on what he told me and what he knows of my tonal conception of the tenor, he felt the 6C (and it's .090 tip) is most likely the best match for me.

Regarding your embouchure, the best rule of thumb I think is to look at your mouthpiece from the side (with the reed and lig on) to see the point where the reed separates from the facing curve. That point is the ideal place on the reed for your lower lip. Then, place your top lip on the beak so it's in a vertical straight line with your lower lip. Anyway, that's what makes sense to me. Yes, it is possible to take in too much. But, if you use the facing curve of the mouthpiece as your point of reference you should be okay.

Speaking of mouthpieces, I'm in the process of getting a Walter Grabner K14 for my soprano clarinet. Walter tested it and thinks that I'll love it. Hopefully, it will arrive on Monday. I'll post a note on the forum about it after I've had a chance to give it a good test drive with my band. This mouthpiece has a smaller tip opening than my Morgan RM28. However, according to Walter it has an amazing level of projection and rich tonal qualities. This underscores what I've been saying on some other threads about how mouthpieces that have a particular kind of skillful design and facing craftsmanship don't need to have a really big tip opening in order to project strongly. I'm deeply imrpressed with how much power and projection Walter's LB bass clarinet mouthpieces has -- totally kicks b*** -- yet it's tip opening (around 1.78 mm) is smaller than many other bass clarinet mouthpieces on the market. I'd really like to know how he does it! Due to how impressed I am with the LB bass piece, I figured that I HAVE to go all the way and try a Grabner on soprano clarinet.

Roger

[magical pig]

Roger,

I sent a PM to DR G. I hope he will join us soon on this thread as I'd like him to share his insights to the community rather than only to me.

As far as mouth position is concerned, I've actually tried for a few days pulling the mouthpiece out a bit with great results. Before my mouth almost touched the end of the beak where it raises which may have been rather extreme.

Anyway thanks for the help.

[Tryptykon]

What size chamber is the 6C,and what is the baffle profile like ?

[magical pig]

What size chamber is the 6C,and what is the baffle profile like ? I'm not sure what you mean by chamber size but as Roger stated it's a big chambered type mouthpiece. The 6C has almost no baffle and the tip opening is .090. I guess it's the darkest of all Morgan tenor sax mouthpieces.
Mr. Morgan regular sizes for this model -which is supposed to be his classical model - are 2C & 3C respectively .065 & .075.
For more infos check out Morgan mouthpiece pages at junkdude.com (http://junkdude.com/saxes/ralph_morgan_mouthpieces.htm)

[J.Max]

Sorry Roger...I DID confuse you with Tom...must have been some residual brain damage...

[Roger Aldridge]

Besides the very large round chamber and small touch of rollover baffle, one thing that Ralph does that's more subtle in his design of the C is to make a lot of scratches inside the mouthpiece...along the length of the inside of the beak and in the chamber itself. He does this with all of his mouthpieces as a way to give an amount of resistance to the air stream and darken the sound. If you line up Morgan C, L, and M models you'll see that the C has the largest number of scratches, the L slightly less, and the M has the least amount...as the M is designed to have a brighter sound. The inside of Morgan clarinet mouthpieces are totally scratched up to have a greater amount of resistance...which is needed on clarinet. Other mouthpiece makers besides Ralph scratch the inside of their mouthpieces. My Grabner bass clarinet piece is all scratched up on the inside of the beak and on the sidewalls. If memory serves, I think it was mentioned that some of the Lamberson models have similar scratches inside the mouthpiece.

There are more subtle features of the C that are beyond my level of understanding. I suspect that Ralph does something tricky with the facing curve and side walls. But, I've never been able to get him to explain it. ha ha ha Clearly, Ralph does something that gives the C such a big and robust sound. Even though the C is supposed to be a "classical" mouthpiece, it's been my experience that it has a bigger, fatter, and more complex sound than the L and EL models.

Magical Pig -- If you're able to get your hands on a Lamberson please let us know what you think of it. As I mentioned, I've been very curious about them.

EZ_Sax -- Since you're familiar with the Morgan C and Lamberson J models (and you're an experienced mouthpiece guy), could you take us into these pieces and help to give us a better understanding of how these pieces play like they do? I'd be most grateful.

Roger

[magical pig]

I will

[Roger Aldridge]

PS, another thing I'm curious about is -- given the .10 difference between the 6C and J6 tips -- how we can make an apples-to-apples comparison between them. That is, it seems to me that relative to their facings the J6 would need a somewhat softer reed and the 6C would need a stiffer one. I cannot help but think that if I take a reed that plays beautifully on the 6C and try it on the J6 that the J6 would automatically seem darker and more resistant. Does that make sense?

Roger

[magical pig]

It absolutely makes sense but I had no problem with bad Alexander reeds. Their stiffness varies but they almost all play right out of the box. Here comes my point :with the Morgan 6C, Alexander Classique #3.5 are a bit too thick and 3s not enough so most of the time I end up switching between #3.5 D.C. & Classical. I love the sound of the classical but I need to get a stronger embouchure/air stream before feeling comfortable with the reed. The differences in shape of those models make the same strength classical a little harder than the DC.

Sooooo, I think I might end up using Classical 3s on the Lamberson, but you never know. Anyway it's not the reed or the mouthpiece but the combination of the two. Finding the right reed for a particular mouthpiece.
Before I post my impressions on those mouthpieces, I will have matched the Lamberson with the right reed. Might not even be Alexanders...
As a conclusion, there is no way to compare two mouthpieces on exactly the same level. But it can be close. If you play both and feel comfortable it means you reached a good setup profile and IYOO use the mouthpieces to their best.

I don't know if there's a way too compare them better than that... Tell me if you know.

Finally, I'll probably receive the mouthpiece at the end of october because the guy that selling it is gone on holidays. I'll give myself two weeks or so to get used to the Lamberson and I'll try to post a thorough and as objectve as possible review of my impressions. So stay tuned!!

[magical pig]

Well, I had quite a few money problems and have not been able to buy this mouthpiece. But when all's back to normal for me, I'll try and get another one.

Anyway, I recorded myself on MD yesterday. I was playing in a empty concert hall (300 people capacity) on electro backing tracks of mine played at full volume. I wanted to check the projection capacity of the Morgan 6C. The MD mic was placed at the back of the hall.
I couldn't have expected the results I heard on tape at home. Even with a loud PA system (and even if the music plated thru it was produced with compression, normalizing...) my sound kept the same tonal qualities than at home. Full, fat sound with lots of presence. When playing in the concert hall I had to push a bit in order to hear myself but not that much compared to when I practice. One amazing thing is that the sax sounded TOO LOUD compared with the music!!! I don't understand... it doesn't seem that loud when I practice. Roger, you were right, there's a mystery around this mouthpiece, a secret manufacturing process that's beyond understanding!
The only drawback is that the mouthpiece can't take that much air... This might be related to the small tip opening. But who needs to push tons of air thru a mouthpiece that needs so little to sing so loud!!
Just INCREDIBLE!!!!!!!!!!!