Can't flutter tongue...

[Konrad]

I've tried and tried. I can barely make the Mexican "rrr" sound without the mpc in my mouth. With it, it's impossible.

Any tips?

K

[Lambik]

I can't give you an answer, but actually I'm having the same problem.

It's quite hard to imitate a Spanish 'rrr' if you've never heard a Spaniard...

Is it the same as a (European) French 'rrr'?
Or is it pronounced like "Zorrrrrrro"? (which could make sense :))
(an rrr sound made with the tongue in the front of the mouth, nearly touching the teeth, and tickling on your palate?)

Cheers,
Jan

[Konrad]

Well, I live in Europe, speak Spanish, French, Polish, Czech, Slovak and Ukrainian, and I've never managed the "R" in any language.

I must have a really stiff tongue.

K

[Frank D]

I suggest you find a member of the opposite sex who has mastered the rolling "r" and ask for lessons ! :lol:

[John Laughter]

The following was taken from a prior posting. Maybe it will help some. Hope so;

I do not know when the flutter started. I have heard it done as early as the big band era. I feel certain that it started long before. I first became aware of it when I heard “Honky Tonk” part 2 by Bill Doggett . Clifford Scott used it in his 4th solo. And again on “Tequila” when Chuck Rio used it on the repeat of the main melody. It has been used on more recent pop hits such as “With Every Beat Of M y Heart “ by Taylor Dayne as played by Joel C. Peskin.

I would venture to say that it was probably developed by blues artist when they wanted to play a real “down and dirty” sounding solo. It really lends itself to that type of music. A combination of the growl, flutter tone and note bending will put you well on your way to playing some very suggestive sounds.

This technique gives the same effect as singing it front of a desk fan. It causes the tone to flutter by causing a separation in the airwave/tone.

I always suggest that you take the neck off the horn and learn by playing only the neck/mouthpiece then after you get the feel of it, attach it to the horn.

Before you play with the neck, see if you can make the sound that is similar to a small motorboat engine by blowing lightly and at the same time raising the tip of the tongue gently against the front portion of the roof of your mouth just behind the front teeth. Do not press the tongue into the roof. Just raise it enough to make a rapid flutter between the tip and the skin of the roof. The effect is also similar to the sound of a “cat purr.” However, there is no need to make a sound or hum anything while fluttering the tongue. If you can achieve this sound it will transfer to the m/p.

With the m/p in the mouth do the same thing as above but DO NOT TOUCH THE REED while the tongue flutters back and forth toward the roof of the mouth. The tip portion of the tongue ends up fluttering in the roof area in front of the tip of the m/p but if you touch the m/p it will stop the effect.

I hope this is enough to get you started. If you need more info, please send an email to JSAXL@aol.com

[Razzy]

Gotta listen to those spaniards! But I think it's really one of those things you just have to "get" at some point. I used to not be able to whistle or snap my fingers. About 8 years ago I picked up whistling, and about 5 years ago, snapping my fingers. Now I'm expert-ish at both! And I can't ever remember not being able to do the rolling R but that's probably because I didn't know I could do it until I tried! Now I can do a range of mouth-related activities that far surpass that of normal human. hehe. Like clicking the tongue without touching the roof of the mouth. Sounds much like a cartoon "gulp".

[Konrad]

Another question: Once you can flutter tongue, how do you keep your tongue back from the mouthpiece?

[John Laughter]

Once you can flutter tongue, how do you keep your tongue back from the mouthpiece?

Konrad, you would use the same muscle motion that is used when tonguing a note. When you play a series of quarter notes the muscle action that is required to pull the tongue back and forth is the same action that you use to keep the tongue from hitting the m/p. Once you master the motion of the tip of the tongue making the flutter, use the tongue muscle to draw the tongue back just enough so that the tongue does not touch the tip of m/p or reed.

Again, I suggest that you to use only the neck and m/p to get the technique going. I would also get the flutter sound down before using the m/p. Hope this does not sound confusing. Good luck!

[Konrad]

So with the neck, but without the mpc?

Huh?

I guess I could try that...

Thanks John.

(I hope I understand this right.)

K

[Biff]

or, if you're from canada, you can Rrroll up the Rrrrim to win!!! </end Tim Horton's Ploy> ( for all of you not canadains, Tim hortons is the best national coffee chain ever created. it's legendary up here in canada, and you can't stop at a stop light without seeing one!)



Biff

[John Laughter]

Konrad, you use the m/p connected to the neck. Just sometimes easier to get a feel for the technique w/o the horn attached.

[michaelbaird]

I can do it but I'm not really good at it. My Kohlert tenor seems to lend itself more to it than my VI does. I have better luck if I put less mouthpiece in my mouth.

[Jazzophone]

or, if you're from canada, you can Rrroll up the Rrrrim to win!!!

Hee hee. (Shouts from a fellow Canadian.) Are you sure you're not being paid by them or something? ha. BTW, there are more Tim Hortons in Halifax than I think Starbucks in Vancouver even, which is nuts.

Back to the actual topic - listen to people who CAN roll their R's, just work on trying to emulate it (it's occasionally difficult to get but once you do you'll always know how to do it after that) - and yeah, just use the mp and the neck first, that's how I learned to do it. Easiest way is to start without anything in your mouth and once you get it, put the mp in and keep going ... once you know what it's supposed to be like you'll be able to do it right off the bat. :)

good luck.

[smitty]

I have the solution for our poor friend who wants to flutter tongue. First it has nothing to do with rolling R's. this I know because I am a fluent spanish speaker, but lack the ability to roll R's. However, I did learn to Fluttertongue long before I learned any Spanish. the key is this: go to the bathroom, get a bottle of listerine or whatever mouthwash you use. Now take a swig and start gargling. hum a little to if you wish. Now spit that nasty stuff out of your newly dissinfected mouth and insert your mouthpiece ( already on the sax and ready to play) in your mouth and start gargling. its as easy as that.

[Dog Pants]

Smitty is right on the money! Seriously, if you have trouble with the flutter just gargle water, scotch, beer or whatever until you start to get the hang of it at the back of your tongue. This will be a little too far back on the tongue for the horn effect but it will get you started. I'm of Scots/Irish descent so rolling R's was just something you heard the relatives do and you picked it up kinda easy. What gets you good at it, and it's probably the only thing I do really well and easily on the horn, :lol: is once you can do it a little,play with your son, nephew or whatever and do motorbike sounds. Raise and lower the tone like a bike going up through the gears. You'll notice that the sensation of where you "feel" the flutter on your tongue will move from the back of the tongue, as in a gargle, up towards the tip. The speed of the flutter will increase too. Thentry imitating a big block V8 and any other motor you fancy. When I was a wee lad, every kid, and I mean every kid, could imitate any make of car or motorcyle. I know this sounds a little childish but your kids will enjoy playing the game with you and by learning to control the speed and "point on the tongue" of the flutter, from way down in the throat all the way to the tip, you'll be able to control the effect rather than be stuck with a "one flutter fits all" effect. You'll also answer your question about "how do I flutter without hitting the reed?" There are some who say that the ability to flutter is a genetic thang and some can, some can't. That may or may not be true but the human oral tract is an amazingly flexible bit of kit and as I said earlier, every kid could do this when I was a lad. You'll find a way that works for you and it's not a lifetime of work to do it either. I'd say a fortnight tops and you are on your way. Good luck. Vrrrrrrrrrrrooooooooooooooooooom :D

[Ian]

Gargling is to me a 'throat flutter', not a tonguing process?! :lol:

For those unable to flutter the tongue: Try this - sound 'S', very long, loud, with lots of forceful air. now while doing that , drag the tongue backwards, with the tip still directed upwards onto the palate. I think many folk will find that suddenly a spot is reached where the tip of the tongue will begin to flutter. Its easier to do with lots of air, but I think you may find that once achieved a couple of times, it becomes very easy to do with very little air. the muscle tone in the toungue determines how much air is needed. Corresponds to JL noting that the fluttering tongue is above and back from the tip of the mpce, where contact would immediately stop the fluttering.

Having said that: I think your mother tongue has a lot to do with the ease of acquiring this skill. In South Africa we have Afrikaans, a language with lots of fairly guttural rolled r's. My grandfather, English, arrived in SA in his 30's and was still unable to 'flutter tongue' r's when he died 50 years later. Not sure how hard he tried though!

[John Laughter]

Konrad, check this web page that was recently posted on another area;

http://www.jazz-o-matic.com/Default.aspx?tabid=38

Click on "Flutter Tongue & Growling - by Bob Bartosik"

[KMR]

Sorry to come in off-topic, but I am hoping that IAN from SOUTH AFRICA will come back here and see my post.

Ian you gave me some helpful advice last summer about Cubital Tunnel, and I have reposted about this in Sax Lifestyle.

Would you be able to offer any further advice.

Thanks, and sorry again to interupt, but I couldnt think of any way to contact Ian

[Jazzer]

John Laughter,

I am working on my flutter tounge and I can create the effect up to about F2 but not much higher. I have an overbite and can't quite keep my embouchre correct to allow the higher notes out. I am assuming this is not normal?

I listened to Shotgun and noticed Junior Walker was doing a flutter tounge on Eb3. Is this unusually hard or am I just missing something?

Thanks!

David

[JL]

It is definitely more difficult in the high register, but not impossible.

[Dog Pants]

I agree John. It does get more difficult at the extremes of the horn. When you go upstairs, the tendency is to speed up the flutter. Even Junior Walker is prone to this. All arguments about what constitutes a throat gargle and what constitutes a tonge flutter aside, practice the "flutter" way back in your throat and then bring it up and forward to the tip of your tongue. You wont really use the very tip of your tongue to flutter, (maybe you will :) ) but the exercise will help you control the flutter to the point where you can keep it strong and constant on the higher notes. Then, just to challenge yourself try a flutter on your low Bb and see how slow you can do it. I've given an easy way to practice this above. Sure it sounds crazy but if you're willing to think outside the square, you'll find it works a charm. :wink:

[John Laughter]

Jazzer, I am sorry that I did not get an email about your last question but you have already received good advice.

About the overbite, I am not sure about that. It may create a unique challenge but again, it is basically in the tongue so I feel confident that if you can do the effect in any of the notes of the left hand that you will be able to do the effect with the palm keys.

Let us know how it works out for you.

[Jazzer]

Thanks all for the advice! I am still not able to be successful. Here is what I am noticing. When I player the higher notes, it seems like I don't have any room for my tounge to flutter. As soon as I try to adjust to allow that to happen, I can no longer procduce the note, it usually drops an octave. I can flutter on a Low Bb but once I reach above F2, I am out of luck.

Any other ideas?

[saxophrenic]

Jazzer,
And John Laughter -- I'm pretty sure flutter tonguing goes way back before Tequila. It's probably from the speakeasy days. I'm old enough to have seen burlesque when I was a young sailor. :shock: :shock:

The old strip clubs used to have small combos and flutter tonguing was much in evidence along with lots of trombone glissando (remember "the Stripper").

Guess some of you cats are too young to remember all this. :P :P

[Jazzer]

Well, I am not ashamed to say that I am a relative pup!

[John Laughter]

saxophrenic


And John Laughter -- I'm pretty sure flutter tonguing goes way back before Tequila. It's probably from the speakeasy days. I'm old enough to have seen burlesque when I was a young sailor

I agree with you saxophrenic. When you think about some of the back alley places and strip joints (some of which I played in my younger days), it is easy to understand where the flutter, and especially the growl may have originated. It does not take a lot of imagination to see the girl on the floor with the sax player walking the bar late at night and the drummer’s funky backbeat getting everybody excited!

I also find that the flutter still causes some of the same effect (w/o the girl of course : ) ) to the dancers on the floor when you get next to them and play a driving blues/rock solo with this effect. It has stood the test of time!

[saxophrenic]

Right you are John, just in case we forget, the old reptilian brain responds to the mating dance :twisted: .
We are the pipers and the dance keeps the world well populated.

There is much in the statement that the sax is sexy! :twisted: :twisted:

[John Laughter]

Just one more of the many reasons why I enjoy rock/R&B/funky music!

[danodownunder]

Cunninglingus

[danodownunder]

sorry I think thats one too many n's. but it do help we know this downunder even way downunder.

[Dog Pants]

You're on your own there Dan. There's ladies on this forum. :oops:

[danodownunder]

Gee whizz