Problems With The Octave Key..

[orions_belt27]

Hi everyone,

i've a problem here. it's with the octave key. Whenever i finger a middle D(fingers R 1,2,3 and L 1,2,3 closed), and then when i press the octave key, it gives me an instant high D response. However, the problem is when i depress the octave key again, the high D will remain for a while before it sounds the lower D. eh.. get wat i mean?

and i noticed for middle keys C, B, A, G, F, E, D.. it's alot easier to jump an octave with C (maybe because it's a higher note??) than with the lower extremes, E or (more so) D.

Can someone please help me figure out how i can get the instant high D to middle D response?

i understand dat it's to do with the embouchure tension and maybe throat position or sumthin. i've tried adjusting but i'm still a long way behind achieving a descent, distinct shift.

any help will be much appreciated thank you :)

ben~

[Gandalfe]

How long have you been playin?

What kind of sax are playin and how old is it?

What mouthpiece, size and what reed and size are you using?

[Gordon (NZ)]

It could be because of dozens of different possible problems with the instrument, or just your inexperience as a player, or the poor quality of the instrument etc, or a combination of the above...... Too many possibilities for reasonable diagnosis through a forum.

Get the instrument checked first.

Then if it persists, get an experienced teachrer who is an accomplished player, even just for a lesson or two.

[orions_belt27]

How long have you been playin?

What kind of sax are playin and how old is it?

What mouthpiece, size and what reed and size are you using?

i've been playin only a few weeks, 3-4 actually. I'm using a yamaha YAS 82-Z sax.
I'm using the 4C mouthpiece dat comes with it and also traditional vandoren strength 2 reeds.


It could be because of dozens of different possible problems with the instrument, or just your inexperience as a player, or the poor quality of the instrument etc, or a combination of the above...... Too many possibilities for reasonable diagnosis through a forum.

Perhaps it's really inexperience? i doubt it's poor quality of the instrument. If so, wat are the ways i can overcome this problem?

sorry if my topic title was misleading. i didnt mean dat there was any technical problem with the octave key. the problem is gettin a quick instant response from a high D to middle D or middle D to low D. it holds it's pitch there even after i depress the octave key to bring the key down an octave.

thanx~
ben :)

[MS]

Ben, you're doing well for 3-4 weeks just to be able to play all the D's.
With more experience, you'll find that it's a combination of enough steady air, embouchure grip(tension) and "voicing"-which is the position of your oral cavity- tongue - and vocal tract.

Gordon is right. Lot of possible soultions to your problem.

Here are some things to consider.

1) the 4C mps is not very open. If you need a little more blowing resistance for control, try 1/2 to 1 size harder reed.

2) the high D. you're fingering with just the D3 palm key?

3) going from plam key D3 to D2 (6 fingers plus octave key) - holes must close exactly together - if one finger is late (especially left hand 3rd finger) you'll most likely get an A2 of possibly a D3 (both overtones of the low D1 fingering.

4) voicing sure helps when going from D2 to D1. Finger F1 (no octave key) and play F2. Alternate between the two just by changing your tongue position. Then finger E1 and play E2 - go back and forth several times without using the octave key. Do the same with G1 and G2. Then try the same thing with D's. Finger D1 and play D2. Go back and forth between D1 and D2 several times not using the octave key.

Some slight difference in your body will be noticable between the notes when you are successful. Memorize that difference. Review the above exercise every day for several days/weeks until those slight differences are habit Things will work well when those habits that work become muscle memory. Good luck and have fun. :D

[orions_belt27]

um okie thanx dave and gordon. i'll get the sax checked :)

MS:

2) the high D. you're fingering with just the D3 palm key?


i'm fingering D with all 6 fingers, both my index, middle and ring fingers on both hands (w/o octave key). i suppose that's the low D? okie plus octave key is wat u call D2, i call it middle D, correct me if i'm wrong.


4) voicing sure helps when going from D2 to D1..... Alternate between the two just by changing your tongue position.... Finger D1 and play D2. Go back and forth between D1 and D2 several times not using the octave key.

ok i'll try the exercises and see wat results after dat. but wat should my tongue position be in D1 and D2 respectively? all these w/o the use of octave key of cos. and wat happens if i use the octave key? does my tongue position differ in any way compared to when i voice the note w/o the octave key?

i notice it's alot easier to play D2 than D1..
i'll report on the progress, if there's any hahaha :lol: thanks alot :)

ben

[Gordon (NZ)]

If D2 is significantly easier than D1 then the instrumnet has a leak, or more likely, many leaks. This is the FIRST problem to get right.

Be aware that because D2 is a harmonic or D1, you cannot rely on just closing the octave vent to go from D2 to D1. MOST of the change, especially when slurring, is effected through appropriate embouchure and breath pressure (changes), which is why I suggested you need a teacher, even briefly.

There is nothing too much wrong with a 4C mouthpiece for beginner. Getting bogged down with mouthpiece changes is band-aid stuff. Certain mouthpieces will favour certain notes a little, but do not deal with your underlying problem(s).

[MS]

We seem to have gotten in the habit on this forum of calling the lowest octave notes 1 (such as D1, the second octave notes 2 (as in D2), the third octave 3 (as in D3) and so on.

On the opening page of the forum are several articles by Paul Coats -The Beginners corner. You might find some of that information helpful. Particularly read the exercise for mouthpiece alone (for alto A=880). This will get your air moving steady, embochure tension in the ball park, and your tongue is appropriate starting position. Players differ as to what they do for "voicing". THis may change/adapt as you change from different mouthpieces. You might start with a voicing of vowel sound(English alphabet) E (as in "we"). Other English alphabet vowels would be A (as in "say"), i (as in "high"), and O (as in "low").

If you whistle a song, notice that pitch changes are made by your tongue moving around. You can effect tone and response in different saxoophone registers in a similar way.

For the mouthpiece exercise, try starting with the" E " (as in "we") voicing and experiment from there. Very important to keep air pressure and speed controled and constant as you try the vowel sound comparison.

OK - low D=D1, middle D=D2. are you playing a higher D (or D3)? If so, what fingering do you use?

For the tongue position for D1 and D2, you need to experiment.

From "voicing" by Don Sinta
:
........."Voicing refers to an awareness and control of the muscles and soft flexible tissue in the oral cavity and vocal tract.".
......"Playing the saxophone requires change in the configuration of our mouth, tongue, and throat which contributes directly to control over range, intonation, and dynamics. Further, our personalized timbres are greatly influenced by how we manipulate this tract to resonate each note."........

On the mouthpiece alone:

....."While blowing air, attempt to deliberately move the tongue to different positions in the mouth. (ex: forward; backward; sideways; arch in center, front, back; curled up or down)"..............

My suggestions may be an over-kill of information. Most of this will take care of itself as you play for a year or more. As you play more/longer, you'll figure out how to make the D1 to D2 switch and it will get easier for you.

[MS]

I agree with Gordon's advice. Get your horn checked first. :D

[orions_belt27]

Gordon, MS,

I've tried the voicing thinghy and played around with tongue position, a much looser embouchure and opening up my throat alot more than usual and really, it has made much significant improvement in gettin out the low Bb, C and D etc~

I'm still gonna have the instrument checked through, but ever since i've noticed the significant change, i'm tryin to build mroe control over those muscles and implant dat in my memory. it's a real confidense booster~ haha :lol:

thanx alot for the help and advice you guys~

regards,
ben :)

[MS]

Ben - good luck to you and have fun! :D

[Gordon (NZ)]

If you whistle a song, notice that pitch changes are made by your tongue moving around. You can effect tone and response in different saxophone registers in a similar way.


I know that this is a very popularly held concept, but a whistle inside the mouth, where the pitch is determined by the size of the cavity, is not the same as a sax, where the pitch is determined primarily by an interaction between the reed and the shape of the air column in the sax.

I tend to think that the changes claimed by moving the tongue, are actually changes made by imperceptible associated changes air pressure air speed, and especially lip tension on the reed. When I honestly move my tongue alone, I get no change.

*ducks for cover!*

[MS]

Gordon - I think both things happen. I believe there is a perceptable change in air speed and pressure, caused by different cavity configurations IF the air speed muscles were to remain constant. Probably of a reverse funnel nature, with the small end of the funnel (mouthpiece entry) remaining more or less constant.

I'm not saying that the saxophone HAS to be played this way, but many players do, knowingly perceptable or not. In my opinion voicing develpoment happens as one the strong results of doing long tones, and certainly of doing the Rascher overtone exercises in preparation of developing the altissimo register.

Total control and changes only with the embouchure jaw in my thinking would be analagous to making register changes on the flute ONLY by changing the size of the embouchure appature (disregarding the possibility of changes in air direction splitting on the flute embouchure hole wall edge, and air speed).

I've heard garden hose nozzle arguments, but I think the proportional change in apature size is much greater on the garden hose nozzel than is usable on an instrument embouchure.

I'm trying to get back some bassoon chops, and there's an area in the bassoon range (bass clef top line A to the D above) that is done mostly with voicing/air speed/embouchure grip. (some bassoons don't have the "flick" key.)

THe second register of the flute from E2 to C#3 is done by air direction/speed/voicing. The clarinet register from C2 to C3 can be pretty un-flattering without some special attention to embouchure/air/voicing.

I may be wrong, but I certainly approach playing all these instruments with voicing as a part of how I can get these instruments to work when doubling. If I played only one of these instruments (and avoided the saxophone altissimo register if it were saxophone) I would probably just have developed the necessary voicings as a by-product of years of long tone practice and not have made reference to "voicing".

On saxophone I play mostly on round chambered mps, and how I configure the oral cavity and vocal tract certainly effects how the air travels. And through those voicings directly effects the air speed and pressure, which I believe has some effect on which harmonics in the tone quality are babanced, in addition to the shape of the cavity may include that cavity's use as a Helmholtz Resonator, which can increase the tones volume and effieicncy as much as 50%. All this in combination with the possibility of the embochure cushion to selectively dampen or allow different reed harmonic partials -for me can allow differences in tone quality and balance.

Obviously perceptable to the listener- probably not much. Obvious to mer- yes and to some listeners who instinctly (or learn) to listen to tonal subtilities.

I can only relate what I think and believe. I reserve the right to be wrong. :D

*smiles at Gordon's persuit of common sense truth*

[Gordon (NZ)]

I agree with what you say, providing you leave out the "voicing".

I believe voicing to be the process of getting all RELEVANT factors ideal for each given note.

For flute I am adamant from experience and (my perception of) logic, that mouth cavity is irrelevant unless there is introduction of a constriction severe enough to produce turbulence or the air as it meets the lips.

Voicing for singing would definitely involve the Helmholtz resonator effects of nasal and oral cavities, because the cavities all exist between the reed and the listener. Indeed these cavities have the same function as shape of the air column of woodwind instruments. I rather think that these singing concepts of voicing have been planted upon the rather gullible woodwind players.

For sax/clarinet I have doubts. There could be a Helmholtz resonator influence but I believe it to be insignificant. I am willing to accept a POSSIBLE exception for the altissimo notes, where the relevance of the air column in the instrument decreases.

Even learned, experienced players often have little idea of the details of what their bodies are actually doing, and I believe that for almost every player, when the player changes the oral cavity he will also make associated changes to the factors which definitely ARE relevant - air pressure, and lip pressure and its distribution.

One valid argument is that if any prop, such as the notion of changing oral cavity, produces desirable associated changes for a given player, then it is valid. However this is some distance from accepting a psycho-physiological prop as a fundamental truth, as seems to frequently happen in the world of playing music.

You wrote, "And through those voicings directly effects the air speed and pressure" I would suggest that the very well established, understood, and mathematically analysed concepts of fluid flow in engineering tell us that this is completely wrong. (That is, unless you have introduced turbulence, which for such a slow air flow, would need a very severe constriction in the throat or elsewhere - a constriction that players just don't do. This would be a completely separate issue from resonance shape.) Air speed and pressure are determined by the pressure exerted by abdominal and intercostal muscles, the size (and variation during vibration) of the constriction between the reed and mouthpiece, and back pressure from the instrument. I don't think I have left anything out.

However my mind is still open to sound arguments, and especially to rigorously controlled experimental testing of such concepts, which is entirely possible and may well have been done.

It is interesting to chat about.

[MS]

1) Do sound waves travel only in the direction that air is going?
I can whistle in the normal manner and achieve a certain decibel volume. I can suck air in and achieve the same decibel volume - the whistle sound is just as loud. If this is true, then I don't see where the Hemholtz resonator effect is negated because of the reed/mouthpiece placement after the oral cavity/nasal passages/vocal tract. Strings on any acoustic instrument ( the body functioning as a resonator) are not inside the instrument. Strings stretched on a board can hardly be heard other than by electronic pick-up for amplification.

I can accept your vision of voicing being all the somponent parts coming together to make a particular note sound it's best and in texture and presence equivalent to it's neighbors.

2) Balanced circuit. I suspect that someone smarter than I could probably design either and electronic balanced circuit or a mechanical one. The resistances of horn, mouthpiece, reed, ligature, neck +player would produce product A- a balanced circuit. Good tone, in tune, musical, decibel volume X. Change the resistence balance in any of the components-player B likes a different balance and you produce product B - a balanced circuit. Good tone, in tune, musical, decibel volume Y.

I think to some extent the players physical characteristics- lung capacity (liters), blowing pressure and speed will effect players choice of equipment. Arnold Jacobs has already developed equipment to measure the above.

I can't help but think that if you have air flow passing through a small apature, and a wider tunnel passage before that apature, with wind flowing through that passage at Z speed, that a change in the diameter of the tunnel or a reconfiguration shape of that passage would effect the pressure and possibly the speed of that air flow. At least the possibility of turbulance at various places must exist, and possibly effect what emerges from the outside of the apature.

I'm not sure what you mean by turbulance as applied to wind instrument playing, so I may not have used the term correctly.

On flute if I put a hump in my tongue near the back (tongue like a ski ramp, I can get a wider more resonant sound. If I move the hump more to the middle, I can get a more hau;ghty sound, and if I put the hump near the front- I can get a brighter/clearer sound with more sizzle.
Am I the only one in the world who can do this? (Besides one of my flute teachers).

If you accept that sound waves travel in all directions - with and against windy air, then the body cavities can effect tone via the Hemholtz Resonator notion.

Gordon, you make me think too much!

[Gordon (NZ)]

I accept what you say about the whistling.

I accept that this resonator (at quite a high pitch) may have some relevance for the highest notes on a sax (altissimo) but it doesn't seem too relevant for resonation of the first two octaves of an alto or tenor. For a resonator to resonate, it must be tuned to the appropriate frequency. - the mouth cavity seems to have quite a high natural frequency.

I also wonder about its relevance RELATIVE to the primary sound sources, the reed and the air in the sax.

I would like to know more about whistling. Fascinating instrument. I have just tried whistling into various sizes of mug. Interesting effects - even two tones, out of tune, but I cannot get an effect that ADDS to my whistling. The effects seem to be destructive. i'm not sure how relevant this is to the Helmholtz resonator in the mouth linked to the air column in the sax.

I'm not sure that string instruments have much acoustic relevance.

I agree that different players may well aim for different sounds, and use different means to achieve it, as per your circuit analogy, but I don't see the relevance of that to whether or not tongue position helps to bring a D2 down to D1.

Re the air speed. Yes, a narrower tunnel through the mouth will increase air speed through the mouth, but I was only thinking about air speed and pressure past the reed. A miscommunication here. I cannot see the rather slow air-speed in the mouth has much relevance - but there is heaps I don't know!

Turbulence: blow into your palm with a flute embouchure. Raise the tongue in the mouth. It is very obvious when turbulence begins because the speed at your palm suddenly decreases, and the wind sound gets louder. Now that requires the tongue to close the 'tunnel' to a height of 1 or 2 mm. I don't think players play like that, although it has enormous significance for clarity of attack for a flute player when tonguing.

Turbulence: During 'laminar flow, all particle of air move in unison, with parallel motion. During 'turbulent' flow they are moving in random sort of system of many whirlpools. Think of rivers and rapids. Turbulence occurs quite suddenly at a certain point when a tube is increasingly constricted. A good example is when a garden hose is kinked and the flow suddenly decreases and becomes very noisy.

Re moving the 'hump' of your tongue. What can I say. It does not work for me! Are you sure you are not changing other factors, like a minute jaw movement, or change in air pressure, or lips? After all, we have learnt to subconsciously link movements of these parts to operate together, in our speech patterns.

MS, you make me so conscious of how much I don't know. A shame that this discussion does not have an appropriate thread heading.

[MS]

Thanks for your thoughtful reply.
As far as the resonator idea goes, consider that the oral cavity and vocal tract are connected to the lungs. My feeling when I play is if I get the whole air passage in the right configuration, I get a reinforcement of the note I'm playing. This is something that both Don Sinta and Larry Teal taught when I took sax lessons from them. I don't have my copy of the Teal book handy, but I seem to recall a diagram relative to not constricting the throat. In his book, Teal doesn't refer to "voicing", nor Hemholtz Resonator, but in my mind that is what he is describing.

I believe that each player works out a balance (as I mentioned before regarding circuitry) that allows him/her to function for the work they do, probably subconsciously. If they knew the intricies the body was capable of, it would be startling- perhaps even mind boggling.

I think common usage of terns is changing (consider our discussion of the diaphragm three or four years ago), hopefully going to a more informed accuracy.

As far as frequencies the single reed mouthpiece/reed combination is capable of vibrating much higher frequency than necessary for the notes produced on those instruments. The instrument seems to select the range needed to produce the standing wave necessary in the instrument because of the shape and size of the instrument tube. From previous threads discussing the work of Benade, and a doctoral thesis by Gary Scavone (which is too complicated for me to follow much of it), a fair amount of documented work is being done to shed light on how these things work. It will take some time for this information to filter down through the teachers to become practical knowledge (if ever).

Most of this stuff is not necessary to produce a good player, but I personally find it interesting, and adapt what works and is understandable to students in my teaching.

For teaching, the two most important things that have come out of these discussions is control of the abdominal/intercostal muscles and unrestricted filling of the lungs (balanced body position). Then a conncetion of the whole breathing aparatus to the instrument. The more control of the breathing aparatus, the less raw muscle work that has to be done by the embouchure. Then we can talk about a more relaxed and cushioned embouchure "grip", if that's the sound a player is going for.

Enjoyable. :D

[MS]

Introduction to saxophone acoustics

http://ww.phys.unsw.au/~jw/saxacoustics.html

Somewhere along the way last year, this link was provided by Paul Coats as a byproduct of one of his investigations. It is 16 pages of good information in layman's terms of how the saxophone works.

On the site is also included Flutes, Shakuhachi, Clarinet, Didjeridu, Violin, Guitar, Speech, Cochlear.

It's the University of New South Wales in Sydney, Australia- Physics dept.

I wonder if medical technology is to the point where some type of scan or x-ray scan might provide relevant information about what the tongue and oral cavity does while playing? Anyone know?

[Razzy]

Even after 1 year of intense study, after 5 years of straightup playing, I still have more trouble slurring from D2 to D1 than I do from any other note to its lower octave. It has to do with harmonics, that's all I know for sure though.

The Yamaha 4C is ok to begin with but I certainly wouldn't study seriously on it. A selmer C* or D or a Meyer 5 or 6 will serve much better as a lifetime piece to play. The high notes come out much easier and the quality is more consistent. Yamaha 4C's are stock with most horns; typically, stock mouthpieces are of low-grade quality. You will definitely have a better time on a more high quality, middle of the road mouthpiece.

[MS]

Ben, how are things going?

[orions_belt27]

okie, i had the sax checked and sure enough, there were leaks. small ones though but they still cause big problems. had dat fixed. right now i can get basically all the low notes right down to C alot more easily.

but the funny thing rite now is dat the low Bb and low B seem harder than before to achieve. i keep blowin the harmonic notes.. i tried voicing the Bb but not to much avail..

i'm happy dat i can achieve the lower register with much more ease overall, except for the B and Bb.

oh, btw do you have probs with the left rocker table? i find the key which is used to play the low B extremely hard to press down. my pinky hurts alot after playin dat key. it's not supposed to have dat high a tension yea?

[MS]

Yes, that left hand table of keys is tricky. Try curving your little finger so that it squarely pushes down only one of the four keys at a time. That's one screwey ting about saxophone design: the smallest fingers have to play the biggest and heaviest keys.

If your low Bb and B are still difficult, could still be some leaks down there. I know that if I have any pads replaced, I'll usually take the horn backa week later for a final check after the new pad (s) have stabalized.

There's one other adjustment that might be off a little. If you play G#1 (left hand three fingers and G# table key) and close any of your right hand keys - any one of those keys should automatically close the G# key (called articulated G#) If the right hand keys don't close the G# key completely, then the repairman needs to do a little more adjustment. Some horns have a little screw on an arm that is attached to the RH F key for adjustment. Some horns have a cork glued on the arm off the F key. The G# key will open (or leak) when you press any of the Left hand table keys.

The table keys are going to have more tension that some of the other keys (especially the low C#) but hopefully not enough to make your finger hurt. Some of the modern horns really aren't bad. Ask the repairman if he can relax the springs a little on those keys.

Leaks, even small ones , can really make a difference in how your sax plays. Find the best repairman you can. Good luck and keep us posted.

[orions_belt27]

Yeah i do agree bout the screwy bit.. they make the most underated fingers do the most tricky bits.. haha~

and yea, ok latest update.. of some stroke of almighty luck or fortune, i've been able to bring out the low B and Bb strong and very clean indeed! i tried playin them soft to loud and loud to soft again and i just went up and down, goin back and forth between the two and they sound pretty gd!

i dunno man, maybe it's a stroke of good form dat i'm in currently~ haha but anyway, i played those low keys with a light touch, and the notes sounded so i guess leakage isnt the problem there. it's just me, or the weather..



There's one other adjustment that might be off a little. If you play G#1 (left hand three fingers and G# table key) and close any of your right hand keys - any one of those keys should automatically close the G# key (called articulated G#) If the right hand keys don't close the G# key completely, then the repairman needs to do a little more adjustment. Some horns have a little screw on an arm that is attached to the RH F key for adjustment. Some horns have a cork glued on the arm off the F key. The G# key will open (or leak) when you press any of the Left hand table keys.


I tried this on saturday with my instructor durin lesson and the articulated G# works good~


The table keys are going to have more tension that some of the other keys (especially the low C#)...

serious? The key with a hellotta tension on my sax is the low B! it's crazy man! i'd better start liftin weights with my left pinky.. :P

i think i got to get a little of the tension off dat key...

[MS]

Glad things are working better for you! Good luck and have fun. :D

[Razzy]

And for me it's low C# that has the most tension. Just have a tech or teacher with tech abilities look it over and see what they can do to loosen things up for you.

[orions_belt27]

yea~ i'll do just dat when i see the tech again, on saturday :) thanx guys~ and gd luck to u too MS :)

[orions_belt27]

oh darn really.. i just got more problems on hand now..

i just went out and bought some long wire, a bulb and bulb holder and created my very own leak light. It worked.. well not too bad at all, 10 leaks... :)

9 were slight leaks, 1 was pretty obviously bad, but they all add up to one major problem. all leaks came from the open tone holes. practically all the pads in the lower register were leaky.

perhaps dat's y i could get the low Bb and B notes to sound occasionally but not each time. i tended to press the keys much harder when i got nervous and dat shut the tone holes up nicely.

[Djt2005]

Just don't use the octave key. It's not hard to play high without it.