Ralph Morgan Advice

[Nefertiti]

Ok guys. I talked to Ralph a couple of weeks ago. He was refacing a piece for me. He said that the reeds I was using on a .110 opening were to hard and that I wasn't taking in enough mouthpiece and was probably biting. I've never heard that before so it got me thinking. I play 3 1/2 reeds on all my tenor pieces. Always have. A few are too hard but for the most part they work out great. I tried taking in more mouthpiece and moving down to a 3 for the last couple of days and I can't do it. It feels like I'm playing on a wet noodle. I can't get the volume I like out of a softer reed and the tone is not as hearty and thick as I like. I play on 2 pieces that are .120 and I can't even play 3's on them. Am I doing something wrong here. I'm trying a Guardala Studio and read that Brecker uses 2-21/2 as do some other artists. I tried it with a bunch of 3's last night . Took in more mouthpiece and tried to make it work. No way! How do you guys do it. Is there something I'm missing here. Ralph seemed pretty insistent that I must be biting although I don't feel like I am. I'm comfortable with the sound I get and my playing style I'm just trying to explore if I can improve someway. My upper teeth sit exactly 1/2 an inch from the tip.. By the way Ralph is an amazing guy to talk to. He knows more about saxophones and mouthpieces than anyone I ever talked to. Let me know what you think. thanks

[Balladeer]

Last summer I tried the mouthpiece exercise and ever since I keep working on taking more mouthpiece. When I do the mpc exercise, I try using more or less mpc and using different angles of entry into my mouth. I listen for in-tune concert G (tenor) and a sound that is not pinched. With the ESP, I started putting my top teeth near the far back of the black tooth guard and angling the the mouthpiece down more. To do this I cannot hold the tenor out in front of me when I play. With my NY Link 7 the right spot is not quite as much piece as with the ESP and the Link seems to sound better with a different angle (more out front).

I just got a used SGI 7*. This is an entirely different animal. The SGI seems to hit pitch with only as much in my mouth as I have when playing alto.

The mpc exercise has made me realize that I may need to re-train my alto embouchure 32 years after graduating from music school. Don't golf pro's go through the same thing changing their swing after years of successful pro playing?

[Balladeer]

Nefertiti:
After I wrote the response, above, I thought about your great tone on those sound clips. I don't believe you could have a sound that full up and down the horn unless you were taking the right amount of mouthpiece, had a good embouchure, and had excellent air-support. When I listen to your playing samples, I only hear great tone that is all yours. I think you should keep doing what you're doing.

[BATMAN]

Nefertiti---I thought your sound was fine from the clips I heard. Now, I may not be Ralph Morgan, but I don't agree at all that one size fits all. I don't know how you play, but it sounds like it is working for you. It sounds like you are not biting, and that your embouchure is set.

If Ralph heard about the way I play, he'd have a fit! I use .100-.110 (depending on baffle, sometimes more) and use Hemke #4s. I also use double lip and cannot bite, or it will kill my chops! I take in enough mpc to let the reed vibrate.

As far as getting volume out of a soft setup, it requires a fairly large mpc and a little more emphasis on air support. For me, this gives a very large sound, but it does not have the meatiness of the harder setup with smaller mpcs. I used to play like this to try and get that Sonny Rollins sound, so I tended to play .120-.130 with a Hemke #3 or 2.5.

It is my opinion that you do whatever works for you. Some other people that use hard reeds are my two teachers. One plays a Guardala Branford (.118) with Hemke #4s. and another plays a custom Guardala mpc (.115) with RJS 4M. I play a Hollywood Dukoff (.100) with Hemke 4's. Branford Marsalis plays his mpc with Hemke 4's. I doubt anyone could tell Branford he's playing "wrong". It all depends on the sound you like. Stan Getz used #4 Vandorens on his medium mpc....don't tell me that his sound was not good.

And another thought on soft reed users. Keep in mind the technology factor. That huge sound you hear is sometimes not what it truly is. To cite two extreme cases, take Joe Henderson and Mike Brecker. The former used medium reeds and a SMALL mpc and the latter uses soft reeds on a medium mpc. Ever hear them un-mic'd? Not a really huge sound at all, at least not what you hear on the recordings. Many physical factors e.g. Brecker's neck injury contribute to the setups. This is not to say ALL people who use soft reeds have small sounds, but I'm just saying that you should take into account the mic factor. For example, I recently saw the Bob Mintzer Big Band and one thing I noticed was that Bob had a small sound and used the mic to his advantage. He played very close and let it do the work. In contrast, I like to use NO mic when playing in a big band, or at the very least stay a little farther away from the mic, so my sound remains natural.

whew! I talk too much!

and yes, this is BATMAN from the old forum, AKA "lodog00 AKA BATMAN". LOL :D

[Roger Aldridge]

One thing that occurs to me in reading the comments posted so far is that everyone's focused on the size of the tip opening without taking into consideration the other aspects of a mouthpiece.

I've found in working with my Morgan pieces -- same tip opening but different chamber sizes -- that a mouthpiece with a little more baffle and/or a smaller chamber can take a harder reed easier than a mouthpiece with less baffle and a larger chamber. This seems like common sense to me. A large chamber piece with a smaller amount of baffle is going to have a slower air stream than a smaller chamber piece with more baffle. Thus, softer reeds may be needed to have good response on a larger chamber piece.

Conventional wisdom tells us the larger the tip opening, the softer the reed. But, the design of the baffle, chamber, and facing curve can make it easier to use a harder reed on a piece with a larger tip opening.

Personally, I use a middle of the road set up -- Morgan 6 and Alexander Classique #2.5 or #3 -- and take in a lot of the mouthpiece. I spent a considerable amount of time experimenting with my set up and playing approach on c-melody. At first, I found that I could get more volume in using a smaller chamber piece like a Beechler. But, it's simply not as full and rich sounding as what I get with a Morgan. I found that in using #2.5 reeds (as Ralph suggested to me) and taking in A LOT of the mouthpiece -- my chops are in a similar position on the c-melody mouthpiece as they are on SOPRANO! -- that the sound opens up in an amazing way. With this approach I'm able to get as much volume with a large chamber Morgan as I did before with a Beechler and the quality of my sound is MUCH BETTER.

I agree with the comments made about going with what works for you. If you're happy with the sound you're getting with your current set up why change anything?

Never the less, I'm shaking my head over how you said that you take in only 1/2" of the mouthpiece from the tip. That isn't much at all! I can see how softer reeds wouldn't work as well for you if you're taking in only this much of the mouthpiece. You'll have to take in a lot more in order to see what Ralph is talking about.

Anyway, that's my take on it.

[Roger Aldridge]

PS.....

A good rule of thumb about how much mouthpiece to take in is to look at your mouthpiece and reed from the side. See where the reed hits the facing curve. Ideally, your lower lip should be at or slightly behind (toward the shank end of mouthpiece) this point on the reed. With your lower lip in this position the reed and mouthpiece can work together more efficiently. It's my sense that this is what Ralph is getting at. According to Ralph, a lot of saxophone teachers have forgotten about this. Thus, they don't often advise their students to take in more of the mouthpiece. Ralph told me that the 30's and 40's big band sax players had to do this in order to get enough volume out of their vintage mouthpieces to balance with the brass section.

Hope this helps!

[Anonymous]

Nef, I agree that you sound pretty good for a "biter". :wink:

Lots of guys use #3.5 reeds on .110" mpcs. As much as I respect Mr. Morgan, I don't see how anyone can analyse an embouchure over the phone.

What prompted Mr. Morgan's comments? Did he notice marks on the mouthpiece that told him your bite was too shallow?

[Anonymous]

btw, according to his website, Mintzer plays #3.5 Vandoren V16s on a Freddie Greogry 7*.

[Nefertiti]

Yeah , he saw the teeth indentations on the mouthpiece patch. Roger: It seems that if your lower teeth and lip are out at the break or past it, it would hinder your ability to bend and manipulate the reed with your embouchure. Is this not true. I know when take this much mouthpiece I get a bigger sound but it seems like I sacrifice in expression. What do you think?

[Anonymous]

Actually, I have found just the opposite to be true. I can do much more with the reed by taking in more mpc. It takes some getting used to, though.

[max]

Wow - 0.5" does seem pretty weird to me, too.

BUT - you're making it work for you. It might not be the way I'd teach someone to do it, but since you're clearly getting the sound/volume you want with the expressiveness you want, it doesn't seem like it would be that urgent for you to make a change.

If you did want to take the hit to learn to take more mouthpiece in, though, I think you might be happy with the results... or not. It's really tough for someone else to know.

[Balladeer]

I just can't help this.
...I think you might be happy with the results... or not.
Of course that is a true statement. But you might only be partly happy...or partly unhappy. Can we get a commitment?

Nef: I've been working on taking more piece. It's different and at first it feels gross like taking too big a bite of something (You can tell most of us are guys). The expressive control points have moved back for me from the lips/tongue to the rear mouth cavity and throat...tongue is down most of the time with occassional arching to get a little whiney bend.

Only thing I'll add is that your sound on those mpc sound clips shows a very solid core sound. Other than receiving this advice from Ralph, what are you trying to accomplish that is generating your interest in an embouchure change? Also, did Ralph hear any of your sound samples?

[Roger Aldridge]

Nefertiti,

I agree with Mike R and Balladeer. It usually takes some time to get used to this playing position. But once you're comfortable with it you'll find that you can be just as expressive than before if not more so. I take in the most amount of mouthpiece (relatively speaking) on soprano and c-melody. On clarinet and alto I take in quite a bit of the mouthpiece -- more than what I learned from my woodwind teachers -- but not quite as much as on soprano and c-mel.

The Morgan c-melody mouthpiece is close in size to his L tenor piece. Since I started out as an alto player, the tenor-sized c-melody mouthpiece was bigger than what I was used to. Thus, I had to adapt my chops to this piece. In addition, I found that I had to take in more of the mouthpiece in order to get more volume, projection, and fullness out of my 84-year old horn. A c-mel naturally has a softer sound than other saxophones. Thus, I have to push it more than my other horns in order to hold my ground when I'm playing unmiked in an ensemble. Within this context taking in more of the mouthpiece has made a big difference.

On clarinet I found that taking in more of the mouthpiece gives me a bigger and richer sound. No problem in the least being expressive with it.

[max]

Can we get a commitment?

Maybe. :wink:

I think it would be worth the effort, but I could see where Nef might not...

[Anonymous]

Just a random thought...back on the old forum, someone posted that Ralph Morgan referred to Vandoren V16s as "bass clarinet" reeds. :lol:

One of these days I'm going to have to call Mr. Morgan myself... :wink:

[MojoBari]

I usually do not take in a lot of mouthpiece either. But where is 1/2" measured from? Outside of bottom lip to tip? Inside?

The bottom lip needs to be in area of where the reed breaks away from the table. I would say it needs to be towards the tip so that the outside of your bottom lip is at the break point. One teaching technique is to place a business card between the reed and mouthpiece to find where the approximate break point is. Then place your thumb nail at that point and hold it there while setting your embouchure (pull the card out first). This is just another guideline. Chris Vadala teaches this as do others.

If you take too much in, you can not play with expression other than with using your air and tongue. Jaw vibrato will not work.

If you take in less, you risk buzzing and hurting your lower lip. You darken the sound, which may be desired. Players who take in less MP do sometimes "bite" (use jaw pressure) to close off some of the tip opening between the reed and mouthpiece. This allows them to play softly on wide tip openings with hard reeds. Then by relaxing they can play quite loud, but will buzz their lower lip if they do not take in more MP at that point. Players with strong chop muscles can accomplish pretty much the same thing without jaw biting.

Strong muscles can also be used to get more expression out of a MP/reed combo while taking more tip in. Stronger chops are needed when there is less leverage on the reed.

[max]

I was measuring (well, guestimating) from tip to mouthpiece patch dent (so, upper teeth).

I just now measured it, though, and was surprised - I only actually take in about 11/16" myself (using the tip to dent measurement).

I guess the 3/16th" difference can be a lot, but 1/2" isn't as little as I was thinking it was.

[hershel]

i take in just under 3/4 inch(measured from teeth to mthpc tip)and on tenor stm #7 with #2 reeds i get a big fat and loud sound. i'll take in a little more or change the angle occasionaly to change the tonal texture. i've been told i should take in more mthpc but it's not for me.

hey, baseball's spring training is well under way......
a 300 hitter who hits a ton of doubles with a somewhat unconventional stance and swing is trying to 'straighten' himself out to become a 350 hitter who hits a ton of homers. good luck.

[max]

Good analogy - either way you want to take it. (IOW, is it worth it? Some would say yes, others no...)

[PhilF]

Nefertiti, do you have a phone number for Ralph Morgan? Thanks

[BATMAN]

as far as taking mpc in, my lower teeth (if they weren't covered by my lip) touch the point where the facing breaks away from the reed. I've read and been told this is where it should be, but whatever the case, it's what's worked.

for example, I noticed that I was getting a poor sound on my Bay mpc for clarinet. Not bad, just not as good as I was able to get before I bought the mpc. Until I took in more mpc than usual. I then noticed that the facing is quite a bit longer than my old pieces. Once I found and got comfortable with the facing discrepancy, I was able to get a sound again.

And agreed with Roger, the innner dimensions are equally important as tip opening. The baffle in concert with the tip opening I have found to make the biggest difference for me as far as reed strength is concerned. To cite the Guardala Branford again as an example, it has a high baffle that IMMEDIATELY drops off into a HUGE chamber, and this is why you can play harder reeds despite the large tip. It plays as easy as my Hollywood Dukoff which is a mere 7 (.100) but has virtually no baffle, and only a medium chamber.

[Nefertiti]

I think the hardest thing to get used to with more mouthpiece in my mouth is the change in position of my tongue.I have to have it further back and it has to travel less to get to the reed. Feels strange. Ralph's suggestion was to take about 3/4 to an inch on top but to tilt my head down so my lower lip is at the same place on the bottom of the reed. It's funny because every legit teacher I've had has corrected me from doing this. I used to do it much more when I was younger but in college the professor saidtilting your head down closes up your throat. Who knows. I'm not going to worry about it. Thanks for the posts everyone.

[bohosheets]

Interesting. I have a non-trivial overbite and I move my lower jaw forward to compensate, which i suspect might tend to close up my throat. In fact, In Teal's book he implies that I shouldn't even be playing saxophone ! But, based on Mr. Morgans advice, I should be able to achieve the same effect by taking more piece and NOT moving my jaw forward (wouldn't event have to tilt my head down).

[Sigmund451]

First you can find the morgan number under morgan enterprises...in ohio. They are on forest grove road or something like that. Find the town and then the number and call.

Advice I got for reeds was that his mpcs are designed for optimum perormance at spefic reed strengths. He suggested on the Jazz piece 5L a 3-3.5 and a 6L and 2.5-3

He stated if you put these setups next to one another on the same horn the sound should be close to identical. He also recommended in reeds the Vandoren Javva to assist with bringing out the low end easily. He suggested that the blues dont match the design so well as the javva.

As I dont have my morgan yet I cant evaluate this but Im not going to pretend that I know a fraction of what this man knows about saxophones and mouthpieces. If he says this is the way to go..Im certainly starting there.

Also or what ever reason he warned against the various reed mods that show up on the forum...I dont know why that is but then, again, who am I to argue...but then, if you feel like an experiment what the heck...its a reed.

Ralph is an awesome businessman and a heck of a guy. I learned more in our discussion in a few minutes than I could hardly absorb.

[colibri]

I use Zonda 3.5K on my Morgan 8M. If it plays better for me, then I don't care about the acousti-match chart.

[jazzbluescat]

I use Java & V16 #2 with STM metal 8* Link. There're a little soft[I pull them out a bit from the tip], everything else is too hard--#2 reg Vandoren, Zonda.
Prior to that I used med soft LaVoz with D6 Dukoff, for 20+ years.

I wanna try the ZZ, but, nobody has'em at the moment.

[mrjazz]

What note do you get when you play just the mouthpiece? For Tenor you should get a G on top of the treble staff. (Alto is an A above the staff, Clarinet a high C and Bari 4th space E) If your getting something higher, then you're probably bitting to hard. And your intonation is also affected. Do you find that you must hang the mouthpicece closer to the end of the neck? This would be an indication of biting and getting the wrong basic note on just the mouthpiece. That is usually the case with some clarinetist that want to double on Tenor. Clarinet uses a fast breath that feels cool when you blow on you hand, but sax uses a warm slow breath. In fact, some have described the tenor sound as a loud subtone. I use a Runyon metal piece #11 on my Tenor with a number 2 or sometimes 2.5 reed, usually a plain Rico. I can play as soft or as loud as I want and also as high, up to double altisimo A. Usually the wider the opening the softer the reed as a rule of thumb that's true. I had the late Frank Wells (of Chicago) reface a piece for me on alto. (he actually learned from Santy Runyon years ago. Santy taught Bird back in his beginning years. If you've ever been to Joe Segal's Jazz Showcase in Chicago, that giant poster of Bird with the white mouthpiece is not a Brillhardt, but is a Runyon) Wells would open it up to match the reed strength that you wanted to use so that almost every reed from the box would play great. I had a friend who hated his metal pieces because he insisted on a 3.5-4 reed on Tenor. When I told him to try a 2 he was absolutely amazed. More control, longer phrases, easier to growl (for that older sound of the honkers and screamers). Try it for a while, it may feel wierd at first, but it may be worth the effort.