Review: Saxgourmet Tenor [Archive] - Sax on the Web Forum

mvspur

08-01-2006, 05:15 PM

As promised, I finally had the opportunity to play the Saxgourmet line of saxophones. I spent 3 hours with Steve and the Saxgourmet horns at the TBA Convention here in San Antonio. I spent a significant amount of time with both the alto and the tenor respectively and I have to tell you that I just might have played some of the finest saxophones I have ever held in my hands.

What I am about to say holds true for both the Alto and Tenor in the Saxgourmet line. While we can honestly say what works for some, may not for others when discussing horns, pieces, reeds, etc, I promise you this: No matter who takes these for a spin, they will unanimously agree on my findings.

I paid particular attention to these aspects of the horn as they are important to me.

Aesthetic Quality - How does the horn look just sitting there on the stand?
-----------------
If you can imagine a glowing heated peace of metal, that's what these horns remind me of. The copper content is so impressive, to say the least. Steve said they put a very thin clear coat over it to keep it from turning as copper would if left raw. This horn is georgeous with very nice engraving too. I really loved the abalone key touches.

Ergonomics - How does it feel just holding it? How are the keys positioned relative to my hand size? How flexible is this to adjust to someone who may have smaller/larger hands than I do?
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I have always found fault with at least one thing on every horn I have had the pleasure of playing throughout the years. This is truly a constant. It has either been the left and/or right-hand pinky keys, the lower right hand stack rotated too far over "to the right" causing discomfort on the thumb. Steve actually measured all of his student's hands to get an idea of what he felt would be a good model for key positioning. I think folks with large or small hands will find this horn very much to their liking. Speaking of the right hand thumb: I will be putting a Saxgourmet thumb rest on every one of my horns ASAP. I can't believe how long I've gone without experiencing how comfortable that little piece of ingenuity is! Ok....back to the horns. Imagine a Selmer Mark VI in absolute perfect adjustment, but only better. I'll comment on the action in the next section. You also get your choice of three positions with the three-ring strap clip. I liked the middle one, myself.

Key Action - How is the spring resistance? Too Heavy? Too Light?
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The action on this horn is slicker than greased owl poop, but with just the right amount of resistance. I ran through some fast scales and arpeggios and it was right there with me the whole way. I have absolutely nothing negative to say here. The horn will play faster than I can, for sure.

Response - How much effort is required to get the horn to speak?
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This was probably the most impressive aspect of the horns to my taste. They speak incredibly well from the very top to the very bottom. I will go on record and say that I have never played a horn that was as effortless to play in the notes below the staff. You can easily get a low Bb out at ppp if you so desire. AND NO WARBLING!!! If I understand correctly, the rifling in the neck has a great deal to do with this. I was really blown away by consistency of sound production at varying levels of air support.

Intonation - How well does the horn play in tune with itself? Palm Keys? Middle D? Open C#? Low C# thru Low Bb?
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Ever play a saxophone that played low-middle-high D effortlessly AND in tune? Yes, I said it.....MIDDLE D IN TUNE! This one does! Man, the D above the staff is dead-on accurate as well! Open C# speaks very clearly and in tune. I've already praised the lower end of the horn for it's ability to produce sound. The notes are very well in tune as well.

Price? - How much will it cost me to own one?
------

If my memory serves me correctly, (and I'll apologize in advance if I'm wrong)

Alto lists retail for $5950 - can have for around $4200
Tenor lists retail for $6150 - can have for around $4500

They ain't cheap, but judging from my experience, they stand up to the price tag.

The guys told me that anything you've seen on WWBW so far has not been accurately represented. The proper info and photos were sent. I believe the corrections are suuposed to be made.

For those of you that have read any of my other posts regarding how much I truly enjoy the horns I presently own, I have to tell you....these Saxgourmet horns have me thinking again. I will honestly say that horns I played are just as good if not better than anything on the market today. To quote Steve: "This horn is everything the Mark VI should have been."

I hope you will find this information useful. I wanted to follow up with you guys and give you my impression of the horns, as I promised I would do. Please do not trash my level of enthusiasm. I was not paid to be this excited about the horns. They speak for themselves, plain and simple.

Have a great day all.

Mike

Mark5047

08-01-2006, 05:28 PM

Mike,

I am sure others will be jumping on you - but let me first off thank you for your review. I know you are already a fan of the company doing the distribution, and I also know we agree on the quality of the LA Sax brand... That being said, I do have a few things though that I would like to point out.
First off, the closest you came to saying anything negative was They ain't cheap
Well, I find it hard to believe price is the only downside to this instrument. What would YOU change about it if you could? Also to be honest, I really doubt I would part with that kind of money for an instrument and not have it be a Ref 54 or something else with a real reputation backing it.
Please dont take this as being critical, just being honest.

gary

08-01-2006, 05:33 PM

Thanks for taking the time, Mike. I might've read right over it, but I didn't notice tone. Bright-dark, thin-full bodied? More akin to a Yamaha than a Paul Mauriat? Can you give a little more info on this most important aspect? Thanks.

Dr G

08-01-2006, 06:02 PM

Aesthetic Quality - If you can imagine a glowing heated peace of metal, that's what these horns remind me of.

Ergonomics - I think folks with large or small hands will find this horn very much to their liking.

Key Action - The action on this horn is slicker than greased owl poop, but with just the right amount of resistance.

Response - They speak incredibly well from the very top to the very bottom.

Intonation - The notes are very well in tune as well.

Price? - They ain't cheap, but judging from my experience, they stand up to the price tag.

For those of you that have read any of my other posts regarding how much I truly enjoy the horns I presently own, I have to tell you....these Saxgourmet horns have me thinking again.

Bonus points for exercising your creative writing skills!

To answer Gary's question, I'd guess that it'll sound just like you want it to. It's the true chameleon horn - it fits everyone, will make everyone sound great.

The real test will be when people actually buy these horns, play them long enough to learn what they are about, and then commit to the Goodson horns by selling their Mk VIs, Super 20s, etc. I'm sorry that Steve's previous venture didn't work out. I'd really like to see these come off as advertised and wow the market.

Hmmm, what would Grumps say?

mvspur

08-02-2006, 03:47 PM

Gents,

After reading back over my post, I realized I left the tone part out, so I'll pick up at that point and then try to find a negative aspect for you so that I don't lose what tiny amount of credibility I have.

Tone - In my mind, these horns have a voice that is big and rich with just the right amount of edge. I played my usual setups on each one. You guys know that the player's choice of setup has alot to do with this so I'm not even going to go there.

To recap:

Alto - Meyer 6M/Olegature/Vandoren ZZ #3
Tenor - Link STM 7*/Olegature/Vandoren ZZ #3

I'm sure you could shove an old C* with a blue box #4 reed and Rovner dark ligature on this horn and it would do just fine. However, that sound is not for me. My evaluation leaned more to the jazz tonal quality of the instrument. It's a very free blowing horn as well.

My time on the alto was mostly spent playing Charlie Parker tunes from the Omnibook or playing bebop duets with this cat that walked up and started playing the horns while I was there.

My time on the tenor was mostly spent playing old jazz standards from the 40's & 50's and a few contemporary tunes. I threw in a few gospel things that came off really nicely.

Ok.....I found a negative (if you can even call it that). I asked Steve if he planned to offer an array of finishes with this horn and I learned that what we see is what we get. Having said that, and after listening to his reasoning, I have to say it makes sense.

Here it is:

The copper content is so high with this horn that it stands out from anything else on the market. I have not seen another horn that looks like it yet. I swear it glows. He feels that this is a good thing and I would have to agree to some extent. At present, he doesn't want to cover it up with another color lacquer or plating.

I'll be real honest with you, though. I'd like to see this horn in either all sterling silver, sterling and gold, or black nickel and sterling. I'm a fan of those finishes if they are done properly. I see on the web that a silver neck might be available for it. Man, it would really scream then.

So, for what my opinion is worth (probably not that much, to most of you), you now have it. I am not employed by these people. I'm just a friend who gets an opportunity from time to time.

Thanks for indulging me.

Mike

Dr G

08-02-2006, 04:10 PM

The copper content is so high with this horn that it stands out from anything else on the market. I have not seen another horn that looks like it yet.

I see on the web that a silver neck might be available for it. Man, it would really scream then.

So what makes you think the copper content is so high? And so what if it is?

Your statement regarding necks is really telling to me. That a horn would scream just because its neck is (or looks) silver.

Thanks for keeping us up on the progress of the horn however.

All the best to you and yours.

Grumps

08-02-2006, 04:12 PM

Hmmm, what would Grumps say?
Now that the horns are out in public, is it indicated where they are made anywhere on the horn? Can you (mvspur) now tell us?

gary

08-02-2006, 04:31 PM

Cummon Grumps. Does it matter if it's made in Tasmania if it's an excellent horn? You're just trolling for yet another way of quibbling if SG is being forthcoming about all the info or not - another shot across the bow of the man's credibility, as it were.

:D Don't deny it. We're on to you, dude. :D

George - there are credible players here who swear that the neck is vitally important and who use either alternate manufacture necks or after-market necks and some of them (as well as pro players) use silver necks. I don't think morgan's statement necessarrily calls into question his judgement.

(Personally, I ain't gonna put out several thou on a horn and then go out and buy another neck; seems to me it should be understood that a quality neck is provided with a pro instrument.)

Mike - personally I don't care if you're Valdemort's mother. You have given a good description and like most such descriptions here, it is subjective and the reader is at liberty to take it or leave it. I appreciate the chance to read someone's -anyone's- take on a new horn. It seems that lately no one can post a thanks for a retailer or info about a new product without taking a beating for it. I for one appreciate it when someone takes the time to do so.

Phew! I must be out of my ever-lovin' mind, disagreeing with both grumps and george at the same time.
There will be a price to be paid. :violent1:

Mark5047

08-02-2006, 04:36 PM

Mike,

Thanks for the update. I still think he is starting at a VERY high price point. Maybe they should take an example from the cannonballs / antiguas / jupiters of the world and make them priced 'reasonable' until a real reputation is developed - THEN go for the jugular!
Just my 2 cents. And to be honest, there is ZERO chance I would part with 5 heavy unless I play tested one and was able to buy the one I tested - and even then, well time will tell how they hold up.
Seriously though - if anyone else gets a chance to play test this, other opinions would be welcome......

Grumps

08-02-2006, 05:02 PM

Cummon Grumps. Does it matter if it's made in Tasmania if it's an excellent horn?
If Tasmania had been known for producing fine professional horns, then no, it wouldn't matter. Thing is, one insider claimed PRC, which up to this point hasn't been known as a producer of fine professional horns. In fact, they're known for producing the complete opposite. A valid issue, I believe; and one that's put more than just the designer's credibility on the line.

mvspur

08-02-2006, 05:02 PM

I knew when I did this that I would take a beating.:cry:

Regarding the silver neck. I believe that is really just a matter of preference. Come on guys.....was there something wrong with the original neck that came with Michael Brecker's Mark VI to make him go to a silver one? I think not. There is obviously a nuance that he prefers with that silver neck. Anyone who knows anything about saxophones and metalurgy will tell you that silver livens up the sound. That's why people like it so much. Why is the original Super 20 with the sterling neck worth so much more, or in higher demand?

You guys probably have forgotten more than I will ever know regarding saxophones and their history.

Play the horns and be your own judge. I offered my honest opinion. If you get your hands on one and relegate it to "clinker" status, then come here and post that I'm full of crap and I obviously know nothing about anything. You are entitled to do so. I doubt very seriously that you will have that experience. As for me, all it took was the opening riff to "Parker's Mood" to make me smile.

Grumps

08-02-2006, 05:12 PM

Play the horns and be your own judge.
Thing is, not everybody can get into these trade shows to see them. Are they available anywhere else, or do you have to order them sight unseen? Were they selling them at the event where you tried them, or taking orders for sale? If they were taking orders, were they asking for deposits?

Dr G

08-02-2006, 05:20 PM

George - there are credible players here who swear that the neck is vitally important and who use either alternate manufacture necks or after-market necks and some of them (as well as pro players) use silver necks.

No argument, Gary, that some credible players choose to use proven aftermarket gear. To judge that a horn is going "scream" just because it's neck is silver is a long reach. If if came with a Gloger or Boesken silver neck, that would be one matter but if the neck comes from an unproven maker of questionable experience, it just doesn't matter what the material is. I'm guessing this horn falls somewhere between those two extremes.

There, I said it - material doesn't matter :D (especially if the design is flawed).

Morry

08-02-2006, 05:27 PM

Thing is, not everybody can get into these trade shows to see them. Are they available anywhere else, or do you have to order them sight unseen? Were they selling them at the event where you tried them, or taking orders for sale? If they were taking orders, were they asking for deposits?

You're right. A couple of hand-tweaked horns does not a product line make.

hgiles

08-02-2006, 06:27 PM

I am interested in where these horns are made as well. The price seems high for a new (unproven) line. There are way too many good horns out there at half the price to just throw this kind of money at an also ran.

This review has me a bit mystified actually.

Mark R

08-02-2006, 09:19 PM

was there something wrong with the original neck that came with Michael Brecker's Mark VI to make him go to a silver one?

Actually I think I recall either someone telling me or reading that the original neck suffered from "pull down" and Michael's main reason for using the silver neck is not because it plays better than the original but that the angle of it is more comfortable for Michael VS the pulled-down original neck. This is hear-say so if someone else knows other actual facts VS this bit of info please offer it up.

Dr G

08-02-2006, 09:30 PM

Given that neck angle is fairly consistent (moreso that interior dimensions), I find it hard to believe that he didn't make sure that the silverplate neck plays well too - at least as good as, or better, than the bent one it replaced.

jimmitch

08-02-2006, 10:14 PM

I paid $4500 for an Oleg tenor at the time I did not know that it was maybe made in Taiwan.Now I think it was although I cant get a clear answer.Would I have plaid that much if I knew that, maybe not.It does look and play great but he said it was custom made.It cant be custom made if it made in Taiwan. I have seen a lot of horns from there that look the same just engraved different.They should have to label these horns made in Taiwan so we know were there made.

JNAORPH62

08-18-2006, 09:14 PM

Mike

Hey, just wanted say really enjoyed having you at our booth for the TBA conference in San Antonio.

A Two Thumbs up on the Saxgourmet review you posted!!!!!! They really are GREAT HORNS!!!!!!!!!!!

Although I did not realize you would have to face an Iraqi war situation on a sax forum regarding a saxophone that just might be the next Mark VI.

Again GREAT JOB!!!!!!!!!! And Thanks a bunch for your honesty and knowledge!

P.S. Those of you wondering who I am you may contact me at 800-821-9448 if you have any questions regarding these horns.

Cheers!

Grumps

08-18-2006, 09:28 PM

Although I did not realize you would have to face an Iraqi war situation on sax forum regarding a saxophone that just might the next Mark VI.
If folks like you (and you do sell them) didn't so agressively push them with such unrealistic expectations, I'd suppose there wouldn't be any problems.

JNAORPH62

08-18-2006, 09:54 PM

Hey, I understand your frustration! All I ask is that you don't smack something down to the ground without trying one first!

That's all!!!!!!!!!!!

Cheers!

Morry

08-18-2006, 10:03 PM

Hey, I understand your frustration! All I ask is that you don't smack something down to the ground without trying one first!

That's all!!!!!!!!!!!

Cheers!

But you must realize that when previously unknown posters show up to hawk some new widget, it makes people suspicious.

Randall

08-18-2006, 11:45 PM

Been reading this thread and while I have no definite info on the origin of the horns, HOWEVER, looking at the the type/style of stamp that the serial numbers are made with, I would suspect they are made in the PRC.

I have a pretty good eye for type fonts the Chinese use and the serial numbers on these horns look typical of PRC produced goods. If I could actually see the box the horn came in with stenciled lettering I could tell in an instant.

So for now, it is just an opinion.

Does that mean it is a bad horn?

I will be the first to say wait till you can try one before you judge. I know from personal experience that there are some Taiwan horns that are killers now, and I have some very knowledgable and talented friends who are telling me increasingly good things about newer PRC horns.

When I play them, I will know for sure, but until then....:)

schneidt

08-19-2006, 12:10 AM

So back to the original subject of this thread, has anyone had the chance to try one of these horns. There's a dealer near me that used to carry LA Sax but they don't seem to carry them anymore. I'm certainly not going to special order one since I wouldn't be able to return it if I didn't like it. Currently I'm out of the horn market, but if I was in the market, I'd see if I could try one out. (I played everything, and I mean everything I could get my hands on when I was looking for my horns)

Morry

08-19-2006, 01:41 AM

schneidt

08-19-2006, 02:06 AM

Are these horns not in the hands of dealers yet? I assumed by now they would be. (I haven't been following this thread closely so please forgive my ignorance.)

Harri Rautiainen

08-19-2006, 02:09 AM

Are these horns not in the hands of dealers yet? I assumed by now they would be. (I haven't been following this thread closely so please forgive my ignorance.)For anything designed or associated with Steve Goodson, never send any money in advance.

That is the lesson learned by some of the SOTW members a hard way.

Randall

08-20-2006, 11:06 PM

Well, with great sadness I have to add to this thread a bit more.
I have been a participant on the saxgourmet board and the saxnation board as well as here and others. So I have never really taken much of position on others experiences with Steve Goodson, and preferred to only rely on my own dealings and take the advice of others into consideration.
So, I just received the totally (uncalled for) following email from Steve directly The subject line of the mail reads as follows:

IS THE TYPE FONT POST ON SOTW YOURS?

Then the body of the email:

Hello Randall Pennington,

The following is an email sent to you by admin via your account on Sax Nation. If this message is spam, contains abusive or other comments you find offensive please contact the webmaster of the board at the following address:

steve@saxnation.com

Include this full email (particularly the headers). Please note that the reply address to this email has been set to that of admin.

Message sent to you follows
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If so, please see my response on this forum in the Saxgourmet heading. If not, my sincere apology.

Site Admin

So I went to the saxnation site and found, first, that I could no longer post there (so much for the insincere apology over any confusion about who I am! lol). Seems da judge and jury are one person indeed. So I have not replied to the administrator directly.

Then I read the following, which totally misses the mark of my post (which I must again say was an opinion)....he is talking of the engraved logos, etc...

The whole tone of this tends to make me think that my suspicion is indeed correct. But, as I stated before these are only my thoughts/opinions expressed on this forum, something that seems lost on Steve.

That post is copied for your enjoyment, below:

Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 96
Location: New Orleans

Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:45 am Post subject: Logos, typefonts, and serial numbers

They're at it again over at The Saxophone Misinformation Site, and I want to correct something that was said. A poster there states that he's able to tell from the logo typefont the nation of origin and that these look like they're from the PRC. This is, of course, not correct. I've examined all of the pictures we have released, and none of them show anywhere near that sort of detail. But then, maybe my eyes are failing. Or possibly someone wishes to simply imply something that is not correct. I don't know the answer, but here's the full and complete story on the logo and the typefont used.

The logo was designed by Dr. Mike Tyner of Birmingham, Alabama in 1995 and has been in continuous use on my Saxgourmet brand products since 1995. Dr. Tyner was my first webmaster and is a citizen of the USA and has always resided here. The rest of the typefonts were added to the logo here at my temporary office in New Orleans using Adobe Photoshop 7. After all of this material was put together, a template was made and examples of the engraving were sent to me for my approval. At no time did any of this originate anywhere but my office.

We use boxes that we buy from UUline in Dallas, Texas. As far as I know, the boxes are made and printed in the USA. The horns come to us bulk packed in plain air freight containers.

The serial numbers on the Saxgourmet horns (the source of the typefont is Adobe Photoshop 7) all begin with the same four digits. These four digits are my wife's birthday. The horns are then sequenced according to production order. There is no distinction between alto, tenor, or soprano horns as far as serial numbers go.

As always, I am happy to answer any questions, and am always eager to put a stop to incorrect speculation.
_________________
Steve Goodson
Forum Owner and Benevolent Despot,
Saxophone Guru and Visionary

Frankly, I am through with this.
8-)

retread

08-21-2006, 12:01 AM

He cleverly avoids the issue of where the horns are made.

schneidt

08-21-2006, 03:17 AM

Yes, he does avoid addressing the issue...but, the boxes are made and printed in the USA, that's better than most saxes, right? :D

JNAORPH62

08-22-2006, 03:42 AM

I apologize if I have caused any kind of confusion as to who I am. Looks like I am being mistaken for someone else.

My name is Jerry, I work for a company who is involved in distribution and marketing of this fine instrument. If you feel I am being arrogant in speaking my mind then you may contact me at the USA number which is 210-637-0414. I feel I have a right to speak my mind about a horn that I truly believe is an incredible horn regardless of who is the designer, and distributor.

Cheers!

rgone

08-22-2006, 05:06 AM

I just tried their MODEL VI and the STEVE GOODSON MODEL acouple of days ago. I had the money with me and really thought i would buy the goodson horn. I was in for a big dissappointment. I couldn't get the horn to speak.Now, before you guys start saying that it was the player and not the horn,let me say that I tried a red burnished 850 model tenor, just to make sure it was the horn and not me. I made that sucker scream from low Bb to a B4. The salesman was so impressed that he offered the tenor for $799.00.I told him that the reason i was there was because i was interested in the goodson model . He told me that they had just returned from a trade show in New York and that everyone that tried it there, wouldn't want to put it down, they just wanted to keep playing it. If that was the case,then i guess i'm a beginner sax plyer....nottt!!!!! I believe that the horn went out of alignment while on transit or by the mishandling of the horn, which is what i told him.The thing is that if the horn went out of alignment from usage ,from one day to the next,makes me think that the horn is not dependable.I'm not used to playing a horn that goes out of regulation that easy,especially one at that price. I really wished that i could had been able to play-test the darn horn.If the guy had been a sax player,he would had known that the horn was not in playing condition before i got there. The salesman seemed pretty embarrssed about the situation. I hope they iron out all the imperefections before those model VIs and goodson models hit the market.

morgan

08-22-2006, 02:25 PM

Which store was this?

rgone

08-22-2006, 03:09 PM

TO MORGAN;

It was at the LA SAX warehouse.One of the reps. there gave me a call when the horns were available for testing.When I play-tested the Goodson model horns,I had a hard time adjusting to the 2nd register key,which is located to the left side of the left hand thumbrest.I kept pressing the 2nd octave key by accident.I have to admit , even though the horn wasn't playable in the middle and high octaves,due to the problems already discribed in my previous post,the altissimo was a whole different story.I was able to hit a D5 easily,with the altissimo key.The altissimo range seemed to just pop right out of the horn ,with no effort at all.

Grumps

08-22-2006, 03:44 PM

So I went to the saxnation site and found, first, that I could no longer post there...
I don't think you're missing much; other than about half of his own posts denigrating this very site. And that's rather funny considering the Gimish adventure, and what apparently is his desire to remain on this board. I'd have left his forum after his post-Katrina tirade (from the previous forum) where he implored his readers to take a good look at the ones commiting the crimes, and remember. I lost a lot of respect for the folks that wished him well after that one.

morgan

08-22-2006, 04:21 PM

It was at the LA SAX warehouse.One of the reps. there gave me a call when the horns were available for testing.

So if I am in .. is this Los Angeles or what city? .. and I call LA Sax and ask for .. Name Of Rep? .. then I can try these horns?

Hurling Frootmig

08-22-2006, 04:32 PM

JNAORPH62

08-22-2006, 05:14 PM

This is Jerry Atencio with Orpheus Music. I'm the saxophone sales specialist here, and am happy to answer any questions about our products at any time.

We're more than a little concerned about your post here, because it could not possibly have happened as you described events. Here's why:

(1) We haven't shipped any Steve Goodson Model tenors to any dealers. Only alto models have been shipped. The only tenor examples are in Steve's possession. You could not possibly have played one.

(2) We haven't shipped any Saxgourmet tenors to your area. Where did you play one?

(3) We haven't participated in any trade shows in New York since January 2006, and the prototype Saxgourmet tenor used at that show is in Steve's possession. You could not possibly have played it. The production models that we now have were never shown at trade shows.

(4) I find it hard to believe that a dealer who just received horns in inventory would offer to sell you one at considerably below dealer cost. All horns that are in dealer inventory now are very recent arrivals, and it defies logic to think that a dealer would take a loss on an instrument that they have not had the opportunity to show to their customers.

I hate to have to point out that the story you relate to us here is impossible, but it is.

Again, let me know know of your questions. We would sincerely appreciate an explanation of your post, and more details if any are available.

fballatore

08-22-2006, 05:20 PM

:sign5:

Stacey

08-22-2006, 05:53 PM

I'm the saxophone sales specialist here, and am happy to answer any questions about our products at any time.

Again, let me know know of your questions.

My turn, my turn! I haven't gotten to play this game in a long time, and I want to give it a shot:

Jerry, in what country are these instruments manufactured?

I'll make it easy for you. You don't need to write a lengthy reply. It doesn't even need to be a full sentence. Just a name of a country - something similar to the following model answers:

"France"
"Taiwan"
"People's Republic of China"
"Germany"

Hey - that was fun! Thanks for letting me spin the wheel once again!

Grumps

08-22-2006, 05:56 PM

This is Jerry Atencio with Orpheus Music. I'm the saxophone sales specialist here, and am happy to answer any questions about our products at any time.
Hi Jerry,
I'll take you up on that one...

On his web forum, the designer claims that these horns are designed in the U.S.A. with final adjustment being done here as well. Where are the horns manufactured and put together? Answering this simple question would go a long way in establishing credibility on this board. It does say where the horns are manufactured on the body of the instrument, does it not?

Grumps

08-22-2006, 06:04 PM

Oh well, looks like Stacey beat me to it...

But there is one misconception that needs to be cleared up:

(1) We haven't shipped any Steve Goodson Model tenors to any dealers. Only alto models have been shipped. The only tenor examples are in Steve's possession. You could not possibly have played one.

(2) We haven't shipped any Saxgourmet tenors to your area. Where did you play one?

He didn't state that he played a Goodson tenor, but an LA Sax 850 model tenor (which was offered to him for the $799 figure). You assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that he was talking about tenor Goodson models when he made his comparison. Good to know the tenors aren't out on the market yet... at least before putting down a substantial deposit for one. Thanks for that.

So back to Stacey's question...

JNAORPH62

08-22-2006, 06:46 PM

Hello Again!

Wow Guy's, Guy's Does it really matter where they are made?

I have very gutsy feeling that by reading some of these posts that even if I did tell you where they were made you still would not buy one or better yet probably smack it down to the ground faster.

Try one out and it will not matter where they are made trust me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And may the wheel keep on spinning!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cheers!

Grumps

08-22-2006, 06:50 PM

Wow Guy's, Guy's Does it really matter where they are made?
Obviously it must, at least to you and your ilk who refuse to disclose this material fact. So much for answering any questions. What we've come to expect though, with these offerings.

Stacey

08-22-2006, 07:04 PM

I'm not in the market for any saxophone at all right now. I didn't think that was a prerequisite to discussing these saxophones or any others. I am actually quite happy with all of my instruments, which for the record were manufactured primarily in the following countries:

my soprano: France
my alto: France
my C-melody: United States of America
my tenor: Taiwan (yes, I recognize that its status as an independent country is not universally recognized)

See how I did that? I rattled off a list of my four saxophones, followed by the name of the country where each was made.

Why is that so hard?

Morry

08-22-2006, 07:07 PM

Oh well, looks like Stacey beat me to it...

But there is one misconception that needs to be cleared up:

He didn't state that he played a Goodson tenor, but an LA Sax 850 model tenor (which was offered to him for the $799 figure). You assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that he was talking about tenor Goodson models when he made his comparison. Good to know the tenors aren't out on the market yet... at least before putting down a substantial deposit for one. Thanks for that.

So back to Stacey's question...

Actually, Grumps, I hate to come down side on SG in any argument, but the poster did say he play the Goodson model. He said it didn't speak very well, and then he played an 850 model which he sounded great on.

No dog in this fight. Just trying to keep the facts straight.

Stacey

08-22-2006, 07:22 PM

He didn't specifically say the Goodson Model was a tenor.
He did say the 850 was a tenor.

Morry, I agree that he certainly IMPLIES that the Goodson model was a tenor.

Dog fight? Where?!? I love dogs, and hate the people who run dog fights.

retread

08-22-2006, 07:23 PM

Could they be from Elbonia, where Dilbert's company does its outsourcing? That's one of the few places that would cause enough embarrassment to justify this level of secrecy.

fballatore

08-22-2006, 07:32 PM

(1) We haven't shipped any Steve Goodson Model tenors to any dealers. Only alto models have been shipped. The only tenor examples are in Steve's possession. You could not possibly have played one.

(2) We haven't shipped any Saxgourmet tenors to your area. Where did you play one?

I hate to have to point out that the story you relate to us here is impossible, but it is.

Wow, what the heck happened to your post that was in the place of this one?? The one that prompted my :sign5: post?? Now I wish that I had quoted your post in mine. It started out something like this:

HI RGONE!!!

You should really get your facts straight if you're going to post on the web.

Then you proceeded to take rgone to task for twisting the facts on his visit (where, according to your "disappearing post"), you were right there with him while he was trying out the SG tenor. You even said in that post "we both know that the lower stack didn't play well", but then said that the upper stack and altissimo sounded great! Then you went on to tell rgone how great he knew the horn was, and you made several comments that indicated to me that you're either clairvoyant or a mindreader regarding how rgone really felt about the horn. Hence my :sign5:

Now you've changed that post and claim that not only is rgone lying, but you've never met, and his story is "impossible".

Several people have asked the simple question, "Where is the horn manufactured?", and yet you refuse to answer.

You haven't shipped any SG tenors to dealers, yet we should take you on your word that this is "an incredible horn". The definition of incredible is "So implausible as to elicit disbelief." I'd say that's fairly accurate here.

You've pretty much attacked everyone here, and have nothing to say except how great the horn is.

Wow. What sales training courses did you attend?

Geez, makes me want to sell my LA-650.

Oops, guess I just got myself banished from Saxnation.com.

Frank

Mark5047

08-22-2006, 08:20 PM

It does appear someone is hiding something regarding the manufacture origin. If it were Japan, France or Germany, you BET it would be screamed from the mountaintops. Look at the Chicago Jazz - the fact that they are/were made in Germany is no secret at all. Try finding a piece of marketing fluff that doesn't tout that little tidbit.... I have zero problem with being made in Taiwan, Japan, Germany etc. Heck, every single horn I own is from Taiwan. Got no problem with that! My guess is then maybe there is a new place that is trying to break into the market and maybe this is a "you wash my hands I will wash your hands" deal.
Maybe they are made in Elbonia. Then if/when the general public gets an opportunity to play these instruments and IF they are as hot as the spin doctors say, then the next logical step is to say "and look, they come from Elbania" - next thing you know, there are little Elbanian sweatshops all over the place crankin out instruments......

morgan

08-22-2006, 09:44 PM

1. They're not going to tell you where the horns are made.
2. They're not going to tell you why they're not going to tell you.

That pretty much sums up that topic. Speculate, complain, laugh - - it's going to come back to 1. and 2.

morgan

08-22-2006, 09:46 PM

My questions for RGone were:

If I am in .. is this Los Angeles or what city? .. and I call LA Sax and ask for .. Name Of Rep? .. then I can try these horns?

I travel quite a bit and would like to know. I have played a Gourmet tenor but not the other alto/tenor flavors.

Grumps

08-22-2006, 09:51 PM

Actually, Grumps, I hate to come down side on SG in any argument, but the poster did say he play the Goodson model. He said it didn't speak very well, and then he played an 850 model which he sounded great on.
My post was only to point out that the Goodson models he tried may indeed have been altos. Only the 850 was specifically stated to be a tenor.

But now with fballatore's post, you'd have to wonder what the heck was going on. Perhaps JNAORPH was thinking of another individual he knew that was unhappy with the horn when he made that (allegedly) altered post. Either way, I think someone who cares might want to call Orpheus Music and let them know that there is an individual using the screen name JNAORPH62 that is doing wonders for their customer relations. And hey, should he turn out to be legit... just have a good laugh. I mean... it's pretty funny. Should be a masterclass; How Not to Sell a Saxophone.

Grumps

08-22-2006, 09:59 PM

2. They're not going to tell you why they're not going to tell you.
Not entirely accurate. The designer alleges that he has a confidentiality agreement (not sure with who) in which he cannot disclose his vendors. That is his rationale. He'd have done better of course to just have stuck with #2 above. No one has ever asked him, to my knowledge, who his vendors are. Just where the horns are made.

Comical.

Morry

08-23-2006, 12:48 AM

How about this? I will emphatically state that THESE HORNS ARE MADE IN CHINA!!

If I'm wrong, someone connected with the company correct me and I'll publish a full retraction and apology. :-)

gary

08-23-2006, 12:58 AM

I know this will incur wrath but, well...

What in the heck difference would it make if it was made in Tasmania?

The poor horse has been flogged, shot and thrown off a cliff. It would seem that bad blood is still festering over the former SG Sax fiasco to such an extent that the lines between passion and objectivity are getting blurred. Maybe it's time to take a little pause and regroup.

The point about the current SG Sax's country of origin has taken on a life of its own out of proportion to whatever significance it might have had in the beginning. It seems now to simply be a vehicle for yet another hard shot at SG and anyone having anything to do with a product that has his fingerprint on. The consequence is the berating of those who have expressed positive reactions to this new sax. I really think if we have some bona fide criticisms of the instrument we can do better than this.

Either these saxes play exceedingly well and justify the price or they don't. It's that simple. Obviously, some scepticism is justifiable, but it seems to me it would be more even-handed to reserve judgement until one of us has actually played one, since it's obvious that the opinion of any "outsider" with a positive experience is most unwelcome.

Scepticism is fine, but how about an even hand? Certainly a higher ground can be taken. :)

tophatsax

08-23-2006, 02:43 AM

Well said, Gary. I've been trying to figure out a way to express that for quite a while. Thanks.

Al Stevens

08-23-2006, 02:53 AM

The point about the current SG Sax's country of origin has taken on a life of its own out of proportion to whatever significance it might have had in the beginning.

It stopped being about where the sax is made a long time ago.

ALVEGASAX

08-23-2006, 03:43 AM

I got a chance to play the new la sax sax gourmet and steve goodson models.This babies are something to look at.They look like jewelry.I tell you.....these babies rock. I played the alto vi....bam!!!!the sound blew me away. With this horn, I was able to hit a 5th octave D.The altissimo sounded in tune and clean.The tone is dark with power to boot but becomes edgy when pushed without getting too bright. The altissimo range on these babies is so effertless to play,the notes just pop out of the horn. It would be an injustice if you dudes disregard or downgrade these horns simply because they were made in china or whereever they were made at. In my oppinion, I couldn't care less if they were made in the north pole,.....as long as they played great and had a great tone.

rgone, if you are who I think you are,...your time's up dude....I want that tenor back.I'll be in your nick of the woods next month.I soppose that challenge is still on.You never showed up that last time.I'll have someone get in touch with you when I get there,maybe we can get that grudge match over with,once and forall.I'll be at the Valdemar's Karate studio on the 12th.

CircaRevival

08-23-2006, 03:47 AM

rgone, if you are who I think you are,...your time's up dude....I want that tenor back.I'll be in your nick of the woods next month.I soppose that challenge is still on.You never showed up that last time.I'll have someone get in touch with you when I get there,maybe we can get that grudge match over with,once and forall.I'll be at the Valdemar's Karate studio on the 12th.

Woah guys...this is an internet forum. No need to fight in real life- no matter what degree of black belt you are. This should tell you how good and rare the horns are, people are fighting over them!

;)

Bernards20040

08-23-2006, 03:51 AM

i Just went to the web site and had a lok at the goodson models and the saxgourmet ones and with all the hype one name sprung to mind.

[HOLTON

Grumps

08-23-2006, 04:28 AM

I know this will incur wrath but, well...
Not wrath, just wonder... as in, I wonder where you've been the last three or four years.

When a product is marketed in an unethical and deceitful manner, I'll be sure to point that out. If that's a dead horse to you, or somehow uneven handed, well, I can take your admonishment. You ought to know better at least, but it's the others who might be fooled by a flashy website or incredible boasts of stature. They're the ones that need to know. Not everyone is so handy with the search feature as you are Gary. You can't expect everyone to know what's been posted last week, let alone several years ago. A lot of good people work to defend their own on this site. Don't undermine their efforts.

mvspur

08-23-2006, 05:25 AM

GARY.......It's about time someone grounded this discussion! I could not have said it better myself! BTW....what does it take to shed "Outsider" status? I have a life and most of my free time is spent with a horn in my hands and not at the keyboard. I played the horns myself and I gave you my honest opinion. Do I have to have 2000+ posts to have credibility?!?!?!?!?

I even went so far as to apologize for a misunderstanding and this is what became of it?!?!?!?

To the rest.....

You guys are crazy! This is one of the best forums on the web for more reasons than I can count and there is so much angst among you. I don't get it. While I'm at it, I DO NOT WORK FOR THESE PEOPLE!!!! I DO NOT GET ROYALTY CHECKS FROM STEVE GOODSON BECAUSE I "PIMP" HIS LATEST CREATION!!!!

Instead of spending so much time spitting venom at people, why don't you strap up and go to the woodshed. Last I checked, no one is too good to be above practice. I don't want to get into a pissing contest about how many of you actually play the horn to some degree of skill because that would be a waste of time. Does every grammy-winning jazz artist have to dump their axe and start playing this one for you to calm down?

Play the horns.......THEN TALK.

What is it going to take with you people? I have had exchanges with some of you in the past and they have been nothing short of exemplary. Why does this change now?!?!?!? I could give a rat's butt about who designed these horns or where they are made, or whatever. Play the horn BEFORE YOU SAY ANYTHING NEGATIVE.

You (I, We) will never know where they are made and you (I, We) will never know why you (I, We) will never know where they are made. This holds true until someone who really knows decides that it can be revealed. If there really is a confidentiality agreement and legal boundaries that can't be crossed, why can't you respect that? I can. I played the horns and I don't care if they are made in East L. A. It's very obvious that whoever is manufacturing and testing them knows what they are doing.

And furthermore.....If someone came here and posted that they were told where the horns were made and revealed it, how are you going to prove that what they say is correct? When I had the horns in my hands, nowhere on them was it stamped where they are made.

I know it doesn't matter to you people anymore, but I can't wait to get mine.

Go ahead.....rip this post to shreds.

Geez........

I just shake my head. I guess I'll go back to talking about all of the other aspects of playing the best musical instrument in the world with folks in the other threads. At least they don't want to jump through my PC and cut my head off at first chance.

Respectfully,

Minion

whaler

08-23-2006, 12:50 PM

The hair sells it, just ask Kenny G and well, before, Michael Bolton.

rgone

08-23-2006, 02:37 PM

mvspur,
Are you sure your last name isn't Atencio by any chance?Your way of wording sounds very familiar.

mvspur

08-23-2006, 03:09 PM

Nice try.....I don't hide behind anything, people. I'm not Jerry, but I know the man very well. My username, MVSPUR is actually portions of my real name. M-first letter of my first name. V-first letter of my middle name. SPUR-first four letters of my last name. My name is Mike Spurlock. I live in San Antonio, Texas. I'd even give you my address and phone number if I thought the exchange would be positive. If you want to discuss anything with me, feel free to send contact information to me privately and I'll call you. I don't pay for long distance so that doesn't matter. In fact, I welcome it. I've been acquainted with the saxophone for over 20 years. I know enough about the horn to be able to tell the difference between a good one and a not-so-good one.

This is so pathetic. I think it bothers some of you that someone actually has a positive thing to say about something SG related. I've played them. So I can talk all I want to. That's alot more than most of you can say.

For the life of me, I can't understand why you guys are so nasty. Ask very pointed questions to the people responsible for the instrument. Accept the answers to those questions in whatever form they come. And get on with life. The horns will speak for themselves. Plain and simple.

You put so much emphasis on where a horn is made. Why? I've played Mark VIs that are just good enough to hang a lamp shade on, or plant tulips in the bell. Does that mean that I should come to SOTW and tell everyone that Mark VIs are trash?

So, rgone.....what is your real name?

Next question......

Mike

Grumps

08-23-2006, 03:42 PM

You put so much emphasis on where a horn is made. Why?
No, the emphasis isn't where the horn is made, but the reluctance of the designers/marketers/minions to disclose same. Why is it important? Well, so far, we've only heard from one insider that the horns were made in the PRC. Do you know of any pro model horns coming from there? I know there are plenty of disposable, cheap horns coming from there, but that's about it. Oh, they're getting better you say... Why would they? That's where the money is made. Disposable horns. So you have to keep buying them. Now more top of the line horns are going to be made there? Why? Is it the epitome of saxophone artistry and detail? No. It's cheaper to make them there. That's the only reason. Now there's a new horn out, an insider claims it's from the PRC, and guess what? It ain't inexpensive. What gives here? The designer has gone to great lengths to actually cover up where the horn is from, both here and on other forums. That is a legitimate customer concern, and there is no need to play the sax to realize this. It is a serious red flag, and given the designer's history with the Unison horn, caution would be prudent.

Another thing I don't have to play the sax to comment about, is the shill marketing being done on this very site. The designer pretty much exposed himself as Gimish, who has plugged the horn here. Using an anonymous moniker to plug your own goods is both unethical and deceitful, and I will comment upon it accordingly. But hey, look what happens when somebody who has actually tried the horn makes critical remarks. First he's degraded; and most unfairly so. Then he's asked to meet a minion in a karate studio. That's par for the course. That's how they operate. Go to the thread here where folks post who they'd want to meet in the sax world. Gimish wants to meet me. Why do you think that is? Look at Randall's experience. He's been booted from the designer's forum, and he was actually trying to defend the horn. But one astute observation that sent the designer into a tizzy was all it took for Paradise Lost.

Try the horn, try the horn... You know, if it ever becomes available, I just might. But until then, I'm not going to remain silent while this site is used in an unethical and deceitful manner. What I'm afraid of is that people aren't going to be able to try the horn, other than at trade shows, and they'll have to order them sight unseen, like the Unison experience. We all know how that went. And if you've forgotten? Well, go to alt.music.saxophone and search under the designer's name (yeah you too Gary... go search why don't you). Not only will you find documented experiences by folks using their full names in regard to business dealings with the designer (none of which to my knowledge ever led to a viable defamation claim), but you will also find the designer himself spitting venom at respected folks from this very site, and often in a most profane manner. If you can do that and still respect this character, and defend his marketing on this site, then in my opinion, you will only be acting to further his most disruptive influence on the saxophone community.

Morry

08-23-2006, 03:50 PM

Yeah, what he said.

rgone

08-23-2006, 04:31 PM

YEA I HAVE ANOTHER QUESTION
MVSPUR,DID YOU TAKE YOUR HIGH BLOOD PRESSURE MEDS. THIS MORNING???
A simple "NO" answer would had been sufficient,on the name question.
You seem like you're about to have a massive heart attack,brotha man.As for your comment about MK VIs..,,,ouucchh(yea right).THEY/THEM/US/WE/I don't give a rat's a** about your comment about MK VIs,you probably never played a MK VI in your live anyway. You need to settle down brotha, take a deep breath, take your meds. more regularly.There's no reason for you to blow a gasket,just because they/them/us/we don't share your own views.People are always going to have their own objective opinion.You seem to be already in combat mode, itching for a fight.Over a forum discussion as to where a certain sax was manufactured???WOW, I meant that question I threw at you as a joke,I didn't think you'd get all bent out of shape and blow a gasket.By the way, I really care less what your name is,and may I say that never had any bad comments or opinions about the LA saxes.
:walk: THIS IS WHERE I GET OFF THE BUS

Al Stevens

08-23-2006, 04:52 PM

My name is Mike Spurlock. I live in San Antonio, Texas.
But where were you made? :)

rgone

08-23-2006, 05:01 PM

ALVEGASAX;
Yes ,it's me brotha man.Sorry, I couldn't make it to the party class reunion.I didn't even know that Master Valdemar was back in town. I thought that he was still in south America.I'll drop by his dojo and pay my respects.Thanks for the loaner,couldn't had made that unexpected gig without it.I'll have that tenor here when you drop by and pick it up.

By the way, this thread has really turned nasty, hasn't it?

Al Stevens

08-23-2006, 05:03 PM

My bad! I had this thread confused with another. Please disregard this stupid message.

In case nobody noticed, this thread was significantly edited a short time ago, eliminating a number of contentious postings and other postings that made no sense out of context of the deleted contentious postings. Apparently the MFWIC (moderating fellow who's in charge) or one of his associates didn't like how things were going.

I don't like when that happens, because I find these spirited exchanges far more entertaining than the usual pablum about what mouthpiece sounds good on a slide kazoo and who plays Rocky Top better than who else. But I saw it coming.

I see it coming again. :|

Stacey

08-23-2006, 05:08 PM

To some people, it really does make a difference where a product is made.

There are people who avoid goods made in Cuba if possible, because they don't like Castro.

There are people who avoid goods made in the PRC, because they don't like the regime there and its record of human rights abuses. Other people try to boycott PRC-produced goods as a way of protesting the rampant violations of intellectual property rights that most of the rest of the world obeys.

There are people who boycott goods made in the USA, because they disagree with the current Administration's policies or with any number of US actions from the past.

There are people who try to avoid good made in certain South American or Asian regions because of the fear that the goods were made by children and/or virtual slaves.

There are people who avoid goods made in Mexico, because they are convinced that "those people are stealing our jobs".

There are any number of perfectly valid reasons why a person can say that a product's country of origin is important. None of those reason must necessarily have anything to do with how well a product performs, or how well it is made.

morgan

08-23-2006, 05:15 PM

Rgone, what city did you try the horns in and who is the contact there?

Thanks

Pete Thomas

08-23-2006, 05:36 PM

There are people who boycott goods made in the USA, because they disagree with the current Administration's policies or with any number of US actions from the past.

I was going to do that, but couldn't find anything made there!

;)

Dog Pants

08-23-2006, 05:43 PM

I was going to do that, but couldn't find anything made there!

;)

Ouch!!! Wish I'd said that. :D :D :D

I think that one's worth learning in all keys.

Thanks Pete.

Harri Rautiainen

08-23-2006, 05:44 PM

I was going to do that, but couldn't find anything made there!
;)US made items to be boycotted (http://www.cafepress.com/saxontheweb), if you are so inclined ;)

retread

08-23-2006, 05:59 PM

I was going to do that, but couldn't find anything made there!

;)
And what is the origin of the term "boycott", my English friends?

gary

08-23-2006, 06:06 PM

Chapman: Trouble at LA Sax.
Valdemort: Oh no - what kind of trouble?
Chapman: S'ody want know wha or horn maiked.
Valdemort: Pardon?
Chapman: S'ody want know wha or horn maiked.
Valdemort: I don't understand what you're saying. Well what on earth does that mean?
Chapman: *I* don't know - Mr Wentworth just told me to come in here and say that there was trouble at LA Sax, that's all. I didn't expect a kind of -
Spanish Inquisition.

[JARRING CHORD]

Ximinez: NOBODY expects the...Spanish Inquisition!

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b388/DrJazz_/Spanish_Inquisition.png

[The cardinals enter]

Biggles: Er.... Nobody...um....
Ximinez: Expects...
Biggles: Expects... Nobody expects the...um...the Spanish...um...
Ximinez: Inquisition.
Biggles: I know, I know! Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition. In fact, those who do expect -
Ximinez: Our chief weapons are...
Biggles: Our chief weapons are...um...er...
Ximinez: Surprise...
Biggles: Surprise and --
Ximinez: Okay, stop. Stop. Stop there - stop there. Stop. Phew! Ah! ... our chief weapons are surprise...blah blah blah.

Cardinal, read the charges.

Fang: You are hereby charged that you did on diverse dates commit heresy against the Holy Church. 'My old man said follow the--'
Biggles: That's enough.

[To Valdemort] Now, how do you plead?
Valdemort: We're innocent.
Ximinez: Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!

[DIABOLICAL LAUGHTER]

Biggles: We'll soon change your mind about that!

:D

Stacey

08-23-2006, 06:11 PM

I was going to do that, but couldn't find anything made there!

;)

:D

Too good.

Grumps

08-23-2006, 06:16 PM

Oh geeze... now we've got Gary playing the victim for them, though I'd have preferred a cogent argument in response. Those posts aren't being deleted. All mine are here.

retread

08-23-2006, 06:17 PM

Not offered in defense of Steve Goodson, but as a perspective on nation of origin:

I can remember when Japanese imports were considered cheap imitations, most of dubious quality. When Japanese cars were first imported I knew several first generation Toyota dealers. One had a lawn tractor store. The others were used car dealers who couldn't afford a "real" automotive franchise. Guess who's making money now.

Most SOTW members will remember the early Hyundais. They were cheap, but not known for reliability or durability. The early dealers usually sold other lines, and steered their good customers away from Hyundai. The new Hyundais are praised for quality by the automotive press.

Of course, the Yugo was so bad the source country dissolved from embarrassment.

For most saxophonists the first Japanese saxes were junk. Then the Taiwanese saxes. Now the Chinese. With manufacturing resources and dedication to quality I suspect good saxes can be made almost anywhere.

Sax Hut

08-23-2006, 06:30 PM

Interesting or not, no saxes are made in the US any longer (presumably due not to a lack of dedication to quality, but to shareholders' bottom lines), and given a choice between a Taiwanese make or most any of the models made in the US over the past couple of decades, I think I'd be unpatriotic. They've got the technology and craftsmanship to make anything you might want in a sax these days, and chances are those are assets that can be reproduced fairly readily (with a little time) on the mainland.

I don't get the impression that this thread was focused on where the SG horns are made, or any insistence that the horns have to be crap if they come from PRC, but on why the marketers wish to keep that a secret? Perhaps it boils down to some embarrassment over the hefty margins to be made? Naaaaah.... so what else is new?

I thank Morgan for providing his straightforward review of the horn. As for me, if they ever come to market, I suppose one will run across my hands someday. Until then....

Grumps

08-23-2006, 06:33 PM

Now the Chinese. With manufacturing resources and dedication to quality I suspect good saxes can be made almost anywhere.
Dedication to quality? It has nothing to do with quality, but with price. And why? Well, look at China's form of government and the state of their workers. Can you still compare that with the Japanese? Well, even if you believe that decent horns can be made in China, don't you also believe it would be unethical to cover up same and price your horns on par with those made by more reliable nation states?

retread

08-23-2006, 07:09 PM

if you believe that decent horns can be made in China, don't you also believe it would be unethical to cover up same and price your horns on par with those made by more reliable nation states?
Short answer: no.
Longer answer: there is nothing unethical about a vendor selling a product for what a buyer is willing to pay. And I really doubt the country of origin will be secret for long. The street price (assuming enough are produced) will probably be a fraction of the "list price."
Speculative answer: we have ample proof SG is an accomplished promoter. The country of origin question has generated a plethora of discussion about his new saxes. Could this be deliberate? The old saw is "love you or hate you, as long as they talk about you." SG may be the P. T. Barnum of the sax world, with all that implies.
Reliable nation states: do you buy gasoline?

mvspur

08-23-2006, 07:52 PM

Sincere thanks for your time and explanation, Grumps. You have my admiration in the sense that you want to be the voice of reason and stick up for others. That's a good thing. I don't need a laundry list of who feels that they were wronged to understand your position. All I know of Steve is the 3 hours I spent with him that Saturday at the TBA convention when I got to got play the horns. I guess what I'm trying to say is that until something happens to me that changes my perception of the man, I will defend my position as well. Remember, there's two sides to every story.

I know a thing or two about marketing. I have a couple of pieces of paper that cost me alot of money and time that say that I do. Having said that, I am not "marketing" anything here. I'm not aligned with Jerry, or Steve, or Orpheus music to plot and scheme my way to enticing people to buy the horn by hiding behind a username and pour out honey to any sucker who will give me the time of day. Furthermore, I have willingly disclosed everything I know and who I really am. I've even apologized for not being more clear on things when I should have when all of this started. That's worth something.

I know Jerry very well. As I stated, I bought all of my horns from him. Through our interactions we became friends. It is because of this that I was afforded the opportunity to play these horns. I promised you guys a long time ago that I would come here and tell you what I thought about them. I have done that. At no time was I promised anything of value for being overly enthusiastic or anything of that nature when it came to publicly saying anything about these horns.

I have been criticized for not finding negative aspects to go along with positive ones. Fair enough. Although I have to say I did not have a negative experience. I fell in love with the 'gourmet alto just minutes after becoming aquainted with it. I chuckle because everything I heard up to that point in terms of hype was centered around the tenor. My experience with the tenor was very positive, but the alto stole my heart.

So I ask you.....is it through my choice of words here that I am being condemned for deceitful marketing? Once more....I need to stress to you that I am just an "average joe" that got a chance to play the horns and nothing more. I feel like I am being grouped with the historical angst that you guys have and that's not fair to me.

BTW.....with all of this "you're hiding" accusation, I just figured I'd put that part to rest. That's something I do have control over.

rgone.....I've played and/or owned many Selmer horns dating as far back as the old cigar-cutter. The best Selmer horn I ever owned was not a VI. It was an SBA, the VI predecessor. "Brotha"......I'm not asking for a fight. I just want this whole thing to calm down. This thread is such a waste of energy for us all. If you underdstood my point, you would know that I was not cutting down the horn, but rather making a point that within every line of saxophones, there are bad apples. The Mark VI is/was known for that. The good ones are REALLY good, and the bad ones are equally as bad.

I think the real problem here (as I understand it, anyway) is that folks have issue with Steve for whatever reason and it is because of that and that alone that any comment about anything that he is directly involved with will be met with angst. If the comment is negative, then I become part of "the group" and we all pile on him together. If my comments are positive, I'm the one that gets piled on because I don't share the same sentiment that some of you "insiders" do. Sounds pretty simple to me.

None-the-less......I wish all of you well. If we can't turn this around to something a little more positive, I'm going to have to respectfully bow out. I don't think Harri intended this forum to be a place to fight. There's too many good things going on here to get hung up on this.

Have a great day, all.

Mike

JNAORPH62

08-23-2006, 08:49 PM

Hello Again!

I would like to say: Mike thanks for all the hard work you did and sorry for all the beating you have taken for simply voicing your opinion regarding a saxophone that you truly belive in. and I as well!

To ALVEGASAX: Thanks brother for posting your comments. The true person who was in our shop has spoken.

To Rgone: At this point I do not know who you are and to my knowledge have never met you as well. I know for a fact that you have never been at our facility in San Antonio TX. So please brother don't post anything unless you have really lived it..........

To all who truly believe in what were are doing regardless of what has happened in the past with the designer My Kudos to you!!!!!!!!!!

But really folks These are really good horns. I am sorry that we cannot reveal as to where they are made. (Sorry Sir China is not the origin!) But please give one a try and then speak your peace whether it be good or bad, But please be sincere. Best regards to all lets stop the dog fight!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cheers!

JMac

08-23-2006, 08:59 PM

...I am sorry that we cannot reveal as to where they are made. ...But please give one a try and then speak your peace whether it be good or bad, But please be sincere. ...Ok, won't say where they're made, no biggie, or surprise.

Would you tell me where can I try one in the Baltimore-DC region? Production versions of the 'Saxgourmet' and Steve Goodsen models in alto and tenor, please, on the shelf and with a price tag -not a hand adjusted prototype. Thank you.

Pete

08-23-2006, 10:00 PM

Bun fight on aisle 12!!!!1111oneoneeleven

I, for one, have always said that I hope beyond hope that the new Goodson horns are the best thing since sliced Kenny G. Are they? Dunno. I haven't played them.

PLAYING PERSPECTIVE:
* I'd strongly recommend playing a Goodson model next to whatever is the other top-model LA Sax horn before you buy Goodson's horn. Why? I'd like to see if there's a serious enough difference to justify the price. I am relatively unsure if there is a significant bore change between the top models.

* NEVER, regardless of make/model, play a horn that the dealer gives you, hand it back and say, "I'll take one of those, sight unseen" -- especially if it's the floor model at a woodwind show. You KNOW the sample model has been set up as good as is humanly possible.

* I DON'T particularly care where my next horn is from, just as long as it's the highest quality I can get for what I'm paying for it. I DO have a problem when a dealer just "won't" reveal where his horn is made. If the dealer is "embarrassed" over who the manufacturer is or in which country the horn's manufactured, maybe he shouldn't have those horns made there.

Or maybe, just maybe, that same manufacturer makes another make/model under a different name that's identical and thousands of $cheaper.

UNISON PERSPECTIVE:
* I've been around long enough to remember Goodson's Unison fiasco, culminating in his rapid departure from this Forum.
* I also remember that Goodson's paid endorsers were posting here, almost daily, saying how wonderful those horns were.
* I also remember seeing posts from people that said they didn't get Goodson horns after paying deposits or having to wait for MONTHS before getting horns -- and/or leaving horns for deposit and then not being able to retrieve their "deposit" horns.
* I also remember Goodson lifting quotes from this forum to repost on Unison's website as advertisements, without Harri's permission.
* I also remember multiple negative comments regarding Steve Goodson Woodwinds, LLC on the Louisiana Better Business Bureau website.

BOTTOM LINE:
* Play-test the horn. Play test the other pro model LA Sax -- and, for that matter, other pro horns, too. If you think it's worth it, buy the exact horn you play-test. Don't put a deposit. Don't have the dealer give you a random different horn.

Again, I really, really hope that these Goodson horns are the best thing since sliced Kenny G.

======================

DISCLAIMERS:
* I'm not a paid endorser of any product -- but hope to be. Send me money and horns. I'll advertise for you!!!!11111oneoneoneeleven

* If asked, I generally recommend beginning students buy Yamaha. I've been trying for MONTHS to get a Kessler Custom to review for studentia, but have yet to get one, so I cannot recommend these, either. For pros -- and people that think they are -- get whatever you think is best.

* I also have not played any of the LA Sax, Unison or any Goodson model instruments, nor do I intend to.

* I know Steve reads all my posts, personally, and I expect that he'll either post a missive on his website or send me an e-mail. Sorry, Steve. Not interested.

* Random phrases guaranteed to make some posters go *snort*: garden hose attachments. Cryogenic treatments. Bed wetting.

Pete

08-23-2006, 10:06 PM

Oh. According to http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=319363&postcount=24, these horns are made in the PRC.

thehighend

08-23-2006, 11:08 PM

Well, so much for that mystery.

Randall

08-24-2006, 12:25 AM

Have I got an eye for fonts, or what?:D

But as I related in my first post, the country of origin doesn't always mean a lot in terms of quality. Countries DO go thru a process of growth and maturity in manufacturing.

I would try any horn to see what it is like, no matter the origin.

I want to tell you that two of the biggest and most pleasant surprises in my life were a Taiwanese 98 model Cannonball alto (an era of CB not known for its quality control), a Jupiter alto, and a later version of the Conn 21M alto.

All horns roundly panned and poo-poo'd.

I'd put any of those 3 up against anything in the world ('cept maybe an Inderbinen, and even then my CB would hold its own, admirably).

Stacey

08-24-2006, 12:26 AM

Oh. According to http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=319363&postcount=24, these horns are made in the PRC.

But saxpics, that can't be true, because that would make JNAORPH62 a simple liar. Couldn't be possible.

Bill Mecca

08-24-2006, 12:43 AM

*snort* garden hose... ROFLMAO!!!

saxmanglen

08-24-2006, 01:09 AM

I can always rely on reading some good fiction when there's an SG horn review. God, I love these reviews! Thanks!

Dog Pants

08-24-2006, 01:28 AM

*snort* garden hose... ROFLMAO!!!

Bill,
Where have you been? Don't tell me you've been working, or worse still practicing?
Lawd almighty, Bill, have you actually been gigging? :)

Anyways, back to the argument at hand, didn't the Big Man play a unison tenor on the Seeger Sessions Tour? :) :D

Grumps

08-24-2006, 02:10 AM

So I ask you.....is it through my choice of words here that I am being condemned for deceitful marketing?
Deceitful marketing would be a marketer coming here and using an anonymous screen name to plug their wares. The evidence is there. Been posted before. You be the judge... or not. At least you know why some are suspicious.

Peace

Harri Rautiainen

08-24-2006, 08:52 AM

Oh. According to http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=319363&postcount=24, these horns are made in the PRC.Here is the posting I was quoting:

http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=225152#post225152

JMac

08-24-2006, 02:34 PM

Hey, I'm willing to follow this guys advice to try one as objectively as possible - I just wanna know where I can?...Try one out and it will not matter where they are made trust me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I must admit, my first reaction to anyone who tells me to trust them, is NOT to trust them. The overuse of exclamation points further enhances that reaction. Finally, a marketing whiz telling me that this truly great horn may be the next Mark VI [er, in being over rated and over-hyped?] begs the question - do you even play the sax?

According to Mr. Goodsen's latest site, they are only shipping to places that have taken advance orders, not including WWBW. So, I checked Orpheus' website. More lessons in how not to market a saxophone. All the links to Goodsen's sites are to the old ones. To me, the real kicker is the inclusion of this extremely amatuer rip-off of an old ad -

"Son, someday you will make a girl very happy for a short period of time. Then she will leave you and be with men who are ten times better than you could ever hope to be. These men are all musicians, and they all play nothing else but STEVE GOODSON MODEL saxophones from the L. A. Sax Company."

So, if I play an L.A. Sax series II, I am only 1/10th of a 'man'?

And why do he-men need 3 ring strap hooks on a 'NINO :shock: ?????

BTW - add the 'nino to the list of production horns on the shelf I'd like to try.

As far as who is being honest where the sax is made - I assume as with most saxes these days, the parts are coming from all over the place to be assembled in another place, shipped to yet another place for final 'adjustment'. One would need to ask JNAORPH62 a more specific question than 'where is it made' - more like 'what is the country of final assembly'?

Just be certain that reports from the assemblers at the Malabar front are that, despite the double-plus-ungood marketing, the horns are indeed double plus good ;) !

Grumps

08-24-2006, 03:08 PM

One would need to ask JNAORPH62 a more specific question than 'where is it made' - more like 'what is the country of final assembly'?
Oh, I did ask him where they were manufactured and put together (the designer has stated that they were designed in the US with the final adjustments taking place here as well). His initial response was that basically, we were bad boys and he wouldn't tell us. Later he said he can't tell us. Are they doing this to generate buzz and hype? Perhaps, but if it turns out that the horns are really from China and that advance, non-refundable orders are being taken without disclosing this fact, then it would just be another money grab.

So how about it Jerry? Let's move on. What's the return policy on these horns? Are advance orders being taken, and if so, must you make a deposit? If you make such a deposit, how much do you have to put down. Would the deposit be refundable?

Pete Thomas

08-24-2006, 03:15 PM

Steve Goodson has already made it clear on A.M.S. that the country of origin is clearly labelled on the instrument and you can see the label if you go and buy one. ie it's only a secret if you don't buy one. It was also confirmed by Tim Price, whose opinion I highly respect and trust, that these instruments are definitely not made in China. I apologise to either of these gentlemen if I'm misrepresenting their words, but the relevant posts should be easily found.

Grumps

08-24-2006, 03:44 PM

...the country of origin is clearly labelled on the instrument and you can see the label if you go and buy one. ie it's only a secret if you don't buy one.
Remember the source. Shortly after this posting the designer began inquiring of other horns that had the country of manufacture on the body of the horn. Why do you think that was? Still, keeping things secret until you buy one may not cut it for folks that have to special order them. That's why I've asked Jerry about the return/deposit policies in place. I do hope he responds to document same.

Anyhow, if it's true that the country of origin is marked on the horn, and rgone was testing the alto models, he should know. Well rgone? Was any country of origin listed on the horn?

Al Stevens

08-24-2006, 03:46 PM

I think a marketing genius must be out there somewhere laughing his nether regions off.

A new product gets this kind of attention and discussion in a forum attended only by the product's targeted market? You can't buy that kind of well-focused coverage.

Given all this, who among us will not test play a saxgourmet horn at the very first opportunity? Just out of curiousity. Maybe hoping it's a dud and our suspicions are confirmed.

But then, if it does indeed turn out to be a VI killer, who among us won't consider buying one irrespective of the invective and vitriol about its designer and reports of his past business failures?

Whoever set this up ought to get a big fat bonus.

Grumps

08-24-2006, 03:56 PM

Also, Tim played one at a show, didn't he? So others that tried them at shows should have seen the same markings for the country of origin. So Morgan and mvspur, was the country of origin labeled on the horns you tried? I'm not asking where they're made, mind you (this time), just if it's listed on the horn as was previously claimed. Anyone else see one of these horns at a show and care to verify the country of origin being seen on the horn?

mvspur

08-24-2006, 04:33 PM

Grumps, thanks for asking. I have a question and for once, it is not dripping with sarcasm: Is my review of this horn as good as the next square on the toilet paper roll? I was beginning to wonder if I dreamt all of this. I'm not a grammy winning professional saxophonist, but my skill level is respectable enough to be objective about the subject at hand.

To answer: I do not recall that information being anywhere on the horns that I played. Furthermore (and you bring up a good point here): If this information was indeed stamped on the horn, all it would take is for one of you guys to get your hands on one, see it clearly marked there, then come post that information here.

Seems too easy to me. Pete, can you point me to the link where Steve stated this? I'd like to see it. This seems sort of contradictory to what we already know regarding disclosure of said information.

Pete, like you, I don't want to bring Tim Price into this mess, but I have to tell you. I agree with you regarding the level of respect for Tim. His ability speaks for itself. And his willingness to share his teaching and music the way that he does speaks volumes. I know that he did play the horn, but like you, I will not speak for him as that's just not a good thing to do.

It's nice to have exchanges at this level and I'll continue to participate as long as the personal attacks are absent.

Thanks again.

Mike

Grumps

08-24-2006, 05:00 PM

...can you point me to the link where Steve stated this? I'd like to see it. This seems sort of contradictory to what we already know regarding disclosure of said information.

You'll see it in here: country of origin stamp (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.music.saxophone/browse_frm/thread/baa0246a0d12b320/5323218d942b2bfb?lnk=gst&q=goodson+country+price&rnum=6#5323218d942b2bfb)
He may have said it elsewhere as well, but it's also here around the 90th post (if you view it as a tree). Looking back over Tim's comments, it appears he based his opinion more on feel than a label.

Bikedog

08-24-2006, 05:22 PM

there are two Steve Goodson altos on eBay right now...for $1800. Far cry from the ammount of money posted here as the price. Perhaps these horns are not the same ones being discussed.

Swingin' Cat

08-24-2006, 05:47 PM

Who is this Goodson person, anyway?

morgan

08-24-2006, 06:40 PM

rGone, what city did you try the horns in and who is the contact?

Grumps

08-24-2006, 06:41 PM

there are two Steve Goodson altos on eBay right now...for $1800. Far cry from the ammount of money posted here as the price. Perhaps these horns are not the same ones being discussed.
They've been up for bid for a couple of weeks now, with no takers as far as I've seen. Not surprised as they're claimed to be new horns, sold by a dealer, but no listed return policy; only a one year warranty. In the past, those warranties offered by the designer used to only be good if you sent the horn back to the designer; not something everyone would do given old history. Perhaps you can inquire as to where the horns are made, as the designer did say a buyer would find out anyhow. You could also ask for details concerning the warranty. As for price, I believe the Model VI's he's offering will be priced much higher. Like Selmer pricing.

p.s. Morgan, was the country of origin stated anywhere on the horn you tried?

morgan

08-24-2006, 06:43 PM

Grumps, I didn't look for a country of origin label when trying out the tenor.

morgan

08-24-2006, 06:45 PM

Pete

08-24-2006, 07:37 PM

*snort* garden hose... ROFLMAO!!!
I aim to please. One of these days I will make a mug out of that cartoon, too :D.

If anyone need an explanation of this inside joke, feel free to PM me. If the PM numbers get too large, Ill post a "sanitized" version, here.
Oh. According to http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=319363&postcount=24, these horns are made in the PRC.But saxpics, that can't be true, because that would make JNAORPH62 a simple liar. Couldn't be possible.
Dunno about that, Stacey (we must do "pizza night" again, at some point, btb). That post was from http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=26310, according to Harri, and Mr. Fenno may, of course, be mistaken or referring to just one model of "Goodsen"-labeled instrument: we had gotten onto the topic about how the Keilwerth SX90 is (mainly) made by Keilwerth, but the Keilwerth EX90 is made by Amati and the Keilwerth ST90 is made in ROC (Taiwan).

JNAORPH62

08-24-2006, 07:58 PM

Greetings Gentlemen!

Sorry I have not had a chance to respond to your questions at hand. I also apologize if my exclamations have annoyed you'all. It has been a tough Dog fight.

To Grumps and JMAC, Thank you for your questions Gentleman, Yes! if you are interested in trying one out we are taking orders. But,are not requiring deposits just credit card info and payment in full at time of shipping. Will allow a trial period but if not satisfied we will refund your money less all shipping and credit card costs imposed. Also, That is if there is not dealer in your area carrying these instruments. Otherwise I ask that you support you local dealer.

Also, It is correct the Steve Goodson Model is a totally different saxophone than the Saxophone we are all discussing about. This discussion is on the Model VI Saxgourmet Saxophone. And it is available in one finish Only!

I will try and stay on top of this Gentlemen, Be patient if I do not respond quickly. Been busy at Orpheus!

Cheers Everyone!

Stacey

08-24-2006, 08:25 PM

Dunno about that, Stacey (we must do "pizza night" again, at some point, btb). That post was from http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=26310, according to Harri, and Mr. Fenno may, of course, be mistaken or referring to just one model of "Goodsen"-labeled instrument...

I just meant IF that were true, what the implications would be. Just a simple case of either "x" or "NOT(x)" being true, but not both true. Note that I am NOT calling ANYONE a liar - I have no clue who is right, or who is mistaken, or who is lying.

Pizza... I still need to re-lose 8 pounds, and then perhaps lose 10 more beyond those. And of course my non-income still prohibits most restaurant outings... but except for those considerations, pizza sounds lovely. We should invite toothmechanic again.

This is all so hilarious... now that Steve Sklar has tweaked my Cannonball into adjustment and removed almost all of the "play" from the mechanism, that Taiwan-made horn of mine holds its own in playtests against the best new horns Selmer has to offer. I am PROUD to have found a horn that plays so well for so much less money than I could have spent elsewhere. Ashamed to tell people where it was made? Heavens, NO - I'm very pleased to help others save money the way I did. I really can't imagine why someone wouldn't want to tell where a good new horn were made. Help bring those overpriced Selmer people to their knees. Well, that's not exactly true. I can think of one reason...

Hypothetically, if I designed and built a horn that felt and sounded as good as the horns that companies like Selmer and Keilwerth sell for upwards of $4000, I would want to sell my horn for that much as well. If my horn were made someplace with very low labor costs, such that I was able to get it for mere hundreds of dollars, I would still like to sell it for $4k-$5k (after all, if my horn were as good as a Selmer, it should merit a similar price, in my mind). There's nothing crooked or particularly unsavory about me wanting to make a lot of money from my product - it's why people make products. Raising profits by finding cheaper production avenues - that's how business works. But if the world knew the origins of my horn, they wouldn't want to pay what I perceive as the market value of my horn - they would want to pay "$1 above invoice", or in my case "mere hundreds plus $1". So I don't think I'm going to tell anyone where my product is made. Sure, the markup is huge, but I spent a lot of time and energy designing my product, and lining up connections to get it made, and I'm a freakin' VISIONARY, for heaven's sake!

But that's just what *I* might do, if *I* invented an awesome product and found a way to produce it in an inexpensive manner. I'm sure that's a complete topical diversion, and not at all applicable to what may or may not be happening here.

Alrighty, then, back to my real life.

Pete

08-24-2006, 08:51 PM

I'm actually no longer allowed to eat pizza -- I need to update my "Where's saxpics?" thread -- but I could spring for wings or we can do Souper! Salad!

Anyhow, regarding pricing, the only thing I'm selling (soon) is my 2007 calendar. I'm going to price it so the folks that contributed pics can get SOME income, but I want to price it low enough so lotsa folks buy 'em -- another reason why I'm going to put the calendar out in big (somewhat expensive) and small (relatively cheap) sizes.

The quality, however, should be the same.

I do not begrudge Mr. Goodsen or anyone how much they want to charge for their services or products. That's neither here nor there. I would, however, be annoyed if I paid $4,000 for a horn and found out a couple weeks later that a DIFFERENTLY NAMED horn that's identical in all (or most) respects, other than the name stamped on the bell, is being sold for $400.

I *think* that's one of the reasons why people are interested in determining where these horns are made. China and Taiwan make a lot of, for lack of a better word, "stencils".

Mr. Goodsen has an "interesting" attitude toward beginners and he may be pricing the horns to reflect a "pro" market, only; i.e. "if you can't afford it, you aren't 'pro' enough".

(Bill should have another laugh at that.)

Now, I can also say that I've read many reports that it costs far more to make a Yamaha 875 Custom than they sell 'em for -- and cheaper than top-line Yanis, Keilwerths, Selmers, etc. The reason Yamaha has done this is to get lotsa pros to buy the horns and say how great they are, so Joe Average Consumer will buy a 275 because "Yamaha makes great saxophones! $Bigshot loves the 875!"

tjontheroad

08-24-2006, 09:02 PM

Yikes!!! What a dismal way to launch a product! May I suggest to all involved some fine reading;

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=br_ss_hs/002-4402816-0195258?platform=gurupa&url=index%3Dblended&keywords=branding

Stacey

08-24-2006, 09:47 PM

Wings are good, saxpics. Sounds very good.

As for salad, as I learned from The Simpsons, "You don't win friends with salad!" (There's a whole song and dance to accompany it, but that doesn't work well in an online forum.)

When will the 2007 calendar be available, and how do I order one? My new cube is 5x5, and I might as well be facing a saxpics calendar.

That's interesting about the 875 custom. Sounds like good marketing... a bit out of place in this thread.

Pete

08-24-2006, 10:20 PM

The Yamaha was just a good example. It's also sorta the way I was introduced to them: a long while ago, I needed an alto. I thought about pro. I heard good things about the Yamahas. I tried an S80 (II, I think). It didn't impress me. So I tried a Yamaha 875. Much nicer (to me) than the S80.

I got a 23, though. The next year I got a YBS52, only because the 62 wasn't all that much better and Yamaha (still) doesn't make Custom baris.

===========

The due date for Calendar submissions was extended to August 31, so the pictures won't even be finalized until then -- I'm actually still adding holidays and such (I added major US, UK, AUS and CAN holidays, this time, plus about 50 more significant sax events. www.lulu.com's got some odd "date setup thingy", so I have to add the events and THEN the dates, or they get shifted when it hits 2007).

They SHOULD be available in 11" x 8.5" and 19" x 13.5" sizes. They will also be ready to go sometime in September: I want to get my proofs and then I'll let the folks that contributed pics take a peek at a PDF. THEN I'll be selling. I also have to talk to Harri to find out how much it'd cost to get a banner. On another (non-sax) website, I've already got the rates.

carpenter

08-24-2006, 11:41 PM

Ref. prices for what's likely a Taiwan horn? Simple: Nope! "The next Mark VI"? Well, Maybe after VI hits of orange sunshine. Please guys..... whatever happened to common sense? Ain't so common anymore? If you're going to pay bucks, get something that's been around; something known.

Saxaholic

08-24-2006, 11:57 PM

retread

08-25-2006, 12:22 AM

Yeah, the price of Refs and the SG tenors look kind of foolish compared to pauwl's beautiful 10M he has posted for $2300..

Grumps

08-25-2006, 06:00 AM

...payment in full at time of shipping.
Shipping from where, Texas... or that other place?

Will allow a trial period but if not satisfied we will refund your money less all shipping and credit card costs imposed.
How long a trial period, and what do you mean by credit card costs imposed?

Do any of these horns have the country of origin stamped/marked/labeled upon them?

Stacey

08-25-2006, 06:03 AM

Yeah, the price of Refs and the SG tenors look kind of foolish...

... all on their own, no comparison needed (IMO).

I can already say "I can remember when you could get a new CAR for the price of a Reference horn today." I fear that soon I'll be able to say "I remember when you could buy a HOUSE for the price of a Reference horn today."

SAXISMYAXE

08-25-2006, 10:45 AM

Like a Martin! :D

Saxaholic
I'm with you Saxaholic;)

morgan

08-25-2006, 07:53 PM

I just meant IF that were true, what the implications would be.

Kinda like, IF rgone's story was a complete fabrication, then you would predict he'd not answer what city it took place in or who was the contact.

Saxaholic

08-25-2006, 08:31 PM

I'm with you Saxaholic;)

Great minds think alike! I've never been happier with my sound on any horn. Although I DID play a Chu Portrait model that SMOKED, but the intonation wasn't nearly as good as my Martin and the ergonomics weren't, either. Great sound and response, though.

Why bother to pay $3,000 for a new horn when you can get monster alto's for ~$1500 with fresh overhauls??? I guess I won't understand; I've been converted.

Saxaholic

Hurling Frootmig

08-25-2006, 08:49 PM

I'm going to reserve judgement on these horns from LA Sax until such time that I actually can play one. I saw an early prototype at NAMM in Indy and it looked like a solid enough horn. I'm not sure anyone needs the altissimo key but the market will decide if that is the next thing that needs to be added to the sax.

I didn't ask where the horn was made as I knew I wasn't going to get an answer and I'm not sure that it matters. If I played one of these horns or any other product from LA Sax and it made me want to put away my other horns then I would consider buying one. I have a couple of nice VI's and a bunch of nice vintage horns so I really don't need another horn. The bar is set rather high for any further horn purchases as I don't think I can sneak anymore horns past my wife. She's noticed that there's a bunch of horns under the bed in the guest bedroom :D

LA Sax just needs all of the new inventory out into the field and people will give their opinions. If I find one in the Chicago area I'll post my thoughts.

Bill Mecca

08-25-2006, 09:10 PM

I thought I read somewhere these were supposed to start shipping in March 2006, or am I mistaken?

Hurling Frootmig

08-25-2006, 11:00 PM

I seem to recall a much more agressive ship date as well but having worked with multiple suppliers and vendors now I understand how estimated dates can slip.

Stacey

08-27-2006, 12:16 AM

Actually Bill, they were supposed to start shipping "immediately after NAMM", that's immediately after the NAMM meetings in Indy in July of 2005.

Any day now, no doubt.

Grumps

08-27-2006, 04:57 AM

Henceforth the call for the clarification of which shipping event would invoke the full credit card payment; shipping to the customer, or shipping to the dealer from whereabouts unknown...

Morry

08-27-2006, 05:10 AM

I've got a hundred bucks that says sooner or later we'll see a post on here from a disgruntled buyer who never got his horn or his money back. Takers?

Grumps

08-27-2006, 05:15 AM

Forget all that... I'm ready to cast the movie.
How 'bout that Philip Seymour Hoffman guy for the lead?

Stacey

08-28-2006, 05:32 PM

How much are they paying the extras? I could use a little extra dough...

I could be "Man #6 in restaurant". It's the role I was born to play.

gary

08-28-2006, 05:38 PM

Simple question because I'm confused.
Wasn't the original SG Sax problem with Unison?
If so, why would the same problems with distribution, advertisement, etc. carry over to LA Sax. Are they the same?

Mark5047

08-28-2006, 06:46 PM

Well, that WILL answer the question as to whether it was a distribution problem or not. SG claimed that to be the real problem with the Unison SG units. Different distribution, different manufacturer - one common denominator. All this, of course IF the new SGs never hit the streets.

Grumps

08-28-2006, 07:39 PM

Wasn't the original SG Sax problem with Unison?
If you believe the designer's claims after the fact... but then again, when he first began promoting those horns, I believe he claimed to be in charge of US sales and marketing. At least this go round, he claims only to be an employee designer and artist liason for Orpheus, who he claims is the parent company of LA Sax. Thing is, do you recall the past complaints about deposits? Again, I believe those complaints were made against him; not other dealers and not Unison. Do you think he sent Unison all the deposit money he received? Because in the end, he said anyone with any outstanding problem needed to see Unison, not him. He washed his hands of it, and at that time, there was at least one poster here (trumpetbil) who claimed they still hadn't gotten any satisfaction. I would really like to know if he's taking orders at these shows and accepting deposits. If that's the case, then I wouldn't expect things to turn out too differently, new label notwithstanding.

gary

08-28-2006, 09:37 PM

Thanks. That is what I really wanted to know; no hidden agendas. ;)

whaler

08-29-2006, 01:30 AM

But they "smell like Hippie girls". Is that good??i

morgan

08-29-2006, 02:41 AM

... I wouldn't expect things to turn out too differently, new label notwithstanding.

Yeah. Steve spent a year designing the horn because his REAL ambition was to sell NONE AT ALL and he's really got his heart set on the factory never producing one.

Stacey

08-29-2006, 04:07 AM

Yeah. Steve spent a year designing the horn because his REAL ambition was to sell NONE AT ALL and he's really got his heart set on the factory never producing one.

I must point out that some months back he was talking about the new sopranino he was designing (I don't recall if it was a Saxgourmet Model or a Model Six or a Steve Goodson Model or what he called it). Anyway, my point is just that at least SOME of his new sax designs can't have been created with significant sales volume in mind - NOBODY gets rich from selling sopraninos!

But yeah, one would assume that his volume plans were higher with tenors and altos.

I haven't heard anything about the 'nino lately. Maybe the launch of the tenor/alto has pushed the nino onto the back burner.

Grumps

08-29-2006, 07:49 AM

Yeah. Steve spent a year designing the horn because his REAL ambition was to sell NONE AT ALL and he's really got his heart set on the factory never producing one.
You may be on to something Morgan. Are you saying there's money to be made in promoting and accepting deposits for a product that doesn't exist. Interesting...

Al Stevens

08-29-2006, 02:14 PM

You may be on to something Morgan. Are you saying there's money to be made in promoting and accepting deposits for a product that doesn't exist. Interesting...
Nothing new there. Think, "Jerry Fallwell." :)

Bill Mecca

08-29-2006, 02:33 PM

sell the dream....

Hurling Frootmig

08-29-2006, 03:25 PM

I think the biggest problem with someone developing a product is announcing it too soon. The same goes for writers - they are some who always talk about their next project before it is even off the ground. I can fall prey to both.

Harri Rautiainen

08-29-2006, 03:40 PM

But they "smell like Hippie girls". Is that good??iAlthough I am curious by nature, I think that no one should elaborate on this one.

thesaxman547

08-29-2006, 03:54 PM

was there something wrong with the original neck that came with Michael Brecker's Mark VI to make him go to a silver one? I think not.

I know a guy whose horn used to climb in the upper register so he got a different neck and it evened out his intonation. It's a silver neck too, I don't know if that has anything to do with it.

Swingin' Cat

08-29-2006, 03:59 PM

sell the dream....Dream the sale...

Pete

08-30-2006, 12:19 AM

If you believe the designer's claims after the fact... but then again, when he first began promoting those horns, I believe he claimed to be in charge of US sales and marketing. At least this go round, he claims only to be an employee designer and artist liason for Orpheus, who he claims is the parent company of LA Sax. Thing is, do you recall the past complaints about deposits? Again, I believe those complaints were made against him; not other dealers and not Unison. Do you think he sent Unison all the deposit money he received? Because in the end, he said anyone with any outstanding problem needed to see Unison, not him. He washed his hands of it, and at that time, there was at least one poster here (trumpetbil) who claimed they still hadn't gotten any satisfaction. I would really like to know if he's taking orders at these shows and accepting deposits. If that's the case, then I wouldn't expect things to turn out too differently, new label notwithstanding.
You can also search this website for further details. I believe the title was "V.P. of US Sales and Distribution" along with "Chief Designer" and a couple others.

While it's very possible and probable that there were distribution issues with Unison -- especially as that marque no longer exists -- one of the problems is that Goodsen handled the situation badly, especially as he and his family just "happened" to get sick and then Goodsen would drop out of sight for weeks at a time -- even though there were reports here and there that he was at a convention or conference or something.

The timing was ... curious.

Again, you can certainly give Goodsen the benefit of the doubt regarding all the things with the Unison horn and all events that surrounded them. Please do. My purpose in posting in this topic is to say,

=============

"There were a lot of reported problems with Goodsen with his Unison horns and he engendered a lot of bad feelings here and on various other sax fora. I cannot comment on the quality or playability of any of his horns or services, but I'd caution you buying directly from him and/or putting a deposit on any horn offered buy him: if you play-test one of his horns and like it, pay for it there and walk out of the shop with it in your hand: don't even let the dealer take it and wrap it for you. I, personally, would neither buy Goodsen's instruments or services based on the posts I've seen, Goodsen's e-mails to me and others, entire websites dedicated to talking about problems with Goodsen's business ventures, and his negative reputation with the NO Better Business Bureau.

"Additionally, Goodsen has been alleged to post here and elsewhere under different usernames to promote his products/services (see earlier comments from other posters regarding 'Hornsmasher', 'Lomar Manx', 'Gimish' and others), so reviews of his products/services should be approached warily.

"If you play-test the horn and think it's great, fine with me. However, even if the horn is the best thing since sliced Kenny G, I, personally, could not recommend one because of the problems other folks have reported."

=============

That about sums it up. I could post more detail, but it'd just be gilding the above.

P.S. Why am I thinking about Nirvana songs?

whaler

08-30-2006, 01:08 AM

Although I am curious by nature, I think that no one should elaborate on this one.
Yeah, I guess that would be another thread on another forum.

morgan

08-30-2006, 01:23 AM

he and his family just "happened" to get sick

Remind me to laugh when you next break your leg, you callous cold-hearted b*****d.

Grumps

08-30-2006, 04:03 AM

Morgan...
If you could witness the years of vitriol spewed forth by the one you support, perhaps you could understand what might make an otherwise altar boy callous and cold-hearted. I've actually received one of those profane e-mails Pete is talking about. It was sent to shut me up. To threaten me with being shadowed at gigs. Expose me, if you will. It had the opposite effect of course. So much so that he publicly denied sending it to me, accusing me of online forgery; so I then had first hand knowledge that he is a liar. Such was confirmed once again when he misled the alt.music.saxophone newsgroup telling them I wasn't an attorney, when he knew better, in an effort to force me to give up my anonymity there. Thing was, I was never anonymous. People know who I am. People that want to know, or need to know. So he really had no power over me and I could continue to speak the truth and help those who claimed were wronged by him. I really do hope Morgan that you simply just don't know the man and that you protect him out of ignorance, and that you're not a willing co-conspirator. Believe it or not, I once stood up for him on this site, on some mundane point. But the one day I offered assistance to someone who needed help getting a refund, well... then a group here maligned me. Links were posted with personal information concerning my family. Then of course the e-mail. Now in the years that followed, I made my peace with most. Even tried a truce on alt.music.saxophone with the ringleader, but his petulant online behavior and what I believe to be shill marketing tactics need to be addressed. Thankfully, they can be. Right here. Right now.

Morry

08-30-2006, 05:30 AM

Ok, so I'm thinking about an experiment. One that would take forum participation.

There are a couple of Steve Goodson saxes selling on ebay. Looks like the sale price might be somewhere between $1200 and $1800. If I could find 11 or so folks who are interested in trying out the horns, we could each kick in a 'C' note. We could each keep it a week and then pass it on to the next guy on the list.

At the end of the experiment, if no one in the group wanted to buy us out (at a reduced price), then we sell it for what we can get.

At the most you lose $100, and we all get to see if these SG horns are hype or the real thing. At the very least, if we don't like them, we can come back here and trash them with gusto, having actually played them ourselves.

Any takers? BTW, I know the Saxgourmet horn is a different animal, although I wonder how much of it engineering and manufacturing it actually shares.

odsum25

08-30-2006, 05:54 AM

Interesting idea, though I don't know if it could be brought to fruition. Opening bid on the ones I see is $1775 with a BIN of $1800. At $1200 it would be an easier project to get off the ground.

Chris S

08-30-2006, 06:54 AM

If I could afford it, I'd certainly give it a shot, and with some people that I know down here (wink wink) I could get some other opinions on the horn.... if you catch my drift.....

Grumps

08-30-2006, 12:45 PM

That idea was brought up last go round on another site. Thing is, I would never willingly spend money that would end up in that man's pocket. I also boycott any dealer that promotes his products and/or services; and yeah, that now includes WWBW.

Mark5047

08-30-2006, 12:57 PM

Pete

08-30-2006, 05:35 PM

Remind me to laugh when you next break your leg, you callous cold-hearted b*****d.
Considering I have (http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=37538) 7 broken ribs (still healing, but not healed), possibility of lung cancer, a partially collapsed lung, and the possibility of gall bladder surgery, you may laugh, if you wish. It's not like I'll make personal attacks against you, nor have I regarding Goodsen. I'm just reporting.

I'm also not being callous: there started to be complaints about Goodsen's horns, services, etc. posted in various places, then Goodsen and his family started to develop health problems and then Goodsen dropped from posting and reportedly calls made to him would not be returned. However, Goodsen was also reportedly spotted at various conventions, etc. promoting his Unison products.

If I say I have broken ribs and you see me out body surfing, you'd have a bit of a problem with that and point it out as odd, right?

In any event, what I believe Goodsen should have done is come out publicly and say that he had $whatever_problem (supply, health, etc.), apologize profusely and offer to refund anyone's money plus a little extra and/or knock off, say, 10%. If he took everyone's cash deposits and sent it to Unison -- which is a possibility if no horns other than the prototypes were made until cash was available -- he needs (needed) to take responsibility for that and make up for it. Just my opinion. That'd make me want to say, "Goodsen had various issues with $whatever, but he made good on 'em."

Grumps

08-30-2006, 05:49 PM

If I say I have broken ribs and you see me out body surfing, you'd have a bit of a problem with that and point it out as odd, right?
That's funny... I did just that over the summer at the ocean; as well as play league basketball and softball. Not sure just how many competitive summers I have left in me, so I wasn't going to let a cracked rib stand in the way.

If he took everyone's cash deposits and sent it to Unison...
And, theoretically, if he didn't, that might explain the distribution problems that occurred. Theoretically, of course...

ALVEGASAX

09-10-2006, 04:58 AM

Besides - I think Jerry came on here to say the ebay SG horns are not the "superterrific make you want to sell your mamma to buy it horn", just the run of the mill SG model - I think the model in question is the Model VI gourmet model, (should that be capitalized??) and its not on ebay since I think they are just talking orders at this time...

HEY!! Idea for SG (if it pans out send a check in my name to your favorite charity) Why not sell rights to buy one of these on ebay - you dont have to sell anything except the RIGHT to purchase! They were doing that with the Pontiac Solstice (sorry, non US members - the Solstice is an automobile that generated some excitement that made people want to pay more than list price to purchase, so some capitalists took advantage of this by offering the RIGHT to get their place in line and buy it, but I digress......)

In case you cant read between the lines, I am now pulling my tongue from my cheek and getting ready for work. Y'all have a great day!
There are actually 2 models( the model 6 and the Sax Gourmet model.The ones that are on e-bay are the steve goodson UNISON SAXOPHONES not the L A SAX STEVE GOODSON models.It's uderstandable why it gets kind of comfusing ,with 2 different companies carrying the steve goodson name on their saxes.The guy also claims that his saxes are not LA SAXES,that LA only distributes them (a bit of ungratefull ego,I guess).I tried both their saxes but at the time ,I thought they were actually LA SAXES.I am a fan of the LA SAXES,I think that LA makes a great horn for the low price.I always perceived steve as the guy that looks like the fat blonde woman that ate the cake and the house too,and now wants to eat the town,more like the Godzilla movie.TAKE IT HOME, BLUES IN CONCERT B.......AND 1 AND 2 AND.....8-) :glasses1: :glasses7: :walk:

Note from Gandalfe: Fixed formatting problem, no text changes.

ALVEGASAX

09-10-2006, 05:07 AM

SORRY, the model vi "is the Saxgourmet model"the other one is the steve goodson model.See how confusing it can get.The difference between the two is that the vi does not come with the altisimo key nor the high G or the high F#.It is made with a high copper content.

Mark5047

09-10-2006, 01:43 PM

AustinTenor

09-20-2006, 11:54 PM

I just got my Saxgourmet tenor yesterday. I'm lovin' it!

retread

09-21-2006, 12:10 AM

Another first-time poster on an SG thread. Who would expect that?

Doctormyeyes

09-21-2006, 01:28 AM

I'm a relative newcomer. I've never heard of Steve Goodson, and you've got me intrigued as to why everyone hates him so much. I gather that in the past he has taken orders for stuff that was never delivered. Sounds like his personal style has p***d any number of you off, as well. I did Google him, though, and kind of like the hair.

Nevertheless, sounds like it actually could be a good sax, and I can't see why it matters where it's made. Probably my underpants come from China, too, and I'm as intimate with them as I am with my sax. WWBW has it listed for $2995 (the sax, not my underpants). I understand they have a liberal return policy, so might be worth checking out. What's to lose?

Bernards20040

09-21-2006, 01:51 AM

Another first-time poster on an SG thread. Who would expect that?

He ("voldermort") can't be that stupid surely, he has been caught out so many times

Chris S

09-21-2006, 06:11 AM

He's not. AustinTenor is legit. Welcome aboard!

gary

09-21-2006, 10:27 AM

You know what, guys? I respect many on this forum and listen to you folks even when I disagree. But, and with all due respect, maybe it's time someone said:
ENOUGH!

I'm fed up with newbies who have any kind of positive words about anything touched by SG, being "welcomed" with accusations and sarcasm. Don't you think you've made your points by now?

"You have done enough. Have you no sense of decency sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?"

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b388/DrJazz_/welch_mccarthy.jpg

;)

Dog Pants

09-21-2006, 12:39 PM

"YOU WANT THE TRUTH???...YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!"

SAXISMYAXE

09-21-2006, 12:54 PM

They weren't kidding when they said "a picture paints a thousand words", were they?!:twisted:

retread

09-21-2006, 03:34 PM

:oops: Good point, Gary.

AustinTenor, please let me start again. What do you like most about your new tenor? How does it compare other tenors you've played? What most influenced you to pick the Saxgourmet tenor?

AustinTenor

09-21-2006, 04:44 PM

My last horn, a black lacqered Selmer Super 80 SII, was stolen in April. I had gotten a Unison neck for it that was designed by Steve Goodson and was given to me by my teacher, Richard Fenno, who has known Steve for many years.I was very impressed with the way the Unison neck "focused" the sound of my Selmer, and when I needed to get a new horn, I decided to go for the Saxgourmet. Hell, why not? I can afford it. I promise that I'll let you know if I decide I don't like it, but don't hold your breath.

Anybody who doubts my veracity can come hear my band and check out the horn at the "Earful of Texas" Music Festival in Hubbard on Saturday, September 30th. Whatever!

Grumps

09-21-2006, 05:09 PM

Welcome AustinTenor.
Is it shown anywhere on the horn where it is made? Rick Fenno came here and said they were made in the PRC. The designer, when dealing with the question in the past, stated that buyers will know where they're made, but wouldn't tell anyone publicly ahead of time. Do you know where they are made, and if so, can you tell us?

Gary,
You're dead wrong. All first time posters who come here with product reviews should be scrutinized; no matter what the product is or who made it. You have no problem pointing out to newbies that they shouldn't dare bother you with a question when they can search back three years for an answer, so it seems a bit odd that you'd be trying to shelter their sensitivities in this instance.

AustinTenor

09-21-2006, 05:32 PM

gary

09-21-2006, 05:41 PM

IMO there's a difference between asking for clarification and an on-going vendetta that blasts anyone caught in the cross-fire right out of the saddle. For the last few months, at least, many reaction to newcomer's pro-SG comments have taken on more flavour of the latter than the former.

Regarding my infamy as the "search-button-guy" anyone familiar with my posts of, perhaps, a year or longer ago will have noticed that I've been milder in the last year, overall, in how I direct redundant questions to existing posts on the same topic.

But the one has nothing to do with the other. I think dispassionate readers who have read the snide comments toward several newbies simply because they had the misfortune to state their honest pro-SG goods opinion, will find more rancour than honest enquiry, and I suggest it might be time to take another look at how this is done (which seems to already be happening).

Dog Pants

09-21-2006, 06:24 PM

FWIW, I think Gary makes a good point. Most of us haven't been harmed in any way by the nameless one. It's just become fashionable to treat anyone, with anything positive to say, regarding the nameless one's horns, as a convicted forum felon.
The whole topic, along with the G-man, Wynton, and several others, is the forum equivalent of a freeway pile up. Everyone can't help but rubberneck. Myself included. :D
Most of us just treat it as the running inside joke that it/he is. Some, lately, have in my own opinion, taken it to the level of a personal crusade. In this, I'm in full agreement with Gary.
I'm also in agreement with Gary on the fact that his own post wasn't a personal attack on anyone in particular and that he, like an increasing number of us, are mellowing with age, rather than becoming even grumpier. :) He's not the man he used to be. :D :shock: ;) :(
Rather than get personal, let's all go back to having a friendly, funny, open, discussion about the merits, or lack thereof, of the horn/s itself and accept that, like any horn, be it a MK VI or an Amati, there'll always be some who swear by 'em and some who swear at 'em. Let's just not swear at each other. Or do I have to send in SPLIFF MAN to chill you all out? :D

Chris S

09-21-2006, 08:39 PM

{SNIP} All first time posters who come here with product reviews should be scrutinized; no matter what the product is or who made it. {/SNIP}

My very first post here was in support of Alexander Reeds. Tom asked me to come here and post a letter that I'd written to him. The rest, as they say, is history. I'm not disagreeing with you in any way Grumps. No one questioned me when I did that, likely because there wasn't the emotional value that there is with SG. Tom Alexander posts here on occasion, but is not and has never been a columnist, and has never sold any reeds directly to SOTW members (that I know of). Perhaps SG is doing the same thing, knowing that there are many that post here that aren't big fans of him. Could be that if someone likes his horn, he asks them if they'd mind posting a review over here. Could be that it's one of his minions, etc. We don't know. I keep an eye on all threads related to hot topics (Kenny G and Steve Goodson are popular right now), and if something looks suspicious I'll check it out. I won't tell the public at large where exactly someone posts from (as that's against our privacy policy and furthermore highly unethical), but I will make note if it seems suspicious. Suffice it to say that AustinTenor is legit, as the server that he's connecting from would be VERY difficult to forge or mask somehow. Do I think that having a newbie's first post be praising something as 'controversial' as this is a good idea? No. But it's not my call. And I'm not sure that anyone that hasn't been around this merry-go-round a few times would know that SG's such a controversial guy 'round these parts. Also, if memory serves, AustinTenor has been registered for several months, and has simply chosen not to post until now. Should we continue to be skeptical of new posters that seem to come out of the woodwork to praise any product, especially one as 'highly anticipated' as this? Absolutely. But believe me when I tell you all that I check ANY poster that seems suspicious. A large part of my time on the forum is spent looking for these things, checking users that I think might have double identities, researching posting behavior, taking care of reported posts, etc.

Just all of you take a deep breath, I'm on top of it. I love this forum, and I've got it's back. And that goes for all 10,457 (at last count) registered members, including you.

Best,
Chris S

Gandalfe

09-21-2006, 09:16 PM

If you suspect a new member of being a shill or even the infamous SG (no, I don't know why he keeps creating new aliases on SOTW) feel free to use the 'Report Bad Post' button, the red and white yield sign on the lower left-hand corner of any post.

Be sure to clearly state your objections or suspicions and let the SOTW staff look into the matter. That's what you pay us for and you can spend more time learning and/or helping other SOTW citizens with sax-related questions. 8-)

Pete

09-21-2006, 11:12 PM

I've just reported Gandalfe. I've never really trusted him: the beady eyes in that avatar. The constant misspellings. He also works for the devil himself. I have proof: just ask him.

==============

I've got 10 minutes before my computers are finished "thinking", so I have time to post.

I heartily agree with the, "If you think $poster's a problem, report him". Do it. Do it now.

The Goodsen thingy is a little different.

I've always looked at it as, "If it's your first post here and you review a product or somethin', I really don't care about your opinion until you hit a couple hundred posts and I have something to compare your opinion with." Unless, of course, I happen to know who you are.

There have been a couple dealers and manufacturers that I have encouraged to post here. I explain that we don't mind you hyping your product -- if you post that hype-fest in "New Product Announcements".

I've also offered to some manufacturers that if they don't want to register here and want me to post something for them, I will. I'll also say who's asking me to post, though.

In Mr. Goodsen's case, I happen to know that he reads every post here about him and his products, so if he really thinks that a different username or someone posting about his products ISN'T going to be subjected to scrutiny, he's sadly mistaken.

Again, I've NO opinion whatsoever as to the quality of the Goodsen-labeled instruments. The problem I have had is with the complaints leveled against him and his businesses and wish to warn people about that. I think I've done a more than adequate job -- provided, of course, other folks don't keep getting the threads deleted or locked. In my opinion that's the best reason to keep the tone in threads like these civil.

Harri Rautiainen

09-21-2006, 11:15 PM

Grumps,
I haven't taken time to look for any clues as to the horn's point of origin. If it came from China, that doesn't bother me. I never ask a woman her age or where she's from when I'm dancing with her for the first time, I focus on enjoying the dance. Besides, Chinese guys gotta eat, too!
................This is somewhat bewildering to me. SG did write that the way to find out the country of origin is to purchase the product.
Because the US government regulations or legislature the manufacturing details must be found on the product.

Dear AustinTenor,
I do understand your excitement of your brand new horn. Next time when you put it on the stand, take a good inspection of it for us.

Grumps

09-22-2006, 04:05 PM

IMO there's a difference between asking for clarification and an on-going vendetta that blasts anyone caught in the cross-fire right out of the saddle.
You can call it a vendetta, but I'll consider it public service. A search of my posts might also reveal that this is not the only vendor whose on-site promotion of goods I question. Anyhow, if you feel the questions I've asked are somehow out of line, please report me. Otherwise, you can use the site as you wish, and I'll do the same.

...the snide comments toward several newbies simply because they had the misfortune to state their honest pro-SG goods opinion...
Honest opinions? How many of these honest opinions have been linked directly to the designer in question? Have you been asleep for four years? Do you only post and not read? Seriously. You do this site and its community a disservice by coloring the issue in this manner.

No back to AustinTenor...
Do you seriously expect folks to believe that you shelled out about two grand or more on a horn and did not inquire as to the location of its manufacture? And you still don't know, having not looked over the horn very carefully? I find that hard to believe. Now the horn either has the place of manufacture on it, and you are witholding that information, or it doesn't, and the designer's prior documented statements are inaccurate. Either way, it's a legitimate customer concern, and if you're going to plug a horn here, full disclosure should be maintained. If you can't do this, it will be assumed you're just another minion, with your strings being pulled from New Orleans... or is it Texas now... either way... simply echoing the designer's recent public announcement that the tenors are in.

My very first post here was in support of Alexander Reeds. Tom asked me to come here and post a letter that I'd written to him.
Yes, a lot of dealers steer their clients here to post positive things about their products; and that's really the whole point. Some are above board, and others are not. The bad ones have even gone so far as to create separate internet identities to use to plug their own wares and services. Once caught, they should be banned from ever having any product or service of theirs mentioned on this site. That's what I would do if I were head milkman. But absent that, all we can do is warn others; and I for one will continue to do same.

Gandalfe

09-22-2006, 04:06 PM

I'm fed up with newbies who have any kind of positive words about anything touched by SG, being "welcomed" with accusations and sarcasm. Don't you think you've made your points by now?Just like playing the lottery is for the math impared, picking on SG is for the unimaginative. It's been done so many ways and there are sooo many other interesting things to talk about.

Grumps

09-22-2006, 04:18 PM

Just like playing the lottery is for the math impared, picking on SG is for the unimaginative.
And defending him is for the minions... or truly gullible.
Now which are you again?

Gandalfe

09-22-2006, 04:35 PM

And defending him is for the minions... or truly gullible.
Now which are you again?Jeesh Grumps, let it go. You are asking me to take sides and expect that if I’m not with you, I’m against you. Everything isn’t black and white, and to a large degree as the SOTW admin, I’m not really supposed to take sides unless the situation gets abusive, even borderline abusive.

If Manning wants to talk about how wonderful SG saxophones are, he should be allowed. The fact that he is a close and personal friend of SG colors his opinion a little. But until we know for sure who a new poster is, assume the best. If you want to report a thread because of some suspicions you have, that would be the right way to do it. Do not abuse our readers. The SOTW staff is willing and able to play the heavy if it becomes necessary.

Grumps

09-22-2006, 04:40 PM

Hurling Frootmig

09-22-2006, 04:41 PM

No back to AustinTenor...
Do you seriously expect folks to believe that you shelled out about two grand or more on a horn and did not inquire as to the location of its manufacture? And you still don't know, having not looked over the horn very carefully? I find that hard to believe. Now the horn either has the place of manufacture on it, and you are witholding that information, or it doesn't, and the designer's prior documented statements are inaccurate. Either way, it's a legitimate customer concern, and if you're going to plug a horn here, full disclosure should be maintained. If you can't do this, it will be assumed you're just another minion, with your strings being pulled from New Orleans... or is it Texas now... either way... simply echoing the designer's recent public announcement that the tenors are in.

Grumps,

I'm always amazed at the amount of people who don't read labels or express an interest in such things but they exist.

I believe Austintenor indicated that he didn't care where it was made so I'm not sure that he's going to look it up for you.

At some point someone on the forum will order one up from wwbw and let us know if this information is on the horn.

I've indicated before that I don't necessarily find this a deal breaker if the horn played great. At some point maybe I'll go over to wwbw and play some horns and try this one out.

I'm happy AustinTenor is happy with his purchase and I wish him all the luck in the world with his playing and his horn. Please feel free to take a look at the main page for a bunch of great information. I especially recommend the articles from Tim Price and Skip Spratt.

Grumps

09-22-2006, 04:45 PM

At some point someone on the forum will order one up from wwbw and let us know if this information is on the horn.
Yeah, that would be great if someone we knew and trusted could answer some lingering questions. And yeah... it's only lingering because some folks are hiding something. That they continue the charade in their first time postings does more to confirm the obvious suspicions.

Hurling Frootmig

09-22-2006, 04:45 PM

Do any of my questions in this thread constitute "abuse"?
Perhaps unimaginative, but not abuse.

Gandalfe, you have taken sides by coloring your commentary in this manner, whether you choose to realize it or not.

Gandalfe makes a good point about the issues surrounding moderation of the forum. The moderators aren't hear to take sides - although we probably mix it up more than most moderators since we're an opinionated bunch. The bottom line is that I have no problem with you continuing to ask your question about where these horns are made but I seriously doubt you're going to ever get a definitive answer.

Dog Pants

09-22-2006, 05:46 PM

!:(

gary

09-22-2006, 05:56 PM

Chick Barris returns - THE ORIGINAL BONG SHOW !:hippy2: :D

Grumps

09-22-2006, 06:48 PM

DogPants...
Don't ever imagine that I'm anything but relaxed when making these observations and/or queries. Knowing better tends to do that.

Kosma

09-27-2006, 02:05 PM

Hey Austin tenor, why won't you just tell us where the horn is made?
Even if you don't care, why not humor those of us who are curious about it?

morgan

09-28-2006, 06:22 PM

I saw A T's horn. It is clearly marked as Made in VIOIP*E)W(*F)(*)V(*()D*FS

morgan

09-28-2006, 06:24 PM

Dang, I tried to post and something went wrong with my computer. The horn was made in ;vv9903009387a0df098&(*)#&)#)*(@)(*)(*

morgan

09-28-2006, 06:25 PM

Hmmm... are the rest of you having problems with messages getting corrupted?

SAXISMYAXE

09-28-2006, 06:48 PM

JMac

09-28-2006, 06:53 PM

No, I only had that problem when posting to Goodsen's old forum :D .

Hmmm .

China
Taiwan
India
Indonesia
Mexico
The Czech Republic
The Keebler Elve's Oven

... nope, no problem posting any of the likely points of mfr. on my end ;) .

I do find the hypocrisy funny though. I personally agree it doesn't matter where a horn is made, and would brag about the deal I got if I found a quality horn from a nation not known for manufacturing prowess. But to say it doesn't matter, and then refuse to divulge the information indicates it must matter to someone...

be it the poster or whoever asked him or her to post the review :clown: .

Grumps

09-28-2006, 07:19 PM

I saw A T's horn. It is clearly marked as Made in VIOIP*E)W(*F)(*)V(*()D*FS
About as helpful as your review...

p.s. Hey Morgan, did you ever work out that problem you had a couple of years ago with a mail order overhaul by a well known tech who sent the horn back to you in terrible shape? Did settling that deal involve anything out of the ordinary, like making a plug or two?

Just wondering...

Sax Hut

09-28-2006, 07:40 PM

Hmmm... are the rest of you having problems with messages getting corrupted?

No problems here, it showed up as "Mordor" on my monitor. Should be a mean axe.....

Grumps

09-28-2006, 07:43 PM

Hmmm... are the rest of you having problems with messages getting corrupted?
That's actually a good way of putting it. Corrupted.

AustinTenor

09-28-2006, 11:23 PM

I can find no markings indicating a country of origin. Sorry.

Randall

09-28-2006, 11:34 PM

Is Vietnam a possibility?

odsum25

09-28-2006, 11:38 PM

Is Vietnam a possibility?

I was wondering that myself. I've seen a couple of Vietnamese made horns.

Dr G

09-29-2006, 12:09 AM

Still, aren't products sold in the U.S. required to have a country of origin marked on them?

Bill Mecca

09-29-2006, 12:17 AM

Still, aren't products sold in the U.S. required to have a country of origin marked on them?

That's what I thought, espeically based on comments from the manufacturer in question. Not that I really care.

Morry

09-29-2006, 12:17 AM

Still, aren't products sold in the U.S. required to have a country of origin marked on them?

Not if the horns never show up.

Randall

09-29-2006, 12:36 AM

The Cannonballs have little removable stickers that say they are made in Taiwan on the cases and sometimes on the horn. Maybe that is the loophole?

Morry

09-29-2006, 01:23 AM

Personally, I don't care if the horn is made in outer Mongolia, but if you're trying to sell me one, you better freakin' be prepared to tell me where it was built.

Grumps

09-29-2006, 01:43 AM

Is Vietnam a possibility?
I like their 33 Beer.

Hurling Frootmig

09-29-2006, 01:49 AM

I like their 33 Beer.

Never had that one but during college we really like South Pacific from Malaysia. Funny thing was that I had a room mate from Malaysia and he had never heard of it.

t-duck

09-29-2006, 02:29 AM

I've been reading posts on this forum since July. Between my husband telling me that what I've been doing is called "lurking" (which sounds so horrible) and reading this particular thread...I figured I should take the plunge and make my first post (like the new kid at school - I'm a little nervous).

I have learned a great deal from reading this forum. I appreciate the honesty of the members, how the moderators and administrator work, etc.

morgan

09-29-2006, 02:56 AM

About as helpful as your review...

p.s. Hey Morgan, did you ever work out that problem you had a couple of years ago with a mail order overhaul by a well known tech who sent the horn back to you in terrible shape? Did settling that deal involve anything out of the ordinary, like making a plug or two?

Just wondering...

I buy plugs from the hardware store and don't need any of them made. Steve Goodson has never done any of my repair work, although he has been generous with instruction and my own repair skills have benefited enormously from this.

You will obviously carry your delusions to the grave, so go ahead and enjoy them. We'll put it on your epitaph. "He never did anything useful, but he really loved hating Steve Goodson".

I re-read my review and it struck me as perfectly useful to people whose basic premises it doesn't threaten.

morgan

09-29-2006, 02:57 AM

Grumps

09-29-2006, 03:20 AM

I only ask Morgan because although you used to post here with regularity years ago, you've only stopped in to sell something on occasion and make a couple recent plugs; although as I recall, you own neither item you plug. My delusions can be attributed to at least two sources in the business that had revealed the nature of how internet plugging can work and how certain dealers expect them in return. Just wondering what sent you here, almost out of the blue, back to plug products you don't own and now poking fun at legitimate inquiries.

Or should I pay no mind to that man behind the curtain?

Bill Mecca

09-29-2006, 03:28 AM

ya know, its really a simple question, where is the thing made? It should be a simple answer but it seems impossible to get. I just get a kick out of it and shake my head, what's the big deal in answering a simple question?

I think most would agree it doesn't really matter where, as long as the horn plays well, it's just amusing how no one will tell, especially someone who (not you morgan) seems so at ease bouncing his profundities across the internet, and casting his venom far and wide at the drop of a hat.

Personally, Me thinks he doth protest too much.

Grumps

09-29-2006, 03:37 AM

Well, AustinTenor's teacher said they're made in the PRC, and he ought to know, right? So until someone with any clue whatsoever definitively states where they're made (other than the PRC), that's all we have to go on. Yes, the interest must be making the designer go goo goo... but until he answers legitimate questions, I suspect he'll lose business... despite his online promotions from those benefiting from his generosity.

morgan

09-29-2006, 03:44 AM

I only ask Morgan because although you used to post here with regularity years ago, you've only stopped in to sell something on occasion
Oh, THAT's why you ask.
Yeah.
I didn't post for awhile, so it's totally logical to accuse me of taking bribes.

and make a couple recent plugs; although as I recall, you own neither item you plug.

I don't remember any rule that one had to own an instrument in order to review it.

Just wondering what sent you here, almost out of the blue, The shocking truth? I posted because there may be musicians reading the forum, and they might be interested in a product review.
back to plug products you don't own and now poking fun at legitimate inquiries.

If I see any legitimate inquiries I won't poke fun at them.

JOr should I pay no mind to that man behind the curtain?

Oooh! Oooh! Goodson controlling my mind! Oooh! He be usin' dem ole chicken bone magic! Ooga booga! oooga booga !

Grumps

09-29-2006, 03:49 AM

If I see any legitimate inquiries I won't poke fun at them.
Where a saxophone is made is therefore not a legitimate concern in your mind's eye. Well, it is to everybody else who isn't plugging them, but thanks for your perspective.

Al Stevens

09-29-2006, 04:01 AM

They refuse to reveal where the horns are made. Shouldn't matter where the horns are made. But I won't buy one, won't even consider one, test play one, look at one in a store, or whatever. Not because of where they might be made. That shouldn't matter. But only because they refuse to reveal same without saying why and, therefore, with no apparent reason for that policy. That matters big time. If they stubbornly have something to hide where it doesn't even matter, what do they have to hide where it does?

I dislike deceipt and deception and won't knowingly deal with those who practice it.

Harri Rautiainen

09-29-2006, 09:48 AM

Grumps

09-29-2006, 03:54 PM

Yeah, it did seem like there was going to be yet another sort of first time posting of support for the designer in question coming after that second paragraph. Plugitus Interruptis? Who was it, Gimish or Hyman, that had to explain what lurking was before they added their support for themselves...

Wouldn't be coming from Cox.net would it?
Or perhaps T-duck was referred by saxduck...

t-duck

09-30-2006, 05:07 AM

Hi. This is the 'newbie' (my name is Tammi). This and other threads have made me very curious about something. I keep seeing the mention of 'high copper content' brass and even discussions about copper plating. Do you really think copper makes a difference in the tonal quality?
I ask because as a metalworker, the reason I would want to use a brass that contains a higher copper content (less zinc) is because the metal is more malleable. That means it bends easier, it polishes easier, and it even plates easier. Zinc is a highly reactive metal, so the higher the zinc content, the more preparation you have to do to the metal surface to be able to plate it (the process is often referred to as zincating). I don't make musical instruments, our business makes mostly custom building products (custom gates, hinges, railings, etc.). So I don't know doodly squat about making a horn...so maybe the reason for high copper content brass really is for tonal quality, but I have a real hard time believing that.

As far as copper plating goes...copper is so much less expensive a metal than nickel, silver, or even chrome. Not only is the raw metal cheaper, but the whole plating process is cheaper. Copper will stick to just about any base metal. If you have an alkaline bath, it's usually just a strike plate (which means it so thin it's almost unmeasureable). If it's an acid copper bath, then you can build some major thickness.

The funny thing about copper plating is that copper finds its own level in the plating process. That's why it's used under nickel (which is used under chrome) for replating vintage car parts, etc. You can have really crappy pitted metal underneath a copper plating, and so long as you're using an acid copper bath, you can build enough thickness in the plate to cover a multitude of hideous sins in the base metal. It buffs up really pretty too, without much effort at all.

My bet is that copper plating is used because it makes good sense from a manufacturing standpoint (cheap, easy, etc.).

I'd like to know your thoughts.

Dave Dolson

09-30-2006, 05:27 AM

t-duck: The subject of horn materials and horn plating has been discussed quite a bit on SOTW. This thread is probably not the place to get into it - again. But since you asked . . .

It is always nice to have discussions with folks who really know the subject. I don't, from a technical point, but I have played a few saxophones in my time and have formed some opinions. Others here appear to be more knowledgeable about the specifics of materials.

Plating, lacquer, or the absence of lacquer means nothing to a saxophone's sound, in my opinion. The material, however, may make a difference, but the theories are very difficult to prove - and to my knowledge, they have not been proven.

Subjectively, my bronze saxophones (ones I still own and play, and those which I've sold) seem to have a more mellow, warmer tonal character than my plated and /or lacquered saxophones. I'm not sure exactly what makes up bronze as opposed to brass or high-copper-content brass. But Yanagisawa sells bronze saxophones and I've owned a few.

My bottom line is that bronze vs. brass is only mildly interesting in raising my desires to buy - there is much more to a saxophone than the material from which it is made. DAVE

t-duck

09-30-2006, 06:00 AM

Thank you, Dave. I made the connection with the copper isue to this thread because I followed the link on the first page to look at the Saxgourmet saxophone and the one pictured is obviously copper plated. All the mention in the reviews on the other sites about the copper content and copper plate made me think...from a metal value standpoint, I would think a copper plated horn would cost less than nickel or silver. When the lacquer rubs off anywhere, the exposed copper will likely turn a mellow brown. Of course, all exposed metal oxidizes and turns some color(s). Regardless of all the controversy, the horn in the picture sure is pretty to look at. That horn really may be the greatest thing since sliced bread...but I might as well not look because I'm too poor to afford it anyway.
Thanks again.

Al Stevens

10-01-2006, 04:28 PM

But only because they refuse to reveal same without saying why...
I dislike deceipt and deception and won't knowingly deal with those who practice it.
First I will retract that second statement as it applies to Steve Goodson. I have no personal knowledge of or experience with his business practices. Only what I've read here. Consequently, I have no right to make such pronouncements. I apologize for doing so.

Second, I'll go out on a limb and maybe p*** some people off. Steve sent an explanation for my first statement quoted above. It makes sense to me. If it doesn't make sense to you because of some past history, there's nothing I can do about that.

The following came to me from Steven Goodson in a private email. It came without threats or bribes. He did not ask me to pass it on; that is my idea. I post it here with his permission. I do so as penance for having made unfounded negative statements about Mr. Goodson and his products.

We don’t disclose the country of origin of our Saxgourmet line of saxophones for a very simple reason: we are prohibited under the terms of our contract with our vendor from disclosing any information of any form or character concerning our vendor. There’s nothing more to it than that. It’s a simply business contract. Confidentiality agreements are nothing unusual in the business world. We made an agreement, and we’re keeping it. It would violate our Agreement to make any disclosure.

There’s no conspiracy, no deceit, just a contract which we are keeping. I’m sure when you enter a contract to appear, you abide by the terms of the contract. That’s all we’re doing. We’ve said this many times, and yet there are people who want us to Violate our contract. We’re not going to do that. A deal is a deal. I’m Hopeful you feel the same way about your contracts. I doubt you Violate them just because somebody not involved in the contract wants You to do so.

retread

10-01-2006, 04:51 PM

Al Stevens

10-01-2006, 05:23 PM

Sounds like an unusually stringent confidentiality agreement. I would think that level of secrecy would be imposed only if the manufacturer had a brand name to protect. Or it could be smoke and mirrors. I wonder when we will know.
It's common in other industries when a manufacturer supplies several brand names. Don't give one client a price competitive edge over another by revealing to buyers that brand X and brand Y are stencils of the same item.

The issue here was the country of manufacture, however. Maybe there's only one manufacturer in this particular country? Or maybe the inscrutable oriental contract verbage is just worded too broadly. In any event, it is now a non-issue to me.

Pete Thomas

10-01-2006, 06:50 PM

The issue here was the country of manufacture, however. Maybe there's only one manufacturer in this particular country?

There are at least four manufacturers in China.

Mark5047

10-01-2006, 06:56 PM

STILL the big unknown is - has anybody actually PLAYED one of these that has been around SOTW for more than a single post? To be honest, for me it doesn't matter where they are made. I am the king of the asian saxes - its all I own! But really, where are the reviews even outside of SOTW on these horns (apart from the 'nation and gourmet' sites, and what is the justification for the price delta between these and other similar instruments? (PUHHHLEEEEEZE dont hit me with the marketing blah that there ARE no other horns like this. Its a SAX for cryin out loud - you put it in your mouth and wiggle your fingers.....)

I think its a hard push to expect to get the same dollar for a horn that companies that has been making instruments for decades can command.
Sheesh, tell me it is a compilation effort between Keilwerth, Yamaha and Selmer or something...... Maybe then?? But everything is all unknown except for the distributor and the designer. And the designer has more than one negative review.

morgan

10-01-2006, 11:58 PM

STILL the big unknown is - has anybody actually PLAYED one of these that has been around SOTW for more than a single post?
Me.
Also, while AustinTenor is not an SOTW veteran, he's played around town for decades with a number of decent bands.

And the designer has more than one negative review.
Even the pathological Goodson haters don't question the guy's expertise, ingenuity, or design skill. With good reason.

Harri Rautiainen

10-02-2006, 12:38 AM

----------------------
Even the pathological Goodson haters don't question the guy's expertise, ingenuity, or design skill. With good reason.Says who?

One does not have to be pathological anything, and still question those skills and virtues. A "guru" who signs his own messages "Saxophone Guru and Visionary" may lack some vital skills.

Al Stevens

10-02-2006, 01:50 AM

In my opinion, the moderators should close this thread. It has run its course, and it represents an unhealthy and, in my opinion, unfair trend that shows no signs of running down.

Here's what's wrong. We are permitted to endlessly bash someone who is not permitted to respond. I am all for free expression, and I enjoy observing a spirited exchange, but either let the guy answer his accusers and detractors or close the door on the subject.

Respectfully submitted.

SAXISMYAXE

10-02-2006, 02:56 AM

I'm going to attempt to clarify, without prejudicing myself in the process, the situation here:

SOTW encourages legitimate discussion about new products and dealers, founded on personal experiences, hands on critiques, and known reputation/history. We allow anyone to post these opinions in a civilized and intelligent manner, which in my opinion most have done in this thread. The content here is not of a slanderous nature, as many who are discussing the "Cons" of SG and his products, do so from personal experiences and believe their arguments to be true. We will assume that the same can be said for those who support him and the horn. Frankly, unless this product becomes more available to the consumer, and it's specifics are published for comparison (yes including where it was manufactured), it's up for grabs.

Mr. SG's absence from this board is his own doing, never the less he is not the least bit shy about broadcasting his opinions (including his critique of this board) via all channels possible. We at SOTW refrain from doing so outside the parameters of this board. While many of us have our own ideas about this topic, we don't discourage the discussion either way as long as it conforms to the published SOTW posting rules.

We will keep the discussion going regarding this new horn, until/unless it becomes necessary to close it. Cheers.

saxyjeff

10-02-2006, 03:09 AM

Hi Guys.....

I'm kinda new here but couldn't pass up an opportunity to read about one of my favorite dart board targets: The SaxGourmet Himself.

Yeah I know, this thread started out about this sax. About the sax. I believe everyone has a right to know where there potential purchase is made in...regardless of any relevancy to what price it is being sold for or otherwise. I disagree that all asian horns are crap, esp if made in taiwan or PRC...Cannonballs can be great horns; or suck just like anything else. Yamaha came out with a Qline series (alto sax, flute and trumpet) while auditioning (taiwanese?) makers before turnning them loose on the high end stuff. For $500 bucks you can order an Q line Alto from Nick Rails music and you can blow the hell out of that horn. I blew one a few weeks ago. They're unbelievable (great back up sax/bar gig horn...altissimo very easy) and they are consistent and just goes to remind us that we cant always judge a horn by its country of origin everytime.

But Steve Goodson....For such a gifted Visionary blah blah blah..he's quite the conman in my book. 3 years ago: Me and my 82XXX MkVI screaming tenor took umbrage with a cement center divider in my Mercedes 500SL one very late nite at about 80 mph. A few days later I got out of the hospital and opened the trunk at the tow yard and took my horn out of its gig bag and looked it over. Started to play it and then found the damage.

I called up the Sax gourmet himself and he assured me that he would look it over and give me a quote. I mailed him my horn and he called me back and said he could fix it perfectly and re-true the circular brace (now semilunar) back to its round oringinal dimensions. I opted to completely overhaul the horn and he talked me out of the "magnetization" option as not necessary. I thought that was mighty honest and I told him about a Bari Conn 12M I just bought off BariBri on Ebay and wanted him to inspect it first before it came to me.

Several months later I get my horns back. On the phone he told me they were playing perfect. I get them two weeks later. Neither played. The circular brace is now square/oval. The tenor was missing original screws and springs (he replaced some with huge stiff stainless steel springs)....One whole entire bracket was missing.

The bari also wouldn't play and had a broken bracket that had to be resoldered.

I had to have Nick Rail personally reoverhaul it again for another $800.

My baby...I felt so guilty..what could I do? $2K later my horn was playing perfect again. I threw away the gig back and it went back into a hard case.

However...whenever I see the name SaxGourmet or Steve Goodson...I get BAD indegestion.

But this new horn...if it can do all that the original poster says it can then it is clearly worth several thousand dollars. Of course I would opt to spend a few hundred more so I can get the [edited by thesonandall]... Of course he would never return my calls....

Sorry about the personal rant..Beware of the conman...but give the horn a chance, despite the ********* endorsing them.

Jeff

Grumps

10-02-2006, 04:04 AM

Even the pathological Goodson haters don't question the guy's expertise, ingenuity, or design skill. With good reason.
I don't know if this gentleman classifies as pathological, but you could say he was certainly methodical... in documenting his claims:
someone questioning the guy's expertise, ingenuity, etc. (http://home.earthlink.net/~keithhenson/goodsonbeware.html)

Al,
Write him back and thank him for his time, but ask him who has asked him to disclose his vendors? I don't recall anyone asking him that. Perhaps he's confusing forums.

Pete

10-02-2006, 06:44 AM

Yup. Got another e-mail from Mr. G. He's reading this thread.

Amusing. I thought I wasn't an Admin or Moderator here anymore. He's complaining to the wrong guy.

Mr. G is allowed to ask Harri to resume his posting here. As of the time I stopped being an Admin/Moderator earlier this year, he has not done so. Under his name, at least. Harri and Grumps point out, above, the various aliases that Mr. G has used here, so it's not exactly like he hasn't responded.



Anyhow, on a personal note to morgan, I'm sorry that I offended you several posts ago. Please don't stick up for Mr. G: he can fight his own battles. If you have a problem with me, still, or wish to discuss further, you may e-mail me at saxpics@gmail.com.

I'm sorry to say that Mr. G claims all his e-mailings are private and confidential. Though, if you're still wondering about the country or manufacturer of origin for these horns, it was not included in the e-mail.

I will again say that I find it poor form to not disclose the manufacturer's origin.

How can I say this? OK:

I know there is a certain percentage of people that won't buy a horn from $country because either past experience, their own beliefs or the opinions of others have prejudiced them. Heck, I know people that don't buy Japanese cars because they're Japanese-made: they might have had an old Datsun B210 that was junk. Maybe the person's just a bigot.

However, I also know folks -- my wife's family, for instance -- that won't buy non-American marque cars because they think that non-US manufacturers are taking jobs from US citizens (my granfather-in-law owned an extremely large US-marque dealership in Michigan) -- even though both they and I are aware that Nissan, etc. have US plants.

And 95% of my Mercury Sable was produced in Canada.

However, I also know folks that boycott products from countries like Thailand because Thailand had a poor human rights record.

Again, I have no direct Hasselhoffin' opinion on the quality of the Saxgourmet, Goodson, Unison or LA Sax horns. I can only repeat posts that talk about them -- and there are many -- because I will not, under any circumstances, buy any Goodson-labeled products, nor products from companies I know manufacture Goodson-labeled products. My reasons have been described in sufficient detail, above. I cannot comment on any work Goodsen has done on my horns, because I've read the horror stories and DO NOT want him to touch any of my horns.

I cannot say this enough times to stress how important this is: if you are going to buy one of these horns, thoroughly play test it yourself, put it back in the case, and don't let it out of your sight until you've paid for it and get it home. Seriously.

64sax

10-02-2006, 06:52 AM

Isn’t Amati the only maker with a reputation to protect that is the sole maker in its country? But then one could surely say the product was made in Eastern Europe without specifically pointing to Amati. And as the Czech Republic is now a member of the EC, one could unquestionably say the product was made in the EC without specifically pointing to any of the EC’s makers.

As no such information is forthcoming, one can only assume a different point of origin, which AFAICS means that stating the country of origin would in no way declare any specific manufacturer, and therefore not breach confidentially.

Confidentiality cannot legitimately extend beyond that necessary to maintain it!

Hanson was asked about where its components were made, and the countries were disclosed. One of the countries was Germany, and when pressed for the specific name of the manufacturer in Germany, further disclosure was declined under confidentiality.

Here we see the difference in operation between a legitimate non-declaration under the contract’s terms of confidentially, as opposed to, in respect of the horns in question, what I don’t currently see any alternative but to name as an illegitimate non-declaration.

And why do makers require confidentiality agreements anyway? Surely it is because they (or other customers of theirs) don’t want to be publicly associated with the product or end product. And usually this is because the product being produced for the customer is inferior to products they produce under their own brand/s or for other known brands. Alternatively, they may not wish their name to be associated with their customer’s name, which could be the case here, but then one would have to ask why any business with a reputation worth upholding would a) do business with an entity they don’t want to be associated with, and/or b) risk a breach of confidentiality (it’s not as if it’s uncommon for confidential terms to be leaked)? Another alternative is that the product they’re producing is top quality but going to significantly undercut the manufacturer’s own products or those of more important customers, but this begs the questions: why would they want to produce such a competitor for themselves, or why would more important customers allow it?

If country of manufacture were truly unimportant, why is it so clearly such an important factor (of several) for consideration when purchasing, and why is there so much legislation worldwide governing the usage of such information? The vast majority of individuals and countries believe it is in fact a very important piece of information. Those who say that it doesn’t matter are either fooling themselves or think the rest of us fools, because such remains an important factor in both initial and ongoing marketability. A prospect’s perceptions are everything!

In respect of an entity offering a product for sale without being able to declare neither the manufacturer nor the country of origin, it would seem very unwise to enter into a confidentiality agreement which leaves prospective customers no alternative but to think the worst…and let’s face it, the reason for most product being unmarked with such information is because it is perceived by the maker or distributor to be a factor that lessens the desirability, and therefore lessens demand/price. Would any businessperson wanting to sell a product in the higher price bracket enter into such a deal? I don’t think so! It would almost certainly prove far more profitable to pass on any extra manufacturing costs resulting from sourcing one’s products without such severe contractual restraints of practice.

So, in this instance, is the designer/distributor a fool, and/or does he think the rest of us fools? I don’t see any other legitimate alternatives.

Grumps

10-02-2006, 01:50 PM

And why do makers require confidentiality agreements anyway? Surely it is because they (or other customers of theirs) don’t want to be publicly associated with the product or end product.
Now that would be his best argument... I can't disclose my vendors because they don't wish to be associated with my product. I personally believe the whole vendor issue to be a smoke screen; the theory of which (as applied to naming country of origin) is in direct conflict with the long standing trade requirements of listing country of origin on products marketed and sold in the US. Yeah, it can be a sticker, like the little Made in China strips of paper on cheap electronics cords, but I guess those can fall off. Anyhow, no vendor contract, whether real or imagined, is going to countermand international trade law.

gary

10-02-2006, 02:46 PM

In my opinion, the moderators should close this thread. It has run its course, and it represents an unhealthy...trend...
I agree. Is there really anything that hasn't been already said? If not specifically, then at least in content?

IMO there are some fine lines being crossed between constructive criticism and a simmering resentment and hostility; a tenacious unwillingness to let go and move on. A popular definition of insanity is "doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results". I think that's a good characteristic of this thread. I see nothing further to be gained by continuing such unrelenting negativity. It just ain't healthy and whatever positive and cautious advice and inquiry that might have been previously made, by now just doesn't reflect well on this forum.

Grumps

10-02-2006, 02:57 PM

Steve sent an explanation for my first statement quoted above. It makes sense to me. If it doesn't make sense to you because of some past history, there's nothing I can do about that.
Though past history is helpful in sorting out certain issues with this designer, it's not simply past history that has the issue not making sense. It's US Customs Law (http://www.washingtonwatchdog.org/documents/usc/ttl19/ch4/subttlII/ptI/sec1304.html). The designer has told you that he cannot disclose the country of origin as he's sticking to his contract. Well... the designer is selling these horns, right? Well, as per the link above, they'll have to have the country of origin listed on the horn or be in violation of US Customs Law. Therefore, whenever he sells a horn, with the disclosure label, he would be violating his contract. That's why it doesn't make sense. Though you may now be convinced otherwise... well... fine and dandy, but don't now dictate to the group that the discussion must be silenced. The designer has had his say. You've provided it. And nothing really has been answered.

Far from a dead issue.

Grumps

10-02-2006, 03:07 PM

I agree. Is there really anything that hasn't been already said?
Yes, the country of origin.

A popular definition of insanity is "doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results".
You mean like you telling folks to use the search button?

I see nothing further to be gained by continuing such unrelenting negativity.
Consumer protection is an ongoing battle. So sorry if it's negative in your mind's eye. I'm sure there are plenty of folks that would have liked to have read what you refer to as negativity years ago; prior to having to document their own complaints against this designer.

gary

10-02-2006, 03:21 PM

I'm addressing the tone and direction of this thread, and have really tried to not make any direct, personal comments, but rather to stick to the issues themselves. I apologise if I've been specifically personal. Grumps, perhaps you could do the same. I think we can stick to the issues. As I've already noted above, I have backed off of the search thing (and for the very reason you state).

Country of origin has not been said. Absolutey true. Saying that it has not been said, however, is hardly new - and I still wouldn't expect much in a direct answer from LA sax or SG; again - "doing the same thing expecting different results".

I share a personal disgust for much marketing, both in content and hype. I welcome anything that heightens consumer awareness and that successfully challenges and changes bogus marketing. But like I said, that awareness and caution regarding anything SG touches has been well represented already on this thread and elsewhere. So much of what has followed really is just looking like it's not taking much of a higher ground but going downhill. I just think we can do better at this point, that's all.

HeavyWeather77

10-02-2006, 03:29 PM

On a lighter note:

Saxpics, I applaud you for using "Hasselhoffin'" as an adjective.

Kudos to you.

The simple fact that this thread exists makes me skeptical of Goodson's work and makes me want to thoroughly investigate any product or service of his before investing money in either. Gary, thank you, you're right: anything to heighten consumer awareness is good. Educated people are more difficult to control or to squeeze money out of, but they make for a better society. Agreed?

Grumps

10-02-2006, 03:34 PM

The nastiest (and since deleted) remarks I've read here were actually from supporters of the designer. That they still continue their arguments might be spurring on the insanity.

gary

10-02-2006, 03:46 PM

The nastiest (and since deleted) remarks I've read here were actually from supporters of the designer. That they still continue their arguments might be spurring on the insanity.
:sign5:MAO!!!!

...no, really. ROTFLMAO!

grumps, being short on retorts is definitely not one of your shortcomings. :notworth:

Pete

10-02-2006, 04:02 PM

I agree. Is there really anything that hasn't been already said? If not specifically, then at least in content?
Ummm. gary, you obviously have been posting too much and not reading other people's posts: take a look at the duplicated threads in the Selmer forum, For Beginners forum or ... Hasselhoff ... pick any forum.

:D

(Further, if you want more input on closing threads, apply to be on the Moderator team. We've already had one here say that it's not his intent to close this thread. And the owner of this forum is a participant in this thread, too.)

I, for one, would rather have A thread that has ALL the information, to date. It'd make my life easier: if someone asks me about Mr. G, I can just say, "Go to http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=42597 and read each post. Follow all the links. Have fun!"

64sax

10-02-2006, 04:21 PM

To those that regularly seek to close discussion on a wide range of topics by a variety of means, whether that be by telling folks it’s all been discussed before and the search function is better than seeking up-to-date personalised advice, or by stating there’s nothing more to be said on a topic, and/or by demanding authoritarian intervention, etc, etc…

Is this not a discussion board? Is ongoing discussion not the very lifeblood of a discussion board? When folks have said all that can be said on a topic, don’t topics in due course naturally lose popularity, which may or may not be permanent?

I don’t think anyone could answer anything but “absolutely” to all these questions. Yes, as soon as no more than one person has anything to add to a thread, it will naturally fall by the wayside, and as soon as one loses interest in any thread, one would be expected to stop reading it.

Like everything else on the Internet, discussion threads are a pulled rather than pushed medium. Nothing pushes a thread on anyone. The answer is to stop reading, not to expect that folks stop posting or that the authorities stop folks posting.

And likely nothing will add life to a thread like someone seeking to impose his or her will on others. I know there’s a sickening global movement to curtail/undo hard won freedoms of all kinds, but that doesn’t mean freethinking, freedom lovers have to shut up and lump it, or that such fascist tendencies should be encouraged or let go unchallenged.

gary

10-02-2006, 04:50 PM

Ummm. gary, you obviously have been posting too much and not reading other people's posts...
It's the tone on this one, though, as much as anything, Pete.

Obviously neither Harri nor others have seen enough of this topic so I'll leave the sharks to continue circling - and appreciate their vigilance. :D

Chris S

10-02-2006, 05:24 PM

Obviously neither Harri nor others have seen enough of this topic so I'll leave the sharks to continue circling - and appreciate their vigilance. :D

Thanks Gary!

FWIW, I've at least skimmed every post in this thread. There are certain topics that I watch very closely, others I bypass.

Here are my thoughts (and SG if you're reading this, feel free to shoot me an email if I'm misinformed about anything, I'll email you first as you probably can't get to that info. If you add me to your mailing list though.... I will block you.):

I don't know Steve. I've never met the guy. The only time that I've been to his site was to check a serial number chart. I have no need for a repairman as I'm semi-retired (meaning I'm no longer majoring in music, but still play from time to time... that's another thread entirely though), and I have a repairman that I'm quite fond of and have been doing business with for a long time. He's not only my repairman and dealer.... he's more of a close personal friend to me. So I'm not really in the market.

That being said, I don't really give a flip about gear in the first place. If you look at my posting history.... I rarely post in any of the 'gear' forums. My motto is: If it works, then use it. I own two alto pieces (one jazz, one classical) and three tenor pieces (two jazz, one classical). I don't even own a tenor anymore. Had some bills to pay and I haven't played it in a few months, so it had to go.

So now that we've cleared that up, here are my thoughts on one of the major themes of this thread.

Where's it made?

I'm not sure that it matters a whole lot. If the real issue is, "Why won't SG reveal where they're made," then that's a different story.

Who cares where they're made so long as they play well? As many of you know, I play a P Mauriat alto. I LOVE that horn. It's assembled in Taiwan. It's probably one of the sturdiest horns I've ever played (aside from a Black Nickel Keilwerth SX90R that I had for a while.... I nicknamed it 'The Tank'). What's more important is the compnents. As long as you've got good components, then even if it's assembled like garbage.... a competent tech can make it sing. Case in point: Selmer. They're OOB (out of box) setups lately have stunk. Seriously stunk. There's lots of documentation of that here on the forum. But! Selmers are made with good quality components. IMHO, Mauriats are also. While they're assembled in Taiwain... they use French brass. That's the key I think. If they'd used Asian brass, then they'd probably be another crappy horn. Here's the real question that we should be asking (and it might have been answered already, I'm not gonna go re-read 250 posts to find out): Is it MADE by LA Sax, or are they simply the distributer?

If it's made by them, then I don't think they'll be great horns. I think they'll be good, as SG probably knows something. I don't know what or how much, but he probably knows something since there are still fairly well known people supporting him. Doesn't make us right, them wrong, etc. Just means that there's a difference of opinion. That happens in real life. The reason that I don't think that they'll be great horns if they're actually made by LA Sax is because I'm 99% certain that LA Sax uses Tawianese or Asian brass. I have it on good authority that this is true.

If however, it's only distributed by LA Sax, and SG gets them made wherever he feels is a good place using whatever he thinks the best materials are... then it might be a great horn.

As for SG not being able to disclose where the horns are made... maybe it's because of a contract, maybe it's because he wants us all to talk about the horns (no publicity is bad publicity etc.), maybe it's because (insert another random reason here). Who knows? SG does. And apparently he's not telling. So what? We'll all find out eventually (when the horns become readily available) or we won't (if something gets messed up with this deal like the Unison deal). Either way... doesn't seem to matter much.

If the real question here is "Why won't SG reveal where they're made?" then as stated above, maybe he has his reasons. Yes, according to US Customs law, it must be printed somewhere on the product when it's shipped. From what I understand, there are only prototypes right now. Pretty sure that you don't have to put "Made in the People's Republic of Who Cares" on a prototype. So asking those who've played the prototypes is a moot point.

Like I said, SG, if you're reading this, feel free to contact me (I'll send you an email in a second) and correct any misinformation that I've posted. With your approval, I'll post the relevant corrections.

And lastly, remember that my opinion doesn't carry any more weight than anyone elses. I'm an admin here, and that doesn't mean that my opinion on these things counts any more than anyone else's. All it means is that I have to deal with other stuff. I'm also pretty sure that none of you have ever heard me play... so maybe I suck. Could be.

That being said, don't any of you dare say I'm pussyfooting the issue. In case you didn't read the rest of this (lengthy, I apologize) post, what I'm saying is that the current issue that y'all have with SG is not a real issue for me.

And yes, the thread will stay open so long as you all play nice, which you seem to be doing pretty well so far. We've only pulled a handful of the 250 some odd posts so far.

If you want to tell me I'm stupid, please do so in a PM or Email.

Best,
Chris S

Pete Thomas

10-02-2006, 06:22 PM

Who cares where they're made so long as they play well?

For the same reason people now sometimes pay more for "fair trade" produce.

Many people care about where they buy things from for ethical reasons. I for one would not want to support any manufacturer that has employment practices I find unacceptable. Or they may want to boycott goods from a certain country for political reasons. (I think in another thread I mentioned boycotting goods from the US as a protest against US international policy, problem being the lack of US manufactured goods).

Other people may wish to boycott goods from a certain country due to the bad reputation of that country's manufacturers. There seems to be some prejudice against saxophones manufactured in China, in spite of some very good instruments now coming from that country.

Mark

10-02-2006, 07:05 PM

For the same reason people now sometimes pay more for "fair trade" produce.

Many people care about where they buy things from for ethical reasons. I for one would not want to support any manufacturer that has employment practices I find unacceptable. Or they may want to boycott goods from a certain country for political reasons. (I think in another thread I mentioned boycotting goods from the US as a protest against US international policy, problem being the lack of US manufactured goods).

Other people may wish to boycott goods from a certain country due to the bad reputation of that country's manufacturers. There seems to be some prejudice against saxophones manufactured in China, in spite of some very good instruments now coming from that country.

With China it might not be about the instruments, but simply their awful stance on human rights? The fact that it's illegal for anyone to form a political party or protest against the government there? How about the fact that they've occupied Tibet for 50 years and no western country wants to officially protest this for fear of "angering the Chinese"? Oh, right, Tibet doesn't have anything we need...

It's very hard to avoid buying things made in China, but I do my best. Some argue that buying from China will help increase their merchant middle class, and that increased prosperity will slowly bring increased reforms, but I don't think the government will ever give up its basic powers willingly. That would take military intervention, either from inside, or out. If I have a choice between buying a Chinese product, or one made in a friendlier place (even if more expensive) the Chinese would lose every time.

And don't get me started on the U.S. hypocrisy that "China is a valued trading partner", while places like Cuba are to be shunned and despised. Puhleeeze!

Mark

saxyjeff

10-02-2006, 07:24 PM

But this new horn...if it can do all that the original poster says it can then it is clearly worth several thousand dollars. Of course I would opt to spend a few hundred more so I can get the [edited by thesonandall]... Of course he would never return my calls....

Last edited by thesonandall : Yesterday at 09:55 PM. Reason: Pruning some sexually explicit remarks :)

LOL..Tesonandall. I stand by President's Clinton's definition of sex and maintain the innocence of my remarks...perhaps I should have filed a sexual harrassment charge for having my wallet "inappropriately fondled" from 2000 miles away by definite caricature.

Jeff

Al Stevens

10-02-2006, 07:26 PM

...but don't now dictate to the group that the discussion must be silenced.
I did not dictate anything. I have neither that authority nor the inclination. Please reread the post. It begins with, "In my opinion..." That ought to be clear enough.

In the meantime you and a few others get my nomination for president and board of directors of the Dead Horse Molester's Society. :D

Pete

10-02-2006, 07:38 PM

Pete Thomas and Mark agree with what I had posted?! If that's not a sign of the apocalypse, I don't know what is!

Grumps

10-02-2006, 08:32 PM

In the meantime you and a few others get my nomination for president and board of directors of the Dead Horse Molester's Society.
And you get mine for quickest retreat from a morally sound position...

Seriously though... you state the designer didn't threaten you, but let me guess... did he flatter you? I mean, told you he's been to your site, heard your sounds and that you're the one true professional player in a sea of wannabees and pretenders? Any of that in that e-mail? And not to put you down either, I'm just wondering, that's all. But I must take issue with your prior post basically saying that he explained the issue and it's clear to you; but if it isn't clear to someone else, it must be because of some past history. I've linked to the appropriate law. I've made argument that would show that if he actually sells one, he would be breaking any requirement of a vendor confidentiality clause that would prevent him from disclosing the country of origin; as the country of origin must be present on the goods. Do you still feel his explanations hold up? If so... please feel free to continue arguing for him... because that's what he's now got you doing; whether you realize it or not.

rim shot

10-03-2006, 12:24 AM

whatever positive and cautious advice and inquiry that might have been previously made, by now just doesn't reflect well on this forum.

Reflect to whom?
Newer members, potential members (and potential buyers of yet non-existent horns)... or even just any old lurker- would certainly do well to exercise caution in their business dealings- I mean, folks are talking about (potentially) thousands of dollars for horns and/or services... that ain´t just chicken feed.

Let the story be told... over and over, if necessary- there will always be someone who is out there listening for the first time.

And besides, we got hasselhoffin´out of it...
so what the heck?

Al Stevens

10-03-2006, 04:12 AM

And you get mine for quickest retreat from a morally sound position...
:)
(Actually I advanced to one.)
Seriously though... you state the designer didn't threaten you, but let me guess... did he flatter you? I mean, told you he's been to your site, heard your sounds and that you're the one true professional player in a sea of wannabees and pretenders? Any of that in that e-mail?
Nope. None of it.

But I must take issue with your prior post basically saying that he explained the issue and it's clear to you; but if it isn't clear to someone else, it must be because of some past history.
Exception noted. Except I didn't say "must be." You don't need to put words in my mouth. I can do that for myself. :)

... If so... please feel free to continue arguing for him... because that's what he's now got you doing; whether you realize it or not.
Not really. SG thanked me and sent me more stuff about his operation that he wanted me to post. I declined. I posted what I did to support my apology. But I don't really want to be anyone's conduit. I think the moderators ought to let him back in. It would probably make things more interesting and less one-sided.

Anyway, now you've made this thread about me. The only way to stop that is give you the last word. Play on. I'll enjoy being a spectator.

Grumps

10-03-2006, 04:27 AM

I think the moderators ought to let him back in.
Are you saying that the designer wishes to come back here, up front and as himself? That would fly in the face of just about everything he's posted publicly since he voluntarily left.
Except I didn't say "must be." You don't need to put words in my mouth.
No... someone else is clearly doing just that. Probably from that advanced level...

SAXISMYAXE

10-03-2006, 05:30 AM

:)
I think the moderators ought to let him back in. It would probably make things more interesting and less one-sided.

There are a lot of issues, much of it unknown to the general membership, that will make this action highly unlikely. Enough said on that.

Grumps

10-03-2006, 03:31 PM

This whole one sided thing is starting to get me. Do we need Mr. Selmer here before we deride their Hummingbird? Did Santy Runyon need to show up to defend the Bionix? These people are in the business, and this is a forum that is set up (in part) to discuss same. Whether or not they show up to defend their products or marketing of same shouldn't dictate when a thread is closed. Besides, if anyone is wondering why this discussion may appear one sided... perhaps because there is little if any merit to the arguments being proposed by those shielding the designer. It's clear to me at least what's happening here. First off, as previously posted, the designer has already said that only the design and final adjustment will take place in the US. Adjustment ain't enough to claim made in USA. They're being assembled elsewhere. So now one has to wonder if they're all going through the designer's shop or place of business, will that final adjustment consist of taking off the sticker which will indicate where the horn is made? If so, I believe he'll have a hard time having places such as WWBW sell his horns for him. Absent this sticker or other indicator, they'll be violating customs law mandating that the ultimate purchaser be made aware of where the goods were manufactured. Will the designer push his claim of protecting vendors to justify peeling off the stickers? Even if... and I doubt this highly... but even if such a vendor contract existed, that specifically prohibited him from disclosing the country of origin, it would be invalidated and overridden by Customs Law. You simply cannot contract around valid law. And just think of it... you're a vendor. You're shipping out a product from your country which must include an indication as to country of origin. You're shipping to a dealer and by law and custom that indicator must be present for the ultimate purchaser to see. How could you contract for that dealer not to reveal the country of origin, when said dealer would be revealing it with every item sold; if abiding by the law. Can any of you answer that argument? The designer can't and won't on a public forum over which he does not have editing control, but looking at it from a legal and practical perspective, his contentions make absolutely no sense.