Hunting for a new pro flute.

[Bootman]

I am currently chasing down a new Pro Flute, the solid silver handmade or top of the line semi handmade drawn tone hole models. Here are a few conclusions as I almost go mad trying to figure out which one is best for my purposes.

All Flutes are open holes, some C and some B foots, some inline and some off set G.... some with C# trill mechanism, most without. All where played with the same solid gold tube/ solid platinum lip plate and riser headjoint. My requirements are a flute that will project well for Latin Jazz/ Cuban music, handle pit work (when requried) have enough projection to cut over an electric band on mic without sounding thin, (Eq can only enhance what is already there, it cant add to what is not there to begin with) and light classical ensemble work. This is a big ask for any instrument!

Muramatsu EX....A very nice flute, great keywork but some how lacking oomph in the bottom end and somewhat thin in the high end. A very easy blowing flute but not enough depth to the tone.

Muramatsu GX...
Perhaps my favourite Flute, lighter in sound than the AD model and lacking in depth and solidity of tone inthe bottom end and top end is somewhat thinner than I would like. The standard headjoint was very nice, very crystalline and pure in sound. Overall, a very nice flute.

Muramatsu AD...(used)
A very solid rich sound, lots of power and depth in the bottom end, big and solid in the top but lacked the zing of the GX. It is a much softer flute in terms of overall volume than the GX. One concern is solid silver mechanism being more delicate and requiring more trips to the repair shop than a plated mechanism. I doubt that the silver mechanism adds much to the overall resonance of the flute when compared to the plated mechanism. The C foot had more power and projection than the B foot.

Muramatsu DS...Excellent flute, negligible differences between this and the AD, the AD was slightly darker and not as well set up as the DS model. Bottom end and top end response where almost identical and any differences that were perceived could easily be rectified by a set-up.

Overall, the keywork of the Muramatsu and hand position felt identical in all models, the inline G AD model was uncomfortable and I noticed a tendency to cramp the left wrist when playing this flute.

Next was the other big Japanese flutes.

Miyazawa (I tried 3 different models).
These flutes all had a bright sparkling sound, cramped keywork for large hands and sounded thin when pushed. Response was very nice but they lacked depth in the bottom end (no C foot available to test). The top end was very brittle indeed, worse with the factory headjoint. Overall I found it too cramped to play and thin sounding which makes it easy to play but there needs to be more resistance in the flute so as to be able to get the full dynamic contrasts in all registers.

Prima Sankyo,
Nice flute, keywork was good but it was all top end and lacked any low mids to the sound. It played effortlessly, spoke well and responded very quickly. A great flute for fast playing but once again was weak in the extremities of the range.

John Lehner,
Hand made solid silver flute, B or C foot (I tried two different solid silver Flutes). This was a very resistant flute, had a big dark sound in all registers, excellent keywork (solid silver). The bottom end was resonant and top end spoke effortlessly. Overall a very liveable Flute with lots of colours available in the tonal palate. Drawbacks are price and potential of the solid silver keywork to require more attention more often than plated keywork.

Hand made Solid Gold flute,This was the best one I had tried yet, much darker than the solid silver, incredibly responsive in both the bottom end and the upper range. Keywork was fantastic, C# trill key worked beautifully. It was by and large the loudest of the low B foot joint flutes. The keywork felt more solid than the silver flutes, even more solid than the Muramatsu AD models. Scale was excellent, intonation effortless. The downside was the price.......how much are kidney's worth these days? :)

Jupiter/ Demidici/ Altus
Jupiter 711,
A very nice flute, quite brittle but effortless to play, spoke well in all registers but lacked depth of tone. Value for money wise, a very, very nice flute. The difference between this and the Miyazawas was minimal, scale was excellent and intonation good. The standard headjoint was less than inspiring.

Dimedici,
Also a very good flute but as for differences between this and the jupiter, I couldn't really tell. The standard Headjoint was better but with my headjoint, the lack of depth in the low end and top range became very apparent. Great value for money but I would probably buy the Jupiter which appears to be identical and cheaper.

Altus,
907...
A not very inspiring Flute, very light tone and easy to play but lacked depth of tone. I found that it felt like playing a better set-up Demidici. I would expect more for the price difference.

1107..
Very slight differences between this and the 907, same lack of depth to the tone colour, played effortlessly but I found it too easy to over power the instrument. I guess I was spoilt playing the other offerings.

More to come as I check out the Yamahas, some other very expensive offerings. I fear that I have Champagne tastes with a beer budget. Please feel free to offer any other thoughts, advice and ideas of what to look at....

My ideal budget is $6 to $10K USD.

[woodwindNYC]

Quite a project there! Are you looking at instruments that you can buy locally, or are you open to globalization, as it were? There is a flute shop in NYC that has a bountiful bevy of gorgeous flutes under 10K, and the proprietor is a friend of mine. http://www.flutes4sale.com It's the Flute Center of New York, and he will send you anything to try.

Have you considered getting a Haynes? A very good used Haynes will run you usually less than 5K, and there are some VERY VERY nice instruments from "back in the day". (I personally HATE new Haynes flutes, but the older ones are gold!)

I would also recommend that you consider the Powell Conservatory models. (which is the flute that I'm holding in my avatar photo, by the way). Even the Aurumite, which has a 9K gold exterior, is under 10K, with trill key and G disk. They are a powerhouse of a flute, and can handle ANYTHING. There are also a ton of used Powells in your budget range.

Also worth considering is a flute that I've recently discovered and become very enamored of, the Sakurai. If you find one, try it. You may just love it, and they're quite inexpensive, comparatively.

Keep us updated on your search!

:-)

[Bootman]

I owned a Couple of Haynes in the past but they were all closed hole models and when playing these closed hole Flutes I find that I miss certain nuances of inflection that you can get with open hole flutes. There are many who will say there is no difference but if you need to do Irish or African music, you require finger slides and finger articulation which doesn't happen as easily or not at all on a closed hole flute.

I have played a few Powells and I will check out the new Conservatory models. The Sakurai sounds interesting, yet another brand I haven't heard of. Thanks for the input. I feel that I have opened a huge can of worms here and potentially will choose the most expensive Gold flute but then face the reality of I cant afford it and settle for the second or third choice.

Any used gold Flutes available for a reasonable price?

[JButky]

I am currently chasing down a new Pro Flute, the solid silver handmade or top of the line semi handmade drawn tone hole models. .......

All where played with the same solid gold tube/ solid platinum lip plate and riser headjoint. My requirements are a flute that will project well for Latin Jazz/ Cuban music, handle pit work (when requried) have enough projection to cut over an electric band on mic without sounding thin, ........

My ideal budget is $6 to $10K USD.

Did you play all these flutes with the same headjoint? Or did you mean that you played each of these flutes with each manufacturer's headjoint with the spec of solid gold tube, platinum riser?

That being an unknown (for me) I would also suggest given the similar tendencies that you try something different in terms of headjoint construction. You might like any of these flutes with a wood headjoint. That would certainly go well in the Latin/Cuban variety. I think the gold tube/platinum riser combination can be subjectively construed as "thin" although very resistant. You should also try various cuts for different tone, response, and feel.

Modern flutes are more responsive and, in my opinion, have gotten "brighter".
If you are looking for some depth to the sound I would look to a particular headjoint for each of these situations. Ardal Powell's wood headjoints would make a nice compliment for the Latin/Cuban style and could be used for those other circumstances.

Here's their Faq with a list of places you can try their headjoints (Folkers and Powell:)
http://www.headjoints.com/faq.html

I've had them here for my own flute shows with very positive feedback from players with similar requirements. It's at least worth a try.

6-10K price range has a boat load of flutes. You should be able to find something in that category to suit your requirements. Don't forget to try different cuts with these heads.

You might also like one of Landell's Titanium heads for what you are looking for. They are pricey but can give you the depth of tone and flexibility that you are looking for if you find the right one.

It sounds to me, more like you are trying to find a good headjoint for your needs. As far as the body is concerned, any of these that you find comfortable will do you fine and can trade off price for the cost of the headjoint that will serve your purpose.

Joe B

[Ivy]

Nice to see posting again, Bootman!

Thanks for the review on the various Muramatsu flutes. They are hard to find around here to try.

I play a Powell Signature flute with a Philharmonic cut head. It is semi bright with lots of shades and colors. I like it better than the Signature head. Your taste seems to run on dark side. I just tried a friends wooden Powell with a Boston cut. You might like the darkness of that flute. Plays like a dream but the price tag is 13.000$! Powell also makes the Traditional cut on the wooden heads-hight resistance (no undercutting). I don't think they make it in gold or silver anymore, but I could be mistaken. Powell offers other types of cuts like the Soloist and the Ransom Wilson cuts which I haven't tried but am curious about.

Another friend has the handmade Aurumite with a traditional cut head-talk about DARK. That's an interesting cut but it's not for me.

You're budget could be within 1000$ of the handmade Powells (one level above the Conservatory model), you certainly should try these.

The new Powells have the Straubinger style pads which are great when they are working. The required touch on the keys is so light that it might take you a while to get used to it but when you do it will make very fast runs incredibly easy and effortless. The downside is that you have to find the right tech(straubinger certified tech) to be certain that they are set up right. The average unfamiliar tech could ruin them.

Many Cuban flutists use wood flutes (5 key system, conical bore). These are difficult to play. I think the wooden Powells are a good substitute.

I sure wish I was in your shoes right now chasing these flutes. Ivy

[woodwindNYC]

If you want gold, go to http://www.fluteworld.com and go to Instruments, then Used Instruments.

There is a solid gold Pearl for around 8K, and a solid gold Lamberson for about 7K. There is also a wood Yamaha for around 5...tons of great stuff.

My only advice is to try absolutely as many flutes as possible. You can get all the recommendations you want, but as I'm sure you know, the only way is to play them all and see what you like!

[Bootman]

Joe,
I am playing everything with my Gold tube, platinum riser/ lip headjoint. This headjoint is anything but thin in tone. I also tried it with the makers own supplied headjoint. I have played this partiucular Lehner solid gold tube solid platinum lip for the last 4 years. The head joint fits me like a well worn pair of jeans.

I have delved long and hard to find the particular headjoint I use with John Lehner (Flutemakers guild of Australia) and have picked his brain about flutes for many. many years. My findings on the flutes I tried are how they worked for me, others may and probably will find different tendencies in the same flutes. I am not looking for easy to play, I am looking for a full bodied tone in all registers to the extremes of the range. I am being overly picky on the sound I want because buying a new or used pro flute is a serious investment. I have a sound concept in my head of how I want the sound to be when I play it and when I find the right combination, I will know it within seconds.

Ivy,
I haven't tried the new Powells yet but I have played several older Powells which were fantastic but not my favoured sound or feel. I would love to try and get hold of a wood flute and will have a hunt around here to see what is available.

I personally own a couple of Ironwood Fifes that are exceptional, one particular 8 hole C fife in Cooktown Ironwood (Aussie native timber) simply plays itself. I have a wooden headjoint of this material too which is also a knock out. The only drawback I see to a wooden flute is the extremes of weather we tend to get in Australia. We have to be really careful with wooden clarinets here because of extreme heat, below zero cold (I know hard to believe but it does snow here too).

WWNYC,
Your comments and thoughts make perfect sense to me. I had planned to test drive everything I could get my hands on. The only drama wiht getting a flute from NY is that I live in Sydney and most international sellers aren't want to send instruments on apro to the other side of the world.

My main concern is to test drive everything available and then pick from there. I had thought about a few Yamaha's but Yamaha pro flutes aren't common here at all. I guess I should try the Burkharts, the Powells and a Brannen too. I had thought them out of my price range but if they are that good then money can be found.

Thanks for all your inputs, it is greatly appreciated. I will keep the hunt up to date. The main thing is not to rush into anything without investigating all options.

[Bootman]

Further test drives.

Today I trried my best to get hold of one of the Yamaha wooden 874-wh flutes to no avail as there apparently according to Yamaha none bought into the country. The positive was that they did have a Powell wooden flute there that was simply amazing, it was as close as I have come to Flute Nirvana yet. The sound was dark and haunting, full of colour, flexible and had a huge dynamic range. The timbre was even throughout all registers too. The only down side was the price was significantly over budget.

The other flutes I tested today where.

Sankyo 501, 701 and a used 901 flute.
These sankyos where significantly better than the other models I play tested before. Nice and clean, clear tone and still had a bright singing quality to the tone. The 901 was significantly more vibrant and rich than the other two models, keywork ws light and delicate, hand position was good. Overall a very, very nice flute but I felt that I needed more oomph than I was able to get from these flutes.

Altus 1607, a nice playing flute but the keywork felt cramped. Tone was thinner than the Sankyos (using factory and my head joint), very pure and crystalline but not the sound I am looking for. These woudl make someone very happy if they were chasing a dainty sound. It would be a fantastic classical flute.

Powell,
Signature series.
A lovely Flute with a rich dainty tone, very light in the extremities of each register. The supplied headjoint was nice and vibrant to play. A sweet flute to play but the sund wasnt complex or dark enough for what I was looking for. Conservatory, A ripper of a flute, nice keywork and big sound. A great classical sound that articulated very effortlessly in all register at varying dynamics. The bottom end ws lush and vibrant, the top end spoke sweetly as well. Overall a very liveable flute but not the completely the sound I was looking for. Powell Conservatory Arumite. This was an amazing instrument to play, the timbre and eveness of scale, projection coupled with a rich dark core to the sound made it a fantastic choice of Flute. The down side was the cost was more than I wished to spend and the fact that I would be terrified in taking it out to a lot of gigs. It did make the short list of Flutes to really consider again!

Powell Grenadilla,
This was a real eye opener, the sound was dark and lush, reminiscent of a good Irish flute. The tonal flexibility was huge and it was amazingly loud pure and solid. The darkness was similar to an Alto flute at times. The top end with the supplied headjoint was slightly harder work but I feel that more investigation with various headjoint options would be time well spent. The keywork was fantastic, light but solid feeling and in a very comfortable position for large hands. Overall, I could live with a flute like this which jsut felt so alive in your hands when you played it.

Muramatsu AD heavywall. (used)
This was also a very comfortable feel to play, hand position and keywork where great, sound was very rich and complex with my headjoint and beautiful with factory headjoint. Intonation was excellent as where the complexity in the tone of the upper and lower ranges. It felt like a man's flute, the more air you gave it the better it liked it. It would also play at a whisper handle 2 octave leaps with ease. I felt very much at home with this flute too.

Today's sorte answered many questions for me and posed several more. My current short list is heavywall Muramatsu, Powell gold Clad Arumite Conservatory, Lehner Solid Gold, Wooden Powell and Lehner solid silver handmade. All of which are getting above the set budget I had in mind. I have a lot more thinking and experimenting to do but I am leaning towards the wood flute which can be found in US stores much cheaper than here but if I go that route, I lose out on the ability to play test the instrument before I purchase it and warranty advantage of buying locally. There is also the advantage of beign able to change the headjoint 4 times in the first 12 months of purchase without cost. These are considerable advantages and are giving me some serious food for thought.

In an ideal world I would happily have the Muramatsu AD heavywall and the wooden Powell but the Budget can't possibly stretch this far. There needs to be a compromise and I will have to work out which way to go or what to sell off to afford them both. I fear that there is much more anxiety now than there was before, more options equals more stress. Any thoughts greatly appreciated!

How much for a kidney on ebay this week?

[Ivy]

Bootman said:
"Powell Grenadilla,
This was a real eye opener, the sound was dark and lush, reminiscent of a good Irish flute. The tonal flexibility was huge and it was amazingly loud pure and solid. The darkness was similar to an Alto flute at times. The top end with the supplied headjoint was slightly harder work but I feel that more investigation with various headjoint options would be time well spent. The keywork was fantastic, light but solid feeling and in a very comfortable position for large hands. Overall, I could live with a flute like this which jsut felt so alive in your hands when you played it."


I had a very similar impression of this flute. The tonal flexibility also allowed you to even sound like a silver/gold flute with a little effort. About 10 years ago, Powell used to offer the headjoints in 3 types of wood. One of which was Australian ironwood- believe it or not, I liked the sound of that wood the best. With all the possible combinations of cuts and wood, it makes it kinda difficult.

If you find the right one -it's heaven on earth, but hell for the wallet.
Good luck!

do you think you can live with both kidneys out?

[bruce bailey]

Boot - Sorry I haven't gotten back to you on the Link. I played a Yamaha wood that a customer had on loan from the Yammy guys and it was really good. I think I could live without a metal flute with that one. They offered it to him for $3,800 (he plays with a well known artist) and I have seen them around lately (ebay or usedflutes.com, I forget) for around $5K. The heads are thinned and they fit together like a metal flute, no corks as I remember so you could also fit the metal head.

[kymarto]

I know that we keep going over this, but the material really doesn't make any difference. If you found a gold flute that you like, it has to do with the bore and perhaps the quality of manufacture, not with the metal. So don't expect that any old gold flute is going to give you what you are looking for, any more than silver flutes sound and respond the same.

Flute keys have such mechanical rigidity that the relative softness of silver as compared to plated nickel is not a factor in reliability, unless you step on the flute or drop it, in which case it will be the body that takes the major hit. Things are completely different here than on sax, with big old keys and long rods.

Similarly with wooden flutes: I've had two, a Rudall Carte and a Haynes. Both were nice, but again, it is the bore and not the material. Wooden instruments do allow tone hole chamfering, which can very positively affect response though. You have to be careful with wooden instruments, as they do crack occasionally, and there can be problems with wood splintering at the edges of tone holes sometimes.

I recently played a whole bunch of good flutes--a bunch of Powell handmades, Hayneses, some various Hammigs, Rudall Carte, Lot, gold Sankyo, wooden Rudall Carte, etc. Each was unique and different. The ones I liked best were not the most expensive (A cheaper Powell and a Hammig). Your best bet is just to keep looking, as each flute is a unique individual, even while there may be some family resemblances. I spent 10 years going through flutes before I settled on an Almeida with a Powell Cooper head. The Almeida head joint is mediocre, and the Powell body is not quite up to the Almeida, so I keep that combo as my spare. There is no telling when you are going to come across "the" instrument. The best you can do is try all the flutes you can get your hands on.

Toby

[Bootman]

Bruce and Toby,
Thanks for some sage advice. I have yet to find a Yamaha wooden Fltue here, no one seems to have one that I can play test. So inthe absence of any of these I will unfortunately have to scratch them off my list. As for the best Flute not always being the most expensive, this is true of my findings too. The search for the right Flute is still on in earnest and I am playing it cool until the right one comes along. I dont have to get one straight away, I can wait and put up with what I have got.

I havent played a Rudall Carte wood Flute for years, they are a little difficult to locate here although I do own a Rudall Carte Pic. The Powell I played the other day was startling, it felt so alive when you played it. I guess this is now on the agenda list to look into further. The Muramatsu too was very, very nice, it too felt alive in my hands and suited the sound concept I was hearing in my head. (yes I hear voices and noises in my head).

One of the biggest issues is affordability, but this is secondary to finding the right flute. The sound I am looking for is so hard to put into words that actually make sense, I am looking for a large variety of tone colours, (The Powell Grenadilla had this). I am also looking for enough volume so that it will cut through an electric ensemble when used on mic plus still retain depth of tone and not go shrill. I am not looking for exactly the ultra beautiful rich resonant pure tone, I want a little dirt in there too. The Muramatsu heavy wall gave me this sound, it was very nice, resoant, powerful yet would whisper ppp when required . It nic ean even in reponse, played better inthe upper range than the Powell but had a little more warmth in the lower and mid range. Both had fantastic qualities to the sound, each was very different but as to which was better, I just don't know! I guess will probably have to do like I did with saxes and buy them both.

More on the saga as we get along further into it.

[kymarto]

Bootman,

I certainly know what you mean about wanting an instrument that feels "alive" in your hands. I recently played a gold Sankyo that had a wonderful, huge sound, easy to blow, but which didn't have the "feel". It's pretty indescribable, but you know it when it's there.

I would suggest that you check out Cooper-style headjoints. For a short time Powell was offering them, and when my order-made flute finally came due in 1981 I decided to give it a shot. I don't know if all the Cooper heads are the same, but this one is simply amazing. I have an Almeida flute with the classic Boston cut, and there is really no comparison for me. The embouchure hole on the Cooper is elongated, a very wide oval, with the edges chamfered to direct the air at the edges inward. It is a very low wall headjoint, especially the back wall being quite short. It has huge undercutting on the sides. All these things seem to contribute to it having a giant sweet spot -- you almost can't blow it wrong, as compared to the Boston cut, which requires precise centering of the air stream to really sing, and even then seems to be holding something back.

The sound is extremely clear -- almost "bell like". It is certainly not the instrument for those who like the airy French sound, (which a number of the Prima Sankyos I have played seem to do extremely well). But it seems willing, and even eager, to go wherever I want to go, if you know what I mean. Importantly, the sound seems to develop effortlessly, and doesn't change its core depending on volume as many heads seem to do.

I think it is a true shame that Powell no longer offers this head joint, but I know that many makers are now offering Cooper-style heads, and I urge you to try one out if you can find it. That being said, I have looked at a number of other Cooper heads (some by Cooper himself), and none seemed as radical a design as my Powell head (which was produced, I understand, in consultation with Cooper).

Good luck on your search.

Toby

[Bootman]

Toby,
I had an old Cooper head joint here that was very nice and as yousaid very easy to get a big sweet sound out of. One of the biggest issues I have here is the fact that I seem to be abel to over blow or dump too much air down many of the Flutes I test drove. This being one of the factors that is not unusal with a lot of doublers and something I have spoken at length with John Lehner about. My gold/platinum headjoint has a big wide oval style hole with a significant undercut, it works very nicely for me and I have become very accustomed to how it plays and it's quirks.

Interestingly enough, it is the more resistant and darker flutes that I have liked the most when play testing everything. I am looking for some resistance in the flute so as to have something to focus agaisnt when I am playing the instrument. The gold/platinum head joint requires a lot of air to get singing but when you give it the air, it really does respond very nicely. I would ideally prefer to use this head joint as I have a lot of money invested in it. This being said, I guess I am looking for a flute body that will marry up with this head joint and give me the sound that I am looking for. It makes the search somewhat harder but potentially more worthwhile when I find the flute body to suit.

In the mean time, the main thing to do is not to rush into anything, check out all options carefully. Recheck the options and see what can be felt on a different day. I still like the wooden Powell but as with any wooden instrument the potential for cracking (no matter what guarantee is given by the factory) is still there. This is another issue to take into consideration when buying a new flute. There is also the cost factor as well, affordability is a big issue. I find it amazing how much more a good Flute is when compared to a pro sax.

More thought and research is required. It is probably going to take months to find the right Flute.

[Tibbiecow]

Hi Bootman,
I had the opportunity two years ago to buy a wood headjoint.
I found, on www.usedflutes.com, a Yamaha EC cut wood headjoint for about $700. I really get along well with a silver EC, so I thought it would be great.

Also on the usedflutes was a Powell Grenadilla Philharmonic-cut headjoint, for $1200.

I ordered both on approval as well as a couple of others (Howell Roberts and another two I don't even remember).

The Yamaha EC was nice, but I saw no reason to replace my Prima Sankyo NRS-1 silver. My flute teachers' response was the same. The wood EC headjoint was a distant second choice over the Powell, but miles better than the others I tried. For me, anyway...

The Powell head turns my student Pearl into an amazing instrument. It turns my Yamaha 881 C-foot into something like the flute nirvana that you are referring to. High register ppp, octave leaps, low end sounds lush like an alto flute...just so responsive and willing, and I can get it to sound how I want it to. Most amazing to me is the ability to play the high register IN TUNE...wow. My flute teacher sighs with joy to play it, and borrows it now and then to play in the symphony. (She would buy one for $1200 immediately, but they just ain't around! And she can't afford the whole flute for $12,500) A flute performance masters student also loves this thing. I can't believe how lucky I was to get it. Somebody very, very talented was having some seriously good karma when he/she made it.

The other headjoints were nothing in comparison, although I am a (slightly rank) amateur. I just know that M'pingo (Swahili for African Blackwood, which is what I named it...) lets me do things that a)'flutes don't do' or b)well, they do but you have to be James Galway or Paula Robison to do it.

So I vote for the wood Powell. Is there any way to have just the headjoint?

I also wood :) nix the Yamaha-although a player with more talent than I would probably be able to get more out of it, the headjoint I tried didn't especially impress anyone.

I hope you enjoy your search, and still have at least one kidney left when you're done!

Tibbie

[danerida]

Hey Bootman,
Don't know if you've heard of these but they sound like they are right up your alley, sound described as being dark and somewhere between silver and wood. Not sure how you'd go about getting hold of one to try. Price is in your range too.
http://www.inderbinen.com/Flute-e.htm
FYI- Candy Dulfer plays one of his altos.
Best of luck finding what you're looking for.
Dan

[kymarto]

"The combination of brass, silver, and silver-plated nickel-silver is extraordinarily free blowing. Cut out of the sheet, the tube is soldered, hammered by hand and with several further working procedures we get a certain structure and hardness, which results in a special sound quality."

AAAck! More marketing bullsh*t...

Toby

[bruce bailey]

I am one of the few here that thinks gold is best. It is the density and not the hardness that makes it a top choice. Although I make a few gold ones and mostly solid Sterling silver, I think that for overall playing that a sterling head with a nickel body is the best when balancing price with playability.
My biggest seller is a DeFord in that combo and each time I get one out, I wonder why I bother to make a flute in sterling that costs 3X as much.

[Michael Ward]

Interesting about the heavy wall Muramatsu. I bought a new DS Muramatsu recently and got a good deal but was unable to try before I bought it. I had tried the old AD Model and liked it very much. My DS is light wall 015 according to Muramatsu and I find like Bootman I'm overblowing it a lot as it is so free blowing even with the supplied head. I'm trying to find a head that is sonorous yet has sufficient resistance. The best I've tried to date is a Powell Arumite with 14K riser.
I think in retrospect Bootman is doing it the right way matching a flute to a head.

[Gordon (NZ)]

"
AAAck! More marketing bullsh*t...

Toby

My feelings too. I have played enough variety of flutes from different materials to wholeheartedly support what both the acoustic scientists say, and the only reliable testing (i.e. "double blind" testing) supports, that the material has such a small effect that it is insignificant.

Most of the gold flutes I have played have been a big disappointment compared with other well-designed standard models.

IMO this sort of marketing has mislead a great many gullible flute buyers, including myself.

[Bootman]

Thanks for your input. I will be getting onto it more next week as I have been absent on tour all weekend and am laid up for the rest of the week with other issues.

I still find I like Gold but cant afford one. The wood option might be ok but the heavy wall silver is the next and probably the most affordable option. If only money wasn't an issue !!!! I would most likely have one each but at the prices these instruments cost it is prohibitive.

More later.

[danarsenault]

I also always subscribed to the marketing BS theory of gold flutes as well. Then I played a gold Pearl and was blown away. I've never liked Pearls and always thought gold was silly, so it was easy for me to say that this was just one well setup instrument, and it was. But it was also delicious.

When I was flute shopping, I had differnet requirements. I wanted a flute good enough to get me sounding like a flute player as a doubler with an appropriate amount time in the woodshed. I settled on a Muramatsu EX, even though I had taken a Sankyo home initially. The Mura's tone was darker to me, more suited to my blending needs in the pit.

[MRC01]

I still find I like Gold but cant afford one. The wood option might be ok but the heavy wall silver is the next and probably the most affordable option.
There is a flute maker here in Seattle called Alexander Eppler who makes fabulous wood flutes (and silver ones too). My duet partner has one of his wood flutes - amazing sound. He's also well known in this area for his flutesmithing work. They are out of your price range new, but you might look for one used.
http://www.epplerflutes.com

Also a question: when sampling all these flutes how do you tell which ones you really like? Sometimes the flute that sounds best for the first few minutes, has a zing or edge to the sound that becomes fatiguing or annoying over longer periods of time. Sometimes the one that initially sounds dull becomes flexible and lively over time after the lips get used to it. When I've done what you are doing the comparisons took weeks for these reasons.

Good luck on your flute quest and thanks for posting your results so far - very useful!

[Gordon (NZ)]

Also a question: when sampling all these flutes how do you tell which ones you really like? Sometimes the flute that sounds best for the first few minutes, has a zing or edge to the sound that becomes fatiguing or annoying over longer periods of time. Sometimes the one that initially sounds dull becomes flexible and lively over time after the lips get used to it. When I've done what you are doing the comparisons took weeks for these reasons.

So, so true!

[MRC01]

I have played enough variety of flutes from different materials to wholeheartedly support what both the acoustic scientists say, and the only reliable testing (i.e. "double blind" testing) supports, that the material has such a small effect that it is insignificant.

I would have to agree there. Materials with grossly different physical properties, such as metal versus wood, do indeed sound different. But gold versus silver versus platinum versus other metals? Grenadilla versus Crocus versus whatever? They are very similar. Any audible differences are more likely the result of different players or different headjoint cuts. Even the same player on different performances will have more variation in sound than the difference that silver vs. gold vs. platinum makes.

At a masters class I saw Galway pick up a flute and say, "This is what a silver flute sounds like", then play a tune. Then he raised the same flute to his lips and said, "This is what a gold flute sounds like", play the same tune with a different tone color. Rampal has done the same.

So why did Rampal play a gold flute? Because flute makers spend greater care and attention building a $30k flute of gold, than when building a $10k flute of silver. No surprises there.

There is a legend that Albert Cooper once made a new headjoint and tested it out in front of a few fellow flute makers. He left the them spellbound wondering what it was: gold? platinum? a gold/platinum alloy? It was a melted down saucepan. His point - it's the geometry and cut, not the materials.

This leaves me wondering: why don't we see flutes made of synthetic composites - plastics, carbon fiber, stainless steel alloys, etc.? The flexibility in material density & elasticity is virtually infinte with different material recipes. It must be possible to fabricate a material with physical properties similar to grenadilla - perhaps some kind of carbon fiber / plastic blend. Only it wouldn't swell or crack, it's a lot easier for a flute maker to work with, and less expensive, and easier on the rainforest :) Why don't we see this? Is it mere die-hard tradition holding us back?

[bruce bailey]

Hardy has a plastic flute that I did some "work" on and they just didn't sell. I think there needed to be some more head work on it. For my money I think a wood head on a metal flute gets the job done without all of the problems with a wood body. When doing pad work on a wood flute, it is quite hard to see the sides of the tone holes and I find most repads are substandard. I have been buying some of the wood head blanks from China and recutting them to my size. They are actually pretty decent for cheap as most people will only use them for a second head.

[Bootman]

I have seen plastic Flutes and know of a Carbon Fibre Flute and they probably play well. I am well aware of the properties of Carbon Fibre in regards to racing cars. I would rather have a precious metal if I am going to pay a lot of money for an instrument, Gold in preference but silver will do.

I like the weight, feel and sound of a Gold Flute, it is more resistant to play and takes more effort to get it to ring.

Wood is nice and warm, very different to Gold and as to whether it is worth what they are charging for it, I am not to certain. Wooden Clarinets are much cheaper, even Oboes.

It looks like the solid silver is the option I will be going for as the sound of a heavy wall or Handmade is very pelasant to my ear. Very close to concept of what I hear as the Flute sound in my head. Whether it is Muramatsu or John Lehner Handmade, further play tests will tell. Ideally I would like to play each instrument for a week or so to get to know them well because it is only after you ahve owned them for a while that you start to intimately know the instrument. I have no desire to change headjoints as the Gold/Paltinum I have here feels right for me and as I am the one who has to play it, this is what matters. I don't feel any need to change to Cooper headjoints or Powell Headjoints. My overall impression of the Powell Flutes is that the US made ones are very good, expensive and have a great sound but I am looking for a richer darker sound, not a pretty dainty Flute tone. I want the clean even dark timbre of a Buescher Sax in a Flute.

An interesting point in this whole search to take note of is that your ears get very tired after play testing a lot of Flutes, even if you have a clear head. I wont be rushing anything here and I fully expect it to take me several months and various other options willbe discovered before I settle on the Flute for me.

[kymarto]

I would have to agree there. Materials with grossly different physical properties, such as metal versus wood, do indeed sound different. But gold versus silver versus platinum versus other metals? Grenadilla versus Crocus versus whatever? They are very similar. Any audible differences are more likely the result of different players or different headjoint cuts. Even the same player on different performances will have more variation in sound than the difference that silver vs. gold vs. platinum makes.

<snip>

This leaves me wondering: why don't we see flutes made of synthetic composites - plastics, carbon fiber, stainless steel alloys, etc.? The flexibility in material density & elasticity is virtually infinte with different material recipes. It must be possible to fabricate a material with physical properties similar to grenadilla - perhaps some kind of carbon fiber / plastic blend. Only it wouldn't swell or crack, it's a lot easier for a flute maker to work with, and less expensive, and easier on the rainforest :) Why don't we see this? Is it mere die-hard tradition holding us back?


Actually I would beg to differ. Materials with grossly different physical properties do not necessarily sound different. Consider that in woodwind instruments the only function of the walls is to define the shape of the air column. Therefore, if the materials used are sufficiently rigid (and thus do not flex and absorb energy from the vibrating air column, dissipating it as heat), there can be no sonic differences between materials.

There are a few further conditions, the most important of which is the interior walls be smooth, in order to cut down on friction losses of the air molecules at the boundary layer. This can be significant, and perhaps when comparing metal with wood, this is where most of the perceived sonic differences arise (and here I am talking about real sonic differences, not those perceived due to player expectation). However if you use a sufficiently fine-grained wood that takes a good polish, there will be no sonic differences if the interior smoothness and the bore geometry are the same.

There are some interesting flute materials out there. Matit makes carbon-fiber bodied flutes with a very innovative springless key design (magnets). One Japanese company is producing ceramic bodied flutes, and let us not forget the ivory and glass flutes of yore. There are claims for sonic uniqueness for all these materials (always positive of course).

In terms of plastic: it works fine, but it has an image problem. Think of the Buffet Greenline composite clarinets--excellent instruments, and impervious to weather and humidity conditions. I still prefer my R13, but only because I like wood from an aesthetic point of view. I hardly expect that the sound would be better than an identically manufactured clarinet in plastic.

Toby

[Bootman]

Interesting points. I would like to see flutes of identical manufacture in all materials and then get them play tested. THis should be possible with CNC machining. THis would make for a very interesting study.

[JButky]

I am looking for a richer darker sound, not a pretty dainty Flute tone. I want the clean even dark timbre of a Buescher Sax in a Flute.



Trying to narrow your criteria down and give you more things to consider and try.

If that's what you want I would go for a heavy wall flute. Ideally, I think you would like a flute that is designed and scaled with smaller tone holes also. Maybe you could get a maker to make one scaled with a slightly smaller tone hole size. (I supppose that would thow you out of your price range however...<G>)

For ha ha's, if you find an older George Haynes flute in that configuration or the Selmer NY flutes (pretty much the same thing), I love to see if that idea holds true. A high riser, smaller geometry embochure hole cut could help too, but you already have the headjoint you like...

Those old G Haynes flutes had really low risers on them, put a new lip plate and riser on them and they played really well and could be cut to be pretty dark..

Well, just a thought..

Joe B

[MRC01]

Consider that in woodwind instruments the only function of the walls is to define the shape of the air column. Therefore, if the materials used are sufficiently rigid (and thus do not flex and absorb energy from the vibrating air column, dissipating it as heat), there can be no sonic differences between materials.

Agreed. But wood is less dense and less rigid than silver or gold. How is it known whether wood is sufficiently rigid to avoid any audible differences?


There are a few further conditions, the most important of which is the interior walls be smooth, in order to cut down on friction losses of the air molecules at the boundary layer.
...
However if you use a sufficiently fine-grained wood that takes a good polish, there will be no sonic differences if the interior smoothness and the bore geometry are the same.

Interesting idea - new to me. I always considered density and rigidity but never smoothness of the inner bore. I'd like to read more about that.

Now excuse me while I go sand the inner bore of my plastic piccolo to rough it up and get that grenadilla sound... :D

[MRC01]

I want the clean even dark timbre of a Buescher Sax in a Flute.

Looking back at your posts, it really sounds like somebody trying different headjoints. Then I realized you were using your own headjoint and just changing the flute body! How did you fit your headjoint into all those flutes? Sure you can use tape or paper to shim, but what if the headjoint tenon is too big to fit into the body?

It sounds like you already have the sound you want with your headjoint. The flute body makes *some* difference, but most of that is in the scale and wall construction. Once you eliminate those variables the differences in tone virtually disappear. Then it comes down to build quality, durability and the feel of the key action.

Is this what you are sorting out, or are you really hearing significant differences in tone quality between heavy walled solid silver bodies played with your own headjoint?

[JButky]

Agreed. But wood is less dense and less rigid than silver or gold. How is it known whether wood is sufficiently rigid to avoid any audible differences?

Sufficiently rigid as Toby addressed simply means it's ability to contain an air colomn and not resonate sympathetically with it. Once the rigidity is lessened to the point where the tube itself vibrates with the air column, it is self defeating for the standing wave. Wood is sufficiently rigid to support the dynamics of an air column.

Joe B

[MRC01]

Sufficiently rigid as Toby addressed simply means it's ability to contain an air colomn and not resonate sympathetically with it. Once the rigidity is lessened to the point where the tube itself vibrates with the air column, it is self defeating for the standing wave. Wood is sufficiently rigid to support the dynamics of an air column.

Yep - I realize that's what he meant. What I was trying to say was - is this common sense or well established fact based on experiment? Has somebody done a repeatable experiment to actually measure the threshold of audibility of changes in tone as a function of rigidity? What about density, elasticity and other properties?

I can't imagine how that is possible because it would take a magic sample of unobtanium in which we can independently change each factor: density, elasticity, rigidity, etc. without affecting any others, and subject each variation to a double blind test with well trained listeners.

We can say, from an acoustical perspective: metals all sound similar, woods all sound similar. But metals sound different from woods. We can say this with certainly because we can measure it (spectrum analysis of tone, double blind listening tests). But what exactly makes metal different from wood - and how exactly do we know it?

This is really a question, not a statement :)

[Bootman]

Joe,
I appreciate allyour help but the biggest problem Down Under is a lack of variety of things to test out. There aren't as many choices here as we would like. I owned a Haynes flute for a while but as it was closed hole, it didn't respond for me the way I wished it too. I am being incredibly fussy here, I like open hole, there are effects that I use with open tone holes. There have been others that say they cant tell a difference, well this may be the case for them but for myself when playing the instrument, it feels less flexible to me with closed toneholes.

I am in agreement with the differences between Wood and Metal, I can even feel a difference in the response of Gold versus Silver when playing these respective Flutes. Whether a listener can tell the difference is a different thing and personally whilst caring what others think of the tone, I am really concerned with how the flute responds and plays when I am using it.

On the densities of various materials, wood versus Carbon fibre versus plastic versus Fibre Glass versus Brass versus Fruit tree wood versu Hard Rubber versus Gold versus Silver versus Platinum etc...., I would be very interested to see a study into this. There will be some differences that listeners will be able to perceive that wont be able to measured by scientific instruments althoug a spectrum analysis of identical flutes made from various of these materials would be very interetsing to undertake.

[MRC01]

Joe,
I can even feel a difference in the response of Gold versus Silver when playing these respective Flutes.
Yes I can feel a difference too. I can always feel the flute resonating in my fingers and different flutes resonate differently. But when comparing gold vs. silver it's hard for me to say the difference I'm feeling is the metal, because the gold flute I played had thinner walls. Of course, for the same reason, I can't say the sound difference was due to the metal alone.

BTW, thanks for all the detailed comments you shared on flutes. I was about to replace my 16 year old Gemeinhardt 33SB - it still plays perfectly with good tone but flute scales have improved over the past 16 years making intonation a lot easier. I was leaning toward a Jupiter 711 and your comments cinched the deal for me - it's sitting in my audio room now with all my other flutes. It's still on trial for a few weeks and I only played it for a couple of hours but my first impression is a big :D It's amazing how much easier it is to play in tune with a modern scale flute.

[JButky]

Yep - I realize that's what he meant. What I was trying to say was - is this common sense or well established fact based on experiment? Has somebody done a repeatable experiment to actually measure the threshold of audibility of changes in tone as a function of rigidity? What about density, elasticity and other properties?



There are studies where a spectrum analysis to show the relative strength of partials for various metals. I don't know if this has been done with wood however. Of course the problem is always the player induced affect on each sample. I've seen some pretty strange contraptions to try and reproduce a stable driver for a flute to eliminate that variable. The closest human tests are those using the same player for the experiments. So it's a little bit of both, common sense and experimentation results. Trying to explain the results in terms of how the standing wave is affected is where the reasoning and speculation comes in.

The rest is deductive reasoning based on that and knowledge of how standing waves operate. There are many factors that contribute to tone and unfortunately quality is subjective. That's why the partials strength analysis is done. At least with that, various partial strengths charts for different materials can be compared (all other variables remaining consistant). You wouldn't say with those tests that a particular sound is brighter or darker than another. All you would say is that the 3rd and 4th partial strength of sample metal A is higher or lower consistantly when compared with sample metal B. Anyone can then place their subjective perception as to how they interpret it.

For instance..Carbon Fibre and Titanium share very similar results. Their sounds can be said to be similar as a result.

Joe B

[MRC01]

So it's a little bit of both, common sense and experimentation results. Trying to explain the results in terms of how the standing wave is affected is where the reasoning and speculation comes in.
...
The rest is deductive reasoning based on that and knowledge of how standing waves operate.
100% - we can precisely measure the sonic signature of various materials. But we can't measure which properties of the material contribute to the differences, because we can't single one property out from the others and vary it alone. So we make a guess based on what we know about acoustics and material science.

At least that's how I understand it... which led to my question how anyone knows it's density vs. elasticity vs. rigidity vs. surface effects etc.

Primitive man made flutes of wood or bone or clay because that's all he had. I suspect the same applied in the 1800s when early Boehm flutes were being made. Silver was available, not too expensive, didn't rust, wasn't too soft, and wasn't too hard, making it practical for fabrication work.

[ving]

MRC01,

Slightly off topic, but I happen to have purchased a 911 Jupiter (DiMedici) last year, and have been quite happy with it--you might want to check those out. I preferred it to the 711--FWIW--anyhow, I know the De Medici model has been phased out so you might be able to get a deal on one of those, 911 or 1011. (Replaced by the Azumi model name, to better compete with the Powell Sonare I think...)

Okay, back to the discussion...

[Bootman]

MRC01,
The 711 is a good Flute and I'm glad that my comments were of some help. I am still in the dreaded, I don't know which way to go stage. I lean one way then the other and back again. I will have to go and do some more test driving.

Off to think of other things for a while before I go mad!

[Dog Pants]

MRC01,
The 711 is a good Flute and I'm glad that my comments were of some help. I am still in the dreaded, I don't know which way to go stage. I lean one way then the other and back again. I will have to go and do some more test driving.

Off to think of other things for a while before I go mad!


If you're leaning one way and then the other, and suffering from confusion and indecision, you've been into the beer barrel again! :D
In which case, it is illegal for you to test drive anything. :evil:

To save yourself from going mad, just listen to the voices in your head and follow their advice. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

[kymarto]

Interesting points. I would like to see flutes of identical manufacture in all materials and then get them play tested. THis should be possible with CNC machining. THis would make for a very interesting study.

Ah! but, dear boy, it has been done:

http://iwk.mdw.ac.at/Forschung/english/linortner/linortner_e.htm

Toby

[MRC01]

I happen to have purchased a 911 Jupiter (DiMedici) last year, and have been quite happy with it--you might want to check those out. I preferred it to the 711
I can guess why you liked the 911 better - it comes with a better headjoint so it plays better out of the box. But the 711 is all solid silver while the 911 body is plated. Both have the same scale and similar build quality. These are budget instruments so one chooses his cost tradeoffs.

If I decide to keep this 711 (and I probably will), I may upgrade the headjoint down the road. But it takes time to decide as I need to give myself a chance to really get used to it.

[MRC01]

Ah! but, dear boy, it has been done:
http://iwk.mdw.ac.at/Forschung/english/linortner/linortner_e.htm
Toby
Nice link - no surprises there, they are all metal flutes. I'd like to see them include wood and plastic flutes in that comparison. I think they would be measurably and audibly different. The thing is, even when they measure the differences, the measurements alone don't say WHY it's different. That is left for us to guess at.

[kymarto]

Nice link - no surprises there, they are all metal flutes. I'd like to see them include wood and plastic flutes in that comparison.

You might find this link instructive:

http://ccrma.stanford.edu/marl/Coltman/Papers.html

Have a look at the pdf "Effect of material on flute tone quality".

Toby

[MRC01]

You might find this link instructive:
http://ccrma.stanford.edu/marl/Coltman/Papers.html
Have a look at the pdf "Effect of material on flute tone quality".
Toby
Excellent link. Strangley, the first couple of sentences are word-for-word identical to the other link. Experiments like this are great because they force one to re-examine observed phenomena. In my experience wood flutes do sound different from metal flutes. If it's not the material alone, perhaps the different material properties force builders to cut wood headjoints in a different way. Or perhaps they cut headjoints differently intentionally - just to make them sound different.

BTW, this reminds me of the many double blind test results dispelling widely held beliefs about high end audio... some of these I have participated in over the years. Same concept - expectations and preexisting beliefs affect our perceptions, often subconsciously.

[Bootman]

Ah! but, dear boy, it has been done:

http://iwk.mdw.ac.at/Forschung/english/linortner/linortner_e.htm

Toby

Very interesting reading. The one thing I wonder about is the effect of the vibrato speed of the player being used to colour the tone of the Flute. These were fantastic Classical Flute tones but what about the other type of Flute tones. The absence of wood is very interesting too.

I have to stay off the Beer barrel for a little while at the moment due to physical health problems, I can't even play any wind instrument due to gut surgery. This sucks......but I will get back onto it again shortly.

[JButky]

You might find this link instructive:

http://ccrma.stanford.edu/marl/Coltman/Papers.html

Have a look at the pdf "Effect of material on flute tone quality".

Toby

That test had been duplicated as well. Backus did use a wood flute in his tests If I remember right, and came to the same conclusion. Other's also have reconstructed these tests and demonstrated similar results..Including glass, stainless steel, etc..

Joe B

[kymarto]

Excellent link. Strangley, the first couple of sentences are word-for-word identical to the other link. Experiments like this are great because they force one to re-examine observed phenomena. In my experience wood flutes do sound different from metal flutes. If it's not the material alone, perhaps the different material properties force builders to cut wood headjoints in a different way. Or perhaps they cut headjoints differently intentionally - just to make them sound different.


I do a lot of work with wooden and bamboo ethnic instruments, which certainly sound much different than metal flutes, and I have played quite a number of old simple system flutes, ranging from an original one-key Thibouville that I found in France, through a bunch of 8-key instruments, as well as various modern Irish flutes and renaissance flute copies. Quite a range of sounds and responses. But of course they all have different bores, and quite different interior finishes (from the natural, quite rough, inside of bamboo through the highly polished, lacquered bore of the modern shakuhachi).

Interestingly, I also owned two wooden Boehm flutes, an old Rudall Carte with a lined head and a Haynes with unlined head. Both fell well within the range of what I consider the normal response and tone color that I get with a good silver flute. In fact, my first "good" flute was an old silver Haynes of the vintage of the wooden Haynes, and those two flutes played and sounded much more alike than either compared to my modern Powell.

Often with wooden flutes the bore is not highly polished, and this definitely adds to slightly defocused sound that most people associate with wooden flutes. Wooden flutes do have one big potential advantage over their metal brethren, which is that the thickness of the walls allows the tone hole edges to be chamfered, which has been shown to significantly decrease turbulence and aid response.

The older simple system flutes, as well as Irish instruments, have a much different bore structure than modern flutes, including a cylindrical head, reverse conical bore with very small tone holes, and these factors strongly influence the sound and response. Very small differences in the overall diameter of the cylindrical body of the modern Boehm flute also have a quite dramatic effect on the tone and response, as does the straightness of the bore. For example I have two very nice handmade flutes, a Powell and an Almeida. Ed Almeida was a master craftsman and long-time foreman of the Powell factory, who quit and started making his own flutes in response to what he saw as the declining quality at Powell in the 70s. And in fact in sighting down the bore of these two flutes, one can see subtle deformations in the Powell whereas the Almeida is rifle-bore smooth. They are as close to identical in diameter as can be - I can't measure any difference with vernier calipers - but there is a very definite difference in the way they play. The Almeida has a rock-solid core and stability that the Powell lacks, whereas the Powell feels a bit more "playful" and sounds just a touch smokier.

I've noticed this also with shakuhachi flutes, where the bore is handmade using a paste of lacquer and stone power applied to the inside of the bamboo culm, and then sanded out. Extremely smooth bores seem (usually) to produce a very clean and bright tone, whereas bores with a number of small variations feel a bit more open and resilient. However there are so many other factors involved, the most important of which are the actual bore dimensions, that it is hard (and perhaps unfair) to generalize.

Toby

[Gordon (NZ)]

It would seem to be REASONABLY straightforward as part of the drawing process for the tone holes of a rolled tone hole metal flute, to drag a die from the bore into a tone hole (supported in another die), to produce undercut tone holes.

Do you know if this has ever been done,to produce closer to a "wooden" sound on a metal flute?

[JButky]

It would seem to be REASONABLY straightforward as part of the drawing process for the tone holes of a rolled tone hole metal flute, to drag a die from the bore into a tone hole (supported in another die), to produce undercut tone holes.

Do you know if this has ever been done,to produce closer to a "wooden" sound on a metal flute?

In a way yes, this is being done. If you examine different flutes you will immediately notice some rather remarkably differences in the area where the bore meets the tone hole. Some are almost chamfered and others are razor sharp. You can round and soften these razor edges to improve response. Not to the degree that you could undercut a wood flute, but even a softening of the edge to a radius is a big improvement.

Joe B

[MRC01]

Often with wooden flutes the bore is not highly polished, and this definitely adds to slightly defocused sound that most people associate with wooden flutes. Wooden flutes do have one big potential advantage over their metal brethren, which is that the thickness of the walls allows the tone hole edges to be chamfered, which has been shown to significantly decrease turbulence and aid response.

Another thing I've noticed with wood flutes is the lack of a riser or a much lower riser. Also the blowhole is usally more round or elliptical, as opposed to the more squarish holes one sees on normal flutes. That must make a big difference too.

[ving]

MRC01,

Yes, you are right that I picked out the 911 probably due to the better head. Anyhow, I since upgraded the head; I'd be curious to go back and revisit the 711 now and see what I think...



Bootman, are you still drilling your reeds?



ving

[Bootman]

Ving,
Yes, I still drill my reeds. Number #4 Plasticovers on a 135 tip modified NY Link from the 50's. Still works best for me.

I would also like to add a big thank you to all who have added to this discussion. I have learnt so much jsut reading and understanding. Now all I have to do is go and check it out against what I have access to play here. The biggest limitation is what is available here in Sydney, which is most of the common instruments and a few specialty models. I have neer seen an Almeida, Rudall Carte's are very rare but I do own a RC wooden Pic with open G# that is a fantastic instrument despite the fact that it is pitched in A=452 (thanks Robert Biggio for this info).

I am having a forced hiatus from the Flute search due to abdominal surgery which has actually been a blessing in disguise. It has given me more time to think through what to purchase, what to retest and added to this the further information from other knowledgeable forum members.

All I can say is thank you for your help, it has made understanding the differences between the models/brands much easier.

Toby, Joe
Is the undercutting of the wooden flutes being done on any currently produced modern flute? Would be similar to clarinets in this regard? What are the real benefits of undercut toneholes in a smooth bore modern flute?

MRC01, Ving
Definitely have a go of the 711 again and let us all know your findings.

[JButky]

Ving,


Toby, Joe
Is the undercutting of the wooden flutes being done on any currently produced modern flute? Would be similar to clarinets in this regard? What are the real benefits of undercut toneholes in a smooth bore modern flute?



I don't see too many wooden flutes, but undercutting is done to improve response and correct intonation. And yes it would be similar to clarinets although the pitch results would be different due to the differences in the way the standing wave operates for these two. But the basic concepts are the same (as for recorders as well). The fact that a flute has such large tone holes makes it less than necessary as compared to clarinet or recorder for intonation correction. A good scaling on flute will do the trick. Small amounts can be realized but the response benefits are the most significant.

Joe B

[MRC01]

MRC01, Ving
Definitely have a go of the 711 again and let us all know your findings.
I've had the 711 for several days now playing it a couple hours a day. So far, compared to the Gemeinhardt 33SB (with J1 headjoint) that I've been playing for the past 16 years:

Tone quality: VERY similar. My wife didn't even notice that I got a new flute. 711 is slightly less projecting (which I prefer), more "rounded" with less edge (which I prefer). The 33SB tone is *slightly* better below low G because its extra edge to the tone helps down there. But this difference is rapidly diminishing as my lips learn the different headjoint of the 711. I can also get bigger dynamic contrasts with the 711 - and I'm not even used to its headjoint yet!

Response: 711 is far easier to blow. The 33SB is "stiffer" - very difficult for example to blow the "G" and "E" overtones while fingering low C. The 711 instantly responds to all overtones, slurs high E to high A no problemo. It's so sinfully easy to play it almost makes me feel guilty. With the 711 I am cruising through Anderson, Berbiguer and Reichert like never before. Sometimes I have to stop just to wipe the SEG off my face :blob:

Intonation: no contest. The 33SB uses old scale: E and F are flat, D is sharp, everything below low G is flat, C# is sharp, high E and F# are sharp, etc. all the typical old scale problems. The 711 plays like a Haynes cooper scale flute. From bottom B to high C, over 3+ octaves of range nothing is more than a few cents from dead-on. Highest Bb is a bit flat, but this note is slightly flat on virtually all flutes even modern Cooper/Bennet/Devaux scale.

Keywork: comparable. Both have top quality keywork - smooth, fast and silent. But the 711 feels slightly smoother and is a bit more comfy simply because the 33SB is in-line while the 711 has an offset G. Even though I have big hands and have played inline for 16 years, it took all of 2 minutes for me to like the offset better.

Build quality: tube straightness, tone holes, fit & finish, etc. both have the same very high quality.

The bottom line: This 711 blows me away. I've played a lot of different flutes over the years, some costing more than ten times what I paid for the 711. I had already engaged a couple of flute brokers with a budget 3-4 times what the 711 costs, but I've already called off the search. The 711 is a keeper and I'll be ebaying the 33SB, my old trusty friend for the past 16 years.

[bruce bailey]

Emerson DeFord developed a drawing system that does give the same effect as undercutting on metal flutes. The Emersons from about 1993 had it but I don't know if they do now since they are built at Armstrong. His current drawn flute have them and my bodies are drawn there with the same system since I use the Bennett scale. It gives the flute a little more flex in the sound and if you look inside the hole, you can see the flare.

[kymarto]

Miscellaneous answers:

Gordon: Yes, it would seem to me also that drawn toneholes could easily be made to mimic undercutting. The main point is to have no sharp edges in the bore, which create turbulence and lessen the regeneration of the standing waves. AFAIK no one has taken the trouble to tool up and create rounded tone hole chimney edges. I do note that my Powell Cooper head goes to a lot of trouble to create a chamfered-style chimney as compared to the classic Boston cut, and that - or something - certainly creates a wonderful difference as compared to the latter (at least with my headjoints).

MRCO1: Yes, the geometry of the embouchure hole is a MAJOR determinant of tone and response, especially the latter, as it is the place where the little oscillating jet of air couples with the whole air column. A lot of voodoo there, as it is an extremely complex interaction. And of course the restriction in diameter of the head joint, the so-called "parabolic curve", is a major player as well.

Boot: I don't know how wooden flutes are made - no idea if the tone holes are chamfered. They weren't on either of the wooden flutes I owned, although the edges were slightly rounded IIRC. Chamfering is a process that has to be done by hand, and carefully, so doing it would add a fair amount to the price tag. Most makers seem to follow a "good enough" policy, and are somewhat resistant to changes if the instrument seems to work reasonably well. I am reminded of the fact that Benade did research on octave pips for conical woodwinds and found out that not one manufacturer of saxes makes an octave pip anywhere near ideal - they are all much too long - even though correcting that would be rather simple. It seems counterintuitive, but most makers seem to follow the maxim "If it ain't broke don't fix it", even when real improvements could be made.

Toby

[Bootman]

Toby,
I wonder whether the resistance to change in any instrument is often becasue the people who purchase these instruments are usually resistant to change.

On the wooden flute chamfering of toneholes, this I thought would have been counter intuitive to have this done to any high quality wooden flute! I also wonder why the manufacturers who are charging a small fortune for each flute they always seem to look for a shortcut to increase profits!

It would be nice to see a well made wooden flute that is affordable which has these qualities and finesse of a hand made flute. I have heard that soldered toneholes do improve the tonal depth of a hand made flute. My own thoughts are that it is just one part of a whole complex question regarding bore and what gives the best tone.

[MRC01]

I wonder why we don't see flutes made of plastic. It is an ideal material to work with: you can get any shape you like, contoured/chamfered tone holes of infinitely varying size down the length of the tube, any wall thickness, etc. You can get any recipie of hardness, elasticity, etc. Any degree of smoothness or roughness you like, inside the bore (for tone) or outside (for no-slip grip). It's inexpensive and readily available. No tarnishing, no aging (with a sufficiently UV resistant plastic).

Also regarding headjoints I always thought the conical taper down toward the crown was primarily for intonation - to prevent the high notes from going sharp. No? Perhaps it affects tone quality too but I didn't think that was its primary purpose.

[woodwindNYC]

I wonder why we don't see flutes made of plastic.

PJ Hardy makes a "Poor Man's Wood Flute" out of a plastic they call Til-Lite. The Matit bros. also make a flute out of a carbon fiber composite, which isn't exactly plastic, but it's not any of the above, either. ;)

[Gordon (NZ)]

It has to be thick-walled, like a clarinet, to securely support the keywork, and have rigidity. This means weight. Perhaps the weight is sufficient to make it a poor option for supporting horizontally.

Not weight problem with piccolos.

Plastics expand a lot (relative to metal) with heat, interfering with pivots. So using metal makes for much more accurate mounting of the mechanism.

Perhaps the question could be reworded, why aren't clarinets normally made from metal? The bore is so small that the tube easily bends, unless it is made with a very expensive double tube, hollow construction.

[Ken]

I've had the 711 for several days now playing it a couple hours a day. So far, compared to the Gemeinhardt 33SB (with J1 headjoint) that I've been playing for the past 16 years:

Tone quality: VERY similar. My wife didn't even notice that I got a new flute. 711 is slightly less projecting (which I prefer), more "rounded" with less edge (which I prefer). The 33SB tone is *slightly* better below low G because its extra edge to the tone helps down there. But this difference is rapidly diminishing as my lips learn the different headjoint of the 711. I can also get bigger dynamic contrasts with the 711 - and I'm not even used to its headjoint yet!

Response: 711 is far easier to blow. The 33SB is "stiffer" - very difficult for example to blow the "G" and "E" overtones while fingering low C. The 711 instantly responds to all overtones, slurs high E to high A no problemo. It's so sinfully easy to play it almost makes me feel guilty. With the 711 I am cruising through Anderson, Berbiguer and Reichert like never before. Sometimes I have to stop just to wipe the SEG off my face :blob:

Intonation: no contest. The 33SB uses old scale: E and F are flat, D is sharp, everything below low G is flat, C# is sharp, high E and F# are sharp, etc. all the typical old scale problems. The 711 plays like a Haynes cooper scale flute. From bottom B to high C, over 3+ octaves of range nothing is more than a few cents from dead-on. Highest Bb is a bit flat, but this note is slightly flat on virtually all flutes even modern Cooper/Bennet/Devaux scale.

Keywork: comparable. Both have top quality keywork - smooth, fast and silent. But the 711 feels slightly smoother and is a bit more comfy simply because the 33SB is in-line while the 711 has an offset G. Even though I have big hands and have played inline for 16 years, it took all of 2 minutes for me to like the offset better.

Build quality: tube straightness, tone holes, fit & finish, etc. both have the same very high quality.

The bottom line: This 711 blows me away. I've played a lot of different flutes over the years, some costing more than ten times what I paid for the 711. I had already engaged a couple of flute brokers with a budget 3-4 times what the 711 costs, but I've already called off the search. The 711 is a keeper and I'll be ebaying the 33SB, my old trusty friend for the past 16 years.

I have a Jupiter flute that I bought new around '92. It doesn't have a model number on it but I think it is equivalent to the 711 because it is silver throughout and cost about $600 US which accounting for inflation would be equivalent to about $1K today.

Comparing it to my old student Yamaha it is easier to blow in the 3rd octave but harder below low G. The Yamaha is very easy to blow down low. Soundwise I prefer the Yamaha slightly. The Yamaha has what I consider to be a darker full sound. All things considered, I'm sticking with the Jupiter because it has a low B, and open tone holes.

[Edit] However if I were to buy a new flute I would most likely look at a Yamaha closed hole (based on previous SOTW posts I've read) with low B with the possibility of upgrading the head at a future date.

[MRC01]

I think it is equivalent to the 711 because it is silver throughout and cost about $600 US which accounting for inflation would be equivalent to about $1K today.

Comparing it to my old student Yamaha it is easier to blow in the 3rd octave but harder below low G. The Yamaha is very easy to blow down low. Soundwise I prefer the Yamaha slightly. The Yamaha has what I consider to be a darker full sound. All things considered, I'm sticking with the Jupiter because it has a low B, and open tone holes.

According to Jupiter the 711 came out in '98, so yours is not a 711. Perhaps it is the predecessor model. The 711 retails for around $1850 USD new and most discount places sell it for around $1200. I picked mine up new B stock - a mint condition new flute that had been played in store - for about $900.

Here is more info on the 711 that I got from Jupiter: it is Cooper scale, A=442, 0.925 silver, 0.16" wall body and head.

I have one BIG question for you. I've been wanting to try a Yamaha to compare. How does the Yamaha scale compare to the Jupiter?

[Ken]

According to Jupiter the 711 came out in '98, so yours is not a 711. Perhaps it is the predecessor model.
Yes, that's what I was thinking.

I have one BIG question for you. I've been wanting to try a Yamaha to compare. How does the Yamaha scale compare to the Jupiter?
In terms of scale I think they are both good. Perhaps the C# is a bit sharp on the Yamaha, but that's about all I notice. However, my Yamaha is quite old, maybe '80s or before, and is a lower end student model. I'm assuming the tuning on the more expensive models would be better.

[Bootman]

Further hunt results.

I spent some time last week re-testing some of the flutes I played in the last round of the search. The most interesting discovery was how nice the Sankyo, solid silver, soldered tone holes etc... no C# trill but split E mechanism. It played very nicely indeed, a big solid tone in all registers, worked very nicely with my Gold headjoint.

Next re-test was a Muramatsu inline G AD model, also played well but, solid tone in all registers but the condition of repair of the instrument let it down somewhat. The lack of a B Foot joint seemed to make it brighter and give it a little more zing or sparkle. This isn't the sound I am after.

Lastly I test drive a Lehner Flute, solid sivler hand made flute with no split E (had the Donut in the G tone hole facillitator option), low B foot and a recent pad job. This was the pick of the litter so to speak. this flute did everything, soft/ loud with even timbre, no loss of tone or power when playing the Low B, effortless 3rd regster and a fantastic scale. This was the pick of all the flutes I test drove again. The only down side to this flute was the inline G which did cause some discomfort to the hand, over time I feel that the cramping of the hand in this position would cause further wrist or tendon problems.

More to come.

[JButky]

Further hunt results.

Lastly I test drive a Lehner Flute, .......This was the pick of all the flutes I test drove again. The only down side to this flute was the inline G which did cause some discomfort to the hand, over time I feel that the cramping of the hand in this position would cause further wrist or tendon problems.

More to come.

If you really end up liking this flute you could get an extension for the G similar to the one Brannen makes.. Here's a picture:


http://www.brannenflutes.com/extensions.html

At least it's an option for the one problem...

Joe B

[Bootman]

Very interesting but the Lehner Flute is open Hole? I covered the hole with a plug which helped but it was still on the uncomfortable side. I could just try for an open hole off-set G model for a little more money.

I find it very interesting that inline G flutes are available much more cheaply with the same features than the identical off-set G model. I also wonder to what advantage the inline G really is over the off-set. Any ideas, knowledge or wisdom on this greatly appreciated.

[woodwindNYC]

I find it odd that you are being charged more for an offset flute...here in the US, they're the same price. It's simply a matter of preference...

Also, those Brannen key extensions *are* for an open hole flute.

There is absolutely no advantage of having an inline G acoustically. It is simply easier to construct those keys on one rod than to add a seperate rod for the offset G. Simply a time-saver for the maker. Theobald Boehm himself specified that the flute have an offset G...

Again, you should NOT be charged more for an offset flute. That's total crap!

[JButky]

I find it very interesting that inline G flutes are available much more cheaply with the same features than the identical off-set G model. I also wonder to what advantage the inline G really is over the off-set. Any ideas, knowledge or wisdom on this greatly appreciated.

As Woodwind said, Here in the states it's the same price for either.

The Offset is actually a much sturdier mechanism with extra posts and ribbing presenting less stress on the steel..

Back in the day, the Old Flutemaker Masters decided it was cheaper to make them in line by eliminating the extra hardware, it was more "aesthetically pleasing", and most importantly, they could charge the same amount for doing less work!

Offset is much more ergonomic for many people and the mechanism is certainly much more robust! (this is why the vast majority of Split E mechanisms are on Offset G's, the inline's just can't take the stress compared to an offset of the traditional Split E leverage!)

Joe B

[bruce bailey]

One other advantage to the offest is less binding of the LH stack. I get people bringing me flutes saying high F# won't work sometimes. I ask if it is when going from high F to F#. They fool around with passages and exclaim YES. This is caused by the long rod inside the LH section holding Bb, A and the pair of G keys. When playing high F, the middle finger is up which makes the G finger tend to push sideways on the key(s). This causes the Bb pad (closed by the first finger of the RH) to bind when being lifted to make high F#. This is not a big problem on worn flutes or cheapos. With an offset, the G keys are riding on their own rod thus eliminating the binding problem. For those who think offset is too far off, I can make a half offset but that one costs about $250 extra and everything needs to be made special for fitment.

[fluteragious]

I have made key extensions before to make an in line G flute to an offset. It just had a plug on the back of it and worked like a plug o for open hole flutes.
Pretty easy to make too. So, if you really do like that Lerhner, then you can make one quite easily. Nice to hear that about the Sankyo. I am in the process of looking for a good back up flute and had considered trying one of their lower end models.

[Bootman]

Interestingly enough I have played off set G Lehner flutes that are as good if not better than this inline G model.

On the cost issue here, it is simply a matter of nobody wants to buy these inline G models so they reduce the price of them to make them more attractive to buyers.

I will be back into the shop later in the week here to play test a few more things. The Hunt continues.

It has been on hold here for the last couple of weeks due to bass sax acquisitions and actually being far too busy to get there during daylight hours.

[Gordon (NZ)]

I have made key extensions before to make an in line G flute to an offset. It just had a plug on the back of it and worked like a plug o for open hole flutes....

Well, sort of, but not quite. That is really an extended, plugged, in-line G.

"Off-set" or "in-line" really refers to the hinge axes, rather than the key cups or the touch-pieces, although it folows that these will also become offset.

An "off-set G" key is mounted on its own "offset" hinge, such that the mounting is independent of the A & Bb keys. This makes the mounting of all 4 keys involved, a lot more secure. Having the hinging independent can be also be a huge difference if a split E is involved. Without this off-set mounting, a conventional split E mechanism can tend to jam the pivoting of the Bb key.

[bruce bailey]

I am actually in the process of making some sax players' flutes. I have decided that they will have an offset G with all of the LH keys closed holed, a flatter G# lever, bis key, RH G-A shake, RH F# chromatic lever and the RH keys open hole. A LH low B (by the G#) lever will be optional. This will never sell to a "real" flute player, but who needs them anyway. Sax players complain less!

[fluteragious]

Well, sort of, but not quite. That is really an extended, plugged, in-line G.

Oh, whatever Gordon:? ...

I made an extension on the in line G to make it off set. Of course I didn't move any rods. Give it whatever terms you would like, I still made it in the offset playing position. (Rolles eyes!)

[Gordon (NZ)]

Oh, whatever Gordon:? ...

I made an extension on the in line G to make it off set. Of course I didn't move any rods. ..... I made it in the offset playing position. (Rolles eyes!)

Quite :!: Not... :?
:| (Rolls eyes also!)

[fluteragious]

Okay, Gordon then please tell me why after adding an extension onto the in line G and making it right where an offset one would have been, would not make this and extension? It IS and extension, which does make it in the offset G POSITION. How on earth can you argue something like that? Do you like to disagree with others just to cause friction, or are you just board?

What do the rest of you think. Come on jump in, don't be afraid. When is a key extension, not an extension? Lol!!!! Go away Gordon, and pick on someone else...

[Ol Danl]

Hey, Bruce, the "sax player" flutes sound pretty interesting -- and I consider myself a flute player first, although not a "real" anything. What is the reason for the RH G-A shake? Will you still have the Bb shake?

[woodwindNYC]

I am actually in the process of making some sax players' flutes. I have decided that they will have an offset G with all of the LH keys closed holed, a flatter G# lever, bis key, RH G-A shake, RH F# chromatic lever and the RH keys open hole. A LH low B (by the G#) lever will be optional. This will never sell to a "real" flute player, but who needs them anyway. Sax players complain less!

I believe Jeanne Baxtresser would quite disagree with you on that, as would Moyse, were he still with us. A flute modified in any fashion to make playing it more comfortable and less injurious to the wrists would indeed make us "real" flute players extremely happy.

Powell, by the way, was a huge fan of putting the auxiliary low B lever, as were Haynes and Louis Lot.

It was also not uncommon in years past to, particularly on the Continent, see a flute with closed left hand keys and open right hand keys. It was frequently referred to as an "opera" model flute.

I personally would LOVE to have such a modified instrument!

[woodwindNYC]

Fluteragious, I believe Gordon was arguing the semantic point of your post. Adding an extension to an inline flute does NOT change it to an offest G flute, literally speaking. He's quite correct...what you have is a plugged, extended inline flute that mimics the hand positioning of an offset flute, and to your fingers, it's the same thing.

However, the flute is still, mechanically speaking, an inline flute.

[fluteragious]

Point taken. Sorry, I should have said for those extremely picky people that I have made an extension for an in line flute and left it at that. Ugh...flute players, you gotta love em.. (Shakes head)

[woodwindNYC]

It's all good. :) Nothing a cocktail or six won't smooth over ;-)

(And you think flutists are bizarre, you should wander over to the Clarinet Bulletin Board...you need a Kevlar vest, a flamethrower, and a life insurance policy to post anything.)

[Gordon (NZ)]

Okay, Gordon then please tell me why after adding an extension onto the in line G and making it right where an offset one would have been, would not make this and extension? It IS and extension, which does make it in the offset G POSITION. How on earth can you argue something like that? Do you like to disagree with others just to cause friction, or are you just board?

What do the rest of you think. Come on jump in, don't be afraid. When is a key extension, not an extension? Lol!!!! Go away Gordon, and pick on someone else...

As I explained, there are other important issues involved with whether the hinge is off-set or not.
If I ordered a flute with an off-set G, and receive one with an inline G, filled perforation, and key extension, I would consider this to be a breach of counteract, and I would want my money back.

If you order a sterling silver flute and got one that was plated with sterling silver, it would have the right appearance, but it would not be what you ordered. Therefore we do not call a flute sterling silver unless the body is SOLID sterling silver.

Likewise, you don't advertise a crown-set gemstone as such unless it IS a gemstone, not made of glass, even if it serves PART of the function of a gem-stone, looking pretty.

Likewise, I think it is quite wrong to call or market a flute as off-set G unless it does indeed have that entire key OFF-SET from the A/Bb key hinge axis. To do otherwise is intentional or unintentional dishonesty.

IMHO, writing "Lol!!!! Go away Gordon, and pick on someone else..." does not somehow make it right. I was not picking on anybody. I was picking on an incorrect concept and label. Why are you trying to turn this into a PERSONAL issue? It wasn't a personal issue, and there is no need for it to be.

[fluteragious]

(And you think flutists are bizarre, you should wander over to the Clarinet Bulletin Board...you need a Kevlar vest, a flamethrower, and a life insurance policy to post anything.)

Lol! I think I am glad now that I don't play clarinet then! That is too funny!

[Ken]

According to Jupiter the 711 came out in '98, so yours is not a 711. Perhaps it is the predecessor model. The 711 retails for around $1850 USD new and most discount places sell it for around $1200. I picked mine up new B stock - a mint condition new flute that had been played in store - for about $900...
I was taking a close look at my flute last night and tucked under the mechanism I saw the marking "JFL-711R" so I guess it is a 711 after all.

(And you think flutists are bizarre, you should wander over to the Clarinet Bulletin Board...you need a Kevlar vest, a flamethrower, and a life insurance policy to post anything.)

Lol! I think I am glad now that I don't play clarinet then! That is too funny!
Actually I haven't noticed that, at least it hasn't bothered me. I don't post there much though. The moderators seem to be more strict over there. I've had a few of my posts deleted. I think it must be their classical background :D

[Gordon (NZ)]

Quoted from fluteragious
"....And you think flutists are bizarre, you should wander over to the Clarinet Bulletin Board...you need a Kevlar vest, a flamethrower, and a life insurance policy to post anything."

I am there often, and have been for a long time. I have not noticed that it is a dangerous place, and I do not think such 'colourful' language is fair to that forum. I think the moderation is also very fair, keeping the forum to respectfully discussing issues, an often demanding task, conscientiously carried out. I certainly would not want it!

As with this forum, there are many people with wide-ranging knowledge and experience in very diverse fields, and they are willing to share it, if it relates in any way at all to woodwinds and playing, making the place very interesting. Discussion can be vigorous, but the moderator intervenes when people present nonsense, or bring in personal attack, or get thoroughly boring with repetition.

Just my perspective.

[fluteragious]

[QUOTE=Gordon (NZ)]Quoted from fluteragious
"....And you think flutists are bizarre, you should wander over to the Clarinet Bulletin Board...you need a Kevlar vest, a flamethrower, and a life insurance policy to post anything."

Gordon, if you are going to quote something, make sure you put the persons proper name down that actually wrote it. I am not the one that said that.

Keep on trying... Lol!!!

[woodwindNYC]

I'm aware that not everyone has the same perspective on the BB...nobody has the same perspective on anything. I'm simply saying that, in all the years that I have been posting on and reading internet forums and Bulletin Boards, that the former Sneezy.org board is one of the most tightly moderated boards I have ever seen, and there is very much, imho, an "ole boys' club" sort of feel there...yes, Mark and GBK do a very good job of keeping it on topic, however, there is a great deal of confrontation, argumentativeness, and harshness that seems to happen there.

However, there IS wonderful information, which is why I have used it for what must be at LEAST ten years now, ever since the very earliest days of the board...

As with everything, YMMV.

I have to say, though, these SOTB cats are MUCH cooler :-)

(I think I can have my Classical Snob card taken away for using the word "cats" to refer to anything but furry tailed creatures, so don't tell anyone I said that :-P)

[bruce bailey]

The G-A shake would enable a RH trill by fingering A an dusing the tang of the G with the RH and for G#-A, hold down the G# key too. The Bb shake would be there making it 3 buttons haning on. Not really a big deal with the $$$. As far as the LH low B, one of my first Powells (2050) had it and the way it was strung, you could remove it and just have 2 posts remaining with no spring (it was on the key).

[Gordon (NZ)]

[quote=Gordon (NZ)]Quoted from fluteragious
"....And you think flutists are bizarre, you should wander over to the Clarinet Bulletin Board...you need a Kevlar vest, a flamethrower, and a life insurance policy to post anything."

Gordon, if you are going to quote something, make sure you put the persons proper name down that actually wrote it. I am not the one that said that.

Keep on trying... Lol!!!

Yes, I made an error. Sorry. But that was because you did exactly what you accuse me of doing. You yourself wrote the statement in post 85, without attributing it to anybody else, nor putting it in quotation marks. It was fair then, for me to assume that it was YOU saying it. :-)

[fluteragious]

Well now... e..x...c...u...s..e, me..I thought that I did quote it, but apparently it didn't show up. I am not used to everything on this particular board as I don't post much on here. If you would have bothered to follow the thread then you would have known.

Okay WoodwindNYC, do you have an extra flamethrower that I could borrow. Lol!! (Joke, of course!)

[Gordon (NZ)]

Definitely all my fault, of course.
I appologised once.
Now I apologise for missing the thread that you quoted without quoting.
I COULD say "If you would have bothered to" look back and see that you were remis in not making your quote clear, then there would be no confusion, but that would be very tit-for-tat ish.

It would be really nice if we could keep to the 'spirit' of this particular forum. Perhaps you are too new here to know that it does not operate like certain squably (to put it mildly) flute forums. Please? .... Keep to discussion of ideas? It is just such a waste of time. If there are misunderstandings, just simply point them out for clarification, rather than getting all . . . ....... Far too much of that already in the flute forums!!!!

[fluteragious]

Gordon, it looks like you need to follow your own advice. Oh and of course, appoligy excepted.

[woodwindNYC]

*ahem* :-)

So, Boot, y'find a flute? Did you give the Lehner another toot?

[Dr G]

fluteragious,

Forgive me if I haven't read all your posts but I've read enough on this thread to ask "Do you bring any value to this forum other than to irritate people?"

No LOL intended because I don't think you are very funny.

[fluteragious]

Speaking of trying out flutes. Phil is sending me a Sankyo to try out. I am looking for a good backup flute, still. I have not yet tried Sankyo but have heard great things about them. He is also sending me a Sonare to try out. Now, if only I could have one of every brand...:D I have a 574 Yamaha on trial right now and forgot how solid the mechanism is on them. It is also much lighter then my Powell. Question... does anyone know why Powell flutes are so much heavier then other brands?

George, not sure how I irritated you and I am not trying to be funny, so I find that very rude. I don't know how on earth talking about a key extension got to this and excuse me if I got a bit irritated.

[fluteragious]

Speaking of trying out flutes. Phil is sending me a Sankyo to try out. I am looking for a good backup flute, still. I have not yet tried Sankyo but have heard great things about them. He is also sending me a Sonare to try out. Now, if only I could have one of every brand...:D I have a 574 Yamaha on trial right now and forgot how solid the mechanism is on them. It is also much lighter then my Powell. Question... does anyone know why Powell flutes are so much heavier then other brands?

[woodwindNYC]

Which Sankyo is he sending you? I was just there on Saturday with Rebecca and played every Sankyo in stock. There's a 14K with two footjoints that was absolutely phenomenal, and oddly, a 201 that really knocked my socks off. He also has a used C-foot Sankyo handmade (I think it's several years old, it would be equiv. to the 401 now) that's only $2,500. Curious to hear what you think of them...

I'm having my Legacy worked on now, so I'm using a Sonare piccolo, and I have to say that I'm quite impressed with it. Don't have as much exp. with the flutes, though...

[fluteragious]

He is sending me the 201 as I am trying to keep my budget under $2,500.
I am really excited now since you said you really like it. You are so lucky to be able to visit the shop like that. Phil is so aweome, I just love that guy! I bought a Burkart piccolo from him last month. Do you remember which headjoint that you had on the 201 when you tested it? I requested the FT. I used to own the NRS-1 head, but when the FT came out, I liked that one a little bit better. I will probably get the flutes either today or tomorrow, so I will let you know what I think of them. I really should just stick with this $1600 Yamaha that I have on trial now and I would save a lot of money, but after talking to Phil, he sort of talked me into trying out the other flutes. He is good at that! :)

[woodwindNYC]

I tried it with the FT, and then I played it with an 18K Lafin. Both were great, the Lafin was phenomenal.

[bruce bailey]

NYC, you said Legacy, is that a gold one? I may have one coming in on trade.

[fluteragious]

Josh, I received the flutes from Phil today. I was pleasantly surprised by the Azumi that Phil decided to put in the box also. What a great flute! The Sankyo, was nice, but just didn't fit me. He only had a 6000 Sonare and not the 7000 to send me. I have to say I was very disappointed with it. On this particular model, I felt the mechanism was not all that great. It had a nice sound, but the body???

The Azumi was clearly the winner of the three that Phil sent me, but when I added the used Yamaha 574 that I have on consignment from FW I knew that was the one. I don't care for the EC on it at all, so I put my extra Williams head on it, and it plays with a nice sweet flexible and well focused sound. I used to play on a Yamaha 581 for years, so that might be why I am more comfortable with it. I am really impressed with the built and the smooth mechanism on it. I never remembered mine being that nice.

Now, I am just wondering if I should go for a newer 674 instead of the used one. I wonder if the newer 600 series is now even better then the used to be 500 series. Anyone know?

[Tim Price]

http://www.burkart.com/e/env/index.html?sid=000185b85EQOoI0VYc8G8t8&link=/index.html

Burkart ? Something to consider. :)

I got to try one. SOON!!!

[fluteragious]

I did try a Burkart flute a couple of weeks ago. Very nice! I would really like to try the Brannen Millennium.

[Tim Price]

I did try a Burkart flute a couple of weeks ago. Very nice! I would really like to try the Brannen Millennium.


fluter- THANK YOU. :D I'd love to try a Brannen Mil too. Enjoy your search and quest. Thanks for thr responce,8-)

[Bootman]

Further news on the hunt.
I tried the Muramatsu DS, SR, AD plus the Miyazawa hand made Boston Classic in silver and a Lehner hand made in line and off set G models.

The Muramatsu's were all great, various levels of sonic difference and repsonse were experienced when play testing them. The clear winner in terms of depth of tone, projection and for want of a better word, sheer grunt, was the SR. The tone was the most complex, the biggest and most resonant of the Muramatsu range. I didn't test any gold flutes as they were out of my price range.

The AD had the smallest sound which was mostly due to needing a repad, but it did articulate and repsond more quickly than the DS model. The SR had a similar response time and articulation tendencies to the AD model, the thicker, darker tone was very pleasant on the ears but the down side was that the note had a tendency to develop after you had played it, not immediately but a fraction later. This was disconcerting until you grew accustomed to this tendency.

The Miyazawa was fantastically beautifully built Flute, it oozed quality but the sound was light, bigger and darker than some of the lesser models but still light to my ears. The response and articulation where fantastic but it didn't have enough body to the sound for what I was looking for.

The darkest with the most immediate response in articulation was the Lehner flutes. The sound was very close to the Muramatsu but the response was instantaneous, fast tonguing passages where effortless, scale was impeccable and the sheer volume possible out of this flute was amazing. I then test drove an off set G model, one serial numebr before the inline G model, no straubinger pads this time, had the same response ad darkness of tone. The Straubingers made the FLute repsond slightly better, it was touch and go between the two of them but in the end I decided on the off set G Lehner fully hand made. Ironically it was the second cheapest of the Flutes I played. I have found what i am looking for and now I just have to learn how to get th efull potential out of this Flute. Pics to come in the coming weeks after I pick it up.

[woodwindNYC]

The Legacy I was referring to was my (Emerson) Boston Legacy ironwood piccolo, Bruce.

I've heard that the keywork on the Sonare flutes isn't all that wonderful, fluteragious. I am, however, extremely pleased with their altos and the new piccolo.

Sorry you didn't like the Sankyo...I guess they're not really for everyone! Interesting about the Azumi...but anything from the Altus camp can't be bad. (I think Altus is probably the most underrated flute maker on the map right now.)

Don't know what to tell you about the Yamaha...if you like the 574, then go for it! I haven't played any of the newest models, so I can't give a fair comparison.


Tim, the Flute Center of New York in Columbus Circle has some very nice Burkarts in stock right now that you could try. I played an extremely fantastic gold one the other day...Lillian is making unbelievable instruments. (And the piccs!!! OY!!)

Not a huge fan of the Brannen Millennium, but I'm not a big fan of Brannen flutes in general.

I can't wait to see your Lehner pics, Bootman! I've always wanted to play one, but I've as yet not been able to get my hands on one.

Congrats!

[Gordon (NZ)]

Bootman, my head that came with my hand made, top-of-the-range sterling Muramatsu about 20 years ago, is a huge disappointment by today's standards. The head on the Muramatsu EX and GX leaves it for dead. I don't think there is ANY current professional head that does not leave it for dead.

So in the light of the fact of manufacturers' heads changing over the years, pretty well always for the better, would it not be possible that a lot of the differences you find between different flutes may be caused by the age of the head.

Or are you comparing all these flutes using the same head.

If so, then then is it not a consideration that to SOME extend, a head is designed to match the design of the rest of the flute? I.e. you may be just mismatching for certain combinations?

I'm just wondering exactly how you are comparing these flutes, and how valid the comparisons actually are.

I fully acknowledge that comparing any pro flutes is a complicated matter.

[fluteragious]

Congrats Bootman! I also will be looking forward to seeing a picture of it. I bet you can't wait! :)

[MRC01]

Lehner flutes ... Ironically it was the second cheapest of the Flutes I played. I have found what i am looking for and now I just have to learn how to get th efull potential out of this Flute. Pics to come in the coming weeks after I pick it up.
Super - thanks again for your detailed comments along the way. It helped me too find my flute. I finally sent that Jupiter 711 back... I liked everything about it except the wimpy sound. I finally did get a big foghorn bass out of it but it took such an extreme embouchure I've had sore jaw muscles from playing. Also the tone was still a tad soft overall. And even though it was based on Cooper scale and FAR better than my old 3SB, it still had an annoyingly sharp C# and slightly flat middle E and F and high B flat.

So I sent that 711 back (thanks to WWBW's generous 45 day return policy) and just picked up a slightly used (1 month old) Jupiter 1011 for $1200 USD. It has a better headjoint and a slightly different scale. This addresses the only two things I didn't like about the 711, so I hope this one is a keeper.

That 711 was a really nice flute... I really tried to like it. But every time I picked up my 3SB the tone was so much better and reminded my why I've been playing it for 16 years. If the 3SB didn't have such a horrible scale I would be keeping it. Now if the 1011 doesn't work out I may be looking at a Lehner ;)

[Bootman]

Gordon,
I have been using the supplied Head joint plus using my Gold/ Platinum head joint that is like wearing an old pair of worn in boots. I did try all the options available, all dynamic ranges, fast articulations, obscure techniques I could think of on all the instruments.

To All,

The AD was very good but compared to the SR, it was in a different league, even taking into account the variation in padding and the leaks. All the other flutes where brand new, set-up and speaking very nicely indeed. THe playing field was as leel as I could make it. In the end the biggest reason for chosing the Lehner over the Top end Sankyo HandMade, Muramatsu and Miyazawa was the price. These flutes were all so close, it was like splitting straws to find a difference and in the end I had to go with what felt right to me and what I was looking for in a Flute.

The Lehner I chose was out of 3 identical types of solid silver handmade flutes all within 5 serial numebrs of each other. I chose the biggest and darkest one I could, it was also the heaviest.

It might be time to offload a head joint or two. Any interest in a silver tube solid platinum chimney/ riser head joint of the John Lehner manufacture.

[bruce bailey]

I regard to the Burkart, they have a drawn hole model in the $7K range which one of my former students bought. It was one of the best flutes I ever played. She paid around $7,300 with a C# trill and platinum riser. A rather sharp drop off on the front of the lip but still had a full sound.

[MRC01]

Gordon,
The AD was very good but compared to the SR, it was in a different league, even taking into account the variation in padding and the leaks. All the other flutes where brand new, set-up and speaking very nicely indeed. THe playing field was as leel as I could make it. In the end the biggest reason for chosing the Lehner over the Top end Sankyo HandMade, Muramatsu and Miyazawa was the price. These flutes were all so close, it was like splitting straws to find a difference and in the end I had to go with what felt right to me and what I was looking for in a Flute.

I also finally found my keeper flute - this Jupiter 1011. It has a D2 headjoint which suits me quite well - big bottom register with a singing midrange and sparkling top end that is *not* shrill. Big range in tone color and dynamics and easy to play. Intonation is even better than the 711 (which was pretty good to begin with). Exactly what I was looking for: tone, dynamics and playability as good or better than my trusty old 3SB with a superior scale and intonation.

[Gordon (NZ)]

Just going back a little in this mthread, to http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showthread.php? p=343984#post343984 , i.e:


........
At a masters class I saw Galway pick up a flute and say, "This is what a silver flute sounds like", then play a tune. Then he raised the same flute to his lips and said, "This is what a gold flute sounds like", play the same tune with a different tone color. Rampal has done the same.

So why did Rampal play a gold flute? Because flute makers spend greater care and attention building a $30k flute of gold, than when building a $10k flute of silver. No surprises there.

There is a legend that Albert Cooper once made a new headjoint and tested it out in front of a few fellow flute makers. He left the them spellbound wondering what it was: gold? platinum? a gold/platinum alloy? It was a melted down saucepan. His point - it's the geometry and cut, not the materials.....

... A similar Galway demo can be heard at "Platinum, Gold, Silver", at
http://www.thegalwaynetwork.com/vanclass/ubcclass.htm

[fluteragious]

Some people can argue that material makes no difference, but myself I find that it reacts differently when played.

[ving]

Okay, forgive my questions but i have wondered the following:

1. If Mr.Galway was playing the same flute on that demo clip, and showing the different colors you can get out of the same flute, I wonder this--doesn't that support the argument that different materials would have a different sound? I get the drift that the intent is to show that the player will have more control over the tonal variations in the end, but was his intent to have each example sound audibly different?.

2. If he used the same flute for all the samples, what material was the flute?


I think its true that a player of a high caliber can most likely get any material flute to sound well, but isn't there a degree of additional work required to make a nickel plate flute produce the tone as compared to solid silver or other materials? I ask only because I seem to notice a difference between a solid flute and my nickel plate body flute--maybe the sound isn't noticeable but to me the response seems better on a solid body, which is why I somewhat regret only getting the nickel plate....

[ving]

Okay, forgive my questions but i have wondered the following:

1. If Mr.Galway was playing the same flute on that demo clip, and showing the different colors you can get out of the same flute, I wonder this--doesn't that support the argument that different materials would have a different sound? I get the drift that the intent is to show that the player will have more control over the tonal variations in the end, but was his intent to have each example sound audibly different?.

2. If he used the same flute for all the samples, what material was the flute?


I think its true that a player of a high caliber can most likely get any material flute to sound well, but isn't there a degree of additional work required to make a nickel plate flute produce the tone as compared to solid silver or other materials? I ask only because I seem to notice a difference between a solid flute and my nickel plate body flute--maybe the sound difference isn't noticeable but to me the response seems better on a solid body, which is why I somewhat regret only getting the nickel plate....

[Gordon (NZ)]

My understanding was that there were three different flutes, and the sound pretty well identical from each. Galway says at the end that the first was platinum, then 24 Carat gold, and then a Yamaha 400 (sterling silver).

"I think its true that a player of a high calibre can most likely get any material flute to sound well, but isn't there a degree of additional work..."

Yes, it is more work to get a good sound from a more poorly DESIGNED flute. Whether the MATERIAL has anything to do with this is debatable.

"... I ask only because I seem to notice a difference between a solid flute and my nickel plate body flute"

It is likely that the DESIGN and control over the exact dimensions is likely to represent more effort in the solid silver flute than a nickel plated flute. The difference you perceive may well be nothing to do with the plating, and everything to do with design, and dimension control, at manufacture.

".... the sound isn't noticeable but to me the response seems better..."

Ah yes. The difference between SOUND, and RESPONSE is often overlooked. I am not aware of any controlled testing of response. "Response", to me, means how quickly, and easily, the flute does what the player wants it to do.

[ving]

Thanks,

I wasn't sure of that--on the samples it switches between flutes so quickly I thought maybe he was playing the same flute differently each time and emulating the sound of the materials each time. Anyhow, I could hear sllight differences but of course the fundamental sound is Galway not the flute. Yes, Gordon, I think the focus should be on response not on sound alone...

[Gordon (NZ)]

"on the samples it switches between flutes so quickly I thought maybe he was playing the same flute"

I wondered about that too. Perhaps the silences while changing flute were edited out of the recording. Who knows.

[MRC01]

I've seem them go both ways. Rampal would pick up his (gold Haynes) flute and say, "This is what a gold flute sounds like" and play a tune. Then he would put the SAME FLUTE to his lips and say, "This is what a silver flute sounds like" and play the same thing with a different tone color.

Galway did it the other way. Played 3 different flutes, they all sounded the same. At least, any differences were so subtle that nobody in the audience heard them and it would take golden ears and hairsplitting to tell the difference. And even if one *could* hear a difference, preference is a totally different thing. In a double blind test those few who could hear any difference at all might express a preference for the student flute. Flute snobs might scoff at the idea but experiments show that truth is stranger than fiction.

Bottom line is, every headjoint is cut differently, flutes are designed and built differently, and players blow them differently. If materials alone make any difference in the sound - which is a dubious proposition - whatever little difference it makes would be swamped by these much larger differences.

[shmuelyosef]

In a way yes, this is being done. If you examine different flutes you will immediately notice some rather remarkably differences in the area where the bore meets the tone hole. Some are almost chamfered and others are razor sharp. You can round and soften these razor edges to improve response. Not to the degree that you could undercut a wood flute, but even a softening of the edge to a radius is a big improvement.

Joe B
This is the same (probably more pronounced) with saxophones. At the extreme are horns like the Super 20, with sharp edges on brazed toneholes (very responsive but brittle to some) to the Yanagisawas with slightly radiused drawn holes (IMO the best compromise...similar to Selmer but more even around the hole), to the German horns (e.g. Keilwerth) with very soft-edged toneholes that produce very spread sounds and are more work to get crispy attacks and articulation.