Ethical Customs Question

[WillieB]

When someone buys a saxophone from you (I'm in the US) and asks you to devalue the horn to avoid customs fees, do you do it? Does anyone have any ethical problems with putting less on the forms? Or do you tell the buyer "this is what you paid, this is what I have to put down."

I've just sold a few horns and this is what some folks are asking me to do. I'm such a straight shooter, that this gives me pause. Some pros and cons and other advice would be great.

Thanks in advance.

[Dave Dolson]

Willie: Always tell the truth. DAVE

[Grumps]

Especially if it's an Ebay sale with a record of the sales amount.

[WillieB]

Thanks Dave & Grumps. That is how I feel. My mama always said, "you don't have to remember the truth".

[Grumps]

It's also good to put in Ebay ads (when your sales are open to international bidding) that you will insist upon proper valuation for customs.

[makemyday]

Clerks! I bet you also insist on paying all your taxes in full? And refuse to play gigs that are payed in cash and not reported?

I'd say, guve someone a break and let him have his horn for the price he wanted to pay. VAT can run up to 19% in some countries (like mine). Also, the buyer is also taking a risk: in case of damage he will not be able to get more than the devaluated price, i.o.w. he is letting you send the horn uninsured.

If this is representative of the way you approach life, I'd hate to listen to any of you guys playing....

[WillieB]

Call me an idiot, but yes, I do pay all my taxes. And I do report cash income. I really don't need anyone asking questions later on. In the US there is something called "Murphy's Law" and I subscribe to it.

And if approaching life with truthful representation is indicative of boring play, then my playing will cure insomnia.

[tjontheroad]

If you don't declare the full value, doing so can invalidate the shipping insurance.

[Sid]

Clerks! I bet you also insist on paying all your taxes in full? And refuse to play gigs that are payed in cash and not reported?

I'd say, guve someone a break and let him have his horn for the price he wanted to pay. VAT can run up to 19% in some countries (like mine). Also, the buyer is also taking a risk: in case of damage he will not be able to get more than the devaluated price, i.o.w. he is letting you send the horn uninsured.

If this is representative of the way you approach life, I'd hate to listen to any of you guys playing....

... if this is representative of the way you approach life I'm glad I found out now and not when I had something riding on it.

WillieB, you're being asked to enter into a criminal conspiracy to defraud customs duty. Governments tend to take a dim view of such activities and have long memories!

[fballatore]

Clerks! I bet you also insist on paying all your taxes in full? And refuse to play gigs that are payed in cash and not reported?

I'd say, guve someone a break and let him have his horn for the price he wanted to pay. VAT can run up to 19% in some countries (like mine). Also, the buyer is also taking a risk: in case of damage he will not be able to get more than the devaluated price, i.o.w. he is letting you send the horn uninsured.

If this is representative of the way you approach life, I'd hate to listen to any of you guys playing....
And if this is representative of the way you approach life, I wouldn't want you to listen.

[Rackety Sax]

Clerks! I bet you also insist on paying all your taxes in full? And refuse to play gigs that are payed in cash and not reported?


Makemyday, there are still people who insist on playing by "the rules". I don't know whether this is a virtue though. The reason it may seem so strange is that, at least here in the United States, flagrant dishonesty and shameless corruption are so endemic right up to, make that especially at, the highest levels of business and government. So why should those of us at the grass roots be suckers and live by the rules? I suppose it depends on your perspective, whether you think this society is totally corrupt but doesn't need to be that way, in which case you ought to be virtuous and live by the rules to try to help make things better. Or whether you think this society is totally corrupt, is inherently so and needs to be replaced with something else entirely, in which case why collaborate by playing by the rules? I take it you would align with the latter group. (And to anyone who would ask, what about those who think the system isn't corrupt, my reply is that I'm just practicing what the mainstream politicos and pundits call "framing the debate" ;) )

[Grumps]

Would you rather the seller take the risk for the insurance claim should the item be lost and receive the reduced value... just for being a swell guy?

[makemyday]

Would you rather the seller take the risk for the insurance claim should the item be lost and receive the reduced value... just for being a swell guy?
That's up to the seller - it's a risk he may want to take or not. If he asks for it - why not? Who knows, he may be a real musician, you know, with lack of funds etc.



this society is totally corrupt, and needs to be replaced with something else entirely, in which case why collaborate by playing by the rules
:) Sounds like me after a long night with booze & discussions. I don't think it is good to live in fear; it's good to think for yourself and live by your own rules from time to time. Worked for a lot of guys who's playing I dig :D .

[WillieB]

WillieB, you're being asked to enter into a criminal conspiracy to defraud customs duty. Governments tend to take a dim view of such activities and have long memories!

I can't justify illegal activity no matter what the rest of the world does. Again, to quote my mom, "I'm not Jeff's mother".

I have become a bit cynical with the passage of time, but am relieved that some folks feel the way that I do - and not in a high-and-mighty way, but rather a matter-of-fact sort of way.

Thanks again, my decision was always made, just wanted a couple of shouts along the way.

[Baje]

I get the impression customs expects you to be honest but not overdo it.

Example 1: Tim at Sax Alley overhauled my alto and put everything on the bill. I ended up paying more in customs duties on the repairs than I had paid for the sax originally.
My customs broker and the customs officer both asked the same question: "Why on earth did the man put so much on a repair bill?"

Example 2: I bought a mandolin from the USA for about US$1200 not realising how much duty and VAT would be. The first customs officer didn't quite believe me so he called up his chief who was equally amazed: "Lemme get this straight," he asked, "you paid US$1200 for that little foolish thing, a mandolin or whatever you call it?" I nodded sadly.

Turning to his assistant he instructed: "Value it at US$500. Customs is not in the business of taking money from obvious idiots."

Having said that, I couldn't be persuaded to put a false figure on a declaration. I would suggest the buyer get a friend in your country to buy it for him and handle the shipping.

I have, however, got people to bring in items for me which they didn't declare.

[Dog Pants]

Without wanting to enter into the "I'm more upright and honest than you are debate," I just want to add the following.
Musicians (and other folks I'd imagine) have been helping each other out in this fashion since Adam played bass for the Cave Boys.
If you want to help another musician out by cutting him/her a break on what is essentially a blatant govt money grab, then do so.
If you get a warm and fuzzy feeling every time you ride that moral high horse, then play it by the book.
The comments (....then I wouldn't want to hear you play...etc) are some of the most childish horse**** I've heard in my long time on the forum. And that's coming from someone who specialises in childish humour.

[Kritavi]

I say the value is set by the buyer. As long as the overseas buyer understands the implications relative to insurance then I am happy to oblige them. The US goverment can not account for actual trillions of dollars, other governments are equally incompetant and corrupt or worse. Maybe the war profiteers can steal a little less to make up for the difference instead of squeezing it out of musicians.
I happily oblige any musician in this way. Furthermore the issue is between the buyer and their own government so the USA in this case is making zilch on the deal anyway. I am not going to worry about interpol arresting me for what is ultimately a judgement call and not a hard fact as to value, I am just not that freakin paranoid.
Some of you all are way too uptight and unsympathetic to your fellow musicians worldwide IMHO.

[alsdiego]

Willie,

At the risk of broadening the discussion just a bit, and at the risk of going off-topic, I think you should decide what your personal ethics are, then apply them as consistently as you can. IMO, "situational ethics", when taken too far, are not ethics at all, because we human beings are absolute masters at rationalization. For example, if you believe that truthfulness is important, lying because "the Government is corrupt" is just situational ethics, which can ultimately lead to no ethics at all, and "every man for himself", which is far too prevalent in the world today. If you believe stealing is wrong, is it okay to take a 100 dollar bill from Grandma's dresser because "she's rich and I'm not..... and besides, she's a nasty old gal anyway"?? If you believe killing is wrong, what justifies killing? Fighting for your country? Protecting your family? So there are definitely "situations" where you may feel that normal ethics don't apply..... but if you go too far down that path, to where every situation is "unique", I think you individually and society in general risk losing your ethical compass, an important part of civilization. In recent years, I have seen several cases where employees blatantly used positions of trust to steal from their employers...... while that certainly isn't new, the new twist on it is the righteous indignation when the employee is caught with their hand in the till..... "I work hard, I deserve this money....... the employer is rich and corrupt, so its okay"....... and so it goes.

I think its time to adjust my medications again.............

Al

[Dog Pants]

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[Brendan Muse]

Ha!

I take the Randian view of things, where the man who is self-contained is virtuous. Is it to your advantage to cheat the system? Are you willing to take full responsibility if the system decides to cheat back? If you answered yes to both questions, go for it. If not, don't.

[Rackety Sax]

... Maybe the war profiteers can steal a little less to make up for the difference instead of squeezing it out of musicians.

Come on K, have a heart, war profiteers have to eat too! ;)

[Grumps]

That's up to the seller - it's a risk he may want to take or not.
And the only motivation being to help a guy out?
Come on... and note I'm not taking any high ground here. This is pure self-interest. If it's an Ebay sale going overseas, devaluing an item is not a smart thing for a seller to do. Now if we're talking about trading used mouthpieces, that's another story.