Bb fingerings ... bis vs. side Bb and forked [Archive]

saxduck

07-12-2003, 01:57 AM

What are your habits with respect to using the bis Bb versus the side Bb and forked?

In keys with flats, do you automatically go to the bis fingering, keeping the bis Bb touch always under your finger?

I'm curious because I grew up on an instrument that was lacking the bis Bb so the side Bb was my native choice except when I found the forked Bb more appropriate.

What is your thinking, your habit? --- and I'm sure it changes with the key you're playing in.

Also, in keys with sharps do you hold down the articulated G# key when you're playing notes lower than G#, or do you just touch it when you play G#?

Moreover, is it odd to you that there are so many ways to finger Bb and way fewer ways to finger most other non-altissimo notes? ( Voxman-Gower list 4 fingerings for non-altissimo Bb and only 1 or 2 fingerings for almost all other non-altissimo notes. So, what is the deal with Bb?

07-12-2003, 05:13 AM

Larry Teal in his "Art of Saxophone Playing" makes the following general recommendations.
Side Bb for chromatic and standard sight reading fingering.
1/4 fingers for Bb in Bb arpeggio, or Bb-D-f, F-Bb
1/5 fingers for F# arpeggio
Bis for Eb arpegios (Bb also or 1/4.)

If you are preparing charts or doing classical playing, what note comes before and after may influence your choices. Some players only learn one fingering, not wanting to bother with the work it takes to become equally proficient with the 5 different fingerings. (The fifth is 1/6 fingers).

The articulated G# works when you hold down any of the left hand table keys (if horn is in adjustment). If you need to go from low C#1 to G#1, you can leave down the low C# key and take up your other right hand fingers and get a G#1. Same for Bb1 to G# or B1 to G#. I believe some of the older vintage horns may not have the G# articulation.

The only time I leave the G# key down is if I'm trilling F to G# or F# to G#. YOu could leave it down while you play all the right hand fingers- but what's the point.

Bill Gaulke

07-12-2003, 07:06 AM

the Bb key,,???? I always use the bis key, it's easier and definitly faster,,,try going from G to Bb using the side Bb key,,,,quickly,,, haaa,,,, impossible...The side Bb key is a TRILL key,, not meant to be used in normal play, I don't care what the classical dude said... I was taught by a super jazz tenor man,, that played with Cab Calloway,,, namely Walter "Foots" Thomas...So I took what he said as the "Word".... Guess what,,,, he was right...

Now if this classical dude said to use the side Bb key for chromatic work???? It'd be intersting to see what he'd say about the side "C" key.. Which incently is also a TRILL key....Frankly I'd like to see these two keys eliminated on future horns...After all,, didn't Conn eliminate that funky G# or F# trill key????

Bill

Morry

07-12-2003, 04:29 PM

I think you use whichever fingering makes sense in the context of the passage. If you're moving up through A to Bb and then back down, the side Bb makes the most sense. If I'm moving from the other direction the 1/4 finger seems to make more sense. Honestly, I rarely even think about it. The fingers just seem to do it naturally.

Also, like the side C key, which one I use is sometimes based on whether the note is a passing tone or an extended note. In very visible extended notes, the side keys often have a clearer tone.

Frank D

07-12-2003, 04:32 PM

LOL. Stirring the pot, Bill? Maybe someone will start making a real "jazz" sax to those specs. I wonder what other modifications besides eliminating trill keys would make sense on a horn not intended for use in classical playing.

Joe

07-12-2003, 05:21 PM

Whenever trying to figure out a best possible fingering, keep in mind that the hardest movement to coordinate is picking up and putting down fingers at the same time, especially on different hands. Another consideration with the bis Bb is that it takes a lot of skill to go between B and Bb cleanly using the bis key. Some claim they can do it while others claim that it's never as clean as other fingerings. I never do it even though I can, maybe just because I was taught not to or maybe just out of habit.

I'll regularly use bis, side, 1/1, and 1/2 depending on what works the easiest considering the two points I mentioned above. It's best to learn all the fingerings because there are always passages where one fingering works a lot easier than any of the others, but only if you've practiced it enough to be comfortable with it.

averageschmoe

07-12-2003, 05:27 PM

being a saxophonist who refuses to use the side Bb or C is like being a painter who refuses to use the color blue.

Razzy

07-12-2003, 05:43 PM

MS basically summed it all up, but there is another step. Once you're comfortable with all the fingerings, and able to make a choice dependent upon the surrouding notes, you must also consider your particular instrument and how each fingering affects the intonation. For me, side Bb tends to be sharp, so I rarely use it; typically for trills or F# major/D# minor scale passages. Also the forked fingerings (1-4, 1-5, 1-6) are all a bit flat. In the F# major arpeggio, Bb major arpeggio, etc. I use biss Bb. It's the only one that is most perfectly in tune with the rest of the horn for me.

07-12-2003, 05:44 PM

Using bis for chromatics is okay when ascending but not so good descending. Having the B button pressed and then trying to reach up with the same finger (left index) to press the bis is awkward at best and impossible when playing very fast. When playing a descending chromatic scale the side Bb is preferable to the bis.

07-12-2003, 06:58 PM

Razzy - if the side Bb is sharp, put a little thicker cork on the foot of the key so the key worn't open as much (or have a repairman do this). That's an easy key to get at. :D

07-12-2003, 07:00 PM

I paid for the side Bb and side C, so I intend to get my money's worth in use! :lol:

Razzy

07-12-2003, 09:40 PM

RS, I would recommend NEVER using biss for chromatics, up or down. Getting into the habit of sliding the left index finger between regular B and biss Bb is not a good one... I know because it happened to me. Then I learned all the other fingerings and am now much better off.

07-13-2003, 02:17 AM

Sliding the left index off of the bis isn't too awkward, though I rarely use this move. But sliding the left index finger ON to the bis should definitely be avoided. There is, however, one big band chart I play (Glenn Miller's "Caribbean Clipper") that has an awkward passage involving a B to C trill (I use the side C for the trill) followed by Bb. With the right hand involved in trilling the side C I find it easiest to get to the Bb by sliding on to the bis. I tried the 1-4 Bb but still it was easier to just slide on to the bis. In 30 some years of playing sax this is the only instance where I have used this particular move. Maybe it's the exception that proves the rule.

mr00420

07-13-2003, 04:33 AM

Bill Gaulke

07-13-2003, 05:51 AM

RS

Using the bis key on chromatics???? wow,, thats when I find it very very useful...Sliding the index finger off and on the bis key,,,, nope,, don't have to,,, thats why you have a knuckle on that finger... I use my knuckle to operate the bis key and I can almost get a trill out of it...Guess I got a flexible knuckle...I never slide my finger using the bis key....I see nobody mentioned that "funky fingering" thats believe it or not that is taught some places for Bb. using the index finger of both hands... Now you talk about Bb being sharp or flat or just plain dead,, try using that fingering...that will truly accomplish that...Strange that you mentioned "Carribean Clipper",, I haven't heard that in many years..Don't know what to say about the G# bit,, If the tune calls for a G#,, it's right under my pinky finger anyway so I don't see any reason to keep it fingered all the time when playing in that key..

max

07-13-2003, 02:18 PM

I see nobody mentioned that "funky fingering" thats believe it or not that is taught some places for Bb. using the index finger of both hands...
This is what saxduck meant by "forked" - MS refers to it as 1/4 (and 1/5 for index and middle).

07-13-2003, 06:04 PM

Bill--I tried what you described as using the knuckle of the index to press the bis. I rotate the index downwards catching the bis at about the first joint of the finger. Not sure if this is what you're doing but it seems to work pretty well. I can also get to the bis by raising the tip of the index (while pressing the B button) and then catching the edge of the bis button with the edge of the index and then pressing the key down. This is something I probably would not show a student. But it works for the passage I mentioned above. I'm glad somebody else is familiar with "Caribbean Clipper". It's a pretty good piece for a Miller chart--uptempo and hard swinging. But I'm glad I don't have to play the tenor solo as the piece is in concert Gb (Ab for tenor).

Bill Gaulke

07-13-2003, 11:08 PM

RS....

Yup,, thats exactly what i meant,, it may be a little awkward at first, but if you work at it,,, you'll ever be thankful... I have shown this to my students and it has worked very well for them,,tru I did get a few crooked looks from band dir's,,but they did see what I meant....And,,, hey,, I learned something too,,,now I know whats menat by "forked fingering"...Mmmm,,, but thats o.k.,, I'd never use it anyway...

max

07-14-2003, 04:00 AM

Yeah, I never use forked (or "1 & 1," as I tend to call it) for anything but affect (like a Lester-y kind of alternate fingering on a repeated note, and even then I prefer to alternate bis and side...).

saxduck

07-14-2003, 10:16 PM

Thank you Max, yes, 'forked ' is the Bb played with fingers on both hands (usually 1+1 but sometimes 1+2 and et cetera, but not the side Bb).

I'm surprised that there are so many dissenting opinions. For me, when I'm involved with Blues, I use the bis Bb almost exclusively when the key is a fatted key. For many other situations (orchestra, for example) I use the side Bb mostly. For arpeggios in flatted keys, I find the forked Bb to be most convenient.

Ry C.

Hornlip

07-14-2003, 10:39 PM

Well, being self-taught I always assumed that I was supposed to know how to use all the keys on the horn, so I learned how to use 'em!! 8)

When I eventually got a vintage horn with the Eflat trill & G# trill, I learned to incorporate them into my playing as well. The more the merrier!!

I use side-Bflat & side-C all the time. Depends on what I'm playing -- I use what seems to work the best. I agree that the side keys seem to make C & Bflat sound better. On the older horns the Eflat trill really does seem to be good only just that -- trills. If you sit on it, the note sounded with the trill key is pretty stuffy.

Razzy

07-14-2003, 11:07 PM

I use the bis Bb often b/c I'm often playing music (jazz) which use a lot of arppegios. That being said, I KNOW it's a bit of a bad habit, and try to use the side Bb as much as possible for step-wise or chromatic runs. I think anyone will admit that the side Bb has a clearer tone than the bis Bb (atleast) and I belive the bis Bb is slightly out of tune on any horn (which is fine as long as you lip it up or down, or aren't holding the note for a longer period of time.) I think if you use the the bis Bb going anywhere from A to Bb then it's not b/c you think it's proper... it's b/c you've got lazy fingers.
As far as the side C, "Bird" used it in many famous passages (unplayable w/o it), and I would take his technique as "word."

First off, you shouldn't take ANYBODY's technique as "word"... find what works for you. I disagree that bis is a "lazy" fingering. For me, it is the most functional, most in tune, and works on most scalular and arpeggio-type passages. This is not to say ALL such passages. At times, side Bb or forked Bb (the latter of which I rarely use) are more functional. But bis seems to work the best overall. At times, using side Bb is a pain, for example if it's bridging A and C in any way. See how fast you can trill C to Bb with that, then try bis with side C, and tell me which one is easier to control and has a cleaner connection. In fact, I prefer using regular fingerings of A and C, and the bis Bb, even if it's straight up or down. The switch between C and Bis Bb comes naturally for some reason. Once again, that's what works for just me.

Side Bb sounds "clearer" because the tone hole is opening more in the direction of your ear than the front ones for bis and forked. Same goes for side as opposed to regular F#, side C as opposed to LH2, etc.

Steve J.

07-14-2003, 11:42 PM

Razzy writes:
"At times, using side Bb is a pain, for example if it's bridging A and C in any way. See how fast you can trill C to Bb with that, then try bis with side C, and tell me which one is easier to control and has a cleaner connection. In fact, I prefer using regular fingerings of A and C, and the bis Bb, even if it's straight up or down. The switch between C and Bis Bb comes naturally for some reason. Once again, that's what works for just me."

I respectfully but totally disagree. In bridging A to C it is wasted motion to move your left index finger out of position over the b key. Not closing the side key in exact time in fast playing does little to affect sound. If you trill while leaving side key down it is actually easier, faster more controllable, cleaner and you don't take the finger out of position in case you want or need to play b quickly. The reason bis is more natural is only because its similiar to finger motion with B. It is better technique to practice and make the side Bb as natural as the b movement and keep left index finger position more stable. My opinion.

jazzbluescat

07-15-2003, 01:12 AM

I use the bis sparingly also. It seems to "commit" to much, ties up two notes, B and Bb(instead of one---B).

Steve J.

07-15-2003, 01:45 AM

exactly... well said.

mr00420

07-15-2003, 04:31 AM

Razz, many folks on this forum have been playing longer than you've been alive. They might have some pearls of wisdom.

As far as something being "word," maybe you should check the context in which I used it again. Those "" marks mean I'm refering to what someone else said (or I'd be using it in a fecetious manner.) I was actually rebuking the idea that someone else's teacher's (who rejected the use of the side C, not Bb in this case,) technique should be taken as "word" b/c he was apparently a very talented and well known professional musician. My rebuttal was using that logic: The side C must useful b/c a more famous (and I would assume more talented) player by the name of Charlie Parker used the side C frequently in many of his marquee passages.

These extra keys are there for a reason and should be used when appropriate. If you play long enough you'll find passages that can't be played properly w/o them. That being said, these alt. fingerings are just that: Alternates. They shouldn't be used exclusively, otherwise you're just limiting your possibilities. These alternates are in general not as clear or in tune as the standard fingering for the note. That is why when ever possible, the standard fingering is prefered... if it's not possible, then you use an alternate.

Razzy

07-15-2003, 05:16 AM

Looks like I'm still in the minority here, as are all my teachers and those I play/gig with on a regular basis... heh, perhaps it's a Philly thing ;)

But anyway, I suppose my basic opinion is that all the Bb fingerings are alternative to eachother and equally interchangeable. I don't consider any of them to be a standard fingering because on my sax they're all darned close to center on the pitch. Most of the pitch discrepancies I hear are based on distance and angle of the tone holes to my ears. Record yourself or have somebody stand six feet away and listen for a difference in pitch. It will be much, much less than you can hear behind the horn. Not to mention, the more and more you practice a fingering you're not familiar with, granted the notes around it are pretty much in tune, the more in-tune it will become. Perhaps this has something to do with why I see them all as interchangeable.

As regards technique, that is pretty much up to the player, as all the varying opinions in this thread will testify to! I guess it's natural for more experienced players to sometimes take the arrogant tone, I can understand that. But don't get me wrong! I'm always open to suggestions, so far I have found a few passages where side Bb is very useful outside of keys like F# and C# major (specifically a chart of Bye Bye Blues with a turn from C to D to C to Bb twice in a row... scary stuff!) but am overall more comfortable with what I discovered on my own and with how I was eventually taught I discovered it correctly, heh.

07-15-2003, 07:02 PM

I just gotta say, although many of us probably have been playing longer than Razzy has lived, he sure seems to have it together for his age. His communication skills, clear writing, and open mind are traits that I'm sure put him well ahead of his peers, regardless of where he's at on the horn.

Regarding this topic, I think the discussion makes the point that there is no absolute, correct "rules" for using these alternate fingerings for Bb & C. I use the bis key most of the time for Bb because it works for me. I have no trouble whatsoever going back & forth from B to Bb using the bis key....it's just a simple rotation of my finger. Sometimes I do use the side Bb on chromatic runs. I use the side C key quite a bit but I couldn't give you a rule to cover every situation. It just feels right on certain passages. If I was to give someone advice regarding these fingerings, I'd say learn them all, experiment, and find out which ones work best for YOU in which circumstances. The "rules" should be used only as guidelines. Frankly, I guess I'm just too lazy to memorize all the rules for Bb fingerings. I'd rather just fool around with it until I find what works......but that's just me.

saxduck

07-15-2003, 07:25 PM

When I posted this topic, I wasn't thinking that there were any 'rules' like JL posts about. Rather, I felt that there may well be a consensus about which situations one would 'automatically' finger the bis Bb. Not as a hard-and-fast rule, but rather as just a recommendation - actually, I have some recommendations along these lines. I find that blues progressions in flatted keys are more easily facilitated by 'automatically' fingering the bis Bb (by this I mean keeping your finger on the bis key even when you're not playing Bb). To glissando Bb-B, the bis key is really nice. In the case of most accidentals, (Bb accidentals), I don't believe the bis key is all that useful, but this may just be due to to the fact that I grew up on a horn without the bis key.

It is curious to my mind that there are so many fingerings for Bb relative to most other non-altissimo notes on sax. A coincidence?????

Those who believe the side Bb, side C, articulated G# are trill keys - I can only believe that those people are just inexperienced. Obviously they are inexperienced.

Forked fingerings are also very useful. Arpeggios in F major are very much facilitated by forked fingerings and that's not the only situations. There are many.

To to person who feels that classical players are more intellectual and willful..... Of course they are more willful. They have little or no real musical talent and they accomplish some musical skill through doggedly hard work.... their sheer will. This is not surprising.

Bill Gaulke

07-16-2003, 12:00 AM

To saxduck,,,

I'm surprised that you'd say that someone is "inexperienced" that only uses the side Bb and C keys for trills only....I've been playing sax for about 60 yrs and yes,, I was taught by a Pro about those keys,,,and it has worked perfectly for me all these years...But i negelected to add when I made that statement that using the bis only for the Bb,,,, it does depend somewhat on the horn that you are playing... On King Zeph,,,, I noticed that the bis key isn't in the exact sme place as my Selmer B/A...The forked fingering for arpegios???? Ugh,,,,extremely awkward and slow....Also I think that a players fingers also have something to do with this....They must be very flexible,,, (no arthritis),, and being skinny helps too....I've also seen in person many "pro's),,Getz, Parker, etc... I noticed that they very seldom used them... I did see Getz use the side "C" once...And noticed that on one of his transcribed solos, it is a little easier to use the side "C"...

Silscio

07-16-2003, 12:55 AM

I have picked up the habit of relying on the bis entirely--except for trills(which I almost never encounter). I suppose that's they way I like it, I always know how to hit it, and can hit it cleanly. There is certainly no disregard for those using the side--I just find it a little inefficient for my own playing.

I think the stupidity regarding a member on this site differently because of his/her age is incredible. Such ignoble behavior subscribes to the ludicrous notion of the age old(and stupid, I might add) "because I'm older, I know more". The lunacy in this statement is not matched by many things. Such a pronounced mentality in posting creates a coercive and baleful nature to the posting that it is thus found digressing to mere childhood banter. I believe Razzy has fully shown himself to be quite capable of giving his very valid input, and he is right in this case as well. Believe me, I face the age barrier many times in these situations, with hard nosed olds informing me that my thoughts are not valid. Again, lunacy. Such behavior, as posted before, creates large social distinctions through a pervasive nature, and divide this forum, and creates a veritable heirarchy and thus inferiority and superiorty in personas being represented on this site.

Just something that I noticed that makes me frustrated...

averageschmoe

07-16-2003, 01:38 AM

"To to person who feels that classical players are more intellectual and willful..... Of course they are more willful. They have little or no real musical talent and they accomplish some musical skill through doggedly hard work.... their sheer will. This is not surprising."

little or no real musical talent? now that is a bit harsh. personally i find it much more difficult to lend expression to another's ideas than it is to lend expression to my own. to assume that musicality can be dictated by genre is ridiculous. saxduck, i urge you to read "casals and the art of interpretation" by david blum. music is much more than playing a succession of notes.

Razzy

07-16-2003, 02:23 AM

Well I'd like to thank those who... well those who defended my stance, I suppose! I'm used to dealing with the age factor. Like they say, 5 hours a day for 2 years, or 2 hours a day for 5 years... (I'm in the 4 hour a day category, with an otherwise busy life... not much sleep going on in my household :wink: ).

I'd like to address a few things. First off, I think saxduck was referring not so much to one genre lacking "talent" or whatever, I think he was actually talking about the discrepancies with the word and the concept itself: talent. Here's my take:

Talent would be if you take a random person off the street, hand him a trumpet, and say "here, play this." And he plays it beautifully, having never played a trumpet or anything like it before. Hell, having never played music before. That would be "innate musical talent."

Needless to say, little to NO people actually have such abilities. Perhaps there are some who are just supreme geniuses and can figure out exactly how the gadget works, with no need for years and years of built-up muscle memory, ear-training, and the like. So, I am of the opinion that nobody really has more musical talent than anybody else, because of my extreme definition of the concept. Music must be pursued through hard work and patience. Those "prodigies" are like that because they are very critical of themselves, began practicing at an early age, usually had some excellent training and listening from an very, very young age, the list goes on and on. For me, it took a while to figure out this is what I wanted to do. And even longer to get into a good practice routine. And even longer (erm, a couple days ago??) to do that routine every day, religiously!

Also, saxduck, what you're describing there are perhaps not rules but basically are guidelines. And the truth is that those must be gained with experience. There are certain passages, which when I sightread or learn by ear, automatically know because of my technique training, which fingerings to use. Often there are the tricky ones, that take more than a split second to work out which fingerings. After I make the conscious decision of which ones to use, I practice the passage over and over with those fingerings until it's part of my technique. Having done this process probably several hundred times or more in the past few years, often in on-the-spot situations, it comes naturally. For now just do what you already know to do: practice your scales with the various fingerings, in thirds and such to switch it up, and they'll all be down eventually. Then it's just a matter of coming across the situations in which to employ the choice.

mr00420

07-16-2003, 03:57 PM

I guess some people don't value experience. I'm still pretty young, and I still listen to my elders and expect them to know quite a few more things than I do. Especially about something so experience and practice based as playing a musical instrument. That's one reason why I visit this site.

About the classical (reader) vs. jazz (improv.,) I think someone is just trying to bust some family jewels. There's obviously no rational basis on which to back up the statements made in prior posts. I'm sure it's just a jibe... but then again, there are a lot of "chocolate bats" being pulled out of nether regions around here. I think anyone who attempts to qualify such statements are demonstrating some insecurities they have in their own playing.

P.S.: I do, though, believe all players of instruments should practice improvisation.