Olds Super Sax

[Martin Magna Commitee Sax]

I've seen this horn pop up a couple times, not to often, but it looks to me like a very unique professional instrument. But aside from the crazy flute-like key cups, neat bell engraving (Including fancy script around the rim of the bell) and cool looking wire key gaurds it looks just like a Martin Committee II body with some differernt keywork. Is this horn really a pro horn, or is it just an average stencil with low quality control? I've heard that a shipment of these horns were bought by the US army but the boat sunk, is this why this horn is rare? Can I still find this horn, or do I have to go scubadiving?

[Sigmund451]

I also have only seen one or two. I regret not buying the one I saw...if nothing else other than it looked really cool. You may need a boat.

[Randall]

Got one behind my sofa, waiting on an overhaul.
I must say it is one of those horns that just looks like it will play up a storm.
I know that makes no sense at all, but that is my impression nonetheless.

[bruce bailey]

I've seen several on ebay but none with a decent finish. You are right about the Martin Com connection as they tend to be the same with a Fullerton keywork. The nickel rim on the bell was a trademark carried over from the Super brass models. I will pick one up when the right one appears! Most are altos and I have seen about 3 Tenors.

[Randall]

Bruce have you seen any with engraving on the bell rim as the poster above describes?

Mine is a laq model tenor....would love to hear from someone who plays or has played one. I'd like to get some idea of how it plays and sounds.

[bruce bailey]

All the ones I have seen have the nickel band under the bell rim with Ss on their side which stand for Super. This should be about the same as the Trumpets. Also the Olds Super Cornet was one of the better ones.

[Sigmund451]

Randall, Im flying over and digging under your furnature and in the cracks of your couch! Anything not catalogued and etched with you name is mine ;)

[Midnitesax]

Hey guys. I just posted a lengthy post about the Olds Super responding to a thread on the Martin (stencil) category of the forum. Would love to hear any input you may have.

Seems more appropriate here but didn't want to duplicate a post listed somewhere else (I don't know the protocol about such things on this forum. Anyone?)

[silver-sax]

Crazy prices for Olds Super. Several years ago was 400-700 USD.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=280158970429&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=018

[bruce bailey]

I was an early bidder on that one and WOW.....
It really is just a fancy Martin Comm II.

[Grumps]

I got to play a silver alto set up for a show, but found nothing spectacular about it. Looked really cool though...

[mlscnr]

Steve Stransky has on on his "Sarge's Collection" page: http://www.worldwidesax.com/sarges_collection.htm

[geauxsax]

Another Olds Super on ebay--beauty, but big money for (at least to me) a little-known horn.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewItem&item=350014623501

[cymru97]

That's ridiculous! I sold one last year for $600 in great playing condition, it was a neat horn but gimme a break. I think the sunken ship thing is a load, but I guess it makes a great story and drives the prices up...

[JazzGospel]

That seller has had that on eBay for months yet no one's biting.

[silver-sax]

Interestingly how much made such saxophones.
Now I see maximal s/n 1458:

http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-COLLECTORS-SAXOPHONE-SUPER-OLDS_W0QQitemZ330282114469QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item 330282114469&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2%7C65%3A10%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318

[Grumps]

It's a good bet that L&L will have theirs on display (and available to try out) if they'll have their regular booth at the Sax Symposium in January.

[bruce bailey]

I'm watching that one. I paid over $1,500 for an alto this summer needing pads and we all know how cheap I am! These are terrific horns. My Alto is #111.

[silver-sax]

I have two altos: 105 and 1000.

[Baltimore B]

I owned one years ago. A re-lacquered one that was easily the coolest looking, best sounding horn I ever had. Trouble was, it was terribly out of tune! I'll admit that at the time I wasn't the most expereinced player so I took it around to some good players who all came to the same conclusion. Bottom line, I wouldn't pay a fraction of what they are selling for today unless you are rich and like to take risk! I paid about $500 for mine in 2000, and got that in trade towards my Chu since the person taking it wanted it for his collection (where it belongs)! I'm sure some play great, I just got unlucky in my haste for buying such a beautiful piece of bling! :D

[BigDaddyJ]

I have an original lacquered one in my hands right now. I disagree. Inotonation is about spot on; no jawing or lipping to get in tune. Just use a good airstream. When I switched from my Selmers years ago, I had to retrain myself for Martin horns. It has a much more focused sound than my 1940's Martin.

later

Joel

[cymru97]

I have an original lacquered one in my hands right now. I disagree. Inotonation is about spot on; no jawing or lipping to get in tune. Just use a good airstream. When I switched from my Selmers years ago, I had to retrain myself for Martin horns. It has a much more focused sound than my 1940's Martin.

later

Joel

Hey Joel!

If that horn hadn't gone to some one who appreciates it so much I'd have regretted selling it! That one did play awfully well and I don't recall any intonation problems either. I still prefer the lacquer look to the silverplate ones. All the best!

[bruce bailey]

My silver one is decent in intonation...about the same as most 40s horns.

[Baltimore B]

Hi Bruce and Joel, I was only speaking of that particular tenor. Most old Martins I've played were fantastic and easy to blow in tune even in those days. I love most old Martins! My point being that there are lemons out there. When I see folks selling these for big bucks on Ebay, as usual it's buyer beware. Mine was without a doubt, a lemon. Enough really good players and techs around here agreed. Like I said, I'm sure there are great ones, good ones and some that are mediocre. Heck, even the folks I was studying with at the time just said "this is a bad horn, take it back!" I learned to bring a tuner when trying a horn so in the end, it was worth it!!!!!!

I should add too that I'm not an intonation freak. If I was I'd play a modern Yani or Yamaha. I like the work you have to put in on an old Horn and the results you get from that work, it's rewarding to me!

It doesn't matter the brand, every horn is a different, agree or disagree?:)

[bruce bailey]

Maybe it is just the tenors as mine is an alto.

[Baltimore B]

Nah, I'm sure there are some great tenors around too. Really, if I could find one that played in tune and sounded as fantastic as that one, I'd buy it. It really had a sound that I fell in love with instantly. Plus that look! Martins were the first horn I really took to, just made me smile from the first note. When I bought this Olds, I didn't even know it was a Martin, I just thought is sounded as great as some of the ones I tried but couldn't afford and the price was right. Believe me, I didn't want to give that one up which is why I took it to some good techs in the area and some good players. I wanted them to tell me that I just needed to practice. It was a real bummer. Someday I'll stumble across a nice one perhaps.....

[Pflugshaupt]

Hi all. I got an super olds alto and a super olds tenor, both silver plated. I also have a collection of martin saxophones and now would like to share some info I got from comparing these horns.

I think most people get one thing wrong: It's not a Comm II with a different keywork, it's a different design. It's a Comm II-like keywork with flutekeys and a fancy octave roller mechanism on a body that resembles a "the martin" horn. The olds super has a much larger bore than a Comm II, the tenor is even larger than a the martin, in fact the largest I have seen so far.

Alto:
The Olds Super seems very close to the martin alto intonation-wise, so it's possible to play but some work has to be done. It's possible to use the olds neck on a the martin alto, so they have the same bore. Soundwise it's in my opinion close to the "the martin" but maybe a bit brighter and more modern sounding. For me the comm II has superb spot-on intonation so I played this for a while now, but I'll soon switch to the Olds because it's much more free-blowing and just very interesting to look at during those very long trombone solos :P (I take that back).

Tenor:
I have an insanely great sounding #152### the martin tenor and still I now play the olds super tenor as my main horn. I just adore the looks and I like the sound a lot! It's got a huge bore, almost 1mm larger in diameter than the the martin and it gives a very fat sound, almost baritone-like for the low notes. However... intonation really is a problem. The second octave is just very very sharp and the lowest notes are too low. It's playable with a large chamber mouthpiece, but I would prefer to play some medium chamber mouthpiece, but with that it's like the octave key functions as a minor ninth key. I believe something is wrong with the neck design of the olds super tenors, I played a different one and it had the same issues. The neck is also very long, the mouthpiece (rubber link) has to go in as much as possible to get to 440Hz which makes me think the whole system suffers from the mouthpiece chamber being way too small. I will try to have my tech modify the neck and I'm also thinking about ordering a custom neck (gloger possibly). I get some decent intonation results when using a martin handcraft tenor neck with a lot of tape.

Has anyone solved this issue and what did you do?

[OldsSuper]

The Olds Super Sax history, from a former executive at F.E. Olds & Son.

The Kanstul family runs Kanstul Music, a producer of Brasswinds previously associated with Benge. Zig Kanstul keeps business hours, but other Kanstul's appear throughout the web site for the company. He started his career working for FE Olds in the early 50's as a technician reaching the top of the company and overseeing it's success and decline. Kanstul Music has an amazing history of its own.

An alternate explanation of the Olds Super saxes. According to Mr Kanstul the Olds Super sax was made in very numbers run just before the start of WWII in the Los Angeles F.E Olds Plan. The company hired a former Martin Sax employee who had moved to the LA area(I failed to note his name during our discussion) As a result of this hire Olds developed the Olds Super sax models intended for the professional market. This was part of the companies evolving product line.

The instruments were produced in small numbers untill WWII interrupted civilian production. Mr Kanstul thought less than 2000 were produced, something beyond a prototype run, and enough to build interest in the new line. Full production wasn't ever achieved, the tooling was put in storage. The serial numbers reflect the pre-production nature of the Olds Super line. The instruments were not produced for the WWII effort, or under government contract, but they were new west coast instruments at the beginning of the war.

The similarity to Martin instruments is explained by the former Martin employee who did the design and tooling. Based on the timeframe, the Olds Super has common roots with he Martin Committee II line. In order to avoid Patent problems, the tooling was Olds proprietary production hardware and much of the construction differs from Martin instruments. The keywork, tone hole shapes 8va mechanism, and guards were unique to the Super Olds line.

Post war Olds Saxes were all made for the European branch of Olds.(the more familiar Ambassador and Parisian models). The US Olds plant never produced additional Olds Super saxes. The tooling was shipped to a sax manufacturer in Holland as Olds production ended. It was last known to be rusting in a container in a small plant in Holland. (I failed to note the name of the company)

Given Olds popular brasswind productss, and their postwar outsourcing of saxes, the Olds Super sax wasn't important to the company. No one noted it's production, serial numbers, and it faded away. Mr. Kanstul considered the sax line as a product that never developed it's own market. Much like art, it becomes more interesting when the artist can't make more.

Conclusions... A Super Olds isn't a Martin Stencil, although it shares manufacturing techniques.

Many thanks to David Browne of Anaheim Band Instruments for listening and providing references. And to everyone who in the last 10 years has listened, rendered opinions played my set of Olds Super's. Many thanks to L&L Music in Gaithersburg for repair, restoration, and patience. It's a world filled with amazing people and instruments.

The author of this article (Scott B.) is the son of a big band trombonist who loved Olds instruments. I've been playing sax since the 70's and still own my first tenor (50's Buescher 400 TH&C) I purchased my first Olds Super (Alto # 268) in 2000 as a tarnished used instrument. L&L put it in playing condition, and I still love it. I'm the L&L employee who brings my restored Super (#760) to the sax symposium, and I work part time at L&L corrupting youth, and working with players and their instruments.

So many instruments, so little time.

[bruce bailey]

Interesting story! I still have an alto #111 and it is quite nice but these are too expensive for most people these days. I did have an Olds Ambassador (Buescher) from the early 50s that was great too but totally different. I think the US made 50s Olds horns were either Bueschers or Martins.

[Jorns Bergenson]

Thanks for sharing that story. Very interesting stuff.

The similarity to Martin instruments is explained by the former Martin employee who did the design and tooling. Based on the timeframe, the Olds Super has common roots with he Martin Committee II line. In order to avoid Patent problems, the tooling was Olds proprietary production hardware and much of the construction differs from Martin instruments. The keywork, tone hole shapes 8va mechanism, and guards were unique to the Super Olds line.
I read somewhere that Martin designer Joe Gillespie left to work for F.E. Olds.

To me, there are many more simularities between the Olds Super and the Martin HC Committee models than differences. I measured the body tube of an Olds Super and found it to be virtually identical to the Comm II. Many of the keys on the Super can be interchanged with the Comm II or Centenial. They had to be made with the same machinery or machinery that was an exact copy of Martin's. For instance, the pinky key touches for both the RH and LH on the Super are identical to the Comm II's. Unfortunately, I don't have a Super anymore and prices for these horns have gotten ridiculous in recent months. Darn collectors driving prices up :TGNCHK:

I'm going to invite Steve "Sarge" Stransky to add his two-cents here since he is a Martin aficionado and has overhauled more Martins than anyone I know. He also owns just about every model as well. He has a Super in his collection.

Again, thanks for relaying the story. Glad to have you on board here on the forums. Welcome!

[bruce bailey]

Also the low C key guard is very similar to the Centennial. I think what really sets these off is the flute style keys and the deco engraving on the bell. On the silver ones, it was engraved after plating and the markings look gold (due to the brass). Since I am selling off all my altos except the Martins and Conns, I will be listing my Super for sale soon.

[warp x]

I'd be curious to know the name of this Dutch company that's supposed to have the tooling.