Kessler Custom and Grand

[SaxNoir]

:D I posted this on the 'Misc. Saxophone Makes and Models', but its not getting much airplay there, so here it is again.

I am not in the market right now, but it seems no one would highly regard a Tenor sax sold for less than $500 (the Grand Super Tenor Sax that is being sold on Ebay). However, I have seen some positive feedback on threads discussing the Kessler Custom Tenor Saxophone sold for just under $900. I admittedly don't know Mr. Kessler, but he seems to be highly regarded by most and I've no reason to doubt he is selling a fine product. HOWEVER, does anyone want to tell me the Grand Super Tenor and the Kessler Custom Tenor is not the same exact horn?

I believe the Kessler horn has some elaborate engraving whereas the Grand Super Tenor does not appear to have any. Could that account for the price difference?

[PaulNYC]

If I am not mistaken, there is a forum for Kessler made saxes. They might discuss it there.

[SaxNoir]

Isn't this forum entitled: "Kessler Saxophones"? No?:?

[PaulNYC]

I take it all back :) i got confused with the miscellaneous makes sentence.

Comparison of saxes is usually in the Sax vs. Sax forum, although few will admit to owning a budget ebay horn. good luck with whatever you purchase.

[Bar-Ron]

:D I posted this on the 'Misc. Saxophone Makes and Models', but its not getting much airplay there, so here it is again.

I am not in the market right now, but it seems no one would highly regard a Tenor sax sold for less than $500 (the Grand Super Tenor Sax that is being sold on Ebay). However, I have seen some positive feedback on threads discussing the Kessler Custom Tenor Saxophone sold for just under $900. I admittedly don't know Mr. Kessler, but he seems to be highly regarded by most and I've no reason to doubt he is selling a fine product. HOWEVER, does anyone want to tell me the Grand Super Tenor and the Kessler Custom Tenor is not the same exact horn?

I believe the Kessler horn has some elaborate engraving whereas the Grand Super Tenor does not appear to have any. Could that account for the price difference?

What the heck kind of question is that?

[SaxNoir]

Do you know the answer? If not, go diss someone else on another thread!

I'm just comparing by window-shopping only. I don't have the luxury of just popping into a well-stocked music store where I am, and playing five or six different brands of horns, and couldn't afford most horns a music store would stock anyway. So without playing, I'm studying pictures of horns as well as horn player's comments about various equipment. And I've asked a legitimate question. What's the difference between the Kessler Custom Tenor and the Grand Super Tenor? They look like the same horn.

Whew! I feel as though I'm talking about compact cars in amongst a bunch of Hummer owners! :shock: A little common courtesy here!

[Mark5047]

SaxNoir

Asian made saxes are like a box of chocolates - ya never know what you are going to get. Just because they look the same means nothing. Engraving would not justify the difference in price. What you want to look for (as with any major purchase) is the quality of workmanship, the quality of materials and the quality of the person standing behind the product. If you are not in a position to play any of the above named instruments to determine for yourself what the quality is like, then you are forced to trust the person you are dealing with. Mr Kessler has an outstanding reputation - honestly I would look no further than him if / when you are ready to make your purchase. Until then look at all the pretty pictures you like, but in the end how an instrument plays is more beneficial than how it looks.

[Carl H.]

Most tenors are pretty much the same, it is the differences which separate the good from the bad. SML is highly regarded in the sax world, but somebody bought all their tooling when they stopped making saxes and proceeded to make saxes which are near the bottom of the barrel in terms of almost everything. They look the same but do not compare at all.

The attitude doesn't help make poeple want to help you either. This is a friendly group if you are sincere, but attitude will get you nowhere.

Good luck.

[Dave Dolson]

Easy, SaxNoir. Your question WAS a bit confusing.

The Kessler Custom is made in Taiwan for Dave Kessler's business. That seems to be a common practice among many retailers. I've dealt with Dave Kessler several times and he is a straight shooter. When he puts his name on an imported saxophone, he makes sure the horn is made well enough to justify the price (and more).

As far as the other brand, for $500.00 (or whatever), I'm guessing it may come from Mainland China. Most eBay cheapies with a non-identifying brand name are just that - cheap.

Of course, I could be wrong . . . it could come from one of the many factories in Taiwan, but not made to the more demanding and higher-quality specifications as Kessler's imports.

Photos alone cannot tell you much. Even the cheapest and most poorly-made Chinese saxophones look nice in photos - and may even appear to have the same ergonomics as a Selmer, Yanagisawa, Yamaha, or Kessler Custom. It ain't the engraving that separates those horns.

I bought one of Kessler's Custom tenors a year ago. It played better than new Yamaha Z and new Cannonball tenors I'd tried before buying the Kessler horn. At $900.oo, it was a downright steal. DAVE

[SaxNoir]

The attitude was directed toward Bar-Ron, who had nothing constructive to say....just a snide comment which I didn't appreciate. I certainly did not intend to direct my comments toward everyone on this forum, however, the only feedback I've received on this question is someone asking me if I'm on the right forum and someone criticizing my question. When I made my comment, I was a bit fed up at that point. (and the thing about which planet I'm on . . . . wasn't in keeping with the spirit of this forum either.)

The fact is, I'm not some punk beginner who knows nothing about horns. I've owned some very fine horns in the past and have played professionally long long ago. My life took a turn 25 years ago, and I haven't played for many years until just a few months ago. I am suprised at how the market on horns has gone and especially suprised at how sax players value them today.

I'm still making up my mind on many things about the state of the saxophone art these days, but I don't yet buy some of the popular opinions expressed on this forum. I may change my mind, I may not.

So far I've still not received anything solid on the GRAND horns comparison.

[jmartin]

IMO, if you plan to spend a lot of money on an expensive horn, you expect a certain amount of quality and reliability built into the instrument. That being the case, where you purchase the horn becomes less important. But on the other hand, if you plan to purchase an inexpensive horn, one that by design is probably not as well constructed, I think the place of purchase becomes much more important. Buying from someone that will support you after the sale and stand behind their product has a value in itself. Is that value $300? I don't know, that's for you to decide. But who are you going to call when the ebay horn is not what you thought it was?

[gary]

SaxNoir - have you done a "search" for Kessler Grand? If so, I'm sure you noticed that there was only one thread and that thread had only two replies, the second of which was yours. You began your reply on that thread with:I'm resurrecting this thread because I found it curious that the question that was asked appears to have been blown off with virtually no feedback.
I don't believe anyone is "blowing off" answering. My guess is that the lack of responses is simply because 1) most forum members would not take a chance on such an inexpensive horn and probably none of the members of this forum own one, and 2) your opening statement isn't exactly a friendly invitation to respond.

Although it doesn't stop some forum members 8-) most are not going to comment on an instrument they've never owned or played.

BTW I think JMartin's advice "...if you plan to purchase an inexpensive horn, one that by design is probably not as well constructed, I think the place of purchase becomes much more important" is pretty sound.

[SaxNoir]

A thousand pardons for anyone who was offended at any of my comments. I am dust at your feet. Let me start anew:

In my original post, I stated that I was NOT in the market for a horn. I'm not contemplating a purchase in the near future. And, unless I learn more, would probably NOT buy the Grand Tenor anyway.

Here are the things I am struggling with:

When someone says that the Kessler Custom Horn is made to more exacting standards than the same horn made in the same factory, I need to know why and how, so that I can believe it. Otherwise it's just dogma. EXAMPLE: I looked at a uniquely designed sax stand that seemed to be quite expensive, but which to me looked like it was a no-brainer to have engineered and built. When I inquired as to why it was so expensive, the merchant said that it was made from the finest materials and was 'guaranteed not to scratch your saxophone'. That doesn't cut it for me. Tell me about the materials used, the differences in manufacturing, the number of coats, the pads used, what was different in the way the one horn was made over the other.

Especially with regard to Saxophones, I'm not yet convinced that a more expensive horn is the better horn. I still think (from what I've read so far) that status and ego are heavily involved here with regard to price paid. Even the gentleman from New York mentioned in his post that no one would want to admit owning a bargain horn from Ebay. It's attitude.

The point is well taken, that Mr. Kessler would be one who would stand behind his product and that counts for much in considering a purchase.

But, as I've said, I'm not considering a purchase, currently, so if no one is really familiar with the Grand and how it compares with the Kessler custom, OK. That's all I really needed to know.

[Dave Dolson]

SaxNoir: Did anyone claim the Kessler Custom and the Grand was made in the same factory? (and that is an honest question - I'm not trying to be accusatory). I suppose that could be, but my guess would be different factories.

Even if so, it isn't difficult for me to believe that the same factory may put more effort into one run of saxophones (say those made for Kessler or Antigua or Cannonball), including specially requested features, than another run made for some no-name brand designed for quick-'n'-easy distribution.

Of course it is all speculation, but knowing saxophones, dealers, and Dave Kessler, I feel pretty safe in offering such an opinion.

One reason why someone has yet to post anything definitive about the brand-name GRAND could be just as Gary posted - no one here has one or has SEEN one. That is not hard to beleive either, given that there are a TON of off-brand-name saxophones being sold on eBay by high-volume retailers, discounters, and garage-based eBay operations.

I for one would not buy such a horn, but I have purchased some Taiwanese saxophones in the past (two from Kessler that were nice instruments), some good, some awful. Given Kessler's reputation and past dealings with him, I'd have no problem buying another Taiwanese saxophone from him rather than buy cheap from some eBay-based seller of Chinese junk.

Lastly, the majority of posters here on SOTW are mature, adult, experienced players who enjoy sharing opinions and helping the less experienced settle their saxophone problems. I think you are being a bit tough on the group as a whole. Like I said before, take it easy and be friendly. DAVE

[Grumps]

There are some intriguing similarities (neck/socket, pants guard, case), but not being an expert on budget horns, I don't know if they all look the same or not. But to those interested, check out the pics for yourself:

http://www.kesslermusic.com/KesslerCustomSax/TenorLQ.html

http://cgi.ebay.com/Grand-Super-Tenor-Saxophone-NEW-Pro-Style-Sax_W0QQitemZ7407224917QQcategoryZ16234QQssPageNam eZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

And of course it's a legitimate topic for discussion. Just as the numerous threads of the Allora/Chicago Jazz being a cheaper alternative to B&S are. Something tells me though that the original poster might have more information to go on than simple pictures. Might he share that?

[supra97rx7]

And of course it's a legitimate topic for discussion. Just as the numerous threads of the Allora/Chicago Jazz being a cheaper alternative to B&S are. Something tells me though that the original poster might have more information to go on than simple pictures. Might he share that?

but the alloras and CJS are literally the same as the B&S.

[Russ]

but the alloras and CJS are literally the same as the B&S.

but the alloras and CJS ***ARE*** the same as the B&S

[supra97rx7]

but the alloras and CJS ***ARE*** the same as the B&S

i know.. that's what i was saying :?

[Russ]

i know.. that's what i was saying :?

Then say it then ! :D :D

[Mark5047]

So who are the big factories in Taiwan making these 'no-name' brand instruments? I had heard at one time that there were only about 4 or 5 main companies making all of these instruments. Is it possible that Jupiter / Antigua / LA Sax, Unison, Cannonball etc all come from the same place?
I know this has been discussed ad-nausea in this forum in the past and the general idea is we will really never know. I am sure Dave Kessler doesnt even know all the horns that are made at the same place his are made at - which again validates the point - unless you are feeling VERY lucky you are best off buying from a reputation rather than just a no-name.

[danarsenault]

You would be surprised who makes saxes, and where. There is far less 'complete' sax manufacting in Taiwan than you might imagine, if you define complete as one company doing all the body and key work the way Selmer does (for the intruments they make themselves). There are lots of subcontractors in this world.

There are also a number of products that fit in alarmingly good places on the value curve from the PRC, India, Mexico, Brazil, etc. It would not surprise me that a lot of instruments 'made' in Taiwain are merely assembled there, or even less.

Not that any of this is either good or bad. A good instrument is a good instrument no matter where it comes from. I've been doing some business with partners in Taiwan lately, myself. I'll have some very interesting announcements to make in a month or two.

[JMac]

OK- according to Saxhome (http://www.saxhome.com.tw/default.aspx?module=1&Lan=en/)- there are about 25 manufacturers in Taiwan with 15 or so in the Houli region -with 'upstream and downstream cooperation among factories'. Total employment in the country is estimated at 1,500 wokers.

This 2 year old government economic article (http://publish.gio.gov.tw/FCJ/past/04061881.html)provides some historic insight to Houli operations.

This Taiwan Panorama (http://www.sinorama.com.tw/en/show_issue.php3?id=200569406078e.txt&page=1)article provides even more detail.

According to these 2 sources above - there are 12 manufacturers in Houli with 10 or fewer employees each.

And finally, this Taipei Times (http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/feat/archives/2003/07/06/2003058322/print)article has further insight on the Houli region, including their disdain for horns from mainland China. Has a couple of good pics of apprentices at work, too. Locals claim there are about 20 family run factories...

NOW GET THIS- even though they know that one of Clintons' horns was made in their town - even they cannot tell who the manufacturer was by looking at it!!!!

I found each of the articles very interesting....

Wonder where my 2 Antiguas came from ?

[Canadiain]

Well, I'll stick my neck out.

Im on a tight budget, but want to dip my toe into tenor waters. I am waiting to recieve a nickle finish Grand tenor that I recently bought unseen from a fellow saxontheweber who is moving on to better things after a couple of trouble free years playing this "grand"

Wish me luck:) Im not expecting great things, but for $200 I frankly dont have a lot to lose.

In some respects Im in the same situation as the OP, not a lot of choice around here to try, so for $200 IMO its better than renting a student beater, and it appears by all acounts to be "based on" an SA80, so the design is proven. Build quality? All I have to go on is another SOTWer statement that its OK. Watch this space.

I could maybe have found a beat up low level vintage horn, or got lucky at a yard sale for the money (although I doubt it) but my experience with another selmer "copy", my Antigua alto has me hooked on the virtues of better ergonomics, and in my experience a decent mpc is a better bang for the buck when it comes to tone, up to a certain midlevel price point anyway, although that is with the provision that the horn is in good shape and stays in adjustment for a while (thats my main concern about this chinese horn, that it will not stay playable, although the previous owner claims a couple of trouble free years). When and if the instrument becomes a limitation then it will be time to move up market, but I cant justify that at this embrionic stage of my tenor playing.

If I was an ex pro would I have bought the grand? No, I doubt it. I would try and save enough for a trip somewhere I could try several different horns. Right now I dont know enough to know what I want, but you have to start somewhere. In my situation it makes at least as much sense to risk losing $200 on a chinese horn thats a dead loss, than all those idiots potentially overpaying for a MkVI on ebay that they havent seen in the flesh. I suppose that like all gambling, if you cant afford to lose it, you shouldnt be doing it anyway:)

FWIW they are made in China for sure, not Tiawan, and are catagorically not the same as the Kessler horns. I expect that given his reputation that the Tiawan sourced Kessler is probably a better and more consistant bet, plus it will leave his shop well regulated and set up, but surely (I hope!) the chinese must make the occasional reasonable faximille of a playable horn.

FWIW the "Grand" Website is here:
http://www.grandintl.com/

Finger crossed eh!

[HUTMO]

please ignore... the point I made was made on an earlier posting so I deleted my comment.

HUTMO

[JMac]

Well - Canadiain, let us know how it turns out - here's hoping it is all that and more.

Sidenote- whenever I see your location on a post, it reminds me of a fascinating night spent in the (formerly grand) Hotel Quinte in Belleville, Ont. after a long night of drinking and watching the "Canadian Ballet" :D .

Ya know it's a class joint when the management doesn't bother plugging the hole in the door where the lock used to reside or, for that matter, replacing the bathroom glass the previous tenant used as an ashtray....:tongue6:

[gary]

..whenever I see your location on a post, it reminds me of a fascinating night spent in the (formerly grand) Hotel Quinte in Belleville, Ont. after a long night of drinking and watching the "Canadian Ballet" :D .

Ya know it's a class joint when the management doesn't bother plugging the hole in the door where the lock used to reside or, for that matter, replacing the bathroom glass the previous tenant used as an ashtray....:tongue6:

Yeah, JMac, but at least you were only paying by the hour like the rest of the clients. :D

[Canadiain]

Well - Canadiain, let us know how it turns out - here's hoping it is all that and more.

Sidenote- whenever I see your location on a post, it reminds me of a fascinating night spent in the (formerly grand) Hotel Quinte in Belleville, Ont. after a long night of drinking and watching the "Canadian Ballet" :D .

Ya know it's a class joint when the management doesn't bother plugging the hole in the door where the lock used to reside or, for that matter, replacing the bathroom glass the previous tenant used as an ashtray....:tongue6:
Will do, it arrived today, mostly in one (well two) piece and needs a good clean and the octave mechanism straightening out (Its not the best fitting case). By the time thats done hopefully my S80 mpc will be here.

The hotel quinte! now the clarion inn, how the memories flow. I had the dubious pleasure of staying there for my first few weeks in Canada. I think its a bit better now than when you stayed....thats Belleville though, not too much need for locks on the doors around here anyway:)

Strangely when they were recruiting me they put me up in the (much nicer) ramada overlooking the bay, but once I signed up it was the Clarion inn:( Thats life eh!

[rleitch]

hey Canadiain,

When we talked last you didn't mention you too had GAS! I hope your gamble pays off for you! One question: did you look into the possibility of getting an Antigua tenor from the bjmusic-kmc folks? Just wondering.

Rory

ps. sorry for interrupting the low-brow Proustian reveries!

[DaveKessler]

Well this has been a rather interesting thread. I have purposely stayed away from it so that it can roam free. Its been fun to watch.

Yes, there is a lot of subcontracting in the Taiwanese/Asian sax market. There are some that have China/Taiwan relations as well (as weird as that politically seems). Surprisingly alot.

Are the Grands made in the same factory? I dont think so. There are similarities as pointed out. This doesnt suprise me at all. The cases for my horns are not made in the same factory that makes the horns... but thats the case with just about every company. Selmer buys cases from BAM, as does LeBlanc.

I have not had a Grand sax in my store... so I cannot atest to its origins. All I know is that we believe in our horns and we back them up.

[Canadiain]

hey Canadiain,

When we talked last you didn't mention you too had GAS! I hope your gamble pays off for you! One question: did you look into the possibility of getting an Antigua tenor from the bjmusic-kmc folks? Just wondering.

Rory

ps. sorry for interrupting the low-brow Proustian reveries!

Very limited GAS, seems worse than it really is as I just got my clarinet back after lending it to a friend for a looong time too. More like hiccups maybe!

Never pursued the Antigua distributor in Canada, Im not in the market for a new horn, only used. Having paid what I did for the Grand I'm a bit sick I missed an Antigua tenor that went on ebay for $162!

The Grand tenor is fine for what I want it for, an introduction to Tenor to see if it suits me. The low end is pretty stuffy, but thats probably the C** tip opening as much as any issues with the mechanics (no stuffyness with the bell keys when played with with the octave key). Had a less severe case on alto that cleared up with a larger tip opening/softer reed. Top end is fine, easy to get into altissimo.

Some of the build quality is a bit ropey, rods just a hair too short for the posts they are fitted to, and screws that wont take up the adjustment, that sort of thing, but the intonation is surprisingly good, the ergonomics are fine and the tone is the most surprising thing, not nearly as harsh as you would think a horn that cheap should be. Springs could be better too, but at that price point you expect that. The case could be a better fit, there was some minor damage in shipping that I would put down to it not being the snuggest of fits. No complaints though, bearing what I paid in mind, it works fine at the moment and sounds better than I expected frankly. In 5 years the chinese will be making consistently good intermediate horns, just as the Tiawanese seem to be now. Gonna be big trouble for the more upmarket brands.

Im thinking now that there is more than one "Grand" brand out there. The website lists only laquer for the horn, but ebay also reveals both sandblasted nickel and black on the market (Buy it now for $260, new!!!), and those have some engraving. For me the cost of a new horn, even one of Mr Kesslers fine budget models would escalate wildly, what with the cost of the divorce it would precipitate and all:)

Once I've been playing tenor for a while I might be able to convince my better half to turn a blind eye to a more upmarket tenor, but as I dont spend enough time with my current stable to reap the benefits I cant see that happening any time soon (2 small kids take up all my time now). Maybe another vacation in Vegas should be on the horizon...we were married there. If I get lucky on the slots then I'll pop over to the Kesslers shop:twisted: And it will be easy to do the divorce if necessary, as we will be in Nevada anyway:D;)

[Gandalfe]

Never pursued the Antigua distributor in Canada, Im not in the market for a new horn, only used. Having paid what I did for the Grand I'm a bit sick I missed an Antigua tenor that went on ebay for $162!
You may have gotten lucky depending on how old that Antiqua was. Some of the original models were not playable. The company has come a long way.

[Canadiain]

You may have gotten lucky depending on how old that Antiqua was. Some of the original models were not playable. The company has come a long way.
Its a recent thing, someone was asking about availability in Canada and I happened to stumble across a news article naming the new distributor up here. The ebay tenor was an older 550LQ based on the case style and appearance of the horn, hard to say how old it was. The listing (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7409047278&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1) is still active today.

How far back are you talking Gandalfe?

I know some of the sopranos were a bit ropey before the Yani copies started to flow. My alto is from the 90s sometime as far as I can tell (Serial number A312xxxx if Dave Kessler can shed any light?), and its got no issues, in fact I've never heard anything negative about the Altos at the price come to think of it.

You generally dont here anything much about the Tenors, and lots of recent raving about the Sops.

[gworthey]

.....I've never heard anything negative about the Altos at the price come to think of it. You generally dont here anything much about the Tenors.....

I've actually heard that the Tenors are great players, but the Altos don't measure up quite as well (intonation, design, etc. - based on Series II?).

Disclaimer: I've never played the Alto or Tenor Antigua. Heard this from a very reputable dealer. I do play an Antigua Sop and love it!

[ALVEGASAX]

HEY SAXNOIR ;
YOUR AVATAR PIC IS SCARING THE CHILDREN IN THIS THREAD.

KEEP COOL
ALVEGASAX8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)

[ALVEGASAX]

GGGGGGGGGGG