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DeanoTheSaxman
04-16-2006, 05:24 PM
Can anybody post a pic of the baffle on a Michael Brecker II Guardala, is it anything like the studio baffle?

Markus Baldingen
04-16-2006, 07:02 PM
This one's from eBay item #7404936051:

http://www.baldingen.de/ebay/guardala_mbii_baffle.JPG

Seller is from Germany but listed it not on ebay.de but ebay.com. Auction ended tonight without any bids... small wonder, for he was asking the ridiculous amount of 1350 US$ for it.

HTH,
Markus

DeanoTheSaxman
04-16-2006, 07:07 PM
Many thanks, it's not much different from the Studio judging by the pic?

Markus Baldingen
04-16-2006, 07:42 PM
Here's a pic from a current auction for a "Lazer Trimmed" Studio (#7407205369):

http://www.baldingen.de/ebay/guardala_lazer_studio_baffle.JPG
the baffle really looks very similar.
Starting bid is about 470 US$. WWBW has them in stock for 349 $... :scratch:
Another one relying on all that Guardala hype.

OTOH, if I hadn't just decided to order a V16 T77, I would seriously consider getting an "old" Lazer Trimmed Studio from WWBW.

Mike Duchstein from Berlin has a handful of various handmades for sale, see this:
http://www.saxophon-service.de/homep/guardala.html

Markus

p.s.
The few pictures I've seen from the new PMS-Guardalas look so bad... I would not consider to even try one of these (but that's just my 0,02 €).

gary
04-16-2006, 08:09 PM
Boy, those are some nasty prices. Naive question - couldn't an excellent refacer simply copy just about any of the designer mpcs? I mean, measurement's measurement and craftsmanship's craftsmanship, or?

saxymanzach
04-16-2006, 08:37 PM
Yeah, that would probably be a lot cheaper.

MojoBari
04-16-2006, 08:57 PM
They have similar baffles. But the Studio has a small throat and the MB II has a large throat.

wersax
04-17-2006, 12:45 AM
Here's another one: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=16234&item=7382820043 The MB II baffles are not as long as the Studio baffles, in general. I've played quite a few Studios and MB II's and I just can't get comfortable with the Studios; I can't get enough air in it. The scooped out chamber is quite a bit bigger in the MB's and MB II's than in the Studios along with a shorter baffle. The MB II I've got (thanks Dolnet!), has quite a bit less baffle than the one in the link posted by Marcus. In fact that one looks like a Studio not a MB II to me. But I think the baffle varies from piece to piece and tends to be higher and longer in the later production MB II's as well as with the MB's......

DeanoTheSaxman
04-17-2006, 08:45 AM
Hi Guy's,

Gary yes it is quite easy to copy these designs with CNC machinery today, I was offered a job recently doing just that, but I declined. Too many copy right laws to close you down!

I'm really surprised that the chineese haven't ripped the design off, or even used some of the new mouthpieces and converted them to look like the old ones & put them on E-bay for the money!

The process of manufacture of this sort of thing really is very easy to any production engineer with CNC and CAD/CAM experience, I did 10 years of aerospace production and worked for Pratt & Whitney in Ireland machining some of the hardest materials known to man, the real expense of doing this accuracy of machining is the tooling and machinery, when you have CNC machinery and carbide tooling the process really is quite quick.

What puts the fly in the ointment is the hand finishing, Obviously if there's a lot of hand finishing the process can be a lot longer, thats why it's in your best advantage to get all the process machined with minimal hand finishing, which in my view can easily be attained with CNC and CAD/CAM if the tooling is thought out right and the machining is production orientated.

Yes (WWBW & Music123) have these in stock along with a German supplier, all these prices are a lot cheaper than here in the UK, unfortunately the prices even for the "Laser" one's are through the roof, £369 at www.bill-lewington.com/guardala/dgmps.htm and £329/349 at www.saxophones.co.uk are looking for 17.5% on top of the normal prices that music123/WWBW are charging.... Absolutely crazy even at German prices we are looking at £300 for the new MBII which when you think about it is about 1/2 the price of a good genuine mouthpiece. Be the great lovely mouthpieces they are, they still command a big price ticket. Believe me you guy's in USA have it made with Guardala prices!

One thing has always confused me, I'm an engineer by trade and am well familiar with CNC and CAD CAM where does the "Laser" come in to the production of these mouthpieces, as far as I know the design of these mouthpieces, dimensions were attained by CMM (Co-ordinate Measuring Machine) and not "laser", CNC is not "Laser" so where does "Laser" fit in to the equation ??????

Laser, and laser cutting is not CNC or even CAD/CAM so where does the "Laser" process come in to it or is it just one of those descriptive titles to capture our imaginations that these mouthpieces are as accurate as it gets ?

dirty
04-18-2006, 03:25 AM
"Laser" just makes it seem more space-age and precise. Most people will never know the difference. If you hadn't explained a little about the actual process, I might have gone right on believing that lasers were a part of it.

MojoBari
04-18-2006, 04:43 PM
There are Laser cutting machines, but they are more for thin materials. There is a shot that the side rails of the facing curve are actually Laser cut, but I doubt it.

DeanoTheSaxman
04-18-2006, 08:32 PM
Appreciate that there are laser cutting machines, but like you say, mainly used for thin materials, there is also laser cutting for cutting shapes in to blanks of materials, ever seen the after effect? not pretty, even EDM or wire erosion would work, but the finishes would still have to be done by hand. With CAD/CAM and CNC it is quite feasible to get the finishes required. Mastercam is one of the pioneering software’s used for true 3D CNC programme code, I can't figure for the life of me where "Laser" comes in to it, unless it's some kind of "Laser" calibration.

thehighend
04-19-2006, 02:39 AM
I read that the side rails are especially thin on the LT's because they are laser cut (trimmed), whatever that means.

EgilF.
05-14-2006, 05:29 PM
This is my LT MBII from PSM in Germany.

http://home.broadpark.no/~egfurre/LT%20Guradala%20MBII.JPG

MojoBari
05-17-2006, 04:33 PM
On my site there is a link to my collection of Guardala mouthpiece photos. You can compare the vintage MBII pics to this new incarnation from PSM. None of the old MBIIs have a round nose baffle/chamber.

Markus Baldingen
05-17-2006, 05:46 PM
This is a current eBay auction for a MBII: Item #260000223620 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260000223620).

This one looks very much like the MB II my buddy is playing... he bought it from Dave himself. Wersax is right about the baffle length.

But... do you see what I see?

There seems to be a nick in the tip, slightly left from the center. Look at the 3rd picture and compare with the 2nd:

http://i21.ebayimg.com/02/i/07/1a/cb/20_1_b.JPG

http://i14.ebayimg.com/01/i/07/1b/a1/5b_1_b.JPG

http://i5.ebayimg.com/02/i/07/26/bf/5d_1_b.JPG

http://i6.ebayimg.com/01/i/07/1e/39/ab_1_b.JPG

wersax
05-17-2006, 08:38 PM
I see a small nick there, Markus; I doubt that it would effect the playing, 'though it may hurt the auction value. I've got a fairy big nick in one of my pieces and it plays fine......

whaler
05-18-2006, 01:15 AM
Look at the baffle on that "Guardala" from PM. It must sound like nails on a blackboard!!

EgilF.
05-18-2006, 06:27 PM
What do You thing about this one? What is it???

http://home.broadpark.no/~egfurre/MBIIHandmade%20by%20NIDSC07278a.jpg

tenorsaxman11
05-18-2006, 06:57 PM
What is it???

It's a work of art. It's freakin beautiful!

8-)

EgilF.
05-18-2006, 07:10 PM
Take a closer look, it´s brand new. Made i 2006.

http://home.broadpark.no/~egfurre/MBIIHandemade.JPG

whaler
05-19-2006, 12:11 AM
Is that the WWBW "Guardala" or the PM? I can't read the part after "made by".

wersax
05-19-2006, 03:38 AM
That's a Studio, right?........

Mike F
05-19-2006, 06:55 AM
Daryl,

I don't want to muddy the waters any more, but in addition to the information I posted in the other thread about Guardalas, Jim Cheek of Saxophones.co.uk also told me that some of the PMS pieces were being hand finished!
He didn't know the name of the person doing the work, but said that Dave Guardala had instructed/trained this person to hand finish some of the mouthpieces. He (Jim Cheek) said that some of the PMS pieces would be machined only, and some of them would be hand finished.
I didn't post this info before because I was a bit sceptical (although I believed Jim Cheek that PMS had told him this) and I couldn't find any mention of this on their websites.
However, the piece in the picture certainly looks as though it was hand finished to an extent - the table has been finished by hand at least.
I agree with you that it looks like a Studio though, and as far as I was aware, PMS are not producing a Studio model. I'm confused!!!

Mike F
05-19-2006, 08:32 AM
Just cheaked the PMS site. They're now offering DG mp's with different tip openings (in a departure from one of DG's original design ideas of one tip opening for each piece that matched the baffle, chamber, throat of that particular model).
The work is presumably done by the same person who is doing the hand finishing.

EgilF.
05-19-2006, 08:59 AM
Nadir Ibrahimoglu at PMS has made this new handmade MBII. It´s a copy of the original hand made MBII. I got the picture from him. It´s also he that makes the new LT MBII with the ”bullet” camber. The two MBII fram PMS sounds almost like the same, he says.
The German musicmagasine Sonic has just testet the new MBII´s.

whaler
05-19-2006, 11:50 AM
So, WWBW has the rights to make these in North America and PMS (I can see by their name why they might not go over too well here) in Europe? As stated, copies.

wersax
05-19-2006, 12:33 PM
Nadir Ibrahimoglu at PMS has made this new handmade MBII. It´s a copy of the original hand made MBII. I got the picture from him. It´s also he that makes the new LT MBII with the ”bullet” camber. The two MBII fram PMS sounds almost like the same, he says.
The German musicmagasine Sonic has just testet the new MBII´s.
So I wonder if you can get a MB II with the 8* opening and the regular (not bullet-shaped) baffle...........

wersax
05-19-2006, 12:36 PM
Anybody got an English translation for the Sonic review?..........

MojoBari
05-19-2006, 12:42 PM
Nice photo except I can not tell if the sides are scooped out much after the baffle starts falling off. Also, is the throat area larger, smaller or the same diameter as the shank bore?

Mike F
05-19-2006, 02:38 PM
So, WWBW has the rights to make these in North America and PMS (I can see by their name why they might not go over too well here) in Europe? As stated, copies.

- or not copies, in the case of PMS!

Mike F
05-19-2006, 03:00 PM
Nadir Ibrahimoglu at PMS has made this new handmade MBII. It´s a copy of the original hand made MBII. I got the picture from him. It´s also he that makes the new LT MBII with the ”bullet” camber. The two MBII fram PMS sounds almost like the same, he says.
The German musicmagasine Sonic has just testet the new MBII´s.

EgilF. That's a very nice looking mouthpiece and I hope that it plays well for you.
However, without wanting to sound negative, I'd like to make two points.
Firstly, the piece is hand finished - you can still see some CNC machine milling marks on the baffle.
Secondly, it still doesn't look like a hand made MBII which had more of a curve from the baffle to the chamber, not a distinct step like this one.

It doesn't matter if it's not an exact copy if it plays well, and I have nothing against PMS or the guy who's making these (who is obviously a very fine craftsman), but I think that buyers should be aware that these pieces are NOT exact copies of the original hand made DG's.

BARIDOGG
05-19-2006, 09:01 PM
That's a MBII Alright! The throat area seems to be a lot larger than my LT Studio. The studio's throat is rounded whereas this MBII has a more flat baffle and drop off area. This new one almost looks identical to the the first MBII pic in the beginning this thread.

wersax
05-20-2006, 05:46 PM
Both of those pictures look like Studios to me; the MB I and MB II's have a bigger chamber, as in this pic of a MB II:

BARIDOGG
05-21-2006, 06:08 AM
Both of those pictures look like Studios to me; the MB I and MB II's have a bigger chamber, as in this pic of a MB II:

Wersax, I see what you mean. But, by looking at pictures, the chamber of the new 2006 MBII seems a bit larger than my LT Studio.

EgilF, when will both versions be available here in the states?

EgilF.
05-21-2006, 10:04 AM
BARIDOGG wrote: ....when will both versions be available here in the states?
You can email them an ask. I ordered mine direct from PMS. - Where I live up in the middle of Norway I think we never vil see a Guardala (old og new) in a music shop -

The last I heard from PMS was that they had sold out their MB II´s. But in the german Sonic magasin you can read that they sells "handmade" version for 590 Euro. (Email me for a germany copy).

Closed
06-02-2006, 09:32 PM
Hi there!

Well, I've bought one of the new MBII. It's a great mouthpiece. It's a bit like a Dukoff D, but then cleaner (and the intonation is much easier). The sound also looks a bit like the Studio, but then less compact, it's bigger and warmer.
Although it's a great mpc, I don't play it. 10 years ago, when I was completely into Brecker, I would have, but I just don't go for that sound anymore (I like that mellow Link-sound). I bought it out of curiousity (to see if I could get that Brecker sound, and I could). If it sounds or plays better/worse/the same as the old handmade MBII, I don't know, haven't compared them
For anyone who's interested, I have it up for sale on eBay at the moment:

http://cgi.ebay.com/GUARDALA-MBII-Tenor-Mouthpiece_W0QQitemZ7418905980QQihZ016QQcategoryZ23298QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

You can also PM me if you're interested.

Greetz, Emiel

Hurling Frootmig
06-03-2006, 02:15 AM
I'm not sure about the copyright of a mouthpiece. I'd have to see a patent that refers specifically to the design of the baffle, throat, and chamber. Given that they used a Dukoff D as a starting off point and that Bobby never sued them I'm guessing that the high baffle design used is fair game for others. Look at the RIA pieces and compare them to Berg's. They look like decent copies and play about the same.

Actually if we are talking about patents on Baffles then I guess everyone owes Arnold Brilhart some royalties. Santy Runyon has some interesting patents as well that go beyond what Arnold did.

Interesting stuff.

wersax
06-03-2006, 04:36 AM
The new LT Brecker II appears to be so in name only. No way with a chamber that small, considering how big the MB I/II chambers are, it can pass for a "real" MB II.......it may be a cool mouthpiece in it's own way, but naming this piece the MB II, IMHO, is a really calculated and somewhat clumsy way to cash in on the Guardala resell craze you can witness everyday on eBay.......

whaler
06-03-2006, 01:32 PM
450 bucks for a highly suspect copy!! You have to be kidding. P.T. Barnum lives!!

Closed
06-03-2006, 02:46 PM
Why do you have to be so rude and start calling names???? Very sad.........

wersax
06-04-2006, 11:25 AM
Why do you have to be so rude and start calling names???? Very sad.........
What? Who's calling names? :?

gary
06-04-2006, 11:53 AM
What? Who's calling names? :?
Wersax - I think this is what he means:
450 bucks for a highly suspect copy!! You have to be kidding. P.T. Barnum lives!!
When we US-English speakers hear "calling names", we think of a personal slur. I think (agree or not) what whaler means is why disparage the mpc if one hasn't played it and imply that those who do purchase the mpc are suckers. I guess he's saying, to play with similar words, "Why not give the mpc an even break." ;)

Closed
06-04-2006, 03:05 PM
It is a personal slur. He's implying that I'm trying to sell a bad copy for way too much money.
Well, first of all, it isn't a copy. The model is completely different from the HM MBII's. It's a different mouthpiece, that can also produce that Brecker sound (just like a Studio, Dukoff D, Ponzol + a lot of hard work can).
Second, I'm not a salesperson, just a saxplayer who bought the piece, for exactly the same amount as I'm selling it for. So I'm not even trying to make a provit.
So it's quite hurtful when someone, who doesn't know you at all, calls you a cheat. I thought we were more decent here.

wersax
06-04-2006, 11:41 PM
It is a personal slur. He's implying that I'm trying to sell a bad copy for way too much money.
Well, first of all, it isn't a copy. The model is completely different from the HM MBII's. It's a different mouthpiece, that can also produce that Brecker sound (just like a Studio, Dukoff D, Ponzol + a lot of hard work can).
Second, I'm not a salesperson, just a saxplayer who bought the piece, for exactly the same amount as I'm selling it for. So I'm not even trying to make a provit.
So it's quite hurtful when someone, who doesn't know you at all, calls you a cheat. I thought we were more decent here.
I'm not sure if that's what Whaler meant or not, but I am sure you've got every right to sell the LT MB II for whatever price you want to, Emiel. It doesn't look like something that I would want to buy right now, but someone will like that mouthpiece and they are hard to come by (can't be purchased in the US).......best of luck with your auction............daryl.............:)

EgilF.
06-05-2006, 10:19 PM
PMS-music has sould out all their MB II´s.

whaler
06-06-2006, 02:57 AM
I didn't call anybody a cheat or any other name. You can sell at whatever price you can get. If a maker of mouthpieces can slap a name on something and get people to buy it, I guess he can do that too. If you are the maker of the mouthpiece, then I guess it is a personal insult. Obviously, you were less than overwhelmed by the mouthpiece since it is on the block so quickly. It seems that all mouthpieces, be it Link, Meyer, or Guardala, gradually lose their quality as they get further from the hands of their original designers.

BARIDOGG
06-07-2006, 04:52 AM
PMS-music has sould out all their MB II´s.

Are they going to make anymore? And the big question is, are they coming to the U.S.?

EgilF.
06-08-2006, 09:24 PM
Originally Posted by BARIDOGG:
Are they going to make anymore? And the big question is, are they coming to the U.S.?

At PMS´s website it says that they have all modells in stock.

Closed
06-08-2006, 09:44 PM
It seems that all mouthpieces, be it Link, Meyer, or Guardala, gradually lose their quality as they get further from the hands of their original designers.

I talked with the guy who works at the "Saxofoonwinkel" in Deventer (Holland).
He told me that Dave Guardala contacted him a while ago to make a deal. Dave had a new CNC-machine and wanted to make new Guardala-pieces again, but he didn't have the cash for the material (the brass and silver). Apparently he lost all his money when he got caught for taxfraud. The IRS took all of his money.
Dave asked Paul (the guy at the saxstore) if he wanted to invest and give him the money for the material. In return the saxshop would be the exclusive place to sell the Guardala pieces. The saxstore told Dave they weren't interested (a ridiculous amount of money he needed), that's how Dave probably ended up with WWBW and PMS. So about losing quality as they get further from the hands of the original designer....according to this story, Dave is still making the mpc's himself (using a machine) and is using different saxstores to sell them.

MojoBari
06-09-2006, 12:41 PM
I can believe part of that report. I doubt that Dave is overseeing any day-to-day production. I think the original Laser Trimmed Guardalas in the US were out-sourced to a machine shop that had a more capable CNC machine than the Guardala team owned. They were entirely machine made with no hand finishing. I think Dave may have given exclusive rights to WW&BW, then also PMS, along with some samples and/or machine shops specs. Why buy your own machine? I think they are out-sourced still. Maybe Dave looked at a few of the pieces from the first run.

But my comments are speculation based on what I have heard and seen. No one seems to have first hand knowledge of what is going on.

whaler
06-09-2006, 01:34 PM
If he was making the mouthpieces or had a hand in it, you know that they would be using this as a selling point, and they don't seem to be. Just call me skeptical about this whole deal. It just seems to me like they bought Guardala's permission to use his name.

BARIDOGG
06-25-2006, 06:18 AM
Has anyone seen the inside of Brecker's mouthpiece? I bought the PMS-MBII from Emiel and it is simply the best Guardala I've ever played. It produces a sound to me that is closer to Brecker's than my D9 Dukoff and my Studio. Could it be possible that Michael Brecker's main mouthpiece have a bullet chamber like the Guardala King?

EgilF.
06-25-2006, 01:11 PM
Does anyone know anything about Michael Breckers health? Last news on his website is from May 18.

---------
BAGIDOGG wrote:

I bought the PMS-MBII from Emiel and it is simply the best Guardala I've ever played. Interesting to read this BARIDOGG, I´ve allways belived that the "other/older DG´s probably is better than mine".

Does anyone know where I can get one of this selmer alto metal lig? The Rowner that PMS send me is working, but on my old Dukoff I went back to the metal lig after trying Rowner for some weeks.

BARIDOGG
06-25-2006, 11:11 PM
Does anyone know anything about Michael Breckers health? Last news on his website is from May 18.

This is from the NY Times June 24 review of JVC Jazz Festival concert at Carnegie Hall.

(Excerpt)
"In a surprise, they were joined on Mr. Hancock’s “One Finger Snap” by the saxophonist Michael Brecker, who has been ill for the last year with MDS, or Myelodisplastic Syndrome, a bone marrow disease. It was the first time he had performed since his hospitalization. Mr. Brecker looked slightly tired, but otherwise gave it his all, playing long, tumultuous lines at full strength through the song."

The next article is also from June 24 - This comes from Jazz Corner, by Lois Gilbert (administrator) of Jazz Corner

(Excerpt)
"We heard mumblings outside of Carnegie Hall tonight that Michael had shown up for the sound check. And then Herbie with Ron Carter and Jack DeJohnette opened the evening. On the third tune, Herbie said something about the need on "One Finger Snap" to have a tenor along with them, so he invited a very special friend.... And there was Michael with his tenor, looking strong, and truly a vision. We stood up and applauded thunderously. Some of us lost all our makeup with tears of joy. He played strong and superbly. We soaked in every minute. We couldn't believe our eyes, let alone our ears."

There you have it!:D It looks like Micheal Brecker is almost back to his old self again!


Does anyone know where I can get one of this selmer alto metal lig?

You can get one from www.WWBW.com. Best ligature in the world!:D