Thinking of trading my Selmer Mark 7 against a PMXT 66

[mosplace]

I'm a realy thinking of trading my Mark 7 (s/n 255 xxx) beautiful horn against a Mauriat tenor PMXT 66. Do you think that is a reasonalble trade or is this a trade you would say no?

We don't have them over here in Germany yet, but I like the way the look and I like the way the sound.

Is anybody out there who would trade?

[Dave Dolson]

I'd say no, unless your MKVII is not doing the job for you. Regardless of the "talk", I think the MKVII is a nice instrument, allowing for the normal variances among all manufacturers. And, as good as the PMs may be, they are Taiwanese and probably not in the same league as a Selmer-Paris saxophone, regardless of model.

I own two Taiwanese-made saxophones and I like them. But I would not trade any of my Selmers or Bueschers for a Taiwanese-made saxophone. DAVE

[deiter1977]

Mosplace, I think your question should receive an answer that has become somewhat trite here on SOTW, but is true nevertheless. So here you go::director: Try it before you buy (or trade!) it. I've played only one Mark VII, and it was a decent horn; by no means was it exceptional. However, we all know that not every horn of the same model is made equal.

That being said, I just sold my Reference 54 to raise cash for a P Mauriat PMXT-66R.:shock: I picked the Ref 54 out of 6, and it blew the best for me. I owned the Ref 54 for just over a year, then had the chance to play it side-by-side against the 66R. For me, there was no contest; the 66R blew my Ref54 away!
I'd say no, unless your MKVII is not doing the job for you. Regardless of the "talk", I think the MKVII is a nice instrument, allowing for the normal variances among all manufacturers. And, as good as the PMs may be, they are Taiwanese and probably not in the same league as a Selmer-Paris saxophone, regardless of model.

I own two Taiwanese-made saxophones and I like them. But I would not trade any of my Selmers or Bueschers for a Taiwanese-made saxophone. DAVE
Dave's advice is not ill-advised. In fact, before trying the 66R, I would have heartily agreed. However, I would suggest that every horn preference and choice is personal. If there's any possible way to do it, :idea: play the P. Mauriat and your Mark VII side-by-side, and on this basis, choose the horn that plays the best for you. Good luck!

[mosplace]

Yeah, is's a kinda hard decision. My Mark VII is a realy nice horn. Great intonation, still in very good condition. The only thing I'm missing is a little more edge and darkness in its sound. Compated to my Shadow it sounds very soft.

Why do the PM's sometimes have an engraving and sometimes they don't. Why is that?

[Sigmund451]

In 5 years you can sell your VII for more. In 5 years I predict the PM will be the P WHO? Keep that in mind.

[mosplace]

I don't even know how much it would be worth. It is in very good condition. I loaded some pics up http://www.simplysax.de/Selmer.htm

No dents, only one or two very tiny dings. It was made in 1976 and it has an extremly good intonation. That freaks me every time I play it. But I'm missing this certain something in it's sound, that I have, when I play my Shadow. Guess I'm a hopeless Keilwerth player.

[rispoli]

Why do the PM's sometimes have an engraving and sometimes they don't. Why is that?

The only engraved custom class Mauriat is coming out now (named 76). Models 66 and 66R have no engraving (even though the P.Mauriat brochure shows them) just like the Ref.54 matte, not sure about the nickel silver.

[mosplace]

Hm, but in the catalogue pictures and the internet pictures they vintage tenor is always engraved. That is strange.

[deiter1977]

In 5 years you can sell your VII for more. In 5 years I predict the PM will be the P WHO? Keep that in mind.

Some years ago, people were saying the same about horns from Japan, i.e. Yamaha & Yanigasawa. :shock: Hmm....

[deiter1977]

The only engraved custom class Mauriat is coming out now (named 76). Models 66 and 66R have no engraving (even though the P.Mauriat brochure shows them) just like the Ref.54 matte, not sure about the nickel silver.
I ordered a 66R, and simply requested the engraving. It came that way, no extra charge. :D I don't know if the "no extra charge" was a function of the manufacturer or the dealer (Scimonetti's in Lancaster).

[Daktion]

from Dave @ junkdude... the engravings are a "premium" hehe so if they didnt charge you then you definately got a good deal

Also, I'm still suprised at all the people that are biased against Taiwanese horns. True their history may be less than stellar but I've always thought that if the horn played well then who cares where it was made. Mo, if you havent already... give the pm a test drive. Try the 66 the 66R and whatever else you can get your hands on. There is a norweigen dealer for PM that frequents these boards... maybe they can help you.

I personally dont care too much about the resale or where it was manufactured. The ref54 is definately a nice horn... so are the Marks but for the $$ I definately think the P.M. is much much better.

[GAS_Wyo]

I'd say no, unless your MKVII is not doing the job for you. Regardless of the "talk", I think the MKVII is a nice instrument, allowing for the normal variances among all manufacturers. And, as good as the PMs may be, they are Taiwanese and probably not in the same league as a Selmer-Paris saxophone, regardless of model.

I own two Taiwanese-made saxophones and I like them. But I would not trade any of my Selmers or Bueschers for a Taiwanese-made saxophone. DAVE
Mo,
Dave has posted over 4000 opinions on SOTW...I've posted a lot less. I'm thinking of sending one of my PM's to him for a test-drive. ;) The comment about these horns not being in the same league sort of gets under my skin a little. Everyone else has been nice and ignored this short-sighted opinion, but I can't. (oh no, here comes one of Dad's lectures)

I was always very envious of the young lady in my highschool band whose parents bought her a brand new 1976 Selmer Paris Mk VII Tenor. At the time, the local Music Store was selling them for around $600...a lot of money back then. That horn had the best sound in the section. However, all of the other players were playing either Bundy or Yamaha student models. We all sounded different, but Terri's horn gave her a sound none of us could match. From that moment on I thought the Selmer-Paris was IT!

I got into the Jazz band in college and heard a King Super 20 tenor. I thought, Wow, Alan has a great sound. No special mouthpiece, there must be some awesome sound in that horn. That got me to thinkin'. (at the time I was playing the school's Mk VI Bari, so I had no complaints.)

I stuck with the thought that Selmer is the best throughout many gigs that paid very little...summer theater, community bands, etc. When I started making a little money more than my kids and house payments demanded, I started looking for a new alto. I searched ebay for only Selmers for 2 years before I found the perfect deal. Bought the Serie II Alto.

THEN, I started getting back into playing a lot more. Started searching for new horns. Wound up everywhere for about 2 years with my job. Went into every music shop I could with my mouthpieces when I had an hour. Houston, Denver, Columbus, Cleveland and Cincy Ohio, Billings, MT, etc. I just tried them out. I found 1 horn that really stood out...a Yanagisawa tenor. But I still was not impressed enough to give up the original Selmer Bundy tenor mom and dad bought me in 1973 (used).

Finally, I got on SOTW, read for about 4 months before even joining, and then started asking around. Upon recommendations here, I went to SaxAlley to try out a bunch of horns. I tried 3 PM's, a Ref 54 and a Serie III. To me, there was no comparison! The PMXT-66R was in tune, played flawlessly and had that one sound I had been searching to find.

Bottom line, I had an open mind before I laid down the bucks for a new horn. I liked them so much, I bought both the tenor and the 67R alto. My Serie II alto is being sold on consignment right now. Get thee to as many stores that selleth instruments of music, and trieth out as many as it taketh to decideth the sound you desire to maketh. Then, go for what you want!

IMO, you might just find you like the PMXT-66R more than your Mk VII.

[Dave Dolson]

Greg: Short-sighted, eh? DAVE

[Dave Dolson]

I will stand by my first answer, regardless of whether someone else had a positive experience with a Mauriat saxophone. The question wasn't whether or not the poster should buy a PM. I know many folks who like their PM horns. And, congrats to anyone who owns one and loves it.

The question was should the poster TRADE away his MKVII for a Mauriat. Greg, I don't care HOW good a PM (or Cannonball or Antigua or any of the other nice playing Taiwan saxophones) may be, I wouldn't trade away a known and respected marque (especially one that I liked and played good) for a Taiwanese saxophone . . . period.

Would I buy a Taiwanese saxophone? Of course - I already have (as I stated above). I think it would be short-sighted to make such a trade. How many posters do we have here who regret letting certain horns go? A bunch, I'd wager.

As far as Selmers, I'm not a huge Selmer fan, although I've owned several, still have three, and have enjoyed the experience. I think Yanagisawas are much better, over all. Maybe even the Mauriats are better. But that wasn't the issue. DAVE

[GAS_Wyo]

Who knows? Maybe the PM will be the next great horn? In that case, short-sighted may very well be true!

[gary]

Timely subject. I was looking through a music mag today, attracted to a nice PM ad and then it struck me. How interested would I be in a PM if Keilwerth had just as nice a publicity campaign going on?

Better to "love the one you're with" unless you know for sure the grass really is all that much greener. Mo - I would advise caution. Actually, I don't know where one finds PMs here in Germany but I sure as heck wouldn't dump a Selmer (any Paris Selmer) for a PM without really giving one a good workout.

[58tenor]

What Gary said. The VII is a GREAT sax and will prolly appreciate handsomely. More to the point,by far, is the guys I know with VIIs get a monster sound. Get the P but keep the Selmer at least for awhile. I know little. I bet the guy you offer to trade with will jump at it. That's a clue.

[GAS_Wyo]

There are 2 ways to determine value of a horn
Try to sell it and see what you get.
Decide you want something else and trade it away for what you want.
.
Mo is asking about the 2nd method.

None of us want to lose money on an asset, but sometimes the value of that asset to the owner is worth losing money over if he wants something new. Now, I'm not advocating that Mo lose money to get what he wants. And I'm not advocating that he have 'traders remorse' 10 years from now over getting rid of the Selmer...the one that got away. If Mo has come to this site to get opinions about trading, he may have decided that the VII isn't worth as much as he thought previously. In that case, the PM may be better for him. However, if the VII will be worth more than the PM 5 years from now, I'd recommend staying with the VII. It depends on Mo.

Another thought...the person wanting to get rid of his PM may see things the same way Gary and Dave do. The Selmer may be what he wants. That's why I believe he should do what all of you told me a few months ago...go out and try horns until you find what you want. Then go for it.

I must have Alzheimers...I'm starting to repeat myself. 8-)

[Daktion]

greg... i think u're starting to understand what alot of us PM owners have been experiencing. Its a tough battle to try and change the minds of others who have are used to something. Hopefully 5 yrs down the road, PM will be more well known and accepted.

The biggest problem right now is distribution. However, I like where they are going with it so far.... their aggressiveness imo will paid dividends as they start picking up dealers from all over the world. Hopefully, one day a PM dealer will be of driving range to Gary and he spends his next 2000 posts helping us on our cause. Till then, it'll be tough convincing members who really can't "test" out a pm that it is a good horn and worth the hassle and $$

btw mo .... can't you buy and keep the mkvii? It's not a ref54 so you dont need to mortgage your house... it's only half that price so your car will do just fine :D

[deiter1977]

There are 2 ways to determine value of a horn
Try to sell it and see what you get.
Decide you want something else and trade it away for what you want.
Mo is asking about the 2nd method.

None of us want to lose money on an asset, but sometimes the value of that asset to the owner is worth losing money over if he wants something new...

However, if the VII will be worth more than the PM 5 years from now...

I agree with Greg. Dovetailing off what he has started, I would suggest that the smartest course of action is to combine the two methods he prescribes. We can assume that Mo is at least considering that the PM may be the best horn for him, and that the VII may NOT be the best horn for him.

Mo, if the VII can bring you more money than the PM is selling for, and you decide the PM is what you want, then maybe you should sell the VII, buy a PM, and pocket the difference!:D In any case, as both Greg and I have said above, try every horn you can, then choose the horn you like best. Financial considerations aside, this is really the only significant basis on which to buy a saxophone. Happy hunting!:)

[GAS_Wyo]

Thanks for helping to bail me out, Gerald! I'm not having the best 'thinking-day' today, so I'm in need of all the help I can get. Been feeling a little sick. That's why I've been on and off SOTW all day.

Daktion, it's going to be a long, uphill road to convince Adolfe's sax lovers to think about somewhere besides France, Japan or Germany to buy a horn, but I'll be here. :D

Come to think of it, did Adolfe know his instrument was being made in Germany and Japan? :twisted:

[thehighend]

I think two different issues, economics and quality, are being discussed here, and mixing the two is causing the seeming disagreement.

As a matter of economics, many people (myself included) would find it difficult to trade their European high-resale-value sax for an unproven brand with questionable resale value. The unproven brand might even have a superior product, but still from an economics standpoint the trade would not be attractive. It's not so much a European-vs.-Taiwanese issue as much as a proven-brand vs. unproven-brand issue. For example, if Amati came out with a wonderful sounding new horn, I expect the same debate would ensue.

Then there's the matter of quality. PM's quality is apparently very good, and I think that it's very possible that the construction and sound qualities of PM horns might match that of Selmer. The quality issue is probably very debatable, and to add any value to that particular debate, I would really need to compare PM and Selmer horns side-by-side.

So, I think from an economics standpoint, it's hard to argue against the points already put forward by Dave and others. From a construction/tone quality perspective, the Selmer-vs.-PM debate will continue for sure. Fortunately, it has already been noted that Yanagisawa beats out Selmer, so even if it's debatable whether Selmer beats PM, at least we know that Yanagisawa stands apart. :)

[rabbit]

mosplace,

Considering the 'arsenal' listed in your profile you'd seem to a person
of reasonable material means.

So, keep the Selmer and protect yourself from remorse over a hasty
decision. If you can, try the P. Mauriat but if not buy the thing. Seems
like you could sell it where you're at since you'd have a monopoly on
the immediate supply. Yes, you risk some money. Think of it as risk
management, like an insurance policy.

Maybe you need both of the horns anyway!

[mosplace]

@All,

thank you very much for so many answers and opinions, I realy appreciate this.

I guess I will waint, until they are over here in Germany on the market and try it before i will buy it:D :D .

[gary]

@All, thank you very much for so many answers and opinions, I realy appreciate this. I guess I will waint, until they are over here in Germany on the market and try it before i will buy it.
Wise decision. ;)

BTW folks, for the future should know that mo is a woman.

She's made her decision but I wanted to add the comment, since it has been so passionately voiced, that I don't think anyone on this thread who urged caution is anti-PM or even pro Selmer - heck, I haven't had a Selmer since the 80's. You PM guys should consider that, while you might be the bastard step-children at the moment, the advice is primarily, like thehighend said, economic or, like I (harumph) say about trying before buying. This has nothing to do about the quality of PMs.

Nor are your preferences being ignored. But I had the experience of being convinced, based on solid opinions and recommendations from SOTWers that I did and do value, that a Medusa was right up my alley. So I visited a dealer who had one, fully intending on making a quick purchase. I played it and was not overwhelmed. I picked up a Keilwerth he had there and went "wow". I now play a JK.

"Play before you Pay" is not anti-anything. It's just common sense. ;)

On this same topic, a SOTWer passed along to me great advice which I have used twice now. Keep your old horn for a good year while you're playing your new one. After that, if you find yourself not missing the former one, you can sell it with no later nagging "what if" questions.

[GAS_Wyo]

Mo,
I had the thought as I was writing yesterday that you may be of the female persuasion. But I just forged ahead without stopping to check. My enthusiasm for what I think is best (at the moment) outweighed my desire to be politically correct. I apologize if any offense was taken. You'll see the rest of my apology following:

Dave and Gary, et al
I realize my enthusiasm for my new horns is presently clouding my normally good judgement on giving advice. For this, I sacrificed my firstborn to the Gods last night. :D As I stood at the precipice of Krakatoa, I realized that I am a little too one-sided (for now) to be giving any advice objectively. But I threw Jordan in anyhow! :twisted:

My deal...I am so excited about getting some great horns for a reasonable price that I feel I've gotten away with theft. Or at least the best deal I could have afforded. I just want to let everyone know before PM raises the price again. On that note, how many times did Cannonball and Antiqua raise their prices from the original retail?

Mo,
Waiting is best. That was part of my point in explaining my story of finding the PM's. No harm, no foul?

[mosplace]

@GAS Wyo, no problem. Guess, the ladies are in a minority here. You couldn't know that I'm female neither my nick nor my signature gave you a clou. So don't worry about that. Even if I signed with my real name "Anke", lot's of English speaking persons, think it's a male name. So what!

I can understand your enthusiastics. The same thing is, when I start talking about my Keilwerth Shadow or some of my c-melodys. I think that is totaly ok. I appreciate all the different opinions here, very much. That is the reason, why I ask this question.

A sax shop or a catalog can never give you an objektiv opinion. They want to sell the product. Here I have the chance to find out, what most of the players think about their instrument. That is a very big value, we have here and that is the reason, why I love this forum so much!

[Mark R]

Yeah, is's a kinda hard decision. My Mark VII is a realy nice horn. Great intonation, still in very good condition. The only thing I'm missing is a little more edge and darkness in its sound. Compated to my Shadow it sounds very soft.



Mos, To get a bit more edge and darkness your solution may not need to be so drastic as to getting rid of your MKVII. Instead of buying a different saxophone I think you should consider getting an aftermarket neck or a different mouthpiece set-up for your MKVII......in fact maybe a good alternative would be to contact Tim at www.saxalley.com to see if one of the P. Mauriat necks will fit your MKVII.....the neck will make a more of a difference in how the actual horn will perform VS changing mouthpieces......also you might want to consider a few other necks out there like a Barone or Ponzol.

All those would certainly be a less costly alternative to selling and buying a new horn and might get you what you are wanting without changing up everything.

To sell your VII, that you already know is a great playing horn for something you may or may not like....also at this point has a risky resell value would be like throwing the baby out with the bath water.....i.e. solution might be just a new neck or mouthpiece instead of an entire change of horns.

That being said.....I do love my P. Mauriat PMXT-66R, it is my main gig and recording saxophone (today!) but without hesitation there is no way I would sell a Selmer in good condition, my B&S or a Keilwerth in order to have the PMauriat.

[Grumps]

I also wanted to upgrade my Mark VII tenor a few years ago. After a very long process (about a year), I went for a 10M. Now there is some sentimentality involved (the VII was my first ever brand new horn), but I was tempted to sell it. Thing is, my son plays, so it can be his some day; and till then I've got a very capable spare. Should I ever have to get rid of it, it would only be after I've had much time to evaluate which horn I truly prefer.

As a side note, this is in the PM section, and as in any specialty section, there is plenty of the proverbial preaching to the choir. The Sax v. Sax section might be a bit more of a neutral place.

[Sigmund451]

I still maintain the stance that PM is a fringe brand most everywhere off SOTW and that they are diluting their product too quickly with options and have supply side issues. Additionally they are getting up there in price. Im not sure if there would have been so many acolades for this horn were it not for its initial "Bang for the Buck" perception. As their prices edge quickly upwards towards some mainline brands I think more people will be eyeing the purchase more carefully and tossing around many of the arguements/suggestions mentioned here.

Someone compared their startup to Yahama or Yani...maybe...but how many horn companies did not make it despite a good product out of those two new big market players? Also keep in mind early Yanis, Yahamis, and early B&S horns have limited return.

Now the flip side...If its your sound and ya gotta have it then who cares. ESPECIALLY if you are one to keep a horn for a long time. Then, regardless of potential loss, you can honestly say you got your moneys worth in enjoyment and time. If you are one to include economic factors into significant purchases (at least it is for me) then Id think long and hard about laying my cash on the line. My question would be...if I could get the sound Im looking for in a more established line of instruments. If PM goes out like so many where are you going to find parts???

OUCH!

I think the neck idea is a great one. I play an alternate neck on my Selmer and it really opened up the sound, offered more volume, and moved it closer to the direction you tend to be leaning. I dont know how it would behave on a VII.

Thats my 2 cents.......It wont buy gum anymore!

[GAS_Wyo]

http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=37502

It's not a P.Mauriat, but the LA Sax is priced way less than the PM's. I liked their sound. You might consider one of these. When WW&BW was clearing out their inventory I seriously considered one.

The first post may describe why you'd like to change...I found it interesting.

[jazaddict]

Having tried the 66, 66r, an d66ns next to my Ref54 I decided that I didn't like the PM's MORE than the 54, AND at some point I'd buy an NS PM because I did like its 'differentness" than my Ref.

My advice:
I don't think its a good idea to trade the Mark VII for a PM, not because one's "better" than the other, but because of the disparity in cash value.

If you like the PM BETTER than the Selmer, sell the selmer & buy the PM (and a small car). If you like them both for different reasons, keep the Selmer & save your pennies (deutsh marks?) for the PM.

And don't do ANYTHING til you TRY 'EM.

[saxez]

I think you should keep your Selmer MK VII. My band members is playing PM 66 sandblast model tenor sax. I tried one time when we are playing together. I really don't want to say it is not better than Selmer Mark VI, VII or other models, but also not to be better other brands as Keilwerth, Kohlert, H Couf, Heritage, Couesnon, YTS 875, Martin, Conn, King, Yani. But you know that you are different than others, so you might try one at a music store before own it. Don't blame on me as an anti-PM saxes, they are good horns, but when I have to compare them with some other horns. I would tell what I have played on my own opinion. BTW, setup is very importance to make the sound out of the horn. I use Ponzol M1 .115, old model Lebayle studio metal 7*, Lawton gold 7, HR Berg Larsen 110/2and 105/1 metal, HR Meyer 7, E.Rousseau metal 7, Dukoff D8, Otto Link STM 7*, HR Otto Link 8, oldest model Gregory 5A20, HR Brilhart 5*, HR Zinner strathton 7, HR Vandoren T77, Beechler metal 7, Selmer Soloist C** refaced. They all are not the same for each horn I played. One is good on one horn, but on others. The one which you like the most is the best. You can try out mouthpieces instead of horns, because it costs you less than spending on horns.

[TheJono]

The only engraved custom class Mauriat is coming out now (named 76). Models 66 and 66R have no engraving (even though the P.Mauriat brochure shows them) just like the Ref.54 matte, not sure about the nickel silver.
The PMST 66R has no engraving, but the more recent PMXT 66R has the engraving and the super VI neck.

[bradshawm]

My 2 cents - I watch the PM thread pretty consistently since I own the PMST 66ns. One thing I have noticed which has caused me to question a lot of what is being said about the future of Taiwanese horns is the myriad of off brands that supposedly come from the same factory and is the same thing with a different name for much cheaper. Ever since the Barone and the TKMelody came out, the PM thread which was always hopping, has died down to the point the posts are relatively rare. Combine that with the prices that the PM has risen to and I would have trouble buying another one, at least brand new. I don't own and have never owned a Selmer, but as much as I love my PM, I would never trade a good playing Selmer Paris horn that I already owned for one. When I bought my 66ns, I was very tempted by the 66R but looked at two different horns in which some of the rolled part of the tone holes were defective. I am not saying they are all bad horns, just don't buy without trying first.

[tenor2toes1]

I got rid of my selmer serie 3 for my PM 66r and am still more than happy.

[Blowhard2]

Mos, To get a bit more edge and darkness your solution may not need to be so drastic as to getting rid of your MKVII. Instead of buying a different saxophone I think you should consider getting an aftermarket neck or a different mouthpiece set-up for your MKVII......in fact maybe a good alternative would be to contact Tim at www.saxalley.com to see if one of the P. Mauriat necks will fit your MKVII.....the neck will make a more of a difference in how the actual horn will perform VS changing mouthpieces......also you might want to consider a few other necks out there like a Barone or Ponzol.

All those would certainly be a less costly alternative to selling and buying a new horn and might get you what you are wanting without changing up everything.



I would definitely try some different necks on your Mk7 Tenor , before consigning it to the Ether!

Remember the old saying ; You just may not know what you've got, until it's gone!!

It's worth trying a Selmer silver neck, a Barone , or a "MK7" mauriat neck to open up the sound , before an ultimate sale "!

Blowhard2

[rispoli]

Do you realize guys that you are posting on a thread that is more than 2 years old...?

[Blowhard2]

Do you realize guys that you are posting on a thread that is more than 2 years old...?

No matter - Delivering the full potential of a MK Vii is timeless, ever capable of improvement ,and eternally worthwhile !

Blowhard2