play testing new horns

[hannibal]

Read this quote from a different thread (Low A vs Low Bb baris):

"...if there is anything a player knows it's how to make sure a horn is in tune with itself... [this is] the correct way to test a horn rather than just trying to play every lick he ever practiced..."

OK. How does everyone out there play test their new horns? Is there one correct way?

[jp3]

OK, I'll ask what must be dumb question of the day - How does one test to see that the horn plays in tune with itself?

[hannibal]

I'm not sure I know either- hence the new thread. My guess would be to finger low C but blow middle C harmonically, then test if that's in tune against the standard fingering for middle C. Or do you use other notes? Or am I completely wrong?

It would be useful to know this and other tips for checking out a new horn before I buy my next one.

Also, as the horn is new (at least to you), how do you know how much of the tone/playing problems are in the horn and how much in the reed/mthp/lig set-up you just happen to have with you that day? There's lot of discussion about different set-ups, but how do you play test a horn? With a standard set-up? Different for each?

[Ritchie]

hannibal, the procedure you describe would only allow you to find the best position of the mouthpiece on the cork, the "sweet spot" so to say. When placing the mouthpiece there, the chamber volume in the mouthpiece should be exactly the same volume as the cut off part of the cone (from the conical sax bore). That the octaves are correct is a necessary condition to play the sax in tune with itself, but to say it really is requires you play all the notes, without correcting your embouchure or your air stream. When you are getting used to a particular saxophone you'll learn how to make these adjustments automatically. So it might as well be that you are used to a really out of tune student horn and suddenly have problems when you try a well set up pro model, just because you still subconsciously make the corrections for the shortcomings of your old horn...

[baribri]

Sorry Rich, gotta disagree with your theory, placing the mouthpiece where you want it is meaningless when you test the horn harmonically against iself, if you place it way up on the bocal then all the harmonics should be equally as sharp or too low on the bocal they should all be equally as flat.. here is the jest of the whole test from the original thread..

According to the following players, who by the way, were marvelous players and teachers both when alive and the one still with us who I would rather not name because I don't think he wants publicity at this late time in life but believe me it is a great way of testing a horn and lastly yes to Richard "Bootman"'s words about ear training etc are correct toa point but to add that of course no sax is absolutely in tune and to think so is very naive. That having been said and armed with the knowledge that as a player you must constantly adjust intonation to those around you both in a section and on all other instruments to achieve tonal harmony. The best way of testing a sax to be sure that it is in tune with itself is to start on your low Bb and without changing fingering to jump up one octave then on to the next and lastly to the 5th all without changing fingerings sort of like the basic octave jumping exercise you should have been doing when you first started playing. Do the same chromatically to at least the low D and the harmonics on top of this fingering. All the harmonics you get are crucial that they are in tune with the bottom fingering otherwise the horn has inert troubles and you should move on to another horn.
Joe Allard
Joe Napoleon
Prof. Emeritus Allan XXXXX
PS: when I referred to the "tire kicker" please don't misunderstand, most of the players and students that used to come by were wonderful but as always in life there are going to be times when no matter what you do you cannot deal with less than perfect minds and you have to just do what you have to do. This was the case and in no uncertain terms the person in question was only out to kill time with no regard for the value of the time or others and add to this that they were not smart enough to acknowledge the opportunity to learn from those with vastly more experience than themselves.
Thanks for the ears guys....

[woodwindmaster06]

to play test a new horn make sure you bring your tunner sounds may decieve you it may sound awesome but put it up against a tuner and it may turn from awesome to horrible

[baribri]

unfortunately a tuner will only tell you one note at a time and usually only if your concert A is about right. When a horn is tested first we will assume you can hear a concert A without a tuner, if not you should start memorizing that sound as the old fashioned instructers would have you do, carry around a tuning fork until you memorize A440
The tuner cannot tell you if the horn is in tune with itself and to make matters worse when one uses a tuner (not a very good nor professional idea) one tends to try to bend notes to match what the tuner is showing. This will not help you in correctly selecting a proper horn. Sorry to say..

[woodwindmaster06]

a tuner at least will tell you if you are terrably of tune like the lemon Yamaha Zs

[UOPJohnny]

Everyone seems to have their own ideas on play-testing horns.

I agree with bringing a tuner. Don't look at it until you establish a tone. Tune a note that's generally stable on all horns (e.g. middle B or G), then closer your eyes, and maybe play down into the lower and higher octaves. Stop on a note, open your eyes, and see where you are on the tuner. Oftentimes, you compensate for a horn's deficiencies when you watch a tuner as you play.

I don't agree with the overtone-tuning concept. I studied with one teacher who believed that whether the overtones were in tune or not had more to do with the player/emboucher then with the horn. The more horns I play and the more my emboucher develops, the more I agree with him.

As for using a mouthpiece, bring the pieces that you use all the time! If a horn is perfectly in tune with a Ponzol piece, but you slap on your S80 C** that you use constantly and it suddenly has horriffic tuning, then it's not the horn for you. Although I'd say that the Selmer S80 C*, C** and D are the most common mouthpieces around (also the Yamaha 4C), so I'd bring something along those lines (if you use one yourself).

The main thing is that you play test, though. Whatever your personal method may be, play-testing before you buy is much, MUCH more prudent than ordering something in the mail without a chance to play it... although, if you have a chance to order something through the mail and then send it back, you can get some great deals.

[Bootman]

What Baribri says is correct. Harmonic intonation will give you a good idea wether the horn is set-up well. A tuner isn't good for a whole range of reasons, firstly a tuner will give you the mathematically correct pitch for any given note, not wether the harmonics of a given note are in tune or not (try a Peterson tuner for yourself and you will be very surprised at the results). Secondly, tuning when playing within an ensemble is a constant thing and it requires exceptionally good ears to do this and tone match with those around you so that the whole section blends and sounds as one. Thirdly, intonation is different depending on which instrumentation you're playing with and where you're playing within the ensemble. Some notes will need to be sharper so that the chord rings, others will need to be flatter. This is what I mean by tuning by ear, it is like singing in this way.

The octave intonation technique that Bri suggests is very good, it works well. Try these things out for yourself before you make any blanket statements. You can learn a lot from players who have lots of experience, tried lots of things. I have learnt many things from the older big band players, they are usually only too happy to tellyou things if you're prepared to listen.

[woodwindmaster06]

when you play test horns make sure you play test a lot of saxophones to make sure this saxophone is for me and try a range of brands yamaha, yanasawa, selmer, and keilwerth and find the best of each of those companies then compare the best of all the companines and find the one that suits you best.

[UOPJohnny]

firstly a tuner willgive you the mathematically correct pitch for any given note, not wether the harmonics of a given note are in tune or not (try a Peterson tuner for yourself and you willbe very surprised at the results) ... I have learnt many things from the older big band players, they are usually only too happy to tellyou things if you'r eprepared to listen.

Good call bootman, I didn't think about that.

I've been gifted (/cursed) with the ability to hear if overtones are in tune just listening to the sound. So that reasoning just skipped my thinking entirely.

Ditto on the old big band players! My first teacher was one of 'em. Absolutely amazing guy.

[hannibal]

As usual in SOTW, I'm learning heaps reading this debate. Thanks for the on-line lesson!

Can confess to having a tuner but can also recognise the limitations with this method that have been discussed. I will definitely keep bootman's and baribri's thinking in mind next time I'm tempted to toy with it. And the tip about using your preferred mouthpiece/reed/lig set-up and matching a horn to that makes sense too.

The more I learn the more I realise how much I don't actually know... man, music is beautiful like that.

[Mike Ruhl]

The best way of testing a sax to be sure that it is in tune with itself is to start on your low Bb and without changing fingering to jump up one octave then on to the next and lastly to the 5th all without changing fingerings sort of like the basic octave jumping exercise you should have been doing when you first started playing. Do the same chromatically to at least the low D and the harmonics on top of this fingering. All the harmonics you get are crucial that they are in tune with the bottom fingering otherwise the horn has inert troubles and you should move on to another horn.
This is consistent with what I was taught, what I've read (here and elsewhere), and what I've observed in real life. When I play-test new horns, I use this technique, play scales, do octave jumps, listen and play close attention to the keywork of the horn. For me, play-testing a new horn is all about judging the physical fit of me and the horn, not about sound.

[Gandalfe]

We have a lot of beginners in the community band who rely heavily on a tuner to determine if they are in tune. The whole band will be playing and these players are looking at a tuner that is clipped to their instrument!

I find that when I'm playing with the trombones and then switch to playing with the clarinets (remember, the sax is the swing instrument in most music) I have to adjust carefully, not to the perfect pitch but to match the section that I am playing with.

I have found the overtone method the easiest way to help me pick a new horn.

[JL]

Okay, here's a dumb(?) question. When you check the intonation of the harmonic tones (while fingering low Bb, for example), do you use a tuner, or just trust your ear to hear the interval correctly?

[Mike Ruhl]

Ear. If you can't hear it correctly, this whole discussion is moot anyway.

I once played in a community band where the otherwise very demanding director would tune everyone by shoving a tuner in front of them. The first time he did that to me, I stopped playing and said, "What's that thing?". Kind of indignantly, he said, "It's a tuner!". To which I cleverly replied, "I use these," and pointed to my ears. He never pointed that blasted tuner at me again. But I digress.

Back to the original question. If a horn is out of tune with itself, the middle range of the horn will be kind of stuffy and unresponsive, as the horn is fighting itself.

[morgan]

... start on your low Bb and without changing fingering to jump up one octave then on to the next and lastly to the 5th all without changing fingerings .. Do the same chromatically to at least the low D ...All the harmonics you get are crucial that they are in tune with the bottom fingering otherwise the horn has inert troubles...

Are you saying the harmonics themselves could go out of tune on some horns?
I thought the deal was to compare the harmonics (which "have to be in tune" due to physics) with the normal fingerings.

[baribri]

In theory they have to be in tune, in reality, using the same fingering for the I VIII and V and your ears, they should be right on the money, if not there is something wrong with the horn and there are plenty of horns out there that give owners fits and are stuff in the middle because not only are the "horns fighting themelves" but the player is fighting the horn. Who needs that!! Lastly is hey if any of you doubt what I am saying no sweat, keep going your own way and disregard what I am telling you.. I will not hurt me it will only give some other cat down the road an opportunity to buy your bad ax cheaply and put it on ebay.

[Mike Ruhl]

:roll:

[morgan]

...hey if any of you doubt what I am saying no sweat, keep going your own way and disregard what I am telling you.....

Whoooah, easy there, amigo. I asked in order to make sure I got your meaning exactly right: because I am learning from you, not criticizing you.

[Big Nick]

I'm puzzled by this.
In order to pick out harmonics whilst fingering a particular low note one has to make small changes to embouchure and/or oral cavity. So what is this going to tell you about playing it normally when you strive to make as little change as possible.
There are plenty of compromises in the manufacture of a sax, but they're all aimed at getting the basic fingerings in tune and sometimes at the expense of intervals obtained harmonically (which, BTW, don't 'have to be in tune').
As for a horn 'fighting itself', I'm afraid I haven't a clue what is meant by this.
Anyway, as regards play testing, tuning comes fairly low down on my list of priorities since I don't think I've ever come across a horn that couldn't be played in tune. I bet even those Yamahas with the dodgy neck that everyone keeps whingeing about can be played in tune. :twisted:

Top of my list are ,'what does it sound like?' and, 'how does it feel?'.

[baribri]

I have to say, after this thread I told my friend Bootman that I was finished with ever posting, let most of these folks and keyboard virtuosi learn things the hard way. I have tried to impart some knowleadge given to me by some of the World's best known teachers and fellow players that I have been fortunate to have worked with and befriended in my 40 some odd years of working with various bands around the USA,only to be constantly rebuked by eveybody trying to impart not the teachings of the greats but to just throw in what they think is the "right thing".
Yes you have to not change your embouchure only in squeezing almost imperceptably and if you use your head along with your ears you are not trying to be in tune you are trying to hear if the horn is in tune with itself.
As to the remark about the Yamaha horns the new models do have a tremendous tuning problem because of the necks but this is a no brainer. If someone had used the in or out of tune knowleadge they never would have the problem of having to worry about playing the uppers in tune by tweaking and changing embouchurs and breath support constantly because they would have wisely passed on these models until the problem was corrected.
To those of you that appreciated whatever I may have imparted to you I am really sorry to end my contributions and all I can say is the best of luck to all of you.
Brian

[Big Nick]

Baribri - I'm sorry you've got the hump. I'm not trying to rebuke anyone, merely trying to understand a bit better (the Yamaha comment was tongue in cheek). What I meant about harmonics not having to be in tune related to an earlier poster who suggested that the laws of physics say they have to be. I'm sure you know this is not the case.
If you've bowed out of this perhaps someone else can explain exactly why the harmonics matter if the sax plays well and easily in tune with the usual fingerings.

[Ritchie]

baribri wrote:


Sorry Rich, gotta disagree with your theory, placing the mouthpiece where you want it is meaningless when you test the horn harmonically against iself, if you place it way up on the bocal then all the harmonics should be equally as sharp or too low on the bocal they should all be equally as flat..

Well, I do not really see where you disagree, or it was maybe that I was not precise enough in my post. I was not talking about the harmonics relative to the fundamental, but the relative tuning of long and short fingerings, i.e. the low C and its harmonics relative to the tuning of the shorter air column of a "normally" fingered middle C. A diplacement of the mouthpiece from the optimum position affects the shorter air column more than the long one, both in theory and in real life. If you push the mouthpiece in or pull it out to far, you will get a systematical error when going up and down the scales, depending on the length of the fingered air column. This is an intonation problem which easily can be avoided and is definitely not the horn's fault.

I completely agree to Bootman that playing the sax is a lot like singing, the player is responsible for intonation, not the equipment. This does not deny that bad equipment can give you a hard time.

I just read a book on wind instrument construction (Otto Steinkopf, if anyone cares), and I am not claiming any authority here, but I found a reference to out of tune octave harmonics, which is that the speed of sound inside a tube is a function of the radius and the frequency (Kirchhoff and Trendelenburg):
c = c0 (1 - (0,176 / (r * sqrt (f) ) ) ),
c0 is the speed of sound in free space, r the tube radius, f the frequency. A little bit of math to do...

[1saxman]

Ye Gods! How can such a simple thing get so out of hand that a valued poster has to quit? Look, it's like this. The first thing you want to know about a new sax is, how does it sound? At the same time you're determining that, you'll find out if it blows freely with good volume and even response from one end to the other. Then, you play it against a keyboard or tuner to find out if the horn can play in tune. Then, you play octaves to find out how much adjustment is needed to play it in tune with itself. If middle D sounds loud, clear and in tune, you have generally found a good one. That's the first note I'll play on a sax, and sometimes the last.
A friend brought me a Jupiter student tenor to evaluate for his kid. We were on a gig at the time, so I took the mouthpiece off my Mk VI and put it right on the Jupiter. The horn was unusually stuffy and 'dead'. I told him to take it back, and I got him a WW&BW tenor that blew great. He saved over $600 and the kid now likes playing sax.
It ain't rocket science, but you do have to have a little experience before you can even tell a good horn from a lemon. And, I'm sure I'll hear from the people who believe 'There's no such thing as a bad horn - you just haven't found the right set-up for it'. I believe that some horns blow and some don't. This has never been proved wrong as far as I'm concerned.

[JL]

Right on Isaxman, I have to agree with you. That's pretty much the way I've always tried out horns. Going back to the harmonics question, both my Buescher & MK VI tenors play the harmonics in tune. They sound right to my ear and match well with a tuner. I'm not sure why some here are dismissing tuners. They give you an objective measure, but of course they are only tools and should be treated as such. You obviously have to play in tune, by ear, when playing with others.

[Big Nick]

Ritchie - I don't know if you've checked this out, but you might find it interesting:
http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/~jw/harmonics.html

There's also a link from the SOTW links page to their page on sax acoustics, but here it is anyway:
http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/~jw/saxacoustics.html

[morgan]

Just fiddled around with harmonics... the 12th (i.e. low Bb==>F2) was quite sharp. Adjusted my embouchure until the 12th harmonic was spot on. Horn played richer, fuller.

Conclusion: In this case "harmonics out of tune" indicated good horn, player error.

[hannibal]

I suspected that there would be others curious about this topic when I started the thread, but I did not foresee that our little debate/discussion would cause one of us to stop posting altogether.

baribri, I have found your contributions to SOTW valuable and enlightenting, or at the very least a reasonably informed point of view. I'm sure many other posters/players would agree. It would be a shame to lose you.

Perhaps one of the potentially positive outcomes of this debate is that the more knowledgeable and informed the sax buying public is, the less crap horns we will tolerate or buy, and therefore the fewer of these horns that manufacturers will get away with putting on sale in the first place.

I for one will definitely be looking at a potential new horn differently next time. Yeah, I might still blow a few bars of Yardbird Suite to get the feel of things, but the whole harmonics/octave jumping/tuning thing can be applied as well. Now where's that tuning fork...

[Ritchie]

Big Nick, thanks for putting these links here, lots of insight into the scientific background of instruments on these pages.

baribri, if you still read this thread, after all this is a discussion forum where different opinions and views meet, some based on knowledge, some on feeleings, some on wild imagination, some simply on errors and mistakes. But I fail to see a rebuke (maybe it has been deleted in the meantime, I don't know). I would appreciate if you continued posting and share your knowledge. There will always be some people who listen and learn and some who don't.