New C mel in the making

[saxmong]

This post is an attempt to get feedback on serious interest in a new tenor C melody sax.

I am determined to get a new C melody saxophone produced. I believe they are the most sensible model ever made and can’t believe they are still not in production after all these years.

I have approached a factory to get some made for me and they have agreed to make 100 saxes prepaid.

I don’t have the money!

I may be able to raise the money if I can prove there are customers waiting, there fore I invite you to put your name on the list of potential customers.

To do this, Please send me an email at aquilasax@yahoo.co.nz with the subject line: “New C sax wanted”
This will not bind you to any sale but is just an indication of interest.

You could just post on this forum but that will invite unwanted comments and banter which will make wading through the thread difficult and time consuming.

I am aiming to make the first production model with basic improvements such as a modern style octave mechanism and a sympathetic G#-C# key mechanism. I anticipate the price to be around the $700. mark.

Any questions please email me and I will try to answer but don’t hold your breath!

[M Exner]

Agreed! No debate or commentary, just send email.

[rabbit]

Reviving thread to bring it to people's attention again.

Excellent idea.

[mosplace]

to be honest, for this price a good c-melody cannot be made. This is at least my personal opinion. It sounds more like a "cheap" Chinese sax. I would love to buy a good c-melody from a manufacturer with a good reputation. Everything else will rather cause unsatisfied customers and the living up of the old rumors, that c-melodys are bad horns.
I love them and I play them. I would love to see that they will be produced again, but as I stated before, from a good producer.

[Randall]

If you guys knew what a lot of the bargain Taiwan horns were sold to the dealers for, (wholesale price) you would not be skeptical of a 700.00 price tag.
That being said, if this horn is going to retail for $700.00 you can bet it is from Taiwan at best and mainland China at worst.

I have no qualms with a Taiwanese sax! I am sending my email too!

Mo remember where your Cannonball is from!

[saxmong]

Your average Yamaha sells for $750!

I am more interested in getting them made than in retiring!

[bruce bailey]

And the mouthpiece will be....?

[saxmong]

MPC to be as standard 20's C mel.

I like them, if you don't you are welcome to continue with your search!

Should have mentioned that most musical instruments get a minimum 200% price hike between factory and customer.
From my website I can do a little better. aquilasax.com

I personally test everything I sell and will not sell substandard equipment.

If I succeed I will of course followup with a C soprano.

[mosplace]

@Randall, you are right Cannonballs are also from Taiwan and they are very good horns.

It is realy very tempting and I will send my mail too. You know I love these instruments and I do everthing to make them more popular.

Well, we will see. Maybe, we will get a good modern one soon. I published it on our German forum and I guess over here will be a few ones that are interested too.

[barijerry]

Selmer has made Balanced Action models in the tune of C.

Who is going to make the design of this new C-Mel? Will it be a copy of the old ones with a new mecanism?

[saxmong]

I've had a great response from people wanting a new C sax and also some questions.

The new saxes will be available in Brass/laquer, nickel and silver.

I will offer a 1 year money back guarantee.

As for new mechanism, I'm open to suggestions?
So far we have octave mech, G#C# and lower neck strap ring.
High F# has been mooted. I don't find high F# necesary usually. On an Alto it seems essential but the C mel doesn't usually need it.

What do you think?
Until production starts we have time to change!

[Randall]

I for one, would like to have the high F#....
I am wondering what features we can ask for within a bargain price range.?

Aesthetically, I would prefer, real engraving to lazer engraving, real pearls to fake.
Saxmong, if you can tell us the range of options within the cheap price range, it would help.
Thanks!

[ukebert]

The main thing, of course is the neck style, straight or curved. I still think that is the economics permits it, that both styles should be produced. Is that an option?

[Captain Beeflat]

Ukebert. Surely a curved neck...the Conn straight neck results in such a strange playing position. In my view, the essential features to revise are a lowered strap ring & a low C# that does not require the surgical removal of a joint from the left little finger, or the skills of a contortionist, to reach.

[Pete]

I heartily recommend checking out Dave Kessler's endeavor in http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=31254

I don't want to try to muddy the water, but I really think that we'd need to know the make and model of the horn that's going to be made. If it's from the folks that brought us MONIQUE, I'd want to take a pass. If it's from the folks that brought us Cannonball, it might be good.

I'd also want to know if the keywork is "Selmer Style" or if it's based on either a 1920's model or the 1960's Vito. The neck is a bit of an issue, but as the Conn, some late Holtons and Vito all had straight necks, that might actually be the right idea. I've played both kinds of neck and neither feel exactly right.

Maybe a straight C melody?

I also agree that a dealer cost of $700 US is not that big of a deal. Might even be a tad high. I'll have to try to find the e-mail I got from $company when they wanted me to push their horns on my website. I'm virtually positive that the buyer price was about 250% more than the seller price.

===========

Finally, I've never seen a Selmer BA C melody. The newest I've seen was a New Largebore (model immediately prior to the introduction of the Selmer Super Series), s/n in the 12xxx range.

[cmelodysax]

I agree with (or would happily debate) a lot of the sentiments expressed here, but as Saxmong is only asking for emails from "potential customers", I hope you're all sending an email to him as well as commenting here...... What is there to lose ?

Without those emails, it's probably (again) all hypothetical..... Following Dave Kesslers very welcome marathon topic, the interest is there, however diverse the requirements.

[ernesto]

What do you think about an low A on the new C-Mel?

[wmclean]

What do you think about an low A on the new C-Mel?

You mean they can actually DO that ????? That would be great !:!:

[bruce bailey]

I would stick with a low Bb.

[mhoyoux]

To saxmong :

Is there a lot of people interested by purchasing a new C MEl who has email you ?

Max.

[ukebert]

A low A would be nice, considering that 'loses' 2 semitones over the tenor. It would be more useful than the Bb. Only trouble is getting it to work properly. It would probably involve redesigning the horn, or the low notes will not sound properly. There's also manufacturing and repair concerns as well- I would leave it to the next model.

personally I like the straight neck, but then I am over 6 ft, have a long arm span, and can reach an octave and a fifth on piano :-)

[Dave dix]

The low A version will close it to one semi above tenor , now if you had the high G key!!!! where do you stop?
Dave

[cmelodysax]

I was put off buying a MkVI alto with low A by a (very honest) dealer/player, who said it stifled the sound, would have been a good investment tho'...

However, I think sanity dictates just to Bb ? It'll provoke enough comment just being in 'C' - add a 'low A' and it's street cred will go out the window !

[saxmong]

Sorry but I don't divulge personal info.
I also don't do spam.

I will email those that emailed me with major news updates only.

Though I've had a good response, the more, the merrier.

Also keep the improvement suggestions coming; nothing is set in concrete yet.

[Captain Beeflat]

The idea of a low A would, at first glance, seem a good idea.....the main use of a saxophone in C being it's ability to fit in easily with guitar bands....low A in their keys would be more appropriate than Bb....being concert A.
On the downside it is alleged that Selmer altos with low A can be rather stuffy......also, the bell length would have to be increased, resulting in a mini baritone look- alike......on reflection this could look quite cool.

[Pete]

I've played the Mark VI low A alto and many baritones with low A keys. I think the "stuffiness" comments are overrated.

[saxmong]

I personally would love a low A version and would expect one to become as popular as Bb tenors but I think Allan is right and the second wave would carry it better.

I think an adjustable thumb hook and real engraving will be difficult enough for this model.

I actually find the standard thumb hook comfortable and my alto saxes adjustable thumb hook a nuisance.

Keep the suggestions coming, I'll see what I can do.

[bruce bailey]

You could also build a straight horn to low C only. It could use the same body tubing with a different neck and a bell-like attachment for the C pad. That way you could eliminate the extra bulk.

[cmelodysax]

Bruce, sorry, but when I first read your posting I smiled. But then I thought that it may not be a bad idea, and now I'm actually warming to it.

May just be a 'different enough' horn to appeal to a load of players who just don't want another 'sax-shaped' sax between alto & tenor (as well as the players who really do want a sax in C). I go to low B-nat relatively infrequently, and low Bb even less. No leaky bell notes - Hmmmmm...

Only concern I have is over the length of the neck, I find the straight-neck Conn C-Mel playing position too 'pushed away' (preferring the curved-neck), so this could be a limiting factor - especially for small/young players with shorter arms. Could be overcome with some thought.

[bruce bailey]

I think the neck could be curved slightly like the modern sopranos. The reason I mention to low C is that it is a good concert pitch and being that B is a leading tone, not as important. Now I do realize that band directors covet the sacred concert Bb but who needs 'em anyway? Flutes have gotten by for centuries without the low notes.

[saxmong]

Any ideas on engraving subjects for the new horn appreciated?
Any suggestions for improvements welcome?
The design is not yet fixed.

[saxmong]

As I said,
I personally want a low A but...
Not this time.

I need some ideas for bell engraving??
Elk?
Eagle?
Starship enterprise?

[Pete]

Mmmm. What's the horn going to be called (as in "make and model"). That could make a difference.

[rabbit]

This is an "economy" horn. Maybe just put the $ into the horn &
skip the decoration for a better sounding & playing result?

[hgiles]

Personally, if I could choose between a low A and a high F# and a higher quality horn, I would rather have the quality.

The same goes for the engraving. Don't even lacquer it, just make the best horn you can make within the given budget. If the manufacturer is already secured then we may be stuck on the quality issue and the engraving and lacquer might only serve to be the "Emperor's New Clothes."

Rabbit, our posts crossed...but I agree with you.

[rabbit]

hgiles,

Thanks, I feel less lonesome, no crossing here.

[cmelodysax]

Hmmm, bare-brass was a great raw finish on original C-Mels, but I suspect the metal quality nowadays may not be that good at this price - lacquer usefully covers a multitude of sins on modern horns......

[saxmong]

Did I miss something Allan?
How can clear laquer cover a problem when you can see thru it?

[cmelodysax]

Aaaaahhh - but it's not normally 'clear' lacquer thats used on instruments, is it - it's normally gold, or pink, or whatever - not see-through ( or 'see-thru'...) or transparent.

A clear-laquered sax looks just like glossy bare-brass, world of difference. I've got one ot those, yeuk !

P.S. "Alan", one "L", not Allan, Allen, Alyn etc.....;)

[DeanoTheSaxman]

Hi "G" to low "A" would be a well useful C Melody sax :-)

[Captain Beeflat]

Yes Deano....& with Bb tenor bore/length ratio, as distinct from C Melody, which is really a long alto, what a blues instrument that would be; with both the highest and the lowest note fitting with guitar keys.....give it unto me :-))

[cmelodysax]

Beeflat - now that is a good marketing phrase,

"What a blues instrument - with both the highest and the lowest note fitting with guitar keys"

Are you taking notes, Saxmong ? This is free consultancy......;)

[Gandalfe]

A question asked by a good friend of mine is why is there all this talk of curved or straight necks, low A or high G and which finish do we want. The most important question is really, will the modern instrument have better intonation than the vintage horns? That would be the true test of quality, perhaps the hardest thing to achieve, and something many of us would pay for.

[cmelodysax]

I'd hope that good intonation is a 'done deal' in this high-tech age - absolutely no point in having the same challenge as some of the 20's C-mels...

Having said that, have you ever played a Buescher C-mel over s/num 200K, or a Martin C-mel over 100K ?

The intonation and the action were both getting there, just before the product died..... (No slur on Conn or King, just haven't tried a late one of those)

[bruce bailey]

I wonder if someone in Elkhart has the body machines for an old C Melody. Keywork is easy to adapt but bodies are the expensive part.

[Gandalfe]

I wonder if someone in Elkhart has the body machines for an old C Melody. Keywork is easy to adapt but bodies are the expensive part.That's an interesting idea. I wonder what happens to the old equipment that was used back then?

[bruce bailey]

I'll sniff around. Often then tooling is old it is gone and since all of these were made before WWII, the war effort may have gotten the metal.

[Gandalfe]

I'll sniff around. Often then tooling is old it is gone and since all of these were made before WWII, the war effort may have gotten the metal.Actually, I'm not sure we'd want the old tooling. Although it would be interesting to hear what happened to them. The old C mels consisted of a cylindrically elongated alto sax bell, an alto sax bottom bow, an alto neck tenon that was too narrow, and a main tube to combine the parts that did not really fit a c bore taper. Conn and Buescher saved the money by doing this.

The result is an inferior horn by any standards. A successful C Melody redesign should not take such shortcuts. There are 100s of thousands of vintage C mels out there. We probably don't need a reincarnation of those. We want a modern, tested redesign of a C tenor sax that would stand the test of time. Now that would be interesting and something to brag about having been a part of.

So we need some investors and then we could try to entice an existing manufacturer to give it a go. Okay, call me a dreamer. 8-)

[Captain Beeflat]

Gandalf....You have neatly fitted into three succinct paragraphs what I have been banging on about...we DO NOT want the original tooling....start again from scratch with tenor in mind...not a long alto. Also, the cost of extending the bell to low A would be minimal given the re-tooling...far more use in guitar keys than Bb.....

[cmelodysax]

Gandalfe - your comments about Conn & Buescher 'compromises' - is that the basic reason why Martin and King always seem to have a bigger, beefier sound ? Or did you pick on Conn & Buescher just at random ?

Certainly Conn & Buescher C-Mels will fit into slightly smaller C-Mel cases, that Martin and King just won't, by virtue of a little extra body/bell bulk.

Apart from the short-lived Vito C-Mel, there was (allegedly) a Weril C-Mel from the 70/80's, with pressed steel guards etc. I have the pics of one that sold on ebay, but I couldn't prise a confirmation (or more info about it) out of the winning bidder....... It came up as a topic here.

[Gandalfe]

Actually, I've only played the Conn, which I prefer and tried the Buescher. Do you think that a complete redesign of the C tenor with intonation and playablity isn't necessary? I'd be interested in your insights here.

[cmelodysax]

Gandalfe - quick answer ? Of course it needs to be a completely new product, otherwise the prejudiced masses will only say "Nah, it's only a reworked 20's horn, and they were horrible..."

As it is, the new C-Sax will have an uphill struggle, you only have to look at all the different 'wants' on this topic, most of them reasonable and with merit, but on a $500 (retail) sax ? But it will need to be something special to generate a niche market for itself, in an area where sax players have (in the main) quite happily existed without a C-Sax since time began.

It won't have the 'extremeness' of a 'nino or a tubax, and I fear just being in C won't be enough.... That's why mini-bari or semi-straight has to be a posibility. Just another starter sax in C won't do it, although I'll be among the first in line for one - but I'm just 'concert pitch' biased.

Sax players are a really picky bunch, elsewhere on this forum the older 'HN White' saxes are being rubbished, yet as C-Mels they are well designed and built, had the altissimo front-F key literally from day one, and play just like any other good vintage sax - with a modern mouthpiece. Same as Martins, my 30's C-Mel plays just as good as my Magna alto, or The Martin tenor - with allowances for the fact that it's 20 or 30 years older than them.

So, yes, we need a new C-Beast. As Python said "...something completely different..." If the idea stumbles, then those of us with enough foresight to buy one of the few (if it gets built) will have something special - I only wish I had enough money to commission Mr Tubax to make a one-off hand-built C-mel for me !

=============

P.S. Coincidentally, under 'General History / Saxes with Low A' - Paul Cohen has posted that he has a Selmer C-Mel in his collection with Low A..............

[Captain Beeflat]

Surely the last thing we need is a cheapo oriental "novelty" instrument.....I strongly suspect however that I am not alone in being a buyer for a well made, well designed instrument from a reputable manufacturer. Low cost is not, in my view, the first object of this proposal....it has to be a very good, not just a cheap horn....oh yes, & low A is becoming a vital feature; Bb can be used as a minor third in the key of G....but A fits in almost everywhere that this horn will be used.

[bruce bailey]

Owing to the old horn's heritage, it seems people would prefer a Tenor in C. I think $1,200 would be a good wholesale price and sold through select dealers only such as Kessler, etc.

[rabbit]

Blue-sky, wool gathering speculation here so shoot me down:

I'd like a comfortable (balance, neck angle, thumb rest), well
intonated, mechanically sound reasonably priced c-mel.

Today this horn would be absolutely alone, without competition
in the marketplace. The horn described would be sort of a historical
first, eliminating the drawbacks of most of the available vintage
c-mels available to today's players.

A thousand horns, a seemingly impossible number to move, would
probably go quickly after a relatively slow start. Said slow start
would probably be offset by the time it takes to build one thousand horns.

Gandalf's speculation about being in on the beginning of something
historical sounds prescient to me.

By the way, why was the original c-mel such a terrific fad in the first
place? Could it happen again, for a practical reason?

Is this the 'meds' talking? Must sleep...

[cmelodysax]

Steve/Saxmong, I'm now getting a few hits on my website from China, is the R&D team checking out designs ? ;)

--

Rabbit, I don't think a new C-Mel will emulate the 20's boom. Think of all the technology we have in the home these days, to entertain and amuse us. In the 20's it was either steam radio, wind-up gramophone, or granny on the joanna (piano) and grandad on the spoons.... The C-mel was the height of home sophistication ! :shock:

[rabbit]

cmelodysax,

I'm sure you are right about the "20's", and sadly so. Wish we'd made music in my childhood home.

Thank you for the 'joana' reference , it is new to me.
I have for a long time claimed to be using the last of the
'steam-operated' computers!

rabbit

[JMac]

Gandalfe - quick answer ? Of course it needs to be a completely new product, otherwise the prejudiced masses will only say "Nah, it's only a reworked 20's horn, and they were horrible...".............. Well, there is a completely re-worked C-sax.. but it is so revolutionary that it too faces an uphill struggle. Strike one -it requires learning a new (albeit simplified) fingering system. Strike 2 - the price. But if I hit the lottery, I'd try one of these (http://cvip.fresno.com/~js210/contra.html)out...

As far as the hits from China, I'd also check eBay to see if a "magnificance, wonderfully larruping hand carved antique saxophone with pictures from your sight soon becomes available....;)

[saxmong]

I've contacted the purveyor of fine chinese C saxophones Several times and got no info in return.

It's either a market research technique or he's fishing for fools!

I'd bet on the latter!

I think a new standard style C mel has the potential to take over the student market. (as soon as the old teachers die off)

[Dave dix]

The same original question has been asked on saxquest forum but with a different name
Dave

[Captain Beeflat]

The following post from Paul Cohen on another board of this forum proves, to me at least, that a low A should be incorporated.

Default
Quote:
Originally Posted by KenK
The low A on bari is now common. There were some Selmer altos made with a low A. I've even heard mention of a C melody with a low A.

Out of curiosity, has anyone ever heard of a low A put on other saxophones? Tenor? Is it even technically possible to put a low A on a soprano?

Selmer, in the early 1930s, made at least one C Melody Tenor with a low A. It is part of my collection. A most amazing, and excellent, playing instrument.

Paul Cohen

[ukebert]

The mini bari is getting closer...

[cmelodysax]

Has this thread "run it's course" then ?

Maybe the only way to (possibly) ever get a modern C-Sax is to always have a thread running somewhere, keeping interest visible. Or if not interest, at least debate. :(

P.S. This in no way reflects badly on Jim Schmidt's mission, all power to him, it's just that I'd prefer not to learn a new fingering system.....

[saxmong]

I don't want this to die but I'd rather that than to borrow large sums of money to produce something that nobody wants.

Does anybody want one?

[ukebert]

I would! How many people have responded by email Steve?

[Captain Beeflat]

Owen....I strongly suspect that more would respond if they knew the specification. My own view is that I would be a customer if :-
1/ It were tenor based...not a long alto as of old.
2/ Manufactured, to a high standard by a known & respected (ideally European or American) maker.
3/ Incorporated Low A.
4/ "Modern" keywork.
To date, we know next to nothing about the proposed manufacturer, quality, or specification.

[ukebert]

I agree Lewis, except for about the manufacturer. Some really quite good horns are coming out of China, for very cheap prices. See:

http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk,
http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk/Reviews/Ultra_Cheap_horns.htm,
http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk/Reviews/Saxes/Alto/Chinese_alto.htm and
http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=38809.

I honestly think that the market will not be pros, but skinflints like me, who just want an instrument that will play, play well, and be affordable.

To your criteria I would also add that it is fully compatable with Bb mouthpieces.

Regards,

ukebert

[Martinman]

To your criteria I would also add that it is fully compatable with Bb mouthpieces.ukebert

A good idea. There is what, one C mel mouthpiece made today? I have only heard of one. I think it is made by Morgan, but I'm not sure.

[saxmong]

There are mouthpieces made by Runyon and beechler as well and next month there will be mouthpieces available from Aquilasax.com, round chamber, 2 mm tip opening, hard rubber.

Capn Bb, we all want a pro model with Low A for $700.
But it ain't never goin ta happen!
At least not before the general sax community start to think of "Cs" as more than just a novelty.

So far I have 30 email responses.
This is a drop in the bucket/pail, but as stats pros say, that equates to about 300 lazy mailers!

As I said before, let me know what you want and I'll see what I can do!
No promises, but neither are you obligated to buy!

[cmelodysax]

All power to your efforts, Saxmong. Once there is a specific design spec, and some tangible indication/example of the quality of output from the manufacturing source (not a C, of course), a deposit would be almost certainly forthcoming.....

P.S. Martinman - modern C-Melody mouthpieces ? Apart from the aforementioned (always wanted to use that word) Runyon, Beechler and Morgan, from memory, here are a few more -

(i) Hans Zinner (Germany - who hasn't heard of Zinner, whose blanks are the basis for many a fine mouthpiece), make both the 'Klassik' and the 'Spezial'.

(ii) Link/Babbit - these have started appearing, special order thro' dealers,

(iii) Windcraft make economy ones in both plastic and ebonite, a UK supplier will reface them to specific requirements,

(iv) LeBlanc,

(v) Rheuben Allen, distributed by Remle.

[danarsenault]

My early TT C tenor likes my Jody HR tenor mouthpiece better than the stock, in terms of intonation. After overhaul, the palm keys were a little sharp, but cork and contact cement fixed that.

[Captain Beeflat]

I think that it goes without saying that any new C tenor must be compatable with a Bb tenor mouthpiece. Most of us who play C melodys use such a mouthpiece with good results. The range of Bb tenor mouthpieces is far greater & as most of us also play Bb tenor, with our favourite mouthpieces, this would eliminate switching.

[ukebert]

Steve, I honestly think that you have to start your campaign aimed at the public, schools, parents and teachers before you go into production. How, I do not know. Making sure the search engines spider your stuff properly would be a start.

I wish you all the success in the world, and I think that ultimately you'll do it. And I encourage all the lazy people out there to sign up. Don't restrict yourself to a C Tenor however, keep thinking about a C Sop. There's just as great a [potential] market, if not greater.

Regards,

ukebert

[saxmong]

Thanks for the encouragement guys,
We're up to 32 now!

I would also like to add that my reed and gig bags sales from my website are going all over the world, places I never would have thought had C melodys.

[ukebert]

How many replies do you need Steve?

[Captain Beeflat]

Steve...You state that 32 people have expressed interest.......if your proposed horn meets the specification which I posted on the 18th then make that 33!
Every success with you admirable project.

[The A Train]

34!

[ukebert]

Just to be sure of things, Steve does want you to email, so [i assume] that he has something a bit more concrete than word of mouth. He is running a business after all. Please send him an email at aquilasax@yahoo.co.nz with the subject line: “New C sax wanted”.

Steve, realisticaly, is there any chance at all of a low A?

Regards,

ukebert

[saxmong]

As I said,
I'm in favour of a low A but I will have to balance up price and problems with the factory.
I think it's better not to try at this stage but I believe in miracles and a cooperative team of techs will make the difference.
One negative person on the team can kill a project!
A bit of enthusiasm can go a long way!

I think 100 on the list would be very convincing!

[AMASAX]

Finally, I've never seen a Selmer BA C melody. The newest I've seen was a New Largebore (model immediately prior to the introduction of the Selmer Super Series), s/n in the 12xxx range.


The 1935 U.S. Selmer catalog has a one-liner entry about 'contacting Selmer' if interested in C Melody horns. Prior to this, the U.S. catalogs included pics of the C Melodies. Best guess is that with the Great Depression hitting it's peak in 1932-33, Selmer went into more limited marketing on these, as they weren't selling, and, in fact, the entire sax market was collapsing.

I am certain Selmer made a Balanced Action C Melody, as I've seen pics of two of them...

And, finally, I'm not sure Selmer even bothered with tooling up a true Super C Melody...I'll have to look
in one of my catalogs(am out of town right now). On these more limited sale models, as you know, Selmer
often transitioned to the new models in a very 'leisurely' fashion.

I have a gold plated 10k or 12k serial Selmer C Melody(burnished, with the extensive engraving) that
appears to be a Large Bore model. Don't have it fixed up, but the body is el primo, and it really is
an outstanding piece of work; very distinctive. Dunno when will ever get around to overhauling it, plus
don't have a mouthpiece, but one of these days this should be an interesting project.

[saxmong]

Am I the only guy who plays C tenor in Church?

We played a French song last sunday, Jesus Christ mon sauveur!
It had a rock n roll rythm and it was so cool.
Key of E
The C sounded awesome!

[Doc Frazier]

I do. You can see it at www.JandJWoodwinds.com

humbly HIS, Doc

[bradshawm]

I will once I get mine back from Doc :D .

[Doc Frazier]

hey bradshawm.....it's leaving tomorrow for home!

[Pannonia]

I think that it goes without saying that any new C tenor must be compatable with a Bb tenor mouthpiece. Most of us who play C melodys use such a mouthpiece with good results. The range of Bb tenor mouthpieces is far greater & as most of us also play Bb tenor, with our favourite mouthpieces, this would eliminate switching.

You are only asking for the redesign of the C Tenor saxophone here. Research and development is very expensive so I doubt that anyone will consider doing it.
I would rather get a good stencil of a nice sax of the past than some halfass design of today.

[cmelodysax]

It's been said before, I have experience of the 'end-of-the-line' Buescher and Martin C-Mels, no G# trill, no forked Eb (at least on the Martin), intonation as good as any vintage sax.

But we're converted, it's trying to get a wider market, and (in the same way that most shun vintage saxes) they won't go for a rehash of 20/30's C-mels. (imho) With the soprillo now becoming more evident, it's only a matter of time before it gets semi-mass produced, guess C-saxes just don't have that extra appeal or charisma.

Maybe a C-Soprillo....? Who's joking, they seem to end up playing flute and high oboe parts (i.e. "C" parts ) on the Bb Soprillo !!!!

[ukebert]

I would rather get a good stencil of a nice sax of the past than some halfass design of today.

Unfortunately the nice sax of the past would have to be from an exceptional model, a late martin would be ideal. However, there aren't too many of these about, and those that do have them are probably unwilling to let them be mangled [im not trying to guilt you into giving up yours Alan, don't worry...]. It should be remembered that this is a business decision, and that the potential sales should have a big impact. It the belief of myself, and of many others here that a C Melody based on the Tenor bore rather than the Alto would sell better. As you rightly point out, r&d is expensive, which is why it will be dificult to find a sax suitable to copy.

regards,

ukebert

[ukebert]

Sorry, Alan, cross-posted. As for the C Soprillo, I asked Mr Eppelsheim about it once, he said that it would be too tiny to play. I think that the C Sop would be the most realistic solution. Although the market for the Cmel may be greater, the C Sop market is probably more accessable.

"But we're converted, it's trying to get a wider market, and (in the same way that most shun vintage saxes) they won't go for a rehash of 20/30's C-mels. (imho)"

True, but we don't have to tell them that it's a rehash... :-)

[Gandalfe]

Maybe a C-Soprillo....? Who's joking, they seem to end up playing flute and high oboe parts (i.e. "C" parts ) on the Bb Soprillo !!!!When we don't have an oboe, I play the key oboe parts on my Conn C soprano. :D

[Pannonia]

A completely new C tenor sounds very exciting, but look at the reality of Eb and Bb instruments. Even large corporations with substantial research resources have a hard time making a sax that plays in tune.
The low cost chinese instruments are just copies of the European, Japanese and, ironically, Taiwanese instruments. Sure they mess around with the keywork and the look of the bell, but the bore, neck and tonehole placements are copies. Some taiwanese factories have real R&D know-how, but the market for C tenors is just not there to justify investment.
Forgive me if this all sounds very negative and I love my Martin C sax as much as others in this thread. However, I don't see the two major players required: money and expertise. The toughest thing to find out if there is market to sell more than a couple of dozen instruments. With plenty of C melodies still selling at $200 to $300 it is going to be a difficult introduction.

[saxmong]

On the subject of bore size, one of the things I like about my C mel is the way the high register cuts thru like an alto but the bottom end purrs like a tenor.
I think the wider bore would do less cutting and more purring.
Great for tenor converts but less great for versatility of playing and more work for smaller beginners of whom I think the greater proportion of buyers will eventually be.
Just my thoughts!

[ukebert]

'eventually'...

[ssleb]

I have a comment regarding this C-sax thing. Why can't we just teach the sax differently from now on. For example, a new sax player will learn the fingering for G as F and F as Eb and so on. The sax's normal range would be Ab to E (or Eb). Wouldn't that make more sense, as we will have the tenor, soprano, and bass in C, and the sopranino, alto, and bari in F? Sure it will cause a conflict of generations, but in the long run, it will limit the problem of design with a C-melody, and will save future saxophonists the trouble of transposition. Just a thought.

[Martinman]

I have a comment regarding this C-sax thing. Why can't we just teach the sax differently from now on. For example, a new sax player will learn the fingering for G as F and F as Eb and so on. The sax's normal range would be Ab to E (or Eb). Wouldn't that make more sense, as we will have the tenor, soprano, and bass in C, and the sopranino, alto, and bari in F? Sure it will cause a conflict of generations, but in the long run, it will limit the problem of design with a C-melody, and will save future saxophonists the trouble of transposition. Just a thought.


Wouldn't it only save half of the future saxophonists the trouble of transposition, since alto, bari, etc. would be in F?

Actually wouldn't it be less than half, since there are probably more alto and bari players than there are tenor players?

[cmelodysax]

Hmmm... Thanks Martinman, I was about to reply, no need now.

Just a bit of 'devils advocate' here, as I'm as much in favour (probably more ) of a world with a "C-sax for the masses" as any enthusiast.

But don't forget that we've also talked about targeting learners, yet the C-clarinet has been around for many years - at prices from reasonable to 'ouch' - and yet the good old Bb clarinet has continued its stranglehold on the masses, including schools. The little Lyons 'plastic' C-clari never really caught on, innovative as it was (except for using Eb clari reeds !).

I'm the only C-clarinet (as well as C-Mel & C-Sop) player that I know in this neck of the woods. As many a keyboard player has remarked to me - "Guess you don't have a problem sight-transposing ?" - if only they knew.........;) Hee-hee !

[saxmong]

I blame the teachers who can't think out side of the box!

[ssleb]

I think simplifying things for half the sax players out there would be better than not simplifying them for any. Plus, there are quite a few soprano players too. Also, if there are that many more Eb sax players, then we could have altos and baris in C and tenors and sopranos in G. What I don't get is why they called a Bb or Eb instrument in the first place, why complicate things? And not just regarding saxes, regarding trumpets, french horns, clarinets, and anythings else with nonconcert tuning.

[Martinman]

What I don't get is why they called a Bb or Eb instrument in the first place, why complicate things? And not just regarding saxes, regarding trumpets, french horns, clarinets, and anythings else with nonconcert tuning.


Making instruments in different keys does not complicate things, it makes it easier. If all instruments played in C, you would need to memorize 2 sets of fingerings for each key of sax (1 for alto, bari, etc. and 1 for sop, tenor, etc). There would be even more for mezzo sop and other odd key saxes.

The way the system works now, any sax player can alternate between alto, tenor, bari, flute, or any other straight - bore or straight bore acting (like sax) instrument.

If I remember my band director's words in Music Theory class correctly, key has something to do with the total length of the horn, and what note is produced if all the keys are closed (for woodwinds) or open position (for brass). If I am wrong, please correct me.

[saxmong]

Trumpets and trombones have long been available in C.
The teachers usually tell the students to buy a Bb because thats what they were taught on.
Bb and Eb are well represented musically on the parade ground but most sax players don't hit the parade ground anymore!
Am I right?

[cmelodysax]

Saxmong, you are right ! How many of us also play Bb/Eb section parts, as well ? I also appreciate that to have a complete range of saxes, alternate ones have to be in a key other than Bb/C (i.e. Eb/F).

Without going into reams of arguments, the original orchestral C/F saxes seem closer to sanity, and probably more suited orchestral use, but I've never seen it properly defined why they moved to Bb/Eb for other use.

Was it purely based on the fact that saxes in those pitches (Bb/Eb) had the best tonal qualities, a more robust sound ? Or the fact that so many trumpets/cornets and clarinets already existed in Bb, that one set of saxes fell into line with the Bb's, which then made the others Eb (again, similarities in clarinet family pitches) ? Anyone have any hard evidence about Bb/Eb, like period books etc., and not just theories ?

[ukebert]

To my understanding, it was that the orchestral concept didn't catch on, for musicians are a conservative bunch as a rule. However, there was a competition between a military band with saxes in, and one with only ophicleides etc. After that, bands were very eager to have saxes in their groups. Now, in a typical brass band ofthe turn of the 19th century [source, oxford guide to musical instruments], there could be the following: Post horns, Fifes, Clarinets, Oboes, Drums, Bassoons, Natural French Horns, Natural Trumpets, Serpents, Trombones, Ophicleides, Bugles, and cymbols.

However, out of these, I can't see many that were always produced in Bb at the period. I suppose that he music must have been in Bb and Eb friendly keys, so the natural trumpets and horns would have kept their Bb slides in. Then, when valves came in they were made in Bb. So by the time saxophones came in, around 50 years later, most of the band was in Bb. However, that is only a theory, and I don't have much evidence. Therefore Alan, no I don't have any evidence.

Ultimately, you get down to the question of why the oldest instruments were in Bb. That is my theory, but I don't thin it holds very well. What ever the reason, convention has conquered all since. It will be a great deal of effore to break it, but it needs to be done.

The key can be told in many different ways. For valved Brass, it is the fundamental, the lowest note that is possible to play. For the trombone, it is the note played when the slide is pushed in. For Whistles, it is the note that emerges when 6 fingers are placed doen the front. For other woodwind, it is the note that resonates when a C is fingered acoording to the fingering convention used on that instrument.

Regards,

ukebert

[Captain Beeflat]

Could it be that the early trumpets, before the tempered scale, thought that they were playing C....& the fixing of pitch, A=440, shewed that they were miles away...what they thought of as C was, in fact Bb. :) :)

[bruce bailey]

I think the Bb/Eb thing was just to be in the "band" mood.

[Captain Beeflat]

bruce......For me, "band" mood (guitar based) is playing in A, E & B...this tends to put me in "bad " mood.

[saxmong]

Up to 38 replys to "C sax wanted" so far!

I will be going to the factory next month to discuss specs!
Wish me luck!

[ssleb]

GOOD LUCK!

[ukebert]

GOOD LUCK!

[saxmong]

I'm going to the factory to discuss specs for the new Cs next month!

Last chance for suggestions?

[bruce bailey]

Bu the time this thread is done, the fingering system may have changed!
One item I may add is that if this project DOES get going, I would advise selling through a limited number of dealers who are sax experts and have a repair center. Those are the guys who really have the connection with the sax community and will give your product respect.

[saxmong]

Got any suggestions for GOOD dealers with repair ability?

[saxmong]

The new C sax design

I just got back from the factory where we discussed the new C sax production specs and time schedule. The development costs are way higher than I expected but within the realms of possibility still.

The new sax will be a narrow bore like my Conn but will be essentially an entirely new instrument.
The keywork modification will be extensive with a complete repositioning of mechanisms to enable ergonomic operation and incorporate modern advantages including high F#.
There will be an option of either straight neck or Tenor style with new octave mechanism. The necks will not be interchangeable with old Conn saxes. They will be designed to fit Aquilasax Classic mouthpieces.
The finish options will include Silver, gold, nickel, and black and some different combinations of bell and keywork. They will feature hand engraving and will have several different themes.

For other details we will have to wait and see.
Development will begin in October and production should begin early next year.

It will be a thing of beauty and easy to play!

[Captain Beeflat]

Very well done....I honestly did not believe that it would get off the ground.......is it not practicable at this early design stage to incorporate low G?......every success to you.

[richardc7167]

Steve:

Cool! Thanks for the update.

[ssleb]

Sounds great..looking forward.

[Captain Beeflat]

In my earlier posting I meant, of course, low A.

[Gandalfe]

In my earlier posting I meant, of course, low A.Which is in the concert key of A. :D

This project report is very exciting. I would have not predicted this project would have made it this far. I can't wait to see what kind of quality this instrument will have. Feel the buzz yet?

Steve, save and document the progress. Get pictures of the design work, participants, and factory. I feel a new book is in the making.

[saxmong]

I just got back from the factory where we discussed the new C sax production specs and time schedule. The development costs are way higher than I expected but within the realms of possibility still.

The new sax will be a narrow bore like my Conn but will be essentially an entirely new instrument.
The keywork modification will be extensive with a complete repositioning of mechanisms to enable ergonomic operation and incorporate modern advantages including high F#.
There will be an option of either straight neck or Tenor style with new octave mechanism. The necks will not be interchangeable with old Conn saxes. They will be designed to fit Aquilasax Classic mouthpieces.
The finish options will include Silver, gold, nickel, and black and some different combinations of bell and keywork. They will feature hand engraving and will have several different themes.

For other details we will have to wait and see.
Development will begin in October and production should begin early next year.

It will be a thing of beauty and easy to play!

Sincerely Steve.

[saxmong]

Captain,
Low A is still on the list but not scheduled for this year.
The extra development would put the cost beyond my reach.
So far!

[saxmanandrew]

My band teacher wanted me to get a C soprano...good luck with that id be interested

[saxymanzach]

My band teacher wanted me to get a C soprano...

WHY?

[bruce bailey]

The teacher is probably suffering from "Noboe".
Any idea for a price on the C yet?

[saxmong]

I'm still hoping to keep the price down around the $700 mark but the fat lady hasn't sung yet!

[saxmanandrew]

yup he was suffering a case of noboe...i think ill get a c clarinet instead, much easier to find, but im still interested in a c sax

[ukebert]

Well, the forte C Clarinet, which is the best cheaper one it seems, is around £500 [$800 ish]. Therefore the Cmel would be cheaper...

[bruce bailey]

The cheapest C clarinet I remember is the Noblet and not that cheap or easy to find. Almost cheaper to buy an oboe (pardon the four letter word).

[Pete]

$400, new. (http://www.wwbw.com/Woodwind-C-Clarinet-i99308.music).

Google is your friend.

A C melody tenor isn't a C soprano isn't a C clarinet isn't an oboe. If you're looking for an Oboe replacement, the C melody tenor isn't even a consideration: it's an octave too low. C soprano would be the best replacement, as the timbre is closer. You *could* use Bb soprano, but you'd have to transpose.

[cmelodysax]

You guys seem to be ignoring the ubiquitous - and near indestructible - Lyons C clarinet, which has been around for a while. It's definitely not a toy, as the 'endorsers' on this link prove. They come up on UK ebay at intervals, new and used.

Only downside is that the mpc takes Eb clari reeds, a request for which is guaranteed to send any small music shop into a tailspin..... But there are ways around that.

http://www.firstclarinet.com/

[ukebert]

I agree that one shouldn't use a c melody instead of an oboe; a C Sop would be better suited. However, for a [good quality? I hope] C single reed instrument, then the new cmel or the forte c are two viable options to go in.

[Martinman]

Only downside is that the mpc takes Eb clari reeds, a request for which is guaranteed to send any small music shop into a tailspin..... But there are ways around that.

Not to long ago, I went into my local music shop to buy some alto Vandorens, the lady hands me a box marked Eb, I take it home and open it, and they are Eb Clarinet reeds, I saw this long skinny reed, and thought "ok....." thankfully, I was able to get back to the shop before it closed.

[bruce bailey]

I got my Aquillasax C mouthpiece today, 9 days to Miami which is pretty good as I am awaiting a letter from CA that was sent 11 days ago. I only have alto one tenor reeds so my testing has been limited. I have not played a Morgan but I can say this Aquilasax mpc. is certainly worth the money. I found that the chamber is good and matches that of the vintage Bueschers/Conns and the tip is more in line with modern mouthpieces. If you are looking to make a C sound like a tenor, this would not be your mouthpiece. It has a warm C sound and it plays well from top to bottom on my Martinlitzer. I will pick up some bass clarinet reeds and try that route. Intonation is a bit better than the alto or tenor mpcs I have tried and I think it is as good as it can get. The only downsides I see is that the ligature is way too large (falls off with the screws on tight) and I would actually prefer a little more opening, about 2.2mm would be fine. Thanks for a nice finishing touch for my horn(s), Steve.

[Robaldo]

Why is the C melody not currently produced?

Surely it makes more sense musically than the transposing Bb. Is there some physical reason why it's never made it?

[cmelodysax]

Bruce/Steve et al. - I also recently received an Aquilasax C mpc & lig, plus some custom #3 'C' reeds. Due to an arthritis flare-up, I've only done a limited amount of testing (certainly nothing I'd care to record for posterity) on late'ish Martin and Buescher C-Mels, but results are excellent if you want a more modern version of the traditional 'C' sound - without the horrible taste and closed lay of the original mouthpieces...

Here's part of my email to Steve -

(quote) - "I've tried the mouthpiece on the Martin, tests still ongoing, and also on a '25 Buescher. I'd have no hesitation in saying that good intonation should basically be there on any C-Mel - with the caveat that the sax itself has to be set-up properly. But without a sensible (and realistically priced) mouthpiece, its always a 'chicken and egg' situation, so one of your new mpcs should be in every C-Mel case, especially at the 'student mouthpiece' price !

Your reeds are interesting, not managed to blow one in fully yet, but the #3 is well hard enough for me, and I normally use 3's or MH tenor reeds on medium-to-open tenor mouthpieces. I may even try a temporary baffle mod to see if I can get some more edge - but as it is, the mouthpiece is responsive excellent for general use, or for producing the authentic sound with a more relaxed embouchure" (end).

* * * *

I've also put a link to Steves 'new C-Mel' announcement on my website, with a full page about it (and Aquillasax) to follow. It be useful if any of you with websites or blogs could also include a link, any publicity/interest that helps the project would be useful - I'll even give you the link.....

http://www.aquilasax.com/C-melody_Tenor.html

[BandMan]

The C melody is not currently produced due to:

Low consumer demand from ingrained traditions..."progress is the root of all evil" type of thinking.

[bruce bailey]

I will try to get the Buescher working soon and I will buy a Conn straight neck to try the mouthpiece on those too. What is really scary, Cmelodysax looks like me!!!

[cmelodysax]

What is really scary, Cmelodysax looks like me!!!

Bruce, you have my sympathy.......... Then you must also look like Wade Walker (WW2), because he looks like me ! But, be grateful you just look like me, and hopefully don't feel like me at the moment.

What is a bit annoying, is that (maybe from a lifetime of playing 'older' saxes etc.), I also have arthritis in my left wrist and right thumb, as well as the normally afflicted joints. I've assumed that's because the ergonomics of some vintage saxes left a lot to be desired, especially for players (like me) with smaller hands/fingers - pity they sounded so good !

Not exactly an 'off-topic' comment, because with a modern C-Mel, the key layout may well be slightly 'user friendlier'............ Certainly I've found that instruments I've latterly tried, which have come out of the Orient, seem to usefully suit a wider range of hand/finger sizes.

[saxmong]

The C tenor production ceased in 1935 when the great depression bit.
Bb and Eb saxes continued for marching bands in wartime.
After the war a combination of cheap Bb and Eb, record players and electric guitars took away the manufacturers will to restart production.
Then Japan began to compete.
Now the cost of production is scary!

And ingrained tradition keeps it that way!

until now!

[saxmong]

Oops forgot to mention!

In 1935 there were no saxplayers in church.
Now there are litterally millions of churches with bands led by piano or guitar players, and the sax players problem is now finding transposed music or doing it in their head on the fly.

Thats why C makes sense!

[Pete]

You guys seem to be ignoring the ubiquitous - and near indestructible - Lyons C clarinet, which has been around for a while. It's definitely not a toy, as the 'endorsers' on this link prove. They come up on UK ebay at intervals, new and used.

Only downside is that the mpc takes Eb clari reeds, a request for which is guaranteed to send any small music shop into a tailspin..... But there are ways around that.

http://www.firstclarinet.com/
Actually, never heard of it :).

I think, however, I'd spend the extra $70 to buy the Woodwind horn and get a "real" mouthpiece and additional keywork.

[cmelodysax]

Saxpics - well, you have heard of it now - you can get them a lot cheaper than the $330 listed on the website. I just mentioned it because somewhere back in this thread was mentioned the scarcity and cost of a C-clari ?

They were/are aimed at real youngsters, but I think the message that was being put across on the website - endorsed by well respected classical & jazz players (well known this side of the pond, I should say....) - is that they're definitely not a toy.

A new C-mel probably won't be totally ideal for the very young 'starter' players either, just that little bit too big for most of them ? Despite all the 20's ad's showing kids in short trousers and cloth caps playing them....... But then weren't short trousers worn almost up to manhood in that era ?

I can still very much see a place for the Eb alto in teaching situations, just because of its size, but then when it comes to playing in the teens/early adult years the growing sax player will realise there is another (non-transposing) option available, which won't need him/her to add two or three sharps to the key signature when he/she jams just for fun with his/her mate on guitar/piano in the bedroom/garage.

That seems to be the modern version of the 20's 'parlour' boom - isn't life all about choice :?

[Gene]

How about a C -melody soprano instead of a tenor shaped is it not closer and more practical for musicians would it be in the same range as the oboe but more difficult to make because of intonation?

[spiderjames]

Would the new cmel be a complete redesign? I have often thought that a redesign of the horn with some R&D into bore size/length and key placement could result in a very useful sax for modern players. I would be interested in one for sure and would pay the higher price tag necessary to get one that compares to other modern pro horns. If it was just a copy of a 20's horn with no only ergonomic changes I think it would miss the mark. I think A really well developed C melody could be marketted very easily to rock and blues players with success. It would need to have most of the problems corrected and compare intonation/playability wise with its alto/tenor compettitors. Which brings up another issue. It may be viewed by manufacturers as competing with horns they already have in the market place. competing with your own line is a no no with the bean counters.

[Doug Lange]

Playing contemporary christian music, I don't play the melody but rather fills, which makes transposing easier. A C sax would be interesting, though.

[BlueSapphire]

i would be interested, if i can get some cash, but is that figure australian dollars or what? how much would shipping to australia cost from where they're being made??

[64sax]

I am on Steve's list also.

As a guitarist interested in woodwinds, I think the Bb/Eb thing is perceived as a significant limiting factor in the minds of those interested in playing sax that currently play concert pitch instruments, and also the main reason the sax is now such a rarity in the contemporary broad "pop/rock" scene.

I have been actively participating in music forums since 2000, and have been very very active on several guitar/bass forums, and also run a small forum myself. It seems to me that there is a significant minority on those forums that are interested in doubling on other instruments. Many play other strings, keys and/or drums/percussion already.

Most male guitarists think that lead guitar is the sexiest instrument that gets all the ladies, but I’ve always thought is was the sax player that got all the ladies. Whenever I am lucky enough to see a rock sax player these days, it is pretty clear that he is the centre of most people’s attention. As we all know, sex sells, and what folks think as sexy sells and draws people in. That’s been a big part of the ongoing appeal of the guitar.

I think there’s a real chance for a renaissance of the sax in the contemporary broad "pop/rock" scene, but I also think a concert pitch instrument is inextricably linked to such a renaissance. Unlike in the saxophone’s heyday, apart from electronica, the driving instrument of contemporary popular culture is the guitar. And instruments that readily fit in with guitar, bass, drums, and keys are the biggest sellers.

I don’t think it would take too much for C-sax to amass more interest in the minds of youth than bass guitar. There’s always a shortage of bass players, and I think it’s because it’s perceived as such a backroom instrument and not at all sexy.

If there was a readily available C-tenor of equal quality with the best student horns at an affordable price, ie, comparable to what the best student horns sell for second-hand, I’d be surprised if there would be much resistance from the rock-oriented sax teachers.

I’m also in Steve’s neck of the woods, and down here, I think a C-sax that sells at or under NZ$999 would sell quite well. That’s currently just a little under Steve’s proposed US$700 mark, but this is a relatively weak “Western” market, and there’d obviously be much reduced shipping costs for Steve’s local market.

Anyway, if early reports of the new C-tenor from seasoned sax players are good, I’ll be almost definitely buying one.

As far as options, I would think it good to offer the option of having both neck types. I wonder how much production costs would increase if the saxes simply came with both as standard?

[64sax]

I'd also be similarly interested in a C-soprano.

[saxmong]

All quotes are in US $ and it's about $100 for shipping.

http://aquilasax.com

[BlueSapphire]

thats still cheap, now to convince my parents...

[saxmong]

I have just got back from the second visit to the factory that will make the new C mel.
The development date has been postponed until November but a new replacement straight neck for vintage C mels has already been tested and may go into production next month.
My website has new pictures of the octave mechanism and my favourite finish option.
http://aquilasax.com

[hgiles]

Still got some cash earmarked for this thing. Looking forward to it.

[Gandalfe]

Will there be an option to purchase both neck styles for the instrument or will you just go with the one? It sure looks pretty. Intonation will be a big factor for me.

[ukebert]

Steve-

First, really like the look of it on your website, silver body n' gold keys was always my favourite.

Forgot to ask, the original cmel had an irregular bore, e.g. cmel neck, alto bell etc. This caused the sometimes irregular intonation, the more accentuated mouthpiece dependency and the 'stuffy' sound [I think thats right]. Does your new model have a [more or less] constant bore, or does it follow the original shape?

Good luck again,

ukebert

ps I've got an aquilasax mouthpiece as well, and it is well worth the money. The sound just opened up compared to other modern cmel mpcs.

[ssleb]

ukebert, I think saxmong has said it earlier, and has posted it on his website that the reason he's going through with this project is because the old C-Mels were made that way and nobody bothered to fix them. These new ones are supposed to be made from scratch, not borrowing anything from any other class of saxes. I'm really looking forward to these C-mel's and hoping for their prices to be within my college-student budget.

[Captain Beeflat]

I have spoken recently to two non subscribers to this site who have expressed interest in this new horn. The number of those who have emailed you probably bears little relationship to the number of subsequent buyers. A market is invariably larger than anticipated.
Were the horn to incorporate Bb tenor bore/length ratio and low A, then I also would be a buyer.......underslung octave rocker is, however, very sexy!

[Martinman]

The number of those who have emailed you probably bears little relationship to the number of subsequent buyers. A market is invariably larger than anticipated.


underslung octave rocker is, however, very sexy!


I disagree. A lot of people might say that they are interested, but will not end up buying. As we are now learning in Economics class, demand is caused by those who have the want and the means, not just the want. I have the want for a C-sax, but not the means of purchasing one.

Also, a market is not "invariably larger than anticipated." The Nova (car) never took off in Mexico like it did in the US, and was expected to in Mexico.
(Nova can be loosely translated as "no go" in Spanish, hence the lack of purchases). At least that is the story my Spanish teacher told me a few years ago, it could be completely wrong though.

I am not trying to put down the hopefully up-and-coming C-sax, just trying to play devils advocate or whatever...


I completely agree on the octave mech though. Underslung = sweeeeet.

[Captain Beeflat]

Surely somewhat naive to believe that economists are invariably right. When the photocopier was first mooted in the UK, the Economists projected total sales at about 4000....one for each firm of solicitors!

[rhysonsax]

Really interesting thread and I'm all for a new design and ergonomic C melody, both tenor and soprano. I'd love to add them to my collection of saxes that has just grown to something like 20 with buying a Vito C melody from the 1960s.

My Vito horn is shown on the seller's website http://www.simplysax.de/Vito.htm (thanks Anke / Mo) and it looks great. It's supposed to arrive next Tuesday and I'm really looking forward to playing it and comparing it with my Buescher and Conn C melodies. It was built by Beaugnier in France in the 1960s with fairly modern looking keywork. Does anyone else have experience of the Vito ?

I'm interested that the new C melody is going to be a fairly narrow bore, like the old Conns. Don't players find that these can sound a bit soft and polite ? My Morgan mouthpiece makes the Conn play well in tune, and it has helped make a more modern sound - but I can't think of it as a Rock sax at all.

Good luck with the venture and add my name to the list.

I'll let you know how the Vito sounds when it arrives.

Rhys

[Martinman]

Surely somewhat naive to believe that economists are invariably right. When the photocopier was first mooted in the UK, the Economists projected total sales at about 4000....one for each firm of solicitors!


Exactly my point, there is no way of exactly knowing how many C-mels will be sold, if any at all. (although hopefully many)

[cornific]

Really interesting thread and I'm all for a new design and ergonomic C melody, both tenor and soprano. I'd love to add them to my collection of saxes that has just grown to something like 20 with buying a Vito C melody from the 1960s.

My Vito horn is shown on the seller's website http://www.simplysax.de/Vito.htm (thanks Anke / Mo) and it looks great. It's supposed to arrive next Tuesday and I'm really looking forward to playing it and comparing it with my Buescher and Conn C melodies. It was built by Beaugnier in France in the 1960s with fairly modern looking keywork. Does anyone else have experience of the Vito ?

I'm interested that the new C melody is going to be a fairly narrow bore, like the old Conns. Don't players find that these can sound a bit soft and polite ? My Morgan mouthpiece makes the Conn play well in tune, and it has helped make a more modern sound - but I can't think of it as a Rock sax at all.

Good luck with the venture and add my name to the list.

I'll let you know how the Vito sounds when it arrives.

Rhys

i wanted to buy mo's cmel but i am so broke! by the time i had figured out financing the it was gone ... sold. Rhys, if you want to pass it on please pm me i. as i am interested in the vito still if you find that it does not satisfy you.

it will be nice to see a new c melody.

i would put in a vote for a more modern bore on the new project. IMHO it makes sense to bring the concept up to modern specs. i would be interested in getting a new one in the future if things pan out. i am watching this thread with interest. is it possible to get it made from decent brass so that these new cmels aren't suffering from the less resonant brass effect that i have experienced wiith some otherwise fine horns that i have play tested in the stores

i have a conn straight neck and an old martin stencil, so i have some small bore horns already. these are still projects that i hope to get flying before next summer. my winter rebuilding fun. :)

[saxmong]

The new C sax will be fitted with resonators so the mouthpiece will be your main limiting factor.
I am getting some new metal mouthpieces developed now.
Hopefully available next month.
Rock, jazz or classical, the choice will be there.

[Martinman]

The new C sax will be fitted with resonators so the mouthpiece will be your main limiting factor.
I am getting some new metal mouthpieces developed now.
Hopefully available next month.
Rock, jazz or classical, the choice will be there.

Any chance of getting Selmer to make a C* for C mel? That would be pretty cool.

[Captain Beeflat]

Martinman.....Many C Melody players use Bb tenor mouthpieces with great success.....just clap on your Bb tenor Selmer C*, you may well be surprised.

[Dave dix]

I clap on my lawton 7b and it takes the paint off the walls (conn c mel)
Dave

[Martinman]

Martinman.....Many C Melody players use Bb tenor mouthpieces with great success.....just clap on your Bb tenor Selmer C*, you may well be surprised.

I figured it would, but wasn't sure of intonation issues, etc. Wouldn't it be better to have a "real" C mel C* anyway?

[bruce bailey]

I agree that some Tenor mouthpieces will "work" on a C but so far I think a real C (like my aquilasax) mouthpiece is still a better choice. A tenor mouthpiece tends to make the C sound too much like a tenor.

[Captain Beeflat]

Bruce...Of course you are right...that is if you prefer the sound of the traditional C Melody & play an appropriate style.
I, & many others, prefer to use the C Melody as a dinky tenor, & the Bb tenor mouthpiece fits the bill in most cases. My Buescher TT is pretty well in tune with any of the following tenor mouthpieces :- 125/1 Berg, 6* Otto-Link STM, Jody Jazz ESP, Doc. Pillinger "Slant Sig" copy & an 8* Colletto........probably many more also.
Were I to play the C Mel as it was intended, then I would probably choose to start with a dedicated Morgan C Mel piece.....all the original C Melody mouthpieces that I have tried, also the modern Windcraft, sound so stuffy with their small tip opening...perhaps this is how they were intended to sound! :)

[bruce bailey]

I understand. I have not had too many intonation issues with using a tenor or alto mpc on a C. Where I have a problem is response, mostly in the RH and upper palms. Since the bore is so small on a C, I find that the Alto mouthpiece (S-90) seems to fit better than a Tenor one. Maybe I could call it a large alto!

[saxmong]

there's a new Aquilasax metal C mouthpiece being developed now!
Aiming to improve volume while retaining good intonation.

[bruce bailey]

And the price is? What will the tip opening be as I think about .085 or higher would work well.

[Randall]

saxmong,
I too would suggest having several facings available if possible.
.085 would be very closed for some players, like myself.

Thanks!

[saxmong]

saxmong,
I too would suggest having several facings available if possible.
.085 would be very closed for some players, like myself.

Thanks!

The new metal mpc is to improve volume so the 1st batch will be #7 @3mm tip opening. Aquilasax hard rubber mpcs are #5 = 2mm tip opening.

I think #7 is the most popular tip opening for many experienced players.
We'll see if we get any calls for other sizes.

I personally am happy with #5

[bruce bailey]

That would be about a .117" which is pretty open for a tenor! I still think aobut 2.2-2.5mm would serve the C well.

[saxmong]

Bruce,
Your luck is in! The factory are happy to make any tip size so
I'll get some #6s as well.

The Sax factory have sent me the first batch of replacement straight necks for neckless Conns and are working on replacement curved necks now.

[bruce bailey]

Let us know when you get the mpcs and what is available. There is a Conn C on ebay US missing a neck. May be worth a look. I still think there is a market, maybe bigger than the C Melody, for a C soprano. Great church horn and would be a joy to have in the car for quickie sessions with anything musical. Make it a full pearl while you are at it as mother-of-plastic should be pretty cheap.

[cmelodysax]

Maybe there'd be an even bigger market for a modern curved C-Sop ? Dinky little case too.......... Bell points straight to heaven ;)

[Gandalfe]

Bruce,
Your luck is in! The factory are happy to make any tip size so
I'll get some #6s as well.

The Sax factory have sent me the first batch of replacement straight necks for neckless Conns and are working on replacement curved necks now.Is there any chance a tenor neck would fit on a straight neck c mel and the intonation still be okay?
Maybe there'd be an even bigger market for a modern curved C-Sop ? Dinky little case too.......... Bell points straight to heaven
Now that'd be cool.

[Grumps]

Anyone else here see a train wreck on the horizon?

[danarsenault]

Yes, Grumps. Peace, brother.

[Grumps]

Thanks Dan. Just checking.

[cmelodysax]

Hello Grumps, I'm warming to you. You remind me of a man wearing "The End of the World is Nigh !" sandwich boards.......:lol: Always the voice of reason, raining on our parade again ?

==========

Gandalfe - if you mean does a "real" tenor neck fit a s/neck C-mel - the tenon is too big, as the C-mel neck socket is similar to alto size, and the length/volume of the tenor neck is too great (which you probably know already...) But curved (tenor-style) and straight C-mel necks are pretty much interchangeable (with one caveat)`. I've a Conn C-Mel that I use with a Buescher C-Mel (stencil) curved neck that plays perfectly - for Grumps I'll add "within the recognised limits of C-Mel intonation" - the sound becomes more gutsy (tenor'ish) and there is a little more playing resistance, plus obviously the playing position changes to 'high and close'.

The caveat is that neck tenon/socket size varies even amongst Conn C-mels, and to a greater degree across the whole range of C-Mel manufacturers. Slight enlargement of either neck tenon or socket may well be required (ptfe tape sometimes makes a good temporary fix) - but I totally applaud Steve (saxmong) for a sensibly priced replacement for Conn micro-tuner C-Mel necks. Well done Steve.

[Grumps]

Well... now that I'm here... I was just wondering who's putting up the capital to make these things?

[saxmong]

I am,
I believe in the C mel and am putting my limited resources where my mouth is.

I've used both straight and curved necks on the same sax, no prob.
However my Holton neck is a micron wider than the Conn, so a little cork grease (or thread tape) would be neccessary to stop squeaking at low end.

Buescher??

[cmelodysax]

Grumps - saxmong / Steve from NZ is already producing C-mel mouthpieces, gig bags, and replacement Conn straight necks with curved necks to follow - courtesy of a factory in Taiwan. (With many satisfied users, including me - plus probably other things I've missed)

And, from his regular informative postings, here and on other C-mel forums, the new C-Mel is at the 'factory drawings' stage. We've all been polite enough not to ask Steve if he's doing this purely as an entrepeneur/enthusiast, or if third-party finance is involved, that's his own business - but more power to him for actually DOING something, not just waffling - like so many of us............:argue3:

The curved C-Sop is just a pipe-dream, but then so was a modern C-Mel until Steve came along.......:thumbrig:

*** Sorry Steve, just seen you were posting as well ! Hello.

[cmelodysax]

saxmong - you asked about Conn neck interchangeability with Buescher.

I have a Buescher (190K) and several Buescher stencils, plus a Conn s/neck (105K) and PanAm Conn stencil to hand. The following results are far from scientific, but I suspect that a Buescher C-mel will need it's neck socket opened slightly to accomodate the slightly larger Conn neck tenon.

All the Buescher necks fitted the Conns, but did require a turn or two of ptfe tape on each to make a snug fit. The Conn s/neck (and the loose tenon from the Conn c/neck stencil) would 'start' in all the Buescher sockets, but not go all the way in (I didn't want to use force, obviously). So the Conn neck tenon is a little oversize for Buescher C-mels, the Buescher neck socket needs opening up just a tad..

Only a few thou in it, the sort of job that any good tech would do quickly and cheaply. To put the thing into perspective, the cost of your C-Mel neck (from the 'underslung' one I've seen on ebay) plus a quick visit to a tech or decent engineer is way way way less than any custom neck.

To complete the picture, I tried the Conn s/neck in my '31 martin C-Mel - the Martin seems to have one of the biggest C-mel tenons (confirms the 'big-sound/big-bore' theory) - and it was a loose fit. A little ptfe tape did the trick, so, again, a quick/cheap trip to a tech to expand the neck tenon would suffice.

Again, to put things into perspective, I suspect that most of us with vintage saxes would benefit from having a tech (or qualified engineer) look at our neck/socket fitting after decades of wear - how many of us have had to give the neck screw an extra 'tweak', or 'adjust' the slot on the socket, or resort to ptfe tape on the tenon, etc ? So it would make sense to have any new neck fitted to an old sax properly, for the full length of the tenon, however good it feels. But we just struggle on, 'cos we're enthusiasts, and we live with those sort of challenges...........;)

( P.S. I know this should be in the 'Repairs' section, but, far away from any tech help, I once fitted a slightly oversize neck (tenon) to a tenor sax with careful use of 'lapping' paste. The sort of stuff used to seat valves in motor engines... Why ? A drunk plus a 4x12 PA speaker make a lethal combination, missed the tenor body but got the neck - but the club had a knackered wall-hanger tenor with a reasonable neck, lucky or what ??? )

[Grumps]

Well, "Steve" is here promoting a commercial venture. He won't say who he is because he's worried about spam (?), but I'm hoping that anyone that has ordered products from him know who he is. That would at least be a good sign. Regardless, in my opinion, he's either doing this to make money, or he's insane. Statements such as this might have me believe the latter:

I think a new standard style C mel has the potential to take over the student market.
However, the cynic in me suspects the former. So if it's money to be made, well... at first he said he didn't have any to invest. Now he says he's using his limited resources. Well, he must be, because so far there's only been about 40 takers when 100 are needed. And hey, how many of those folks do you think are actually going to shell out $700 (if that's even still the amount in question) when push comes to shove for what probably is a Chinese horn? What kind of quality are you expecting for that price? And yeah, it is China, right? Will Steve divulge where they're going to be made? It just worries me when a marketer comes here anonymously to promote a product and asks for e-mails to provide specifics. His own website doesn't state who he is. Has anyone been asked to put down a deposit? At some point, that has to happen. Otherwise, to expect you good folks to plunk down your money when the horns are ready... well... if this deal is legit, to me that's financial suicide. They'll end up on Ebay for less than the vintage ones are going for.

[cmelodysax]

Grumps - Steve isn't here "anonymously", his email address is on the first posting, and you seem to have found his website.......... I know exactly who he is, as do others who have dealt with him. Has he asked for any money "up-front" yet ? No.

I have no connection with him, save a common interest in C-Mels, but what sort of crusade are you on ??? First you slag off the 20's C-mels, now you're putting down the new ones before they're even made, and (imho) even hinting at some kind of scam. Cut the guy some slack.

Your profile is empty, no location, no website, no picture, nothing, nada, zilch.....

Come on down, Grumps, tell us who you are ?

[Randall]

Being a bit less of a cynic would be nice Grumps....leave the legal briefs at work.;)

I am, for one, really interested in Saxmongs idea, and impressed with his enthusiasm and optimism.
I do not think that he is being overly optimistic, but because he believes in what he is doing, then he is willing to take a chance. I can buy into his vision in many ways.
I think he can sell 100 of these at a decent price to the praise band crowd alone. Also, the idea of a modern C mel for students is an idea that I personally like. So many of the kids I end up teaching want to play popular tunes that there is no transposed music for. If they could play any tune they could find guitar or piano music for, I dare say they would be more likely to practice more. I see a direct relationship between the time spent playing and the ability to improvise in all my students- the more comfortable and familiar they are with their horn, the easier improvising becomes.

The one thing about a C mel that I think is often given lip service to, but never really thought about too deeply is the jazz enthusiast/hobbyist market and the use of fake books and the like. So much of this stuff is written in C and would be directly accessible to someone with a C mel. It would also make jamming easier for those who cannot transpose. How many times has a hobbyist or non-transposer been presented with a C leadsheet (of an unknown melody) from the guitarist in your band and told, "lets do this tune!"?

Like it or not, want to admit it or not, the overwhelming majority of non-professional players, hobbyists, etc.... cannot transpose worth a hoot, if at all (apologies to those who can).

I have a Martin C mel that I love, and I want to use it more than I do, professionally and in the church praise band. The main reason I don't play it more is simply the intonation and tone don't leave me as happy as I want to be.
I am not ashamed to say that I am not the greatest on the spot sight transposer when it comes to playing an Eb horn.

I anxiously await these horns.

[Martinman]

It would also make jamming easier for those who cannot transpose. How many times has a hobbyist or non-transposer been presented with a C leadsheet (of an unknown melody) from the guitarist in your band and told, "lets do this tune!"?


Wasn't this what the original C-mel was made for? Jamming with Grandma playing the piano in the apartment?

[Grumps]

Yeah, then Grandma died. The horn followed.
And cmelodysax, when I'm selling something, I'll be sure to introduce myself.

[saxmong]

Grumps,
I do not ask for money until I have recieved and tested the product.
That'll be next year!
I offer money back to unsatisfied customers! Can I do more?

If you want to check the quality out, buy one of my altos and see for yourself.

As to your other remark: insane?
Financially insane... guilty!

I guarantee a few collectors will buy them just because they may not be available for long.

My belief is for better than that.

[Grumps]

Good luck to you then, though I think you'll lose your shirt on this one. If you really want to bring back the C Melody, I think you'll have to fully understand why it failed; and that's not easy. Take the soprano for instance... it fell out of favor early in the 20th century and wasn't revived until a leading artist, Coltrane, picked one up and recorded with it. Did it find its way into school band rooms, charts, orchestras? Not really. How 'bout today? Well, we all know who's making the soprano popular again, but is it enough to change modern musical arrangements? No, it's just taken its place as the voice of smooth jazz. I think that for any rebirth of the C Melody, it's going to at least take a player of some stature, who can top the charts playing one. With the established voices of tenor, alto, and now soprano, in today's music, I'm not so sure anyone is going to be interested in doing that. I mean seriously, these horns failed for a reason. They were marketed to folks for their ease of play (or ease of transposition, really), but could this have been why they failed? I mean... learning an instrument takes work. It takes dedication. Already the ones this horn was aimed at were looking for short cuts; and those folks generally aren't the ones that keep playing.

[danarsenault]

A bit of a difference with Grumps here. There are soprano parts in lots of modern jazz big band music, Thad Jones for instance. I don't think there will ever be the same impetus for institutional buying for C mels. Don't get me wrong. I own a pre-1920 TT C mel and I think it is a hoot. It plays very nicely with a JJ tenor piece. I don't think, however, that I would get on the list for a new one. I think there are pleny out there for folks like me who really want one.

So you say surely there must be market for 100 of them? I wouldn't risk any of my capital on that. Lots of people here say they are interested, but the only test will come when it comes time to put money where the postings are.

[rabbit]

Naysayers, you are a disappointment. Your dismissive
comments disserve a guy (& the wind community)
who appears to be making a constructive, affirmative
saxophone initiative at his own risk. If he fails
so be it, no need to encourage his failure.

Critical I think are the quality and intonation
of the horn, and, Saxmong's marketing.

[cmelodysax]

Steve/saxmong - to return to practicalities..... I take back my comment about Martin C-Mels having the biggest neck tenon. I tried a Conn C-mel s/neck in a King C-Mel (and that rare beast, a King C-Mel Stencil...) - and the King neck socket is even bigger than the one on Martin(s) !

(So) For King C-mels, a sleeve may well be needed.

Just to complete the picture.

[Al Stevens]

Take the soprano for instance... it fell out of favor early in the 20th century and wasn't revived until a leading artist, Coltrane, picked one up and recorded with it.
I disagee with that. Sidney Bechet had a lot to do with it long before Coltrane.

Did it find its way into school band rooms, charts, orchestras? Not really.
Kind of chicken and egg. It wasn't found in the literature often enough to justify having students take it up.

I think that for any rebirth of the C Melody, it's going to at least take a player of some stature, who can top the charts playing one.
That's true of any music-related product. A lot of players wouldn't stoop to touch a wind synth until they saw Brecker playing one.

They were marketed to folks for their ease of play (or ease of transposition, really), but could this have been why they failed? I mean... learning an instrument takes work. It takes dedication. Already the ones this horn was aimed at were looking for short cuts; and those folks generally aren't the ones that keep playing.
Agreed. Which might be why horns such as the Buecher Academy didn't permeate the market. Although I'm not sure whether the Academy was marketed as being easier for a new sax student or just a less expensive alternative to determine whether the kid's interest would light up.

[cmelodysax]

Al - I think saxes such as the Buescher Academy and the Martin Home Model - with their reduced key-sets - should just be put down as a quirky idea that didn't quite hit the spot. Maybe the idea was not to confuse students with too many keys - whatever, it was a silly idea. They pop up on ebay from time to time.

I've a Martin Home Model kicking around that I just love asking smart-*** sax players to "get a tune out of". As soon as they start playing and realise it doesn't have side Bb or C keys they panic. Strange sax, goes down to bell C, but doesn't have a bell C#, missing the note out entirely.........??? Then chromatic (with a few quirks) for almost two octaves up to C# - but no palm D, Eb keys etc. - for those who don't know the saxes.

Just bad news for the 'C' movement that they were in C (at least the Martin was, can't confirm whether the Buescher was) - another stick for the C-haters to beat us with.

[Grumps]

I disagee with that. Sidney Bechet had a lot to do with it long before Coltrane.
That would have been before it fell out of favor in the timeline I set up.

[cmelodysax]

Hey Grumps - this is not the Soprano section.......:?

Unless of course it's a C-Soprano ! ;)

[64sax]

In my humble opinion, if Steve can manage to keep the C-saxes in his catalogue for a few years, I can envisage him building a small but ongoing niche business selling to the guys that play in church and the guys that want to play in a contemporary pop/rock band. And yes, to students who specifically want to play in the latter environment.

The problem I see with the sax regaining more popularity with top-40 groups is that its regular Eb/Bb nature means that the instrument is seen as a predominantly jazz/big band instrument with such players being called upon for the odd contemporary recording, which is then likely played live on another instrument. For instance, Marsalis' sax part on Sting's Englishman in NY when played live is usually played on trumpet.

I come from the guitar/bass world, and I have loads of music/tabs for piano/guitar. All my current opportunities for playing are with C instruments, and I guess I think in C. I have always been attracted to the sax, and almost always enjoy it when sax and other horns are incorporated into pop/rock tunes. Apart from transposing the odd 3-chord tune, I am not contemplating playing a transposing sax live, even though in the pop/rock scene you can get away with being a very limited player, as long as you play within your limits. I do, however, look forward to getting one of Steve’s C-tenors sometime next year, and would be willing to put down a deposit on one if so required.

If you want contemporary pop/rock players to pick up the sax as a second/third instrument, I think you need to remove the barrier, whether perceived or real, of the sax not being in C like the rest of the instruments in the line-up. It’s as simple as that.

Getting the word out, of course, in another matter. That’s why I think if Steve can manage to keep C-saxes in his catalogue for a few years initially, a niche business will develop.

Do I think C-saxes will ever play a significant part in jazz/big band? Probably not, but for top-40 and Christian-contemporary music, I can foresee a significant resurgence of the sax should C instruments of acceptable quality be readily available on an ongoing basis.

[Al Stevens]

That would have been before it fell out of favor in the timeline I set up.
Previously...


...[the soprano sax] fell out of favor early in the 20th century...

How early is early? Bechet first recorded in the early 1920s and continued to record and perform successfully into the 1950s.

[Grumps]

How early is early?
When people stopped listening to him... or he died.
Happy?

[bruce bailey]

I think he died in 1959. One thing tha thwarted his recordings is that he moved to France years before.

[kavala]

I just don't understand the need for this horn.
The existing horns cover the range nicely.

What are you getting ???

Only the ease of playing off a concert pitch chart.
Big deal.

On tenor or alto, so what if you have to play in a different key
to the rest of the band ??

Jeez, I mean, c'mon you guys. How hard is that ????

[rabbit]

kavala,

I notice you own two horns. Isn't one enough?

What is so fearsomely objectionable about these horns
to some folks? People want them, that's need enough.

[saxmong]

Just got an email from Nathan Haines,
Most of his recordings are Bb but his favourite horn is his 1923 Conn Artist C mel.
Recorded one song on it (title eludes me at present)

By the tenor of the posts, C rocks (the boat)

[saxmong]

The title of the song in C is "just maybe"

[hgiles]

I see an advantage to the C sax. A lot of groups have no idea what a transposing instrument is. Church groups, rock bands (if you're lucky) just start shouting out chords in concert key then I have to transpose this to numbers (I-IV-V) and then back into my key.

When I've gotta learn a tune in a hurry from someone that doesn't know theory well enough to explain the tune then having a non-transposing instrument helps a lot.

I can fake a tune by just knowing the overall key, but I don't want to do too much faking if I can avoid it.

I am anxiously awaiting this C sax!

[Al Stevens]

I think he died in 1959. One thing tha thwarted his recordings is that he moved to France years before.
Bechet moved to France in the 1920s but returned to the USA in the early 1930s and had some hit recordings. He didn't move back to France until twenty years later, where his recordings were very successful. That move enhanced his career and did not thwart his popularity at all.

More than any other player, Bechet established the soprano saxophone as a viable jazz instrument.

http://www.redhotjazz.com/bechet.html

[Al Stevens]

When people stopped listening to him... or he died.
Happy?
Do you mean whichever occurred first or last? Bechet died in 1959. People have not yet stopped listening to him.

[Al Stevens]

I just don't understand the need for this horn.
The existing horns cover the range nicely.
I sometimes make a similar, albeit tongue-in-cheek, argument against playing altissimo. Why bother? Just pick up a different sax.

Only the ease of playing off a concert pitch chart.

Not just charts, but head tunes, too. Improvising musicians become accustomed to the keys in which music of their chosen genre is typically played. That's only natural. Because I play C, Bb, and Eb instruments regularly, I am comfortable in most keys in which standard and jazz tunes are written.

But occasionally I play in a country, blues or rock band in which guitar players play in the few unfamiliar keys. Something in E. for example. puts me in F# on tenor or trumpet. It's not impossible, it's just unfamiliar. Other players might have more or less difficulty. I think that's a situation the C-Mel was intended to address. It didn't prevail as a popular sax perhaps because there just weren't sufficient numbers of crossover players to ensure its success and because band charts weren't written for C saxophones.

If an affordable C-mel is made, I will buy one.

[Grumps]

Do you mean whichever occurred first or last? Bechet died in 1959. People have not yet stopped listening to him.
Why are you even arguing? I said early 20th century the soprano fell out of favor. Without stating as such I meant some time after Bechet was big, but didn't know the exact date; but they stopped making sopranos in as high numbers sometime around then. Was it early 20th century, or would early-middle have been a better way of putting it? Who cares. You know what I mean.


If an affordable C-mel is made, I will buy one.
You can find affordable ones any day of the week on Ebay, and of course we all know that modern horns just don't stack up to those of a more vintage flavor. And no, you'll have to work on your own timeline for interpreting what modern means...

[cmelodysax]

64 Sax - well said. Like you, I don't think the C-Sax will necessarily appeal to a player who has a tenor and alto racked up. I got thro' a lifetimes playing (some of it pro) and there were occasions where I had to sight-read over a keyboard players shoulder in a small band/combo/group.

Often then I chose flute so that I could concentrate most on the music, and not the effort of transposing - which I can also do, so I'm not musically-impaired....

So I suspect Steve's 'niche' product will appeal to those, like me, who've recently "found" C-saxes and find them useful - rather than an easy way out.

All this stuff about "no music written for them.." is fine, we know that, but there are circumstances, e.g. in a small band where the guitar/bass/keyboard/vocalist/fiddle/whatever are all in C, and that's where a C-Sax (with flute) lessens the need to always be in a different key than everyone else ! We do make life hard for ourselves sometimes...........

[Al Stevens]

I said early 20th century the soprano fell out of favor...

And you further said, "and wasn't revived until a leading artist, Coltrane, picked one up and recorded with it..."

This isn't about a timeline. That just evades the issue and turns it into a game of "he said, he said." I apologize if I contributed to that. I simply disagree that Coltrane is responsible for reviving the soprano. It was already well established due to Bechet who brought it into favor as a jazz instrument about the time you say it fell out of favor, and who recorded and performed with it successfully into the 1950s.

I'm not sure when Coltrane started playing the soprano, but other players were playing the soprano in the 50s. Ira Sullivan is one example. Coltrane didn't discover it. He just took it in the 1960s where it hadn't been before, redefined the instrument in jazz, and was indeed the preeminent player of it during his all too brief era.


You can find affordable [C Melodies] any day of the week on Ebay
None close enough yet for me to go test play one. There are a couple of tempting Bueschers on now, but you never know how much money it will take to make one of those ebay vintage horns playable. I'm hoping this new horn, if it comes to be, will find its way into some nearby dealerships.

[Grumps]

I simply disagree that Coltrane is responsible for reviving the soprano.
That's fair enough, but I don't know too many sax players that could name a soprano player between Bechet's time and Coltrane's; and that is when companies stoppped making them (or made them custom orders). Either way, I wasn't out to slight Bechet in any respect.

[cmelodysax]

Hello Guys, this is for C Melody Soprano, Contralto & Tenor !

Lots of room in the Bb Soprano for you to exercise your intellects......

[Al Stevens]

Along those same lines, I'm trying to think of a jazz player other than Bechet who is known primarily for playing soprano. Does KG fall into that category? No, of course not. He is not a jazz player. Sorry. :D

Tram played C Melody and is the only high-profile name player who was known primarily for that, unless I'm just forgetting somebody. We might never have heard about him if it hadn't been for his association with Bix. He was also a test pilot and eventually left the music business altogether. It doesn't bode well for afficianados of the C-mel that its only famous name abandoned the profession.

[Grumps]

Hello Guys, this is for C Melody Soprano, Contralto & Tenor !
Well, if you were keeping up, earlier I made a parallel between the decline of the C Melody and decline/rebirth of the soprano; focusing primarily on factors that may have kept the soprano viable, while spelling doom for the C Melody. Mr. Stevens was simply having me clarify a point within my argument, and it was by no means an attempt to make this anything other than a sanctuary for C Melody discussion.

Carry on...

[saxmong]

Got the song name and an address this time!
Just maybe , myspace.com/nathanhaines

I think many name players would sometimes use a C these days if they could find one with modern keywork.
Swapping over to old and clunky can be hard work.

[Al Stevens]

Lots of room in the Bb Soprano for you to exercise your intellects......
Yeah, I guess intellect is wasted on C Melody players. Sorry. :D

[rabbit]

Interesting C-melody link:

john-robert-brown.com/c-melody-saxophone.htm

[cmelodysax]

Al - don't notice a C-Melody in your setup, you could do with a couple - they make a fine trombone stand if you take the neck off........

Intellect ? Intellect didn't save you guys from Dubya. At least I got you and Grumps to put the words "C Melody" in your last postings. ;)

rabbit - yes, interesting article, I've read it many times, if only for the fact that Mr Brown isn't prejudiced against the C-mel , indeed he seems positively upbeat - but I think his subtle humour would go over the heads of some here... He's British. and it shows, click on Articles - there's more interesting stuff, he's an accomplished author as well as a musician..

[Grumps]

After reading that article, I just can't stop imagining all you guys in a phone booth...

But on a serious note, have you all decided on the engraving for the new C Melodies? I'm thinkin' a Pied Piper theme...

[BandMan]

As an amateur church saxophonist, I would buy a modern C melody sax (sop and/or tenor) in an instant.

I hope that this effort is successful.

Some of the vintage C melody saxophones that I have seen, looked pretty bad. It would be too risky to buy such old horns.

[cmelodysax]

Have all the doubters and "C-Mel knockers" gone away ? Is it safe to come back.........? :)

[danarsenault]

Have all the doubters and "C-Mel knockers" gone away ? Is it safe to come back.........? :)
LOL! I'm neither. I love my 1920ish TT C Mel. I spent hours and hours restoring it from black. It is pretty and plays very well. I just wonder about the business proposition here.

[acti0n_jacks0n]

This is an excellent idea. If I had $700, I would definately take the offer. Maybe we could convince our good ol' friend Mr. Eppelsheim to bring back these dead horns. I mean, he has done it before. Well, until I get money, good luck to you on your mission to bring back these horns!

[saxmong]

Thank you!
Meantime it looks like the new replacement necks are going to be popular.
Can't wait to get the curved ones!

http://aquilasax.com

[Connical]

I would buy one. I love the idea of creating more interest in C -Mels .

Toobz

[saxmong]

The new C sax R & D team have informed me that they have done the 1st test model body and bell but the new key work is giving them a headache and I should not expect much before Feb.

Pity it takes so long but glad they are being careful!

[rabbit]

"C-Mel knockers"

:)

An engraving reference?

[cmelodysax]

Yes Rabbit, like the Conn engravings - I couldn't resist the pun.... Glad to see someone is on the same wavelength. ;)

Saxmong - anything too easy is usually suspect. R&D isn't an exact science, look at all the Microsoft OS release date 'slips'....... Thanks for keeping us updated, gives me a chance to sell a few more bits to afford a new 'un.

[rabbit]

cmelodysax,

Thanks, can't say anymore, this is a
"G-Rated" forum and besides, my 10M
is the jealous type.

[stuka]

Put me on your list for new CMels as well :-)

What I would like to see on it is the Holton right-hand high-D key. Love that key :-)

Also, what about a re-introduction of the Fmez as well?

:treble: :line0: :space1: :space3: :line5:

[ukebert]

I think the Fmez will have to wait, the c sop should come before that. Any plans for that Steve?

[saxmong]

More of a dream than a plan but
It's on the list.
I'd like to see how the C tenor goes first.
So far so good!
I got the 100th email expressing interest last week so now all we need is an actual sax.
Development is painfully slow!
However, if they are as good as my other saxes, I'll be very happy and I suspect a C soprano will not be long following.

[cmelodysax]

Steve - I posted on the other forum that I'm beginning to see a small trend where a 'Bb/Eb' sax player will be interested in (and even buy) a 20's C-Sop, whereas may not be bothered about a 20's C-Melody.

That's until your 2007 model C-Mel/Tenor comes along, then it's anyones guess....... Good Luck.

[ukebert]

I got the 100th email expressing interest last week so now all we need is an actual sax.


Excellent news Steve.

[michaelbaird]

I have 2 Buescher TT Cs both with the front Fs. One needs pads but the other roars! I use a tenor D7 dukoff on it without any problems, intonation is fine. However, I have yet to play it in a club. I would love to have a more ergonomic C melody sax, that is my primary issue with it.

[saxmong]

Just checked the new c sax prototype for intonation and comfort.
Needs some adjusting but the factory manager is confident that we'll begin production in June.

[hgiles]

Awesome -- can't wait to get my mits on one! So how is the intonation and comfort?

[ukebert]

Yeah, spill the beans!

[saxmong]

Intonation is great!
Comfort needs work which is why they are adjusting!
Looks like metal resos standard fit.

Roll on June!

[ukebert]

Intonation is great!

:)

[Pannonia]

Hi Steve,

I am sitting on needles until June to get one of these finally.
Also, I am still interested in stocking basic parts for US customers.

Tamas

[Pannonia]

Been just browsing the pictures over at Steve's site. Anyone noticed the removable bow for easier of servicing? Niiiiiiiiiice.

[Captain Beeflat]

I see a removable bow/bell as yet another potential leak. It is hardly likely that the interfaces will be flanges pulled down onto sealing "O" rings.

[cmelodysax]

Just to advise that my Aquilasax Alto just arrived, Steve/Saxmong has kindly sent me one to check out in advance of the Aquilasax "C" production, and first impressions are very favourable. I've initially started a thread on the 'Bravenet' C-mel forum. Wade has hinted that he may have to ditch the old C-Mel forum, due to “Invasion of the SpamBots !”

I will also be posting results to my blog, and will put up a formal web page, once I start really evaluating and have taken a few photo's. Here is the link, which may or may not work, the new forum seems to have its quirks, like all others……

http://pub6.bravenet.com/forum/431465883/fetch/851041

Regards, Alan.

[Pannonia]

Thank You for that preview Alan. It is reassuring to read that it did not arrive as a DIY kit.

Cheers,
Tamas

[cmelodysax]

Tamas, no, I really am impressed - I've been playing the alto most of the afternoon (latterly with the metal mouthpiece Steve supplied) - and the only other (not even really a) problem I've come across is an occasional slight reluctance for the spatula aux-front- key to fully spring back. Only happens when going to/from certain notes, probably didn't show up on test-play, chromatic scale is fine.

I won't even try to adjust that for the minute, as I suspect it'll loosen with a bit of playing. The 'fit' of the action is extremely close, not a touch of slackness anywhere. To put the thing into perpective, you probably wouldn't get the most basic student alto in the UK for double the $450 price of this one - unless you try the risky ebay 'lucky-dip' route.

I've taught enough kids to rate the Aquilasax as very close to the basic Yamaha alto, which is a lot more expensive. Anyway I'll stop now before I get told "this isn't the alto forum..." ;)

Here are some pics of the Aquilasax alto from the same factory that will be making the new C Sax -

http://www.cmelodysax.co.uk/aquilasax/alto.htm

[cmelodysax]

...and I've had a quick toot whilst checking that my PC can still record.

Follow the "Blog" link below, and the sound link is in the first topic - Aquilasax alto sax review. Feel free to comment.

If the new C-Sax is built as solidly, and plays anything like the alto, well.........;)

Alan.

[Captain Beeflat]

May we please have a comparison with your Martin alto? Same set up.
Initial impression is that it sounds good. How does it handle?

[ukebert]

Sounds good Alan! I agree with Bb that a Martin comparison would be very interesting.

[cmelodysax]

Sorry guys - time is a bit tight this week, but I have some slack next week, so keep checking the blog.......

Are you two following me ? :?

[michaelbaird]

I'm getting excited about this horn too! I was wondering what I've commited myself to, but if it looks like the picture on the website and plays well...this is going to be just way too cool. This will make my 5th c-melody, 2 are wall hangings.

[cmelodysax]

Just to advise that I've published a review of the Aquilasax alto (coming, as it does, from the same factory as the new C Sax will...) which is liberally sprinkled with comments about the new Aquilasax C Sax. It's at -

http://www.cmelodysax.co.uk/aquilasax/review.htm

And the info page about the new C Sax is still at -

http://www.cmelodysax.co.uk/aquilasax.htm

Regards, Alan.

[Pannonia]

Hi Alan,

Thank You for putting the effort into testing the alto. Many instrument fabs in China have decades of experience, fostered craftsmanship, and now turn out great instruments. They will only get better at it with time.

Now if I could just try that new C-Mel!!!

Cheers,
Tamas

[ukebert]

Well it won't be long now...

[Pannonia]

Well it won't be long now...

Just got an email from Steve with some very encouraging news on the schedule. :D

[cmelodysax]

Pannonia - yes, I'd just love to be a 'fly on the wall' in that factory ! May be of interest to you that I actually decided to buy the Aquilasax alto that I reviewed (http://www.cmelodysax.co.uk/aquilasax/review.htm).

As a man renowned for having short arms and deep pockets ;) that is indeed praise. Although I'll still have all my earlier horns, it'll be useful to have a playable alto with the same modern 'feel' (I'm assuming..) as the new C-Mel.

[michaelbaird]

Thanks for the review Alan. I consider it a good endorsment that you bought the alto. Now I'm rethinking what kind of finish to get; I might get nickle instead of bare brass.

[ukebert]

Well? It's June...

[cmelodysax]

I'm sure Steve (Saxmong) won't mind me passing on some relevant info from our emails.

"Very shortly Steve will be going to the factory, where they will have a few finished samples ready for him to check before they complete the production run."

I find this continuing emphasis on quality control quite reassuring.......

:thumbrig:

[ukebert]

Haha, just checked my old account:


The production of the new C sax has already begun. The factory has already produced 100 bodies and bells. They are working on the keys now. This puts the finish date ahead a little and they are likely to be finished before the end of June.

I will personally check each horn before sale so it may be early July before they are ready.
I will get the website ready for sales next month.
I have had enquiries from 163 people but have only 100 saxes coming so it will be a case of first in first served, as finish options allow.
There will be more produced but they may not have paua shell thumb rests as on this initial batch.

Looking good...

[saxmong]

Sorry,
We didn't make the June date.

The production began in June and they currently have completed all the parts but have not yet assembled any as they were waiting for confirmation from me on the finishing details and engraving style.
It will take them a week or three to get the first batch ready assembled and plated etc.
Due to the US Dollar depreciating it cost more than expected but I'll keep the basic gold lacquer version at $700 and add expense for optional extras. Details and new pics on the website.
I expect to have them ready (play tested) in August.

[cmelodysax]

I've added Steve's latest pictures of the 2007 C Sax - it's a lovely looking instrument - to my 'Aquilasax' page. Steve (saxmong) is quite a modest chap, but I've made the new pictures BIG...

http://www.cmelodysax.co.uk/aquilasax.htm

(in case you wonder, the pics are of {both} gold lacquer and black nickel finishes...)

[LoVeTheBlues]

I'll be checking this new c melody out!.......................

I have a recording of Soul Eyes in my Sig below...........1920 Buescher C Melody............Great sound for this song!

[SearjeantSax]

i cant wait for them to come to the UK!

[markb]

fascinating idea. :)

makes me wish I had an extra 700 laying around. :)

I think I'll break out my old Cmel when I get home today after reading this.
After all it's the horn that brought me back to music after taking 20yrs off.

high time I went back to it.

I wish you good fortune with your Cmel sales and who knows, perhaps
I'll be able to get one myself in a while.

mark

[cmelodysax]

SerjeantSax - currently you can only buy the new C-Sax direct from Aquilasax NZ (http://aquilasax.com/C-melody_Tenor.html) - I've got one on order, so as soon as it arrives (realistically early Sept) I'll post a review and some sound samples.

I see you're using the Zinner on your tenor...:)

[SearjeantSax]

hi,

the tenor zinner absolutely smokes!!!!
and the adjustable baffle really works, i use it in all combinations of ways,

the alto one is just slightly too open, and im trying to find some softer reeds that work well on it, the harmonics are totally effortless on both!
i cant thank you enough!

[markb]

*sigh*
my busted finger still can't handle the key action for g# and low B :(

guess I'm stuck with flute for a while longer.

In any case, I admit to enjoying reading about this dream that y'all are
making into a reality. :)

mark

[cmelodysax]

SerjeantSax - Try the alto zinner with the lig clamp in different positions, that's supposed to adjust the lay a bit, as well as the other slider adjusting the tone. Anyway, back to the new C-Sax (http://www.cmelodysax.co.uk/aquilasax.htm)...

[SearjeantSax]

yer lol, thanks anyway though!

[sax rookie]

I have been eavesdropping on this thread in anticipation of the new C-sax coming out.

The last I read was it would be available for sale in August.

I haven't heard any *new* release information lately and I wondered if there were any updates on this?

Thanks

[cmelodysax]

sax rookie - I seem to be following you...:)

As far as I am aware, completion of the first production run was scheduled for the end of August (about now), after which the new C-Sax will be available thro' the website - see Steve's website ( Aquilasax.com (http://aquilasax.com/) ) for latest details.

Obviously as soon as Steve releases new info, I add it to the page on my website - http://www.cmelodysax.co.uk/aquilasax.htm

Must be getting close now...

[saxmong]

Still waiting for them to arrive...
Maybe next week!

Meantime I've added a new shopping cart to the website with a nifty function that lets customers register their interest in out of stock items.
https://aquilasax.3dcartstores.com/Saxophones_c_1.html

[Randall]

I will go ahead and spill the beans...
The first 20 horns have arrived at Aquilasax!

Can't wait!

[cmelodysax]

Well, as Randall broke the news, I might as well add to it - has no-one noticed the first Aquilasax C- 'Special' on ebay (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/New-C-tenor-saxophone-Aquilasax-Collectors-special_W0QQitemZ200152899232QQihZ010QQcategoryZ10 184QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem) ?

- in case the link doesn't work, it's item 200152899232 :)


Just to remind you all, this Thread, and Steve's project, started on the 25th of March - last year !

[mosplace]

Wow, what a nice horn! Can hardly wait, till I will get mine. Hope it will look as beautiful and more important, play beautiful and in tune :).

Congratiolations Steve!

[cmelodysax]

I've put up links to all Steve's latest pictures, and the ebay Aquilasax C, plus the latest, latest, latest pics at -

http://cmelodysax.co.uk/wpblog/?p=31

[mosplace]

Has anybody already received one? Just got a mail today from Steve. Mine is on it's way!!!

Cannot wait, cannot wait, cannot wait...... It will take a while till it arrives in the "old world". I ordered a silver plated one with golden keys. Just like the old ones. I'm so excited. Hope it will arrive here in good shape :).

[Randall]

Mo,
Looks like 4 more days to wait for me here in Japan...should be about the same for you too!.
I ordered the black nickle one....:D

Say when are you gonna lend me those Steamers to try?

[bradshawm]

I know there is a lot of information spread throuhout the thread, but it is all in bits and pieces, and I could not lock onto answers for the following questions:

1. What does it come with regarding a mouthpiece?
2. Does the Aquila sax mouthpiece require a C-mel reed, or does it use a tenor reed?
3. Are the saxes listed on the web site actually in stock or on order?
4. Are they already spoken for, or are the ones listed for sale on the web site open for purchase to the first person to place it in the shopping cart?
5. Outside of modern keywork and finish options, what other modifications were actually made to the sax?
6. Which vintage C-mel does it end up sounding like when it comes to tonal core (Conn, Buescher, Martin)?
7. Are there recordings posted somewhere for both the sax and the mouthpieces?


Thanks!

[ukebert]

I have to wait, I'm not being paid till the end of the month :(

[ukebert]

I know there is a lot of information spread throuhout the thread, but it is all in bits and pieces, and I could not lock onto answers for the following questions:

1. What does it come with regarding a mouthpiece?
2. Does the Aquila sax mouthpiece require a C-mel reed, or does it use a tenor reed?
3. Are the saxes listed on the web site actually in stock or on order?
4. Are they already spoken for, or are the ones listed for sale on the web site open for purchase to the first person to place it in the shopping cart?
5. Outside of modern keywork and finish options, what other modifications were actually made to the sax?
6. Which vintage C-mel does it end up sounding like when it comes to tonal core (Conn, Buescher, Martin)?
7. Are there recordings posted somewhere for both the sax and the mouthpieces?


Thanks!

1. I think it comes with the bog standard Aquilasax mouthpiece, which is decent for the price.
2. I've tried it with both, it seems to work fine. There'll be the inevitable bit sticking out obviously with a tenor.
3. There are 20 in atm, mostly silver.
4. hmm I've put my name down for one in advance, I rather think it depends on finish.
5. Different shape, crook is slightly shorter I believe. Key holes re calculated I think, or at least refined. Little screwy things from time to time.
6. Nobody knows yet :p
7. Not yet, but just wait till Alan gets his hands on one of them...

[michaelbaird]

I just sent a confirmation with the shopping cart but not sent any money yet. I've decided to go nickle silver. I don't know whether I will order a mouthpiece. I use a D7 tenor Dukoff with a 3.5 plasticover reed on my Buescher C, and that has the sound I'm looking for. I don't want a mouthpiece that will be a struggle to find reeds that I like for it. I've lost the enthusiasm for struggling with horns.

[Gandalfe]

I have to wait, I'm not being paid till the end of the month :(And I have to wait for the lacquered horns to come in.

[cmelodysax]

So do I for mine, but then, these things cannot be rushed... After all, it's been a while since a new C Sax hit the streets - just to put things into proportion ;)

Don't forget, there's always the one on ebay (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/New-C-tenor-saxophone-Aquilasax-Collectors-special_W0QQitemZ200152899232QQihZ010QQcategoryZ10 184QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem) :)

[saxmong]

I have recieved 20 new C saxes which means production has been established.

I am working through the list of people who put in their order first to match up horn finishes to customers.

Most are already spoken for!

I am not including a mouthpiece as the production costs were hegher than expected but I didn't want to raise the price.
Add to that , most of my customers already have a favourite mpc ...

Happy to add an Aquilasax mpc to the bill and reeds!

Thanks for your patience!

Any unclaimed horns will go on the shp cart.

Cheers

[ukebert]

Someone bid on it!

[Captain Beeflat]

Well...the first bid has been placed. With the final run of last second snipers, the market price will, to some degree, be established. Let us hope that you who have placed orders are sitting on a bargain.

[rleitch]

Well...the first bid has been placed. With the final run of last second snipers, the market price will, to some degree, be established.

It will be very interesting to see what the market does say about these new Cmels. At $800, the new one is about equal what it would cost me to buy and refurbish an old Conn or Martin.

Great looking sax--I hope it works out for everybody and I can't wait to hear some clips

Cherry Pink and Apple Bossom White anybody?:)

Rory

[cmelodysax]

Someone bid on it!

Big sigh of relief, now I don't have to, although those Paua touches would have matched the colour of my eyes......:)

Two bidders now !

[Captain Beeflat]

Alan...Are you certain; Paua is blue. Surely you were thinking of Garnet. :-)

[mosplace]

I thought the first 100 all have the Paua key touches. Or am I wrong?

[Randall]

Mo, I think the left hand thumb rest on all the first production run are Paua shell. The other pearls are regular pearls unless you ordered one with all Paua shells.

That is how I understood it, anyway.;)
Mine is held up in Customs in Tokyo now...probably Tuesday or Wednesday before those lazy sots in customs get off their duffs after the holiday weekend.:x

[cmelodysax]

I thought the first 100 all have the Paua key touches. Or am I wrong?

Mo - As far as I know the first 100 have (blue) Paua LH/octave thumb rests and normal 'touches' on the main action - but the one on ebay has Paua touches on the front as well, except for the G# (as far as I can tell, just by looking ay the pics... I must learn to type faster ( I made a coffee, mid-post) so I notice Randall just said that as well.

Randall - I'd be very happy to say that mine was 'stuck in Customs...' :cry: I only hope that "those lazy sots in customs" don't read this forum :shock:

But then, I do still have to gently break the news to my Martin, I hope he's not going to feel left out, when the new one arrives.... I think he's old enough to understand ?

[Randall]

But then, I do still have to gently break the news to my Martin, I hope he's not going to feel left out, when the new one arrives....


Me too. I hope mine doesn't take it personally....:D

[ukebert]

Whoever gets it first, please comment, record, photograph etc. etc. etc. :)

[milandro]

oh yes! I bet there are lots of people just waiting for a review before ordering :)

[cmelodysax]

oh yes! I bet there are lots of people just waiting for a review before ordering :)

Hmmmm - almost makes me relieved I didn't get one of the first ones - Mo, have you got yours yet ?

[ukebert]

I'm on the list, and I'm getting paid at the end of the week :) Not long to go before I can start the 3 week wait to get it :(

[64sax]

<answered my own question>

[mosplace]

Nope! It will take a while, I guess. From the States it takes 2-3 weeks. So I think it will be the same, from New Zealand. I will let you know, as soon as it is here.

[Captain Beeflat]

For those of you with an eye to the main chance...you have made a profit already...judged by the selling price of the eBay horn!
Roll up, Roll up...place your orders now before prices rise. :-)

[cmelodysax]

I see the one on ebay nearly reached a grand ($'s), if you include the Metalpro. Well done Steve, and the buyer was registered in the UK !

Mo, the alto from Steve took just a week to to physically get to the UK, but then Customs, and how the duty is paid, is the hold-up. In the UK now, we can't just pay the delivery man any more - we have to wait to find out how much it is by post, phone up to pay, and then arrange delivery (yawn....)

'Bucking' the system (as usual) I phoned the local Parcelforce depot when tracking told me it was there, and a nice lady told me how much it was, and took a credit card number - saving the time it takes for a letter to get here. (remember that if you live in the UK, it takes days off the delivery time)

[ukebert]

Wow, a decent price on that eBay one Steve :)

[mosplace]

Well, here it is similar Alan. It takes 7-10 days until it will reach customs. Than it takes again 3-6 days until I get the notification from the customs office, that there is a package for me.
I have the luck, that they know me, so usualy I will fax them the invoice, they do the customs clearance and send me the box and a customs invoice.
But in the case of my new babe, I will pick it up personaly, that saves me 3-5 days. Since that is the time, it woult take until they deliver it.
So every day I check my mailbox and pray that the customs slip is in there :)