Neck Manufacture

[mzeemwalimu]

Greetings. I asked this question a long time ago, without finding an answer, so here goes again. The neck on my 102xx tenor really seems to be a very thin wall casting, rather a sheet-metal fabrication. It weighs 175 grams, which seems a lot more than normal. Does anyone have first or second hand knowledge of how these were made, really? I hope, in the coming year, to do some experiments along these lines (using lost wax), but it would be nice to know what has already been tried, and what works. Any ideas?

[Bodhi]

You didn't mention the make of horn, but I saw your SML Tenor listed on ebay with the serial number mentioned so, My former SML tenor of same era had a problem with the neck. The next brace looked like it was a battering ram and dented the area just above the connection. I didn't think of it as thin walled but now that you mentioned it, seems like this is an area of fault, or isolated issue. Why the concern now that your selling it???

[mzeemwalimu]

To answer in reverse order: my concern is that if I can gain some technical data, I would like to add it to the ebay listing, for the benefit of bidders. 2. Far from being a weakness, I am asking for comment on what I think is an un-recognized important feature of post 10xxx Tenors. If this is so, I think it fair to promote it. 3. I used the term "thin-wall" with the word "casting". The thinnest casting you can think of is stronger than the normal sheet-brass stamping used on most horns. I hope this clears up any misunderstanding. Thanks for the space, mzee.

[Sax Hut]

>The neck on my 102xx tenor really seems to be a very thin wall casting, rather a sheet-metal fabrication.<

How did you reach this conclusion? Does the neck still have its lacquer coating? Can you not find a brazing seam?

[mzeemwalimu]

to wind.miller. Exactly so. There is no lacqer on the neck except the octave key (easy to clean, hard to clean) and even the gold is almost completely gone here, but there is no trace of a brazing seam, neither on the outside nor the inside. I have just now taken some pics, but realize I don't know how to send them. Can I add an attachment to this note? If anyone can tell me where to forward the pictures, I would really value comment and discussion.
Thanks, mzee.

[Sax Hut]

I had a look at the auction and notice you say the horn is plated. Plating will hide the seam. The notion that SML (or any sax maker) used casting technology to form necks is a bit unusual, given that sheet brass tubing has been the norm. I weighed the neck on my gold-medal stencil. It's 161 grams; 14 grams is a half-ounce and significant, but can be explained easily by the use of a slightly thicker gauge of sheet brass for the tubing or heavier bar stock for the octave arm, reinforcement brace, or tenon.

[Dr G]

The thinnest casting you can think of is stronger than the normal sheet-brass stamping used on most horns.

Not true. Thinwall castings tend to have columnar grains that span the thickness of the casting and make the the part very susceptible to cracking. I did some investigations on mountain bike racing crashes and found this to be a flaw in some very expensive "racing" parts. Once the steering stem cracked in a crash, the resultant piece left in the steering head looked (and acted) just like an apple coring tool.

Tubing, in contrast, can have a strong texture (orientation correlation between members of the polycrystal ensemble) than makes the part reasonable strong and elastic (meaning that it can bend and rebound without permanently deforming).

[mzeemwalimu]

You're right, of course, my statement was too broad and generalized. Once one says 'casting' you open the door to a huge number of variables, from choice of metal alloys to post casting heat treatment, and a lot in between. One reason I persist in my opinion is that looking very closely at the inside of the 'dorsal' area, beyond the tenon, there is an uninterupted texture, fine, but definitely a texture that suggests the fingerprint of a molding core, and not the appearance of worked metal, as in a pressing or stamping. And that this slight texture shows no discontinuity where the seam would have to be. Before I ship this horn, I will take a whole raft of photos, (as good as 4Mpix will produce), and if there is the interest in the forum, I'll post them to whatever is the appropriate location.
Cordially, mzee.

[Sax Hut]

But have you compared with other, plated necks? The inside is plated as well, hiding the seam. I should add, on the inside of the lacquered-brass neck for my 23xxx gold-medal stencil, the seam is clearly visible, running straight along the bottom of the neckpipe.

[Dr G]

One reason I persist in my opinion is that looking very closely at the inside of the 'dorsal' area, beyond the tenon, there is an uninterupted texture, fine, but definitely a texture that suggests the fingerprint of a molding core, and not the appearance of worked metal, as in a pressing or stamping.

One reason I persist is that the texture you describe is common to rolled sheet that has had a recrystallization anneal. ;) Further, if it is due to final sizing and forming on a mandrel, it would get an imprint from the mandrel's surface as it is beat with a mallet.

[Sax Hut]

Out of curiosity (talk about time to kill.....), I weighed some other tenor necks. FWIW (not).

A B&S blue-label tenor neck weighed 170 grams.

A The Martin weighed 220 grams (of course, we know why -- it has its neckscrew hardware mounted on the tenon).

Most old (1920s) Conns I have here range around 135-140 grams.

Several Bueschers run around 150-160 grams.