V16 vs ZZ

[badfella518]

In comparison to strengh, durabily, and tone(dark,bright,warm, cool, etc.), how is the vandoren ZZ. I've tried V16s and found them bright, but great reed.I just wanted to get some opinions about the ZZ before i buy them.

[Jbroad572]

In comparison to strengh, durabily, and tone(dark,bright,warm, cool, etc.), how is the vandoren ZZ. I've tried V16s and found them bright, but great reed.I just wanted to get some opinions about the ZZ before i buy them.
The ZZ's are brighter and usually half a strength softer than the v16.

[dirty]

My experience with ZZ's and V16's has been that the V16's run about 1/2 strength stiffer than ZZ. The V16's give a fat, full, bright and warm sound. The ZZ's are very similar, but seem a little thicker and darker. I like them both, but right now I am playing ZZ after using V16 for a few months.

[Joe Jazz]

I found the V16's to be louder and to have a less complex sound(better for rock and roll and straight ahead jazz) and the ZZ's to be warmer and have a more complex sound(better for smooth jazz, ballads, etc.)

[JL]

I've played both of these reeds and concur with those who say ZZs are a bit darker and about 1/2 strength softer than V16s. I also find that I get more power, volume, and "endurance" (they last longer) out of the V16s. For these reasons, and because I play mostly blues/funk, I play the V16s.

[Mike Ruhl]

I just got my first box of ZZ tenor reeds. I've been playing #4 V16s for two or three years now, and was curious about the differences.

First off, I find the other comments on V16s interesting. Some people find them to be bright reeds, others think they're dark and woody. I think how they play for you depends on the strength you're using. I've never played the V16s in anything less than #3.5, and #4s have worked out great for me.

Anyway...here are my initial thoughts on the ZZ/V16 comparision (clipped from another forum (http://p2.forumforfree.com/miker.html)):

Played for about 30 minutes with a Vandoren ZZ #4 last night. Nice reed - played great right out of the box, after soaking in a water for about 5 minutes or so.

Lots of people have said the ZZ is softer than a V16 of the same #. I'm not sure I'd say the same thing (no surprise there, eh?).

There's a difference between using "softer" - or rather, more flexible - cane stock, and inducing more flex via the cut of the reed.

It seems logical to me that Vandoren would use the same cane stock to make both the V16 and ZZ reeds (and likely the Java as well), and that the only difference in them is the way they're cut.

I seem to recall reading, either on the Vandoren or the Rico website, that the strength/flex rating of the cane stock is done BEFORE the reeds are cut.

I don't think they simply take a bunch of cane stock, cut it into the various reeds, then rate the strength of the individual reeds. If they did it that way, then it stands to reason that all the #4 reeds would feel about the same, regardless of cut.

So I think what people are noticing is the difference in the cuts.

More later...

[JL]

Mike, it may be the difference in cuts. But I wonder if when you get up to #4 reeds, things change. I've never tried a #4 V16, since the 2.5s work so well for me. I can say with confidence that a 2.5 ZZ seems much softer to me than a 2.5 V16, but maybe it evens out more in the harder strengths.

[Mike Ruhl]

JL - I've pondered the same thing. It tempts me to order some #2.5s in both cuts, just to see how they play compared to the #4s.

I still have about a dozen old brown-box #2.5 Ricos, that play very nicely. Every now and then I slap one on, just to remember how it feels. It would be intersesting to compare them to some #2.5 Javas, ZZs, and V16s. But I get so much more out of the #4s, that I've never bothered.

[JL]

It would be intersesting to compare them to some #2.5 Javas, ZZs, and V16s. But I get so much more out of the #4s, that I've never bothered.

I hear ya man. Life's too short...... Maybe I should try the harder reeds, but on my .115 RPC, I seem to get the best sound where I'm at now.

[CircaRevival]

Anyway...here are my initial thoughts on the ZZ/V16 comparision (clipped from another forum (http://p2.forumforfree.com/miker.html)):


Hey Mike, I guess that thread is gone? By the way, I joined your forum for no reason at all. :?

[badfella518]

Thanks for all the coments. It seems that most of you think the zz is softer. I can tell you that i definetly know that the v16 is harder than the trads. But in reality it all comes down to personal preference, huh? I find that the v16 and lavoz read are very similar.

[CircaRevival]

I use ZZ's on tenor. I've never tried V16's, but I do prefer the ZZ's over the Javas and the Traditionals.

[Mike Ruhl]

Hey Mike, I guess that thread is gone? By the way, I joined your forum for no reason at all. :?It seems to be dead at the moment. Oh well, what do you want for nothing? ;)

btw, I created that forum for no reason at all, so welcome aboard. Mostly it's just me and Bill Mecca discussing nothing.

[Bill Mecca]

If I remember correctly, the V16 has a thicker tip, and American cut, ala Phil Woods (when he endorsed them), so that might account for the slightly stiffer feel... of I could be completely wr...wr.... wro... might not be right.

:thumbrig:ayyyyyyyyyy:thumbrig:

[Mike Ruhl]

V16s are thicker from tip to vamp, although the Vandoren literature says the Traditional has a thicker heart section. With the ZZ, they basically took a V16 and flattened it out some. They kept the thicker tip.

I'll see if I can find a digital version of the print ad that shows the differences in the cuts. If I can't find it, I'll scan it and post it.

Found the following out on the Vandoren website:

http://www.vandoren.fr/en/images/SAXREEDCURVES.JPG

http://www.vandoren.fr/en/images/SAXREEDSKELETONS.GIF

[barelytone]

Thanks for the diagram. Does any one know why Vandoren chose to have the shoulders of the tips of these reeds cut differently than the Blue box? Is it designed to match one of their mouthpieces, maybe?

[Mike Ruhl]

I dunno. I've wondered about that myself. The tip shape of the V16 and ZZ reeds actually matches that of the La Voz reeds (I've compared them).

So another way to look at it is why do the Javas have a different tip shape from the V16s and ZZs? The answer may be as simple as the Javas were the first reed other than the Traditionals that Vandoren produced, so the tip shape of the Javas matches that of the Traditionals. When they designed the V16 cut, they probably tried to match the La Voz tip shape. The ZZ is simply carrying that design forward.

Really the ZZ is just a tweaked V16.