Another "P" Convert!

[Mark R]

I just received my P. Mauriat 66R Tenor sax yesterday courtesy of Dave Hoskins at Junkdude.com. The horn played fairly decent straight out of the case but felt to me kinda dark, quiet and I was struggling with the low Bb. Took the horn to my tech today. He had to do some adjusting/regulating in addition to having to move the low C key, replace that pad and also reseat the palm key D pad. He also had to loosen the bell brace and get the bell/bodytube in line so that the bell keys were lined up. These are not uncommon things needed when a horn has been shipped.

Once he got all that happening. VaVaVoom this kitty was purring and this lion was roaring! I am as picky as they come when it comes to horns. I am a certified vintage horn snob. I actually had lots of reservations when I got this horn. I had tried the Nickel Silver model and it felt sterile , I was not all that impressed with it. Hey, different strokes different folks.

So Dave suggested I try the Custom Class 66 models before counting P. Mauriat out, told me they are a very different sounding instrument. Was he ever right. After this horn was tweaked I can play anywhere on the horn and there is a great tone core regardless of whether I am playing altissimo, low, mid range. Throughout the entire natural (and unnatural:twisted: ) ranges this horn performs with finesse and little effort. Just the right amount of resistance too. I am very impressed with both the 66R and Dave's service and advice. This horn is a true joy to play.:D :) ;) :thumbrig:



These are an outstanding instrument. Best sounding brand new horn I think I have ever played. I am elated, this P. Mauriat is the best of both worlds offering great design, ergonomics, intonation yet giving a great well seasoned sound and tone core. Very powerful without being bright, harsh or shrill. It is like a cross between a MKVI and a great old Conn.

[Russ]

Hi Mark.

I have been very interested in checking out the PM range, but alas, they are rare in the UK at present.

I am pleased you like your new horn, but I am struggling to decide - With the work you had done to a new horn, is this a good review, or a bad one ?

Please, I'm not being picky or awkward as I have never played, let alone owned a PM. However, I have played and owned many many other makes, so replacing pads on a new horn and adjusting the bell brace? Not on !!

I really am genuinely pleased you are happy, but if I purchased a new horn and I had this work done, I wouldn't be very happy :cry:

[BigZ]

Congrats Mark! I'm glad you like it. I was wondering if you got one yet. Mine needed a little work too, but I'm very satisfied. Enjoy!

[Jbroad572]

Hi Mark.

I have been very interested in checking out the PM range, but alas, they are rare in the UK at present.

I am pleased you like your new horn, but I am struggling to decide - With the work you had done to a new horn, is this a good review, or a bad one ?

Please, I'm not being picky or awkward as I have never played, let alone owned a PM. However, I have played and owned many many other makes, so replacing pads on a new horn and adjusting the bell brace? Not on !!

I really am genuinely pleased you are happy, but if I purchased a new horn and I had this work done, I wouldn't be very happy :cry:
Keep in mind any horn you buy brand new that has never been setup is going to probably need some work done. It's rare to find a horn in perfect condition after shipping and straight out the box. I think you should have each new horn that has been shipped at least checked by a tech, whether it be an old MArk VI, Yamaha, or Selmer 54. Then you can have an honest evaluation of the horn and hear and feel how it really plays.

[Mark R]

Russ, Sometimes when I've received a horn it plays like a dream right out of the case. However, most times especially if the horn was first shipped from Taiwan to USA, then the distributor in USA to the dealer , then from the dealer to buyer I have found all that vibration usually means you can expect to have the need for some adjustment. Reason the pad was replaced was not due to wear. It is because the pad was not seated correctly on the horn. As inexpensive as pads are my tech (me too) decided it would be easier to use the original resonator and seat an new pad instead of trying to work one around that already had a fairly deep indentation due to my insisting that the seller use key clamps. Also if you had any idea just how much tumbling your package goes through between your buying the horn and it arriving it is not uncommon that something like an adjustment on key heights and the bell brace or not uncommon.

It is not really a reflection on the quality of the horn rather a result of what it takes to get the instrument in optimum playing condition after all that traveling. In the past I have received Yanagisawa, Selmer, Keilwerth and King horns with similar issues so it isn't due to faulty manufacturing on P. Mauriats part. It will be quite some time before it bears out whether the quality of the P. Mauriats have as high a standard as the "Big 4". That is part of the risk I am willing to take ...and glad I took now that I have this horn. It is a solid, heavy , well constructed instrument as far as I can see from playing it thus far.

[GAS_Wyo]

I just couldn't wait to get to a computer to write about my experience yesterday! I live only 5 hours from Ft. Collins, CO, the "home" of Sax Alley. I came down to go through every store in the Denver area to find 'the' sax for me. I made an appointment with Tim Glesman at Sax Alley for 'Thursday or Friday afternoon'. I was so excited that I couldn't sleep on Thursday night (keep in mind, I'm 45 years old). :cheers:

I stepped into Tim's shop and tried out nearly every tenor in the shop. Tried 3 different PM's, Series III, Ref 54 (with problems below the low C). I had tested an 875 Custom for a few days the week before. I like a dark, full tenor sound with a lot of character. The way I figure it, if I get a dark sounding instrument I can always brighten it up with different mouthpieces.

I'm a novice, so I asked Tim's opinions on sound throughout the 2 1/2 hour session while he continued working on a Vito to get it into playing shape. Tim likes a dark sound...that's the reason I tried out the 875 (Yamaha's darkest horn IMO).

CUTTING TO THE CHASE...I absolutely LOVED the PMXT-66R! This horn played very well out of the box. Exactly the sound I was looking to make. To me the rolled tone holes make a big difference. Big, full sound, warm, free blowing...this horn and my George Bundy mpc make beautiful music together! :treble: :D :D :D

I set the horn aside (thinking "ka-ching!!!") and asked what he thought of the quality of the 67 alto. He said the more recent models have really improved. He had one so I went out to the truck to get my Series II, mpc, etc. My horn was dark (IMO) compared to the other alto's I've played. It responded pretty well, but wasn't perfect. I picked up the PMXA-67R and was JUST BLOWN AWAY!!! This is THE darkest, fullest (I don't even know more adjectives) alto I've ever played. :sunny:

Keep in mind I've been playing with a guy for the last 2 years who has "The Martin" alto. His is not just any horn. He's from Elkhart, IN, and his Grandfather worked in the Martin factory making horns. My buddy got a summer job at the factory play testing horns under his grandfather's tuteledge in the late 60's. HIS horn was a gift from Granddad...A custom engraved, gold and silver plated custom "The Martin". The sweetest alto I'd ever heard before this one. :notworth:

CUTTING TO THE CHASE AGAIN...I ordered both horns!!! Now, when I say I ordered them, Tim does a pro set up (pad treatment, oiling, adjustment of the action, everything) before he let's a new horn go out the door. I will come back down to Ft. Collins (Windsor) when the horns are ready. Probably about 2 weeks. :headbang:

I'm elated! A dream come true. You couldn't find any tech with better skills than Tim, he's one of the nicest guys I've ever met, but HE'S BUSY! :notworth:

If you're not convinced that a horn made in Taiwan can be Fantastic, you haven't heard one of THESE. Yes, I'm a convert...especially at these prices for excellent quality...AMEN! :smilebox:

Greg Smith

[xuanvu]

Hi Greg,
I was just answered your PM message and then read this post :) You and I both have similiar experience with the P. Mauriat horns :) I don't play tenor but the alto is really good. When I was at Tim's place, he doesn't have the 67R in stock, but the regular version plays really good too...

Kenny.

[Daktion]

Mark.... always glad to see another convert :) These horns are really really great.... for anyone one who goes for sound over brand name, the P. is definately an option

and Greg... glad to see you went and tried out the P. Even more cool that you went ahead and ordered both the R 66 and 67 hehe :) I'm saving my pennies and hopefully I'll get a 66R to go with my 67R as well :D

I wonder if anyone else had the same response as I when I first tried the R. Scaling down the notes it just gets richer, darker, deeper....my reaction; suprise, shock, then pure love.

[Jbroad572]

I just couldn't wait to get to a computer to write about my experience yesterday! I live only 5 hours from Ft. Collins, CO, the "home" of Sax Alley. I came down to go through every store in the Denver area to find 'the' sax for me. I made an appointment with Tim Glesman at Sax Alley for 'Thursday or Friday afternoon'. I was so excited that I couldn't sleep on Thursday night (keep in mind, I'm 45 years old). :cheers:

I stepped into Tim's shop and tried out nearly every tenor in the shop. Tried 3 different PM's, Series III, Ref 54 (with problems below the low C). I had tested an 875 Custom for a few days the week before. I like a dark, full tenor sound with a lot of character. The way I figure it, if I get a dark sounding instrument I can always brighten it up with different mouthpieces.

I'm a novice, so I asked Tim's opinions on sound throughout the 2 1/2 hour session while he continued working on a Vito to get it into playing shape. Tim likes a dark sound...that's the reason I tried out the 875 (Yamaha's darkest horn IMO).

CUTTING TO THE CHASE...I absolutely LOVED the PMXT-66R! This horn played very well out of the box. Exactly the sound I was looking to make. To me the rolled tone holes make a big difference. Big, full sound, warm, free blowing...this horn and my George Bundy mpc make beautiful music together! :treble: :D :D :D

I set the horn aside (thinking "ka-ching!!!") and asked what he thought of the quality of the 67 alto. He said the more recent models have really improved. He had one so I went out to the truck to get my Series II, mpc, etc. My horn was dark (IMO) compared to the other alto's I've played. It responded pretty well, but wasn't perfect. I picked up the PMXA-67R and was JUST BLOWN AWAY!!! This is THE darkest, fullest (I don't even know more adjectives) alto I've ever played. :sunny:

Keep in mind I've been playing with a guy for the last 2 years who has "The Martin" alto. His is not just any horn. He's from Elkhart, IN, and his Grandfather worked in the Martin factory making horns. My buddy got a summer job at the factory play testing horns under his grandfather's tuteledge in the late 60's. HIS horn was a gift from Granddad...A custom engraved, gold and silver plated custom "The Martin". The sweetest alto I'd ever heard before this one. :notworth:

CUTTING TO THE CHASE AGAIN...I ordered both horns!!! Now, when I say I ordered them, Tim does a pro set up (pad treatment, oiling, adjustment of the action, everything) before he let's a new horn go out the door. I will come back down to Ft. Collins (Windsor) when the horns are ready. Probably about 2 weeks. :headbang:

I'm elated! A dream come true. You couldn't find any tech with better skills than Tim, he's one of the nicest guys I've ever met, but HE'S BUSY! :notworth:

If you're not convinced that a horn made in Taiwan can be Fantastic, you haven't heard one of THESE. Yes, I'm a convert...especially at these prices for excellent quality...AMEN! :smilebox:

Greg SmithYes yes, these are great horns. Just out of curiousity, what did you think of the PM vs. the Ref 54?

[BigDaddyJ]

I think the 66R plays better than any Ref 54 I've tried (about 10 or so). The best Ref 54 I've tried didn't have the vintage finish. This is probably the best modern Selmer I've ever tried. Regardless of price, I felt my 66R played and SOUNDED better than the 54.

later

Joel

[Giganova]

You guys make me think if I should try out the 66R since I love dark tenor horns.
The only doubt that I have is: its made in Taiwan! :yikes!: To be honest, I've never seen any quality product coming out of Taiwan.

[thehighend]

The Taiwanese have some of the highest-quality manufacturing sites in the world. Not only electronics (e.g., televisions, both plasma and LCD), but other products as well (e.g., most carbon fiber bike frames, and many other related high-tech parts). If they aren't matching the French on saxophone quality yet, it's not because they can't---it will happen, if saxophone-making becomes anywhere near a high-priority in Taiwan. Fortunately for Selmer, there isn't big money in making professional saxophones, or I don't doubt that the French wouldn't be able to keep up.

There is a reason that more of us are driving cars by Toyota and Honda than Peugeot and Citroen. I wouldn't be surprised if a Taiwanese company rises to the prominence of Yamaha and Yanagisawa---two companies that definitely meet the quality of the European makers.

[Giganova]

There is a reason that more of us are driving cars by Toyota and Honda than Peugeot and Citroen.

Agreed, but Toyota and Honda are Japanese cars, not Taiwanese ;)

[thehighend]

Yes, I was aware... hence the ensuing sentence which you omitted from your Quote string.

[Giganova]

I guess it all boils down to how the horns actually sound. So far I have only heard great things about the P. Mauriat horns. Will try to find a dealer in my area to test play one.

[Chris S]

You might be interested in reading a book called 'Running Money'. While it's not entirely about this, I'll give you a brief synopsis of the information pertinent to Asian manufacturers.

Basically, the US runs a HUGE trade deficit, somewhere in the neighborhood of $300-400 million. Is it because we are exporting less than we import?

Well, yes and no.

See, the US is no longer an 'industiral' society. We are post-industrial revolution. We've moved to an 'intellectual property' economy, where ideas are worth more than labor. The big reason that we run such a huge defecit is the very device that I'm using to write this. That's right, computers. More specifically... the components in them. See, what a large majority of the guys in Silicon Valley do is pay a bunch of engineers to come up with a blueprint for a chip (or processor, or (insert other component here)). Then, they email that blueprint over to Japan or Taiwan or China or (other country that is still undergoing an industrial revolution). 'Country' makes the chips for the US company, because labor is cheaper. When the chips are done, they get shipped back into the US. So... we haven't exported anything, however we're importing all these chips and things, and those are priced... the idea that we email out isn't.

From what I understand, this is how the P's work also. They aren't designed in Taiwan. That's the key. With the way things are automated these days, doesn't really matter where it's made, as long as it's supervised well. I'm sure that the PM people have a rep at the factory that makes the horns, furthermore I'm sure that they have some kind of quality control in place. The reason that they're so cheap is because of the cheap labor. Sure, complain all you want about the poor people in (Asian country), and how they should get paid on a scale of what it would cost in the US... but when you're willing to pay a LOT more for your TV/computer/P Mauriat... then we can talk. If these horns were made in the US... you can bet your butt that they'd be priced similarly to Selmers.

Anywho... off my soap box...

Chris S

[Giganova]

I am not quite sure what the P. Mauriat company actually is: French name but obviously founded in the US just a few years ago, the horns are manufactured from French brass in Taiwan but on the bell of the horns it says "New York London France". Where do the "New York, London & France" come from? Just a marketing gimick? How old is that company? I'd be happy if someone could shed light on the history of this company!

[Giganova]

If these horns were made in the US... you can bet your butt that they'd be priced similarly to Selmers.

I am aware of this. Its just that especially some of the European brands have a loooong history in instrument design & manufacturing -- including their employees, because most of an instrument is hand assembled. It would give me a better feeling to buy a saxophone -- which is an awefully complicated instrument and supposed to last for a few decades -- from a company with long tradition and experience in building horns.

However, since I only hear great things from the P. Mauriat, I am curious and are looking into test-playing (hard to find a store who has them, though) and maybe buying one.

[Razzy]

I am not quite sure what the P. Mauriat company actually is: French name but obviously founded in the US just a few years ago, the horns are manufactured from French brass in Taiwan but on the bell of the horns it says "New York London France". Where do the "New York, London & France" come from? Just a marketing gimick? How old is that company? I'd be happy if someone could shed light on the history of this company!

It's all rather suspicious isn't it? That's why I'm eager to try them out. If they play up a storm like everybody says, then I don't care about the American who founded a company under a French Name and has the horns made in Taiwan using French brass! :)

[Jbroad572]

I think the reviews and opinions should very well speak for themselves. I've yet to read one bad review on the horn. Of course you have to take all the reviews and opinions with a grain of salt, but I mean the reputation is great so far. A number of techs have confirmed the quality of the metal and the build. Of course we don't know about them standing the test of time, but I really don't think there will be a problem. Try one out if you can.

[GAS_Wyo]

Sorry I wasn't here to answer the questions yesterday...I was out celebrating with my family in Ft. Collins, CO. We made a weekend of the trip to Sax Alley. For those of us that live in the coal, oil and gas fields of northeast Wyoming, a trip to the city every now and then is good!

Now for a comparison between the 54 and PM.
The key tension of the PM was a little much for me at first. Tim said he could regulate it down a touch. With that, it'll feel like the 54. Same key layout...right down to the splay angle.

Look..the PM's antique finish is much darker...if I can figure it out, I'll post a photo showing the PM's and 54 side by side. The greatest thing about the PM was the pearls...they purposely used pearls with dark streaks through them to match the finish! It's way cool!!! 8-) Overall, I could like the look of either horn after opening the case a few hundred times.

Sound...as observed by Daktion
I wonder if anyone else had the same response as I when I first tried the R. Scaling down the notes it just gets richer, darker, deeper....my reaction; suprise, shock, then pure love.
Well put! But what surprised me even more was the dark nature of the horn up through the palm keys (as compared to my Bundy). The "pure love" hit me about 20 minutes into playing it. As I said, I was gushing! :colors:

PS...as said above, Get the Calendar! Mine arrived Saturday...Way Cool! :D

[Razzy]

Well I honestly don't care about the finish at all, as long as it's not strikingly ugly or has vile slander written on it :D The thing that concerns me is the term "dark" that often pops up when describing these horns. In my experience, when others have found something to play "dark", I find that for me, the thing plays "stuffy". I really like my Mark VI alto, Buffet clarinet, Yamaha flute etc. so I tend to prefer the brighter, more-overtones type of instruments that also have what one might call a full-bodied sound. Instruments that really seem to vibrate in your hands and which you don't have to PUSH to get a good sound out of: they just respond with a resonant sound immediately as long as you support it. I guess there's no telling till I can get out and play one...

[BigZ]

Razzy, you might like the nickel silver. I , like you prefer a brighter instrument. Although no matter what horn I play it tends to be dark sounding. That's why I got the nickel silver. You definitely don't have to push to get a good sound out of it. It sounds much better with a HR mouthpiece though. I seem to be in the minority in liking the NS better, but I'm the one who has to play it. It's a nice compliment to my SX90R. I wish I could get the Mark VI back I sold in the 70s to get a new Mark VII. ( Can you believe that? Who woulda knew?)

[Giganova]

Hey BigZ --

would you mind comparing the P. Mauriat with your SX90R? I have a JK SX90 and are thinking about either getting an SX90R black laquer finish or the P. Mauriat 66R coz I want a dark sound.

Thanks!

[BigZ]

The nickel silver I have is a totally different animal than the SX90R. However the limited time I spent on the 66R reminded me a lot of the SX. Both PMs had better intonation than the SX. I have to adjust a lot to maintain pitch on the Keilwerth. The SX I have is black nickel and is very dark. Partly due to the inherent qualities of the horn and partly due to me and my playing style. The SX has a huge bottom end that speaks a little easier than the PMs.(oversized bell). Now my PM nickel silver is brighter, but with the right mouthpiece is very full and edgy. I like it better than the SX90R. The PM is the horn I always grab now. Maybe because it's new. The intonation is great. I think the Keilwerth might be a little beefier feeling, but the PM is made very well. It just feels, plays and sounds great. If I didn't already have rolled tone holes, I would have opted for the PM66R. Now that I've had time to play the PM, I'm very glad I got it. You can't go wrong with either horn, but for significantly less money, my vote is for the PM.

[Giganova]

Thanks a lot for the review!

I have the regular gold-laquered SX90 and are interested in getting the "vintage style" PM 66R because it is know to be one of the darkest horns (and I like the rolled tone holes and finish). Do you think it might be worth selling my SX90 and getting the 66R in your opinion?

Thanks!

[Morry]

The sounds of the Mauriat and the Keilwerth are not very similar in my opinion, other than they are both somewhat spread. The Mauriat is much darker, and I found it livelier. Contrary to what was said above, I certainly didn't find the Mauriat intonation to be any better than the SX. They both have the same issues as any saxophone. On virtually every horn I've ever played, there was at least one note that needed some player adjustment to correct pitch. If that wasn't so, any dummy could play them. :-)

The Mauriat is significantly lighter in weight, although without being cheap feeling. The Keilwerth certainly has a more "quality" feel in the hands, but the small manufacturing imperfections of the Mauriat don't affect tone or playabilty.

I prefer the SX90R for all-around playing. It just has a tone that resonates with ME. However, if I was playing strictly jazz in a small combo and wanted a dark, lush horn, the P. Mauriat would be my choice.

Either is a great choice for a horn that could serve you for years to come. I had to sell my Mauriat, but I intend to get another. It really was a joy to play.

[BigZ]

I can't speak much of the 66R. Morry seems to be a better judge of that horn. Don't get me wrong, I love my SX90R. As far as the intonation thing, I have to adjust more than the PM. That is my opinion of MY horns, not Morry's or any other Keilwerth. And I'm no dummy without training trying to play. It certainly doesn't affect my playing as we all have to make adjustments as Morry pointed out. That said, I don't know if I would take a loss on the horn you have to get the one I have (nickel silver). You have to play a 66R to make that decision. I know I wouldn't sell my Keilwerth. Although I love my PM, if both horns were even money, I'd probably choose the SX90R. But given the price difference, my vote is still the PM.

[Giganova]

I have just posted a review of the P. Mauriat 66R "vintage finish" tenor sax in another thread:

http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=256883&postcount=32

Check it out!

[Mark R]

I tried the PM Nickel Silver model first. The one I tried wasn't really what I would term as brighter. To me it had a less open more restrictive air column and no vibration. I personally found it to be rather dull, lifeless and sterile. I had special ordered it from Dave at Junkdude. When I contacted Dave to let him know I wanted to return the horn he concurred that this particular Nickel Silver model did not play the same for him and was a more restrictive feeling horn than the Custom Class series.

Dave encouraged me to try the Custom Class model (66 and 66R) before throwing in the towel on P. Mauriat. I almost didn't.....just about decided I would prefer to trade on one of his nice vintage horns instead. So, end of story for me is that once I tried the PMXT-66R I was totally blown away and very,very impressed by it's performance. It is an entirely differnt playing horn to me.

Dark? not to me...can you play lush subtones and dark with it yes....can you get rip it up and honk on it like a barwalker...hell yes. I don't think of it as dark at all, it is a very lively horn that vibrates in your hands when you fill it with air. No matter how hard I blow it keeps a big full sound instead of going shrill like some of the other Asian horns...or even a MKVI for me. Of course it is a matter of preferences, different strokes/ different folks. That is why there are so many choices of horns and mouthpieces. They all respond differently and different players are looking for something different.

For me I like the big, gutsy, huge, soulful, seasoned sound of my 66R. I can hardly put the horn down....and all my other tenors, a B&S Codera, Keilwerth New King and Keilwerth stencil "Metro" are sittin' in their cases....I will probably be selling at least one of them very soon.....this has got me jonesin' for an alto 67R.:twisted:

[GAS_Wyo]

MarkR - This is a fantastic review! I'm still in the 'learning stage' on horn sounds as I am just getting back into playing again. Thanks!

What mpc do you use to "rip it up and honk on it like a barwalker"? What reeds? I'm in the market for mpcs, so I am looking for some recommendations.

Thanks again!!!

[Mark R]

What mpc do you use to "rip it up and honk on it like a barwalker"? What reeds? I'm in the market for mpcs, so I am looking for some recommendations.

What day of the week is it and what is the phase of the moon?:? I have a lot of different mouthpieces. These days my main ride for gettin' sweet and nasty is a RPC .125B that has baffle work done by Chuck Gomez with a Lebayle Soloist ligature and Phat #2 reeds. I also have a obnoxiously loud Lamberson 7DD Acetal(white nylon), a Guardala Super King and for the quiet moments a vintage scoop bill Berg .105/1/sms. Overall I find the RPC can take me from the hotel lobby tubby tone to the blues bar moanin'/wailin'/growlin/ in the middle of a phrase.:D

[Morry]

I can't speak much of the 66R. Morry seems to be a better judge of that horn. Don't get me wrong, I love my SX90R. As far as the intonation thing, I have to adjust more than the PM. That is my opinion of MY horns, not Morry's or any other Keilwerth. And I'm no dummy without training trying to play. It certainly doesn't affect my playing as we all have to make adjustments as Morry pointed out. That said, I don't know if I would take a loss on the horn you have to get the one I have (nickel silver). You have to play a 66R to make that decision. I know I wouldn't sell my Keilwerth. Although I love my PM, if both horns were even money, I'd probably choose the SX90R. But given the price difference, my vote is still the PM.


I agree completely. If I was buying new again, I don't know that I'd spend the difference to get the JK. The Mauriat is just over half the price, and it would me well forever. Unfortunately, I would have taken a beating if I tried to sell my SX90R.

[sweetsax]

Oh man, why do you guys do this to me....... every time I visit this section I end up getting a serious itch to buy a P Mauriat. I might have to take a day off from work and take the drive up to Sax Alley for another round of playing those Mauriats.

I like it better than the SX90R. The PM is the horn I always grab now.

Hey BigZ
Could you share your thoughts on the playability (action and ergonomics) of these two horns? I fell in love with the sound of the SX90, but after owning one for about a year now, I've started to worry that I won't ever really get comfortable with the keys and the feel.

I am not a professional player, and I don't think I put in enough practice time to overcome the less-than-perfect ergonomics of the SX90. I think I might need to come back down to earth (so to speak) and realize that I need a more forgiving horn for the amount playing I actually do.

Tim at Sax Alley told me those P. Mauriats are basically a very good copy of a Selmer Series II. Well, I played a Series II last weekend against my SX90, and even though both horns were equally good, one thing that really stood out about the II was how much easier it was to play. So this has got me thinking I could get similar results from the P Mauriat........ any comparison you could share would be helpful. Thanks!

[rispoli]

Well, I played a Series II last weekend against my SX90, and even though both horns were equally good, one thing that really stood out about the II was how much easier it was to play.

I am also other than a professional, but I had a different impression this weekend.
I had a Series III on trial and, after an A/B/C comparison with an SX90 and a B&S 2001, I haven't found it easier to play. I ended up liking its keywork best, though. It would complement well the SX90, because its sound is quite sweeter while the Keilwerth is harsher to my ears. Less complementary to the B&S because I found the sound quite similar (the III being slightly brighter, but not as bright as I thought, and had a better high A).
Given the price I did not keep it, but I was highly impressed.

[BigDaddyJ]

I really like Keilwerths (especially vintage ones). I know they are on the "dark" sids of the spectrum, but "harsh" is exactly what I get out of SX90R's at higher volumes. There's some thing in the higher partials that drives me nuts. You don't get that with the older New Kings and Coufs.

It's been a while since I tried one, but the Selmer Series III is the biggest disappointment I've ever had in my sax experience, especially for the price. Ergonomics are great, but that sound........I can't stand to play them more than a couple of minutes. I have never tried a Series II.

I think B&S tenors are great. I had my heart set on a B&S 2001 until I tried my current P. Mauriat 66R. I'm a vintage American sax kind of guy, and the P. Mauriats are the closest I've ever heard any modern tenor sound to those old American beauties (with great ergonomics!!!!!). I have a GREAT The Martin tenor that hasn't come out of it's case in ages. Prior to my current 66R, there was only one sax that made me CRAVE it. It was a Martin Magna that I tried at Sax Alley last year. From what I remember about that particular horn, I would still choose my current tenor over it.

For the record, this is my set-up on my P. Mauriat 66R:

Mouthpiece: Fred Rast J 118
Ligature: Bois Delrin model
Reeds: Rico Select Jazz Unfiled 3M
Neck strap: Oleg brown leather (?imitation?)


Later

Joel

[Giganova]

I don't find the Keilwerth SX90's harsh at all. If you have the right mpc+reed combination and mindset it can sound anything you want.

I liked the sound of the 66R in the lower registers where it is truely phenomenal but in the higher registers it lacked some sparkle you'd expect from a professional horn. It actually sounded a bit dull. Also, even though the keywork is rather similar to the JK SX90, the left-hand pinkey keys are too far spread for my hands.

I was and I am still thinking about getting the 66R -- but I wouldn't get it to replace my SX90, which is clearly a better horn (both in terms of production quality, intonation/sound and resale value). It would only make sense to purchase it in order to add a different flavor.

[GAS_Wyo]

Interestingly, I played my SA80-II alto right beside the 67R. In comparison, the whole range of the PM has a darker sound. I couldn't believe the difference. As I said earlier in this thread, I thought my SA80 had a pretty dark sound for an alto. I won't have to change setup with this horn to get what I want. Just an old Selmer C* and some LaVoz medium Jazz reeds and I'm set. :D

Regarding the last, Giganova, I'm not too worried about resale value. I think I'm going to be satisfied with the 66R and 67R for a long time.! I decided a long time ago to invest a total of $10K in the 4 main horns. By my count, I came in about $500 below that total. One of these days my kids or wife will sell these horns. I'm keeping them informed about the potential value so they won't get ripped. Of course, it won't matter to me, and hopefully they will have some sound clips and photos of me playing to remind me how much joy these horns brought to me while I was alive.

BigDaddyJ...I have to agree that the Series III tenor was one of the biggest disappointments I've had also. I played this horn about 4 minutes...so I must be more tolerant than you!:twisted: I picked up the PM again and just loved that sound again. :)

[rispoli]

I have a GREAT The Martin tenor that hasn't come out of it's case in ages. Prior to my current 66R, there was only one sax that made me CRAVE it. It was a Martin Magna that I tried at Sax Alley last year.

Joel,
I am just coming back from a 2-hrs playing session with my The Martin Music Man tenor that I remember you happened to play (at Saxalley).
I thought that it doesn't get much darker than that when playing with a Morgan Excalibur EL and Vandoren blue box reeds and I'd suggest Giganova to give a shot to that too.
However, if your P. Mauriat is darker than a The Martin.....:shock: it must be the "ultimate dark tenor" he is looking for!

[Giganova]

Hey Rispoli -- The Martin is the next horn I will check out. Hard to find one to play in my area, though. I am still tempted to get the 66R in addition to my existing horn because, overall, I liked that sax a lot.

[BigDaddyJ]

Ok you guys are catching me in a talkative (so to speak) moment.

rispoli, I wouldn't say that my 66R is "darker" than The Martin. In fact, I believe they sound VERY similar. I remember that Music Man Martin. That's a smokin' tenor. It's brighter than my Martin, but otherwise every bit as good as my Martin. I remember you mentioning that you had some problems with the lower end; did you ever resolve that issue? At Sax Alley, I thought that horn was very free-blowing with no problems in the low end. I actually don't think of Morgan EL mouthpieces as beinig very dark. I had an 8EL as my reference piece for years. That piece could cut through almost amy band without a mic. In the end, the emphasis in the upper partials (those damn upper partials again!) made me sell the piece after I discovered the Rast J.

Giganova, Dexter Gordon has been my hero for quite a while. His TONE, melodic lines, his........EVERYTHING! An old buddy from a college big band (yikes!!!!15 years ago) told me about how he saw Dexter years ago when he was a teenager (this guy was in his 60's). He said Dexter was playing in this HUGE hall without a mic, and he filled the hall up with his beautiful sound. This story has stuck with me for the last 15 years. This is what I aim for. I move a lot of air through a horn, and if that horn gets any flavor of shrill going, it's a real turn off. Have you tried the vintage Keilwerths against your SX90? Same big Keilwerth sound without the those upper partials at high volumes. I too experienced the same thing as Mark R. After Tim's setup, my 66R SANG!!! Dark sound without sounding veiled (hello Buffet). Full, room shaking sound without getting shrill. Lush ballads, yet a great edgey funk sound. This horn can do it all. I would highly recommend re-trying this horn fully setup. I think it competes well with ANYTHING on the marked regardless of price. Ok......I'll get off my pedastal now.

later

Joel

[BigZ]

Hey Sweetsax, the KW feels more solid and seems constructed better and agrees with me well because I have big hands. Now by no means do I mean the PM feels cheaply constructed. In fact I can play faster and more cleanly on the PM, it just feels and responds great. I had the action lightened on the PM. I've never played a Serie II but they appear the same. Based on what you're saying I think the PM might agree with you more than the KW. Keep in mind, Selmer is top notch to me, maybe because I was taught with the Selmer is the only horn mentality. Maybe someone that has both can comment on that. I haven't owned a Selmer for 15 years. I played for money from 1974 ( a wedding band when I was 14) then through college to about 1988. I then had to give it up for health reasons and played guitar instead until a couple surgeries fixed me up. Now I can play sax again. It's a whole different game now. So many good horns. I want one of each. If you're like me you're always on the hunt for a better or different MP, sound, sax, guitar, amp, PA, or whatever. I'd better work some more overtime.

[rispoli]

rispoli, I wouldn't say that my 66R is "darker" than The Martin. In fact, I believe they sound VERY similar. I remember that Music Man Martin. That's a smokin' tenor. It's brighter than my Martin, but otherwise every bit as good as my Martin. I remember you mentioning that you had some problems with the lower end; did you ever resolve that issue? At Sax Alley, I thought that horn was very free-blowing with no problems in the low end. I actually don't think of Morgan EL mouthpieces as beinig very dark. I had an 8EL as my reference piece for years. That piece could cut through almost amy band without a mic. In the end, the emphasis in the upper partials (those damn upper partials again!) made me sell the piece after I discovered the Rast J.


Joel,
yes, I did solve the lower end issues by using softer reeds. Still not as easy as the B&S low end, but perhaps better sounding.
I got the Morgan Excalibur because it comes highly recommended for Bueschers (I have a Big B too) and found that it is probably my darkest piece (competes with the Zagar Cool School and the Ponzol II-V-I). Today I played the Martin exclusively with that and.... what a dark sound!
I am actualy looking for a Morgan L chamber, which is supposed to be even darker.

[sweetsax]

Hey Sweetsax, the KW feels more solid and seems constructed better and agrees with me well because I have big hands. Now by no means do I mean the PM feels cheaply constructed. In fact I can play faster and more cleanly on the PM, it just feels and responds great. I had the action lightened on the PM......

yeah, BigZ, faster and cleaner. That's exactly what I am looking for. I don't have big hands. I have medium/small hand with fat fingers. When I first started playing the KW, I loved the way it felt. This was my first tenor ever, so the big keys and deep concave pearls felt very natural and solid. It felt exacly like I would expect a tenor should feel after only playing alto all my life.

I never thought the different feel of the KW would lead to playing limitations when it comes to playing fast and clean. I think if I was a professional and practicing for several hours per day the KW ergos would eventually not be an issue. But I only play a couple hours a week. I mainly play a Ref 54 alto, and occasionally double on tenor - so I'm thinking that going from the selmer alto to the P. will be much more "user-friendly" than going from the selmer alto to the SX90.

Well..... I know that this is all up to me, and I shouldn't make any decisions just based on advise from this forum. So what I am going to do is - take the next few months to get real good at playing some fast tempo Etudes on the SX90. then I'll take a trip to sax alley and spend a couple hours playing those same Etudes on the PSMT-66. If the P. seems to be light years ahead of the KW on playing fast and clean, I think I'll be coming back home with a new Taiwanese Tenor........

[Giganova]

If the P. seems to be light years ahead of the KW on playing fast and clean........
That's very unlikely ;)

[sweetsax]

you know, Giganova, in many ways I hope you are right. Then I could stick with the SX90 and never look back. But if the difference in ergos and action is enough to make me notice in my playing, then I'll have some serious thinking to do about which sax is a better fit for me and my personal playing.

The best solution would be to just keep the SX90 and get the P. as a second tenor, but for me, that would be financially irresponsible......;)

stupid conscience - never lets me have any fun :D

[Giganova]

The best solution would be to just keep the SX90 and get the P. as a second tenor, but for me, that would be financially irresponsible......;)

I am in the exact same position! Already talked to wifey who didn't quite understand why one would "need" two tenors, but I'm working on it! :D The Mauriat is certainly not better in any way than the JK -- but its a different flavor of sound which I dig a lot.

Hmmm, lets see: "pay bills - buy saxophone", "pay bills - buy saxophone", "pay bills - buy saxophone" ... tough decision!

[BigZ]

Hey Sweetsax, don't expect that big of a difference. But, it just might fit you better. And guys, just do what I did, go to feeding the wifey and kids every other day and there's your new horn!

[Mark R]

SweetSax, Instead of trying to solve your ergnomic problems with buying a new horn have you taken your horn to a competent repair tech and had them try some different key height adjustments or maybe having the spring tension adjusted some? Much cheaper than buying a new horn....that might need to have adjustments as well.

[rispoli]

the Selmer Series III is the biggest disappointment I've ever had in my sax experience, especially for the price. Ergonomics are great, but that sound........I can't stand to play them more than a couple of minutes.Joel

I am quite surprised to read this (also Gas Wyo reported something similar). Maybe I got a lucky unit in my hands for those 3 days trial, however I did not find any weak point on it other than its price. The sound was really good to my ears and less bright than I expected (having read here quite a lot about it). The so called "Selmer sound" was definitely there. It would have been a great complement to a SX90.

[gary]

I haven't played a III but last summer I was in a Berklee workshop and the instuctor (Greg Badalato) grabbed a students horn and played it and immediately you could hear the difference in sound. Greg has played a VI since Adam and the student's horn was a III. Then he asked to blow another student's and again there was a difference from the VI and again the sax was a III. In each case the III's were instantly louder and a bit brighter than Greg when he played his VI.

BTW, both of these III players played their yingyangs off and sounded very good on their III's.

FWIW.

[sweetsax]

SweetSax, Instead of trying to solve your ergnomic problems with buying a new horn have you taken your horn to a competent repair tech and had them try some different key height adjustments or maybe having the spring tension adjusted some? Much cheaper than buying a new horn....that might need to have adjustments as well.
Yep, as a matter of fact, I happen to play in a concert band with Larry Naylor (most folks in the Rocky Mtn front range area probably know the name - highly regarded instrument tech)

Anyway, we had rehearal last night and I spent some time talking to him about my experience with that series II. He assured me that a KW could be made to perform as equally buttery smooth as the selmer I played. Although he did make the consession that an Alto player like me who occassionally doubles on tenor may feel more comfortable on a tenor with selmer-like ergos (since I play a selmer alto).

I won't do any thing rash (yet). My problem really is that ever since I got that KW tenor, all I have done for woodsheding is play a bunch of Abersolds (can't help it, the ballads are just so much fun on that JK). What I need to do is take that tenor re-work all those Lennie Neihaus and Mule books I studied as a child on alto. Only with that foundation will I be truely capable of judging what I'm doing on those tenors.....

[Rackety Sax]

...Basically, the US runs a HUGE trade deficit, somewhere in the neighborhood of $300-400 million. ...Hey Chris, you're off by a slight factor of 1000 there - the U.S. annual trade deficit is measured in billions, not millions.

Hope this correction helps everyone figure out the relative merits of the P. Mauriat. :D

[Chris S]

Hey Chris, you're off by a slight factor of 1000 there - the U.S. annual trade deficit is measured in billions, not millions.

Hope this correction helps everyone figure out the relative merits of the P. Mauriat. :D

Touche....

At any rate, the "defecit" is HUGE!