Radio Improved alto question....

[ving]

Hello,

A co worker of mine has a great example of a late Radio Improved alto he picked up, but we're trying to figure out its exact heritage. I don't have the serial number at hand, but I know it puts it in the very late radio horns or the early Balanced action. It has the usual balanced engraving with the trees and cottage, and the Radio left bell keys. The thing that is stumping me is the right hand is offset, and to my knowledge that didn;t happen until the Super Action horns. Also, the low c guard is actually soldered right over the serial number in that location, but I am quite sure it has not been realacquered. Anyone have any ideas? (I'll see if I can get a hold of the serial number...)



Thanks

[AMASAX]

zounds interesting here, why don't you post a pic or two when you get a chance?

you're right, the offset right hand did *not* appear until the Super Balanced Action horns, which came out shortly after WWII.

So, sumpin's up, here, *could* possibly have a one-off, but is more likely the horns been modified somehow.

Have seen many altos & tenors from this time period, all of them had tone holes the lined up all the way down the horn.

[AMASAX]

oh, btw, *one* faint possibility is that this horn was made much later(in which case the serial number should indicate this), and what they did was use an SBA body, an RI bell and cobble together a mixture of keywork to make it all fly.

[saxomophone]

There's something at www.saxpics.com about special order horns that had the BA body with Selmer Super keywork. That may be what your friend has. Maybe a Jimmy Dorsey model?

http://www.saxpics.com/selmer/balanced.htm

[Tharruff]

For that vintage of a horn, I am almost certain that the S/N should be on the bell right below the Selmer logo.

An RI should be in the 19XXX range, I think ?

[ving]

Hello, thanks for the info. I checked out saxpics site, and I think this is either the Dorsey model or some other specialty order. I'm going to see the horn again after this weekend, so I can check out the key guards. The serial number is 24,xxx so its definitely into the balanced action production. Interestingly, though, I think the horn has the serial number in two spots--it is where it should be on the bell below the logo, but then its also stamped along the back of the body down above the seam like all the later horns--this is where the keyguard is soldered right on top of it. If I can get a hold of a camera, I'll get some pics of the horn as I think it may be sold in the next week or so. I did play it, and its a got a really great quality to it. Not as mellow as other balanced actions I have played, this has a free blowing bright quality to it. I enjoyed it...but the offset right hand still puzzles me though...

[Tharruff]

There is a weird dual S/N thing with the older horns. I have a Modele 22, an SSS 'Cigar Cutter' and a B/A and they all have two different S/N's.

In the case of my B/A, the 'real' S/N is on the bell (29XXX) while there is a secondary S/N (18XXX) below the thumbrest.

Similar dual S/N stuff with the other two also...but in different locations on the horns than the B/A.

There have been threads on this board in the past where the dual S/N thing has been discussed but I don't recall any real definitive resolution.

Weird.....

[paulwl]

An RI should be in the 19XXX range, I think ?
I once owned a Radio tenor #241xx - with castle vignette!

[Tharruff]

Paul,

Thus my question mark...

I have seen an RI Alto with a 19XXX stamping but that is the ONLY RI that I am confidentally aware of looking at in any detail. I held it and I played it.

I also own a 29XXX B/A...so somewhere between 19XXX (and maybe earlier) and 24XXX is the reign of the RI.

[AMASAX]

well, as has been discussed ad nauseum in the past, there was plenty of overlap on Selmer model changes, particularly in the older vintage stuff. As far as R.I. model, thev overlapped quite a bit into the BA run, and would make one up on special order if one desired. Had someone try to peddle me a RI (don't remember if alto or tenor) a few yrs ago, it had a serial way up in the 20,xxx (28,xxx if i remember right), so 24,000 would be well in the range for it to be a 'vanilla' RI.

In my earlier post, I mentioned the right hand offset, which definitely did NOT come onto the scene until much later when the SBA model came out, so 'bout ZERO chance a 24,xxx horn would have this.

I suspect if the details on this horn are investigated, things will be much clearer.

Having said all of this, i AM curious as to how this'll pan out. :)

[AMASAX]

oh, btw, per Tharfuff's post, the earliest BA serial i've seen was in the 20,xxx range; the latest RI I've seen(on ebay) was 24,xxx (not counting the horn i described above).

At one time I owned a BA tenor, serial 22,112 and a RI tenor, 22192 that were(obviously) 80 apart serial number-wise, and in the 'wrong' order.

So, as mentioned above, plenty of overlap on RI & BA models.

[AMASAX]

oops, 'Tharruff' ...damn keyboard (at least i'll blame it on the keyboard :) )

[ving]

Hello,


Well, upon a second look the horn in question doesn't have the offset keys--I must have been hallucinating when I looked at it the other day. It doesn't appear to have the Dorsey key guards either. But it does have the same serial number both on the bell as well as on the back of the body. Apears to be the same number, but its hard to tell as the guard is soldered right over the number. Same thing with the key guards for the low B and Bb--they seem to be soldered over some of the engraving, as it the horn was engraved as if for a Balanced Action, but ended up being slapped together with the RI gaurds and keywork. Must have been one of the left over parts horns or a special order. I'll see if I can get some pictures for perusal...

[paulwl]

This may not be the place to advertise, but I do have a good solid R-I alto, #19k, that I'd be willing to let go at a reasonable price. Needs o/h to play her best, but ain't bad now. If you yearn for the bygone days of Radio, write me at: paulwl@cyburban.com

[AMASAX]

aha, details, details, things becoming CLEARER(or, at least, less vague :) ).

Serial number thing is interesting...from everything i've seen in the past, *all* SSS derived horns(which would include RI) have the serial number on the bell, under the H Selmer script. Selmer then started puting serials on the back, in the now familiar location during the Bal. Action run; however, very inconsistent here, as i've seen BA altos with serial on bell, some on back, and *not* in an order that would indicate a switchover at some specific date or serial. Kinda mixed on where they put it. Also, seems to be more mixed on the altos than on tenors, as all of the tenors i've seen before 30,000 have the serial on the bell; with the altos, you just can't predict where the 2x,xxx serial might be. Haven't seen BA tenors in the 3x,xxx range to know where the serial might be.

And, by the time we get to the SBA, they're all on the backside....

Only thing i could think of is that on the early BA horns, maybe Selmer put the serial on bell/back depending upon which country the horn was exported too, but that doesn't make a whole lot of sense(then, again, ain't much sense in a lot of this early stuff).

I used to own a silver BA alto, 29,xxx that had serial on the bell, had an F# key(implemented differently than in the modern config). Don't recall for sure, but i think that may have been a Euro horn...

Weird stuff here, lots of room for speculation and 'authoritative' comments :wink: