Coltrane's mpc on Blue Train [Archive]

docformat

12-26-2005, 09:28 PM

hi bluenote (happy xmas)

well its definitely a link on the cover and he was known for playing these so i wouold guess thats what he played on that album. obviously in todays parlance that would be a 'vintage' link and these pieces change hands for quite a lot: $4-500. but trane had his pieces worked on as well. the new NY links can be pretty good - i think they are around $200. (i might be alittle out with the prices)

as regards the reed/mouthpiece combo - well thats trial and error - but you knew that right?! however it is more usual to choose the reed to work with a mouthpiece rather than the other way round.

BlueNote

12-26-2005, 09:49 PM

Alright... cool, thanks.

I'll be at the local music store tomorrow, so I can just try out a few and see how I sound on various links.

kavala

12-26-2005, 10:15 PM

I think it would have been an Otto Link STM Florida, which I have,
and have been playing for a long time. I bought it new, but it is now
considered a vintage.

I have just recently bought a Jody Jazz ESP, which I find is similar
to the Link, but has a fatter sound and is much easier blowing,
especially down in the lower register.

You can order these through Jody Jazz's web site.
They have a 'try before you buy' policy and are a fantastic
bunch to deal with.

As I have not had this mpc very long (in fact two days), I haven't
tried many reeds with it, but so far the best results I have had
is with Alexander Superial.

This is a very nice sounding mouthpiece and doesn't tire you out.
Check them out.

danarsenault

12-26-2005, 10:18 PM

In general, all other things being equal, and your mileage may vary, the stiffer the reed the smaller the tip opening.

BlueNote

12-26-2005, 10:30 PM

How are Links when it comes to playing altissimo?

I dug out my Berg 110/0 earlier today and just played on that some to get used to metal. I can play altissimo pretty easily on it, but I don't really dig the tone I get on it (though others will disagree), and I don't like the feel of it. It's the only metal mpc I've played on, so I'd like to try some others, especially a couple Links.

Tully

12-26-2005, 10:35 PM

How are Links when it comes to playing altissimo?

I've never played a vintage Link, but I've played several modern ones, and they can be very comfortable in the altissimo. Of course, you might try half a dozen before you find one that plays well up there. If anything, I imagine the Florida Links would be generally better up high than the modern ones, since I believe they have a bit more material in the baffle.

saxtek

12-27-2005, 02:22 AM

Coltrane spent a lot of time at Frank Wells' downtown Chicago refacing studio. Frank was a superb mouthpiece craftsman, perhaps the biggest secret in the saxophone mouthpiece industry.

Keith Ridenhour

12-27-2005, 02:29 AM

Blue, if you want to really spend (some would say waste?) alot of time you can do what I did. Buy a NY link from WW and BWs for 135 bucks and experiment with putting baffles into it. I stumbled across a few baffles ( I used Plumbers putty and formed the baffle and then basically had 20 minutes to mold it until it got too hard to change) that were very good and then I messed them up with my "modifications". The new New Yorks are very good and if you want to go stiff reed then stick to a 6 or 7 piece. I think Trane went around with a bag of mouthpieces and he "searched" for his tone as much as alot of us do with lots of pieces and reeds, ligs , etc. I traded a guy a Guardala Super King for a vintage Florida Link and frankly it didn't seem to me like a 300 dollar piece? But if you want dark with character try the new New Yorks. I liked the tone on mine but it didn't have enough punch for RnB so I put in the baffle. You can hear my baffled link with my P Mauriet on my webpage from a gig cut Proud mary. But with a stiffer reed and different horn of course you'll sound different. If I use a 2.5 strength reed with the link, alt is not bad. Actually, I like the feel and response of my link better than the berg I'm experimenting with , I just can't be heard in an RnB setting unless I have my baffle just right so I'm using the berg and trying to find the right reed. The link tone spreads better which I like also. Good luck. K

BlueNote

12-27-2005, 05:20 AM

Thanks again for the advice, all. I'm so uneducated when it comes to mouthpieces and whatnot.

I've actually been diggin' my ol' Berg 110/0 (with my gold Olegature) that I used to use many years ago on my Antigua tenor (ugh). At first, I didn't like it (today = first time playing it in 4 years)... but the more I play it, the more I like it. I get a little bit brighter (http://s10.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=1L2ENFGL0MEIF0MU2QY24I8ZUG) sound on it than on my Beechler (more Brecker-ish). I suppose I should sit down with a tuner or in front of my piano and see how well it tunes. :| (That's half the reason I am looking into this)

I used to use the Berg on my old tenor (Antigua) and Vandoren 2 or 2.5 reeds. I used to get this mellow, soft tone out of it, but it never played with much volume. It plays much better on the harder reeds (currently on RR 4 strength reeds)... and projects well.

Tomorrow I am still going to the music store to get reeds, though I'll see if they carry a couple of the mouthpieces suggested. For me, it is going to be a trial-and-error type of thing, since I have only played on one mouthpiece in my entire life (the Berg 110/0). I've at least seen metal mouthpieces there before, so I'm half way there. :D The guy that works there (it's an independent store) knows a lot, so he can most likely help me when it comes to chasing after a certain tone on a mouthpiece. Sometimes you can just say "I want a wider, Dexter-ish sound" and he'll dig out a couple mouthpieces that might do the job.

Financially, I'm not looking to spend more than $150 if I end up getting a new mouthpiece. Or if it plays super well, and there is no other mouthpiece like it, it might be worth it (if it plays in tune).

Razzy

12-27-2005, 07:02 AM

I just decided to drop a little more than that on a Link. Was I partly responsible for this quest? If not I was definitely responsible for mine, which was inspired by responding to your post on the member recordings forum... weird...

m3pilot

12-27-2005, 02:52 PM

As I recall, it's a New York Tonemaster (predecessor to the Super Tone Master) on the cover. In stock form these have almost no baffle and a large chamber . . . significantly different than an STM. There's a rumor that Coltrane added a baffle made from chewing gum in his but who knows.

12-27-2005, 05:54 PM

Coltrane spent a lot of time at Frank Wells' downtown Chicago refacing studio. Frank was a superb mouthpiece craftsman, perhaps the biggest secret in the saxophone mouthpiece industry.

More and more, I'm thinking that the facing (and, to some extent, amount or lack of baffle) is what really makes a difference. A hand-finished mpc by someone who knows what they are doing will probably out-play, and respond better than, most "factory" pieces. Just a thought.......

BlueNote

12-28-2005, 12:14 AM

Alright, so I went to the music store and they didn't have any links or any metals with a small tip opening :(... so I bought a box of reeds and left. The guy working there gave me the phone # of this guy to call, so I'll try and see if this new guy carries them (he said he should).

I bought a tuner today and spent quite a bit of time in front of that, however, it is a pain to keep the Berg + Keilwerth combination in tune. The low register is easy to get in tune, but the pitch goes extremely sharp in the high register (especially A and up)- so much that lipping down will not get it in tune.

Intonation has always been the area I have struggled with most, and it doesn't appear to be getting any better. Perhaps it is the horn? (Keilwerth SX90R tenor) I've heard mild comments about Keilwerths when it comes to intonation issues. Is this something that a repairman/technician/specialist can fix? :?

Razzy

12-28-2005, 12:22 AM

I would definitely have it checked out. It may very well just be a key-height thing that an experienced tech could fix easily. The Berg, however, can sometimes cause problems in the upper register if you're used to a different design, but I know a guy who uses one and had no troubles. He practiced long tones and such with it enough for it to no longer be a problem.

I'd recommend using, in addition to the tuner, a digital keyboard or the famed "Drone Tones" CD. This allows you to use your ear and nothing else to tune, which is positively VITAL to correcting the sort of problems you're talking about.

BlueNote

12-28-2005, 12:29 AM

I haven't played on a metal mouthpiece in years, so it could just be the adjustment. I just happened to dig this one up the other day when I was looking for something else. I like the sound I get on it with my current set-up, but am afraid to go to a jam session or gig with it, since the intonation problems are much more noticable than on my other mouthpiece, which isn't the best anyway when it comes to playing in tune.

I do happen to have a digital keyboard (Casio) which I sometimes use for getting in tune.

Next weekend I'll bring the horn into this local music shop that has a good repairman and see if he can fix anything (I personally know him). I just got off the phone with the sub-repairman there, and he basically said that it could be a mouthpiece thing, or possibly a couple of the keys on the horn need to be raised or lowered, or it could be a neck problem. He said it generally is not an uncommon thing. Basically, it'll just take some tweaking to see if it does anything.

Hinzaldi

12-29-2005, 10:54 PM

I don't know where I have read this, but for as I remember, Coltrane played at the time of the Blue Train recording an Otto Link 6. Only later he started to experiment with larger pieces.

bruce bailey

12-30-2005, 05:46 AM

I heard it was a 5* but as we discussed once before, he used a LOT of these and it seemed it made no difference - he sounded great on anything.

Tryptykon

10-01-2006, 03:20 PM

Coltrane spent a lot of time at Frank Wells' downtown Chicago refacing studio. Frank was a superb mouthpiece craftsman, perhaps the biggest secret in the saxophone mouthpiece industry.

Right-O !

Tim Price told me about this some years, back.

Listen to Chicago tenormen like Johnny Griffin, Clifford Jordan,John Gilmore.

I'm sure they all went to Frank Wells,as did other prominant Link players in
that era who had a decidedly un-stock Link sound .;)

I have a NY Tonemaster that I bought a few years back that appears to be
a Frank Wells job . Plays well,too .

10-01-2006, 06:02 PM

'm sure you can find looks of info about these when you search, but... I once had a vintage Tonemaster. It gave me a very lush sound, especially gorgeous on the low end. But even the palm key notes were hard to get to speak and anything higher durn near impossible. I tried reeds as hard as I could stand. Perhaps your mileage may vary. Maybe this piece had too long a facing. It was supposedly stock but you never can be sure.

I had better luck with a vintage Hollywood Dukoff, which works for a Trane-ish tone yet repsonds easier over the range of the horn. I have found that closer facings (by today's standards) work better on these vintage pieces, say around .085, with the right reed strength.

jsweenie

11-10-2006, 08:16 AM

Although the general thought is that trane played a metal link 5* opening I believe he actually played a 7* the majority of his career(5* is really small) Mind you i play on a cannon of a piece...

Leon

11-10-2006, 03:59 PM

I owned a Frank Wells Link once - not only was the chamber bored, the window was widened also. This in my opinion, for me anyway, would be more desirable on a smaller tip mouthpiece, 5 or 6, which is what Trane supposedly played during the Blue Trane period.

jgreiner

12-10-2006, 01:34 AM

Trane definitely played on a NY ToneMaster. Don't know the size, but I've been playing on a NY ToneMaster for over 10 yrs now and absolutely love it. Mine is a factory 5* that I originally sent to JJ Babbit to open up, which they did and I played it like that for a few yrs until I had John Van Wie (RIP) work on it (and another NY ToneMaster I have). I honestly don't recall what John did to it, but again, I absolutely love it and it gives (what I think to be) a very close resemblance to 'Trane's sound. Obviously, it's not just the mouthpiece that makes the sound. More importantly, it's the player and how he/she plays the mouthpiece. When I was in college yrs ago, Guardala came out with his Brecker models and it was quite amusing to see how many people bought 'em (at about 300 bucks a pop) and automatically thought they'd sound like Brecker. NOT.
For what it's worth, I also just recently switched reeds from LaVoz Hards to Vandoren ZZ (4's). I always struggled to get a certain "edge" to my sound and while I always loved the "buzz" I got in my sound from LaVoz, a good friend of mine finally got me to try some ZZ's and holy crap......they're amazing.

This is simply MY opinion(s) and what works for me. Of course, your mileage may vary. :D

asaxman

12-10-2006, 02:11 AM

If you HAD John Coltrane's mpc, you wouldn't sound like him! You have different lips, teeth, throat, and lungs. That being said: Trane sounds great on this record, and during this time. Also- ALL mouthpieces play altissimo well! Links are fine in this register. My 7* is good for a 9th, at least, with a 2.5-3 reed.

heath

12-10-2006, 08:13 AM

A 5* is plenty big to get the job done. You don't need a 7* to get a big sound. Trane used #4 reeds. I've moved back to .095 myself from bigger pieces. I could go even smaller and still get just as big a sound.

NIMOGT

12-11-2006, 12:05 AM

The new STM NYs are $100 at samash . com so if you want to try one, it doesn't break the bank too much (or maybe it does, no idea of you finances). The mouthpiece will not give you his sound, but you can always try to emulate.

Sebastian

12-11-2006, 01:29 AM

the new STM NY's are not anything like the old tonemasters. I don't think they are supposed to be (they are "super" tone masters). I think the idea is that we're supposed to think of the STM's made in NYC, the supposed be all and end all of metal links. They play pretty good though. $0.02

nichwan

12-13-2006, 08:50 PM

I actually think he played on a very old link, these were the ones (i think) without the little bump thing on the top for the ligature to be aligned...

nichwan

12-13-2006, 08:51 PM

I also read he played a 5*, but from the sound he gets ill be banking on a 7* or higher

jgreiner

12-14-2006, 04:51 PM

I actually think he played on a very old link, these were the ones (i think) without the little bump thing on the top for the ligature to be aligned...

Nope. Look at pics. I've never seen a pic with 'Trane playing on that vintage Link you've mentioned. I've seen pics of him playing on a rubber Link, but all of the metals were NY Tone Masters. If you have a pic, I'd love to see it!

John

rini

12-14-2006, 09:14 PM

That's right . I agree with jgreiner. I saw Coltrane live 8-)

Sebastian

12-15-2006, 05:21 PM

later on he played STM's as well on the ubiquitous Mark VI. We're talking about a guy would carry a small suitcase full of mouthpieces.

rini

12-15-2006, 07:25 PM

Yeah, that's true. I think it was his son Ravi who told it first.
BTW, I saw once a picture about him playing a Selmer Classical Metal mpc. On tenor :shock:

Martinman

12-15-2006, 07:58 PM

Yeah, that's true. I think it was his son Ravi who told it first.
BTW, I saw once a picture about him playing a Selmer Classical Metal mpc. On tenor :shock:

And I bet he still sounded exactly like Trane...

nickvi

12-18-2006, 10:05 AM

Nope. Look at pics. I've never seen a pic with 'Trane playing on that vintage Link you've mentioned. I've seen pics of him playing on a rubber Link, but all of the metals were NY Tone Masters. If you have a pic, I'd love to see it!

John

from this pic, all it says to me is that he's playing a metal link, obviously "vintage" as it would be referred to now. what characteristics show the difference between the new yorks, STM's and other models? i'm really getting into the old saxophone history at the moment and if anyone has any web links for mouthpieces, setups, anything sax related, i'd love them!

whaler

12-18-2006, 06:00 PM

I never saw a picture of him playing a HR Link, but the cover of Chim Chim Cheree shows him playing a short shank Selmer Soloist (my personal favorite mouthpiece).

jgreiner

12-19-2006, 07:40 PM

I never saw a picture of him playing a HR Link, but the cover of Chim Chim Cheree shows him playing a short shank Selmer Soloist (my personal favorite mouthpiece).

My bad. You're absolutely correct! Short-shank Soloist, not a HR Link.
Still tho, I've never seen a pic with him playing an old "Coleman Hawkins" Link.

John

saxymanzach

12-19-2006, 08:16 PM

from this pic, all it says to me is that he's playing a metal link, obviously "vintage" as it would be referred to now. what characteristics show the difference between the new yorks, STM's and other models? i'm really getting into the old saxophone history at the moment and if anyone has any web links for mouthpieces, setups, anything sax related, i'd love them!
For me, the trick to distinguishing one vintage of Links from another is the shank, each era had it's own differences, this one has an obvious difference from the Floridas and the modern links because the the shank is considerably shorter and has that ring on the end. Floridas have the longest shank, and the madern ones are a tiny bit shorter than the Floridas.

saxymanzach

12-19-2006, 08:16 PM

nickvi

12-19-2006, 11:39 PM

thanks for that! i can see what you mean now from looking at other link pics :)

garyjones

12-20-2006, 03:48 AM

hey guys .. i don't know if this contributes to the discussion or not but i read a transcript of an interview done with trane in the 60s.
he said when he was in his playing fast period he was using just one mouthpiece and that at some point he took a file to it and killed it.
that was one of the points where his style changed because he could no longer play as well and had to alter his aproach. he said for a number of years all he could think about was how now he played like crap because he was an idiot and destroyed his mouthpiece. he said after a few years he forgot what the loved piece was like and moved on.
so the piece was so wonderfull and unique that even he could not replace it. We all have a suitcase of mouthpieces be that doesn't mean we don't play just one mouthpiece.

i have read some places where it was a tone master but it looks like an early ny or florida super tone master to me. i have also read where it was a 4* or a 7* or whatever but whatever number someone saw on it doesn't matter. my florida stm says 5* on the side of it but is actually .115. also the numbers on the early florida links are different than the modern numbering system.
i doubt someone who played as lang and hard as trane was playing on anything as small as people have said here. at times in my life when i have played alot i find myself moving into the 4 / 4.5 vandoren v16s in order to keep the .115 from closing off and getting out of tune and lets just say i play about 5% of the time trane spent with his mouth on the horn.

if anybody is looking for a good old florida link sometimes thoe wanne sells refaced and opened old links on ebay. but beware all the other sellers - every body has one altered by (inset your famouse refacer here) most all the claims are bogus.

as for sound the mouthpiece is just art of the package that includes saxophone neck, saxophone and human body.

jsweenie

02-09-2007, 11:45 PM

My bad. You're absolutely correct! Short-shank Soloist, not a HR Link.
Still tho, I've never seen a pic with him playing an old "Coleman Hawkins" Link.

John

Im almost posotive that it was a HR link 7*.
This was in his later days from what i know. After Blue Trane. (I personally didn't like his tone on Blue Trane.

Sivarix

02-10-2007, 06:19 PM

I remember somebody telling me Coltrane played a hard rubber on Blue Train.

tranesonic

02-10-2007, 07:36 PM

The pictures from the actual Blue Train session show Trane playing a metal Tonemaster. For the most part he played this model until he infamously "had some work done...and instead of making it better, it ruined it..." (interview with Frank Kofsky) this was a little before the "Ballads" session in 1962. There are some pictures from other sessions before this where he played some kind of hard rubber/ebonite mouthpiece, Paul Chambers' "Whims Of Chambers" for instance, but I for one don't recognise the make of this one. I can't imagine anyone not liking his sound on "Blue Train" - You don't like his sound on "I'm Old Fashioned"???? I'd be interested to know who's sound you do like! :-} After 1962 he seemed to play many different mouthpieces, there are pictures of him (backstage) with a HR Link. On the photos from the "Duke Ellington & John Coltrane" session, he can be seen playing one metal Super Tonemaster while there is another one on the piano,along with reeds. This seems to bear out the observation that he would try different combinations of reed and mouthpiece at the actual session. On the "John Coltrane & Johnny Hartman" session photos he is shown playing both metal and HR mouthpieces. It can be difficult or even impossible to determine which tracks on this, or any other albums, he played on metal and which he played on HR. But pretty much, after he ruined his Tonemaster in early '62 he played metal STMs most of the time. CAVEAT - Of course, all this means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING...