Why the F# Fingering Difference between Sax and Flute

[I. Fallon]

This may have been answered before, but I have always wondered. The flute and saxophone use a different right hand fingering for F#1/F#2. If it is because the flute has a cylindrical tube and the saxophone has a conical body, why is the only difference in the F#?

[Jazzophone]

You can actually use the sax fingering on flute. It's usually a little off in pitch, but it's good for uptempo runs especially if you're "fluent" in flute and sax and switch between the two a lot. Don't use it for long notes, though -- ugh. :D

[Jack W.]

I've always wondered about this one too. It sounds like a job for Gordon if anyone. :)

Another thing that I like about the "flute F#" is that it kind of makes up for the flute not having a chromatic F# key. For some reason I find it much easier to switch between F and F# by using this fingering, on flute at least. On sax and clarinet you have the chromatic F# key, so it's a moot point, although this fingering seems to work OK on both sax and clarinet.

None of this answers the original question, so I will pose another one to go along with it. Why on earth are low C and Eb reversed on oboe, compared to saxophone and clarinet? :P

[AMASAX]

I suspect these are some reasons for the diff:

* if you examine tone hole sizes, notice on the flute that the holes in this range are pretty much the same size, but on sax they vary considerably in size.

* on sax, these tone holes are only used(outside of altissimo) for producing two sets of tones, ala, same tones, two different octaves.

* on flute these holes are used in three sets of fingerings, adding a third octave, and that higher octave range requires different venting, so this probably has something to do with the sizing on flute.

So, add it up, and this could easily account for the difference in F# fingerings.

[Gordon (NZ)]

Just postulating here....

It is never a particularly good idea to have only one tone hole open (i.e. the next one closed) at the lower end of the air column. This tends to produce dead sounding, or out of tune notes. Examples on the sax are the D, A, and second finger C. For these notes the bad effects are compensated by an enlarged tone hole (relative to its neighbours &/or a displaced one. The flute actually is a more perfect design and actually doesn't have this situation at all except for some trill fingerings.

Following this theme, on a sax the F tone hole is usually considerably displaced up the instrument, presumably in order to correct the tuning anomalies produced by having the hole under the E key closed for F#.

As Amasax writes, there are more than two octaves to consider on flute, including, in the absence of any alternate keys, the F to F# trill fingerings. It is quite possible that any displacement would be too much of a compromise to tune all notes involved. (BTW Flute players all use the middle finger F# for E to F# trills.)

There is an appearance factor to consider for flute also. The sax has irregular objects all over the place, but the spacing of the tone holes on a flute is regular, adding a beauty to the instrument. A displaced F tone hole could look quite conspicuous and non-aesthetic.

[I. Fallon]

Lets add to the confusion. My flute teacher informed me today that most modern flutes sound more in tune on F#3 by using the saxophone right hand fingering and some performance professors are teaching this fingering.

[Jazzophone]

Use what works. My head gets all mixed up trying to decipher the mysteries of the lower stack. :shock:

[Gordon (NZ)]

I sometimes use middle finger for the third octave F3 on my Yamaha YPC62 piccolo. But then, piccolos in the third octave are a bit 'different'!

However I doubt that many flute teachers or players would agree with your teacher.

[Jazzophone]

I'm thinking that the intonation issue with the F# fingering also has to do specifically with the actual flute one is playing with, and with the player's embouchure and airstream more than a general norm. Sometimes it really IS in tune. :shock: I don't know, I'd experiment with it a bit.

[MM]

I've read postings in the flute list by several well-respected flute professionals that the RH middle finger should be considered the normal flute F#3 fingering. On my flute (Haynes Deveaux model) the pitch is better this way so I am converting over.

[MojoBari]

Middle finger F#3 is the new trend. It is more in tune on every flute I have tried. Makes you wonder why it was not a standard a long time ago. Maybe it was too easy to finger coming from E3.

Fingering E3 as 12_/___ tr2 is also being taught more as a soft, responsive E3.

[Bootman]

I checked on my Flutes here too over the last couple of days. The F#3 middle finger is significantly less sharp the ring finger version.
I will try that E3 fingering too.

[Gordon (NZ)]

Middle finger F#3 is the new trend. It is more in tune on every flute I have tried. Makes you wonder why it was not a standard a long time ago. Maybe it was too easy to finger coming from E3.

Fingering E3 as 12_/___ tr2 is also being taught more as a soft, responsive E3.

That E3 fingering is not nice going to or from Eb though. It also has a different, 'holow', 'airy' tone compared with neighbouring notes, and is very flat on my flute.

F#3 using middle finger is definitely flat on my hand made Muramatsu.

I think the standard fingerings have been settled on for good reason. Often, short cuts are advocated by those who have not got their embouchure and breath pressure up to speed. (This is frequently a cause for high note sharpness for doublers.) A bit like those who advocate on sax, a high F# key, a high G key..... (I suppose there will be more!) - when those who practice altissiomo have no problem with these notes without resorting to special keys.

[Gordon (NZ)]

And I forgot to mention, F#3 is definitely not sharp when I play it on my Muramatsu. If anything it is slightly flat with respect to neighbouring notes.

[Bootman]

The Muramatsu I had here was noticeably better in the third register as far as intonation went than my current flute is. This of course changes with each head joint too. I would suggest that if the fingering works for you then use it. I would apply the same logic to Flute top tones as for Saxophone Altissimo. There is no 100% definitely correct way of playing every note.

[MojoBari]

[quote="Gordon (NZ)" That E3 fingering is not nice going to or from Eb though.[/quote]

I agree. It is best going from D3 where I think it matches the tone clarity and intonation better on most flutes. I like to wallow in its hollowness. The _23 D3 is a harmonic of G and the 12_ E3 is a harmonic of A. It is very fluid. But it gets sharp for me at loud volumes.

There are many alternate fingerings for flute, especially in the 3rd register. The basic fingerings serve most situations but should not be dogma for the experianced player.

[saxjoephone]

My 2 cents on the F# fingerings on flute....

I'm a saxophonist by trade and a flutist for fun but I have done a lot of flute studying.

I use the 'saxophone' fingering for e-f# trills or in a major crunch if I havne't had the time to work out the passage...

however...unless I am playing fast in the 3rd octave I NEVER use the second finger on the right hand for my F# 3.

Pitch can be adusted without changing fingerings.
Listen closely...the timbre is completely different.

Do what you need to but be sure that you aren't changing tone drastically...especially in solo passages.

don't forget...music is more than pitch..it is expression

[saxtek]

I missed this thread until now. On Eb sopranino saxophone (at least on my Yanagisawa), I have to use the "flute" fingering (third finger) for F# in the upper register only. The standing wave (the vibrating air column) inside the saxophone goes a little bit beyond the first open tone hole. In the second mode (upper octave) it goes even farther down the tube, making the third finger a better choice on the smallest saxophone.

[bruce bailey]

Since this is alive again, my opinion is that flute needs to have the greater venting (leaving the E hole uncovered) as a result of the cylindrical tube being narrow and on the sax, the conical tube is not so confining. Using this, it would make sense that the smaller saxes would benenfit most in using the flute fingering. What I miss on the flute most is the fork F# and articulated G#. About 40 years ago, one of the VPs at Armstrong (a clarinet player) had a flute built up using a standard sax type of articulated G#. He loved the flute and gave it to a great flutist to try. The Flutist replied "it doesn't have a high E" which was true as the G# could not be opened when pressing the RH keys. In regard to the newer flutes being OK with the sax F#, this would be true as the Cooper scale (and similar) have the RH holes placed at closer intervals.

[Gordon (NZ)]

..."it doesn't have a high E"...

I think you mean third octave Eb, not E.

[bruce bailey]

Correct, I meant Eb!!!