What's that sax? The sound is from Heaven.

[usda]

I don't know where to put this...

I play student saxs...and considering my budget and talent...that's ok...
but the other month on a very brief spot on TV...public tv I believe...

was this young black man playing an alto solo in church. He was interrupted or somehow stopped and started again.

That sound that came out was like something out of this world...in it's delicacy and sweetness.

I don't believe he was a professional...but obviously good enough. The question is what alto's are there available to us mortals...that will give that incredibly sweet sound. Mouthpieces to help?

And I listen to lots of jazz...and players that can carry the day...but generally I never hear a sound like that black guy displayed. I believe he had a very good instrument...it might be more used in classical music than jazz or rock.

Any hints...or is it just the most expensive horn....somewhere in New York or Chicago...anywhere but were I am or what I can afford.

If this sounds like little and confused...so be it....:?


If mods move this thread please email me where it is moved to, in case someone answers. Thanks...Donaldo

[singlereed]

The bad news for you is that he would sound almost exactly the same on your student horn, and that you would sound the same as you do now, on his horn. The equipment makes a small difference to sound compared with technique, although of course much of this forum is concerned with the subtle effects that instruments and mouthpieces can have on sound. My guess is that it would be his articulation and vibrato that would have charmed you, and the best thing to do is to find a really good teacher whose sound you admire and get some lessons.

[usda]

I am not going to argue with your point...it is valid enough. But I have two alto's...one an early Bundy and recently picked up an Italian made alto, at a pawn shop...having it repadded now.

I use the same Meyer's MP #5, further tweeked by a tech who prides himself on those things. The Bundy is a fun instrument...low Bflat to high C is fine...the palm keys are painful to listen too, for me. The Italian sax, looks like a copy of a Conn...has altogether a better sound, particularly in the upper register (maybe after its worked over...it will be good all the way down).

The point being I can tell the difference in sound, while still being me that is doing the playing.

The old Bundy, which is tight, well built...easily played, has a courser sound, although not unpleasant. The other sax is somehow more delicate sounding, we me and the same Mp.

All things being the same...some saxs have different potentials...else there would be one sax for all...a unisax!

Paul Desmond and Art Pepper...could play anything well...but some of that sound comes from very good horns.

I wish I had more on the player on TV...but the section was too short...being a discouse on religion more than music. The instrument in his hands looked like a high end horn...and certainly sounded like it.

Perhaps one of the Selmer's.

I might add, being in a large building like the cathedral...certainly was a help, I would think, in his sound. Since I play in a large closet...where there is no reverb of anykind. I can see the difference there. And I am not shy on the concept of lessons...just that I pay for my kids lessons and it doesn't leave a lot for me.

[sinkdraiN]

The bad news for you is that he would sound almost exactly the same on your student horn, and that you would sound the same as you do now, on his horn. The equipment makes a small difference to sound compared with technique, although of course much of this forum is concerned with the subtle effects that instruments and mouthpieces can have on sound. My guess is that it would be his articulation and vibrato that would have charmed you, and the best thing to do is to find a really good teacher whose sound you admire and get some lessons.

This is a good answer to your question

[JL]

Leaving aside the question of how good your embouchure is, etc., and since you really want to know what horn will at least help you get that tone, I'll say this:

Late '20s Buescher True Tone.

It's still going to be up to you, though. Long tones, etc.

[GHawk]

One thing that I've noticed about my own particular sound...notice I'm qualifying my statement by saying MY sound. While playing different horns and different pieces I feel like I sound vastly different on different setups. However, the recordings of me sound like me - for better or worse - no matter what horn I'm playing. The only way that I can change my sound drastically is to switch to a classical mouthpiece and to use a different embochure/airstream (from my classical days). A new axe and chops in a box may change someone, but, alas, I'm still the same ol' me.:D

YMMV

Greg

[JL]

It's certainly true that you can't escape your own sound, for better or worse. But both my wife and my band's soundman have told me they hear a difference between my two tenors. They both prefer the Buescher over the MKVI, as do I. On the other hand, my guitar player says they sound the same to him. So who knows?

[Mr Yohe]

The bad news for you is that he would sound almost exactly the same on your student horn, and that you would sound the same as you do now, on his horn. The equipment makes a small difference to sound compared with technique, although of course much of this forum is concerned with the subtle effects that instruments and mouthpieces can have on sound. My guess is that it would be his articulation and vibrato that would have charmed you, and the best thing to do is to find a really good teacher whose sound you admire and get some lessons.


With the above in mind, and as a beginner, I am forced to ask :

why the endless discussion about sax vs sax, mouthpiece vs mouthpiece, ligatures ...ad nauseum amongst sax players. Are the differences really so great to the average player / listener ? Is all such talk simply created and proliferated by marketing hype and the relentless consumer cycle?

I am not trying to be deliberately provocative in my question, I am a newcomer with little experience of different saxophones and am interested in your thoughts.

[Gandalfe]

why the endless discussion about sax vs sax, mouthpiece vs mouthpiece, ligatures ...ad nauseum amongst sax players. Are the differences really so great to the average player / listener ? Is all such talk simply created and proliferated by marketing hype and the relentless consumer cycle?I suspect that many of us, who do not practice enough or don't take lessons are searching for the magic instrument/mouthpiece/reed/neckstrap that will make us sound like Kenny G/Paul Desmond/Grover Washington Jr/<insert the name of your favorite sax player here>. Still it's nice to have an instrument that you really like based on years of searching and trying them out. Some of us enjoy the search more than the playing of music. 8-)

[JL]

Mr Yohe, your question is a very good one, considering all the statements (many of them contradictory) you read on this forum. I'll give you my take on it, for what it's worth, and no doubt others will do the same.

I think you'll find universal agreement on the fact that the most important factor is the player. First and foremost you have to put in the time and energy to learn to play your instrument, no matter what brand it is, and to learn the music. Your ability to play well, or not, is the overriding factor. Beyond that, the issue gets murkier. I would contend that the type of horn, mpc, reed, etc. does make a difference in how you sound. The real question is how?

I see it in two ways.

First there is the horn/mpc/reed itself (I'll speak of all three together since each of these items has an effect, but simply refer to them as the "horn"), and how it sounds to the audience. Some horns have different characteristics or tendencies. Some are brighter sounding or darker, or more "free blowing." The ergonomics differ to some extent, so some horns feel different than others, some are more mechanically sound, etc. As I said in my last post, some people can hear the difference between horns, and some cannot. I definitely can hear a difference live, but am hard-pressed to hear it on a recording. I actually think the differences between mpcs are greater than that between different horn brands, but that's debatable.

Second, there is the perception of how the horn sounds and feels to the player. This may be what is really important because it will affect how you play. Even if the audience can't tell the difference in tone quality between horn A and horn B, if you, the player, like how horn B feels and sounds better than horn A, you'll almost certainly play, and ultimately sound, better on horn B. Whew, sorry for the convoluted sentence, but hopefully you get my drift.

So, yes, imo the type of horn (and mpc/reed) you play does make a difference. To some extent, others will hear a difference in tone quality, and perhaps to a larger extent, the player will hear and feel a difference. That is why it is such an individual thing and also why it is ridiculous to say "such and such" horn or mpc is the "best there is." There are some areas of wide agreement that can point you in the right direction. Most would agree that a MKVI or a Conn10M is a better horn than a modern Taiwanese knock off, for example. But beyond that you have to try them yourself.

Well, that's my take on it. And I had no idea I'd go on this long about it.

[fballatore]

I suspect that many of us, who do not practice enough or don't take lessons are searching for the magic instrument/mouthpiece/reed/neckstrap that will make us sound like Kenny G/Paul Desmond/Grover Washington Jr/<insert the name of your favorite sax player here>. Still it's nice to have an instrument that you really like based on years of searching and trying them out. Some of us enjoy the search more than the playing of music. 8-)

Eureka!!! That's it!!! It's my neckstrap that's been holding me back from sounding like Sanborn! Do you know what neckstrap Sanborn uses? I can't wait to sound just like him!

:D

Oh, and regarding the sax sound from heaven... Our Lord plays a YAS-62 Mark II. (And so do I!)

[hgiles]

My 1949 Buescher Big B tenor and my Chicago Jazz tenor couldn't sound more differerent from each other.

[Ari]

Playing devils advocate for a bit:twisted:

Most players notice singificant differences in horns, mpc, setup but as mentioned, when the recording is actually played back it often sounds very similar.

I think much of the difference that we experience from different setups is feedback from the horn - the system.
Some horns have more resistance, some setups have gaps for certain notes or ranges. The player feels this when playing

Its like the difference between the old 69 hp nissan sentra that I used to own and the 200hp maxima that I have now. To an ouside observer the driving style may have seemed the same but being behind the wheel gives a totally different feel.

[usda]

Thanks for the replies...there are two ways to read my orginal question...the guy is new and really hasn't put in the time...his thinking is elementry and his mistake is not in years of practice.

The second...is what I meant, I know how I play, having close to 15 years total experience...but with a forty year gap. I have played again this last two years...and am making progress. Not likely to be on any record labels soon (bucking for next life line up)...but horns and set ups do sound different to us players...

Let's face it...most of us play for our pleasure...and if we give pleasure to others...that is a plus...but it is ourselves we are most looking to please.

I live in a very rural area of So Oregon...nothing within a hundred miles except student...high school...instruments available. I don't have the experience, nor am I likely to get it easy...to determine the difference between horns etc.

Thus listening and coming to a joint like this...

The true tone...from the 20's sounds like something worth looking into.

Thanks again.

Are they companies who work with isolated individuals...that is ship horns, allow a week or so trial, perhaps, mail it back and try another until, the right horn, for our ears, is found? I assume paying freight and insurance would be on me...

[JL]

Are they companies who work with isolated individuals...that is ship horns, allow a week or so trial, perhaps, mail it back and try another until, the right horn, for our ears, is found? I assume paying freight and insurance would be on me...

Yes, most of the reputable dealers will offer this. Saxquest, vintagesax, etc.

[alsdiego]

This is an interesting topic. I imagine that the endless discussions over sax serial nos., reeds, mouthpieces, even ligatures, necks, and on and on must seem quite intimidating to a newcomer.

I think by far the most important thing is to have a sax that's well set up. This is so important that a Bundy II can easily outplay a Selmer Mark VI if the VI is leaking. So whether you just bought a student horn, or you're using Uncle Louie's 1949 Buescher Aristocrat, get the horn to a tech to make sure it's well set up and leak free. That is incredibly important. If you're using a 5 digit Selmer Mark VI, you're wasting your time.... e-mail me and I'll take it off your hands 8-)

Second, get a decent mouthpiece that has a reasonable tip opening, and don't use too hard a reed.

After that, it's practice time!

Having listed what I think are the practical points, there's also the emotional side. Maybe owning a top of the line Selmer has emotional meaning for you. I for one am very passionate about my horns. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, IMO. Just don't confuse it with what will make you a better musician. It's just another aspect of the saxophone thing. I have a friend who practically sleeps with his Bach Stradivarius trumpet, but he sounds about the same on an old student beater horn. It's an emotional, not a practical thing, and that's ok, too. It's just that we human beings often have a need to justify our emotional choices, when in fact they can't be justified on any rational level.

[robbieg]

Having listed what I think are the practical points, there's also the emotional side. Maybe owning a top of the line Selmer has emotional meaning for you. I for one am very passionate about my horns. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, IMO. Just don't confuse it with what will make you a better musician. It's just another aspect of the saxophone thing. I have a friend who practically sleeps with his Bach Stradivarius trumpet, but he sounds about the same on an old student beater horn. It's an emotional, not a practical thing, and that's ok, too. It's just that we human beings often have a need to justify our emotional choices, when in fact they can't be justified on any rational level.

DEFINATLY. I think a lot of it is psychosomatic. We think we sound quite a bit different on different horns... when in reality, its pretty much similar. Of course then again, when we think we are playing better, a lot of times we do play better.

I think saxes are almost like vocal mics, sure they can change what your voice sounds like a bit, but when it comes down to it... its still your voice that's creating the sound. Its like saxes, you can have a different sax, but when it comes down to itm its your "voice" that is creating the sound.

[BlueNote]

In my opinion, unless it is a really worn-out, leaking antique horn with broken keys with a split reed, you can sound great on anything with the right combination of mouthpiece and reed, sometimes better than pro horns.

A great sound comes from within, I have heard it and seen it. When you achieve a professional tone on a student model horn from scratch (which is what I did) -- which takes a LOT of time and patience -- you realize how precious tone can be in overall development, and how some people do not put tone first when working on their style in the early stages.

Bird had a great tone on just about any horn because he spent years and years working just on tone, getting his sound developed... something a lot of people skip or rush past. If you can get a superb tone on a student model horn, you can sound good on anything. It's sad seeing beginners on Mark VIs, because they assume that a good horn = good tone.

It DOES require some equipment changes through trial-and-error, but it shouldn't take too many changes to get closer. In my opinion, if it takes you dozens of mouthpieces to get you to your destination, then you are relying too much on the equipment.

[catseyeweb]

The perceived differences between 2 saxes can mostly be eliminated with proper setup. I've seen 3 "experts" in blind tests humiliated trying to consistantly tell differences between properly set up student and pro horns.

[gary]

in his best Emily Natella voice: "never mind"

[SAXISMYAXE]

Charlie Parker could play the beejeebers out of just about any horn he picked up, regardless of make/model or state of adjustment. Or so it has been written in countless published accounts FWIW.

Selecting a horn for an experienced player is more an issue of getting the right fit (think bluejeans;)) as much as anything else. How a player experiences/perceives his over all sound from a given horn makes as important an impact on the performance as the way the listener hears it.

[kavala]

Eureka!!! That's it!!! It's my neckstrap that's been holding me back from sounding like Sanborn! Do you know what neckstrap Sanborn uses? I can't wait to sound just like him!

:D



Actually the neckstrap does make a difference.
Some can choke of the air supply or make you alter your position.
Try lifting the weight off your strap. You will hear a big change.

[thehighend]

usda, I have little experience with vintage makes, but I have tried almost all the current models of alto and tenor saxes from the major lines (Selmer, Yamaha, Yanagisawa, Keilwerth, B&S, and R&C). While all of these makes include excellent horns, my vote goes most consistently to Yanagsiawa, at least for alto and tenor horns. I love all six of the aforementioned companies, but you can't go wrong with Yanagisawa.