Refaced Link STM question

[CK]

Hello,
I have an Otto Link STM 7* that was refaced. I don't know how old it is as it came with a used sax, but I believe it's a current production model. The table has been flattened and the rails have been balanced, but the refacing took off the gold colored plating and has exposed bare metal on the table and rails. The metal is silver colored, which I am suprised by because I thought the STMs are made of brass. I'm just wondering if I should be concerned about putting the exposed metal in my mouth, and also what kind of metal it is....it doesn't look like brass, it looks like a silver material.

Thanks!

[Bill Mecca]

Brass mpcs are silver plated before being gold plated,the brass is too porous and would absorb the gold... at least that is what I have been told.

[EZ]

Eventually, your brass might start to show through and you might not like the taste of it. Otherwise, no need to concern yourself with it.

Interesting that you are seeing silver but not brass. The layer of silver is very thin, so for it to have been refaced, table flattened, etc - you would quickly wear through the gold and silver plate to expose the brass underneath.

Perhaps the table was nearly flat to begin with and not much material needed to be removed.

[CK]

I'm surprised to see it, too. As long as it's not a health concern it's cool, it's a nice mouthpiece.
Thanks a lot for the information.
Here's what it looks like:

[Giganova]

I got my Link Millenium refaced and I can see the brass where the nickel was taken off.

[MojoBari]

You can see the original gold, then the silver, then the bare brass at the base of the window "U" where a high spot was taken down. Looks like it would have a very short facing to me based on where the material was taken off. I doubt you will taste any brass.

[Grumps]

Didn't a few transitional pieces have nickel plate under the gold?

Yum.

[Dr G]

Brass mpcs are silver plated before being gold plated,the brass is too porous and would absorb the gold... at least that is what I have been told.

Told by whom?

It is not a matter of porosity - nor diffusivity.

The issue is one of trying to obtain a better match between atomic spacings of the metals. Too great a mismatch and the bonding is weak.

[MojoBari]

A Caswell rep told me gold can be plated directly on brass, the color turns out darker. It may not bond as well...

[MojoBari]

BTW, some brass tastes bad after an hour of playing while some seems fine. I'm playing bare brass on tenor now. But I had a Runyon Quantum metal than I needed to get plated.

[Dr G]

A Caswell rep told me gold can be plated directly on brass, the color turns out darker. It may not bond as well...

I think that was issue with some of Barone's mouthpieces I had - the plating came off easily and there was no underplate of silver. Sure, you can plate directly but for best, long-lasting, results...

[MojoBari]

Now that we mentioned it, I refaced a couple of the Asian-made Selmer-looking MPs sold on eBay. On one of them the plating was flaking off like the skin of an Onion. The other was a little better. They were Gold on brass. Probably would have been OK if I had not broken through the "skin" with my refacing work.

[Grumps]

I refaced a couple of the Asian-made Selmer-looking MPs sold on eBay.


Do you actually play those, or just use them to hone skills? I'd be very worried about lead content in a no name piece from Asia. Or actually, more worried...

[MojoBari]

I refaced them for a client.

[Dr G]

Do you actually play those, or just use them to hone skills? I'd be very worried about lead content in a no name piece from Asia. Or actually, more worried...

Lead in brass - it's there to make brass destined for machining. The addition of lead makes it "chip" easier so the tool doesn't clog. Even when there is lead in the brass, it is not free to easily diffuse to the surface and does not act as a constant source of lead. Check the material safety data sheets (MSDS) or do some diffusion calculations (as I have). I don't consider free-machining brass to be a concern for exposure to lead.

[Grumps]

Would that depend upon how much lead is added to the mix? Also, what if the plating is gone and the piece begins to corrode?

[EZ]

I refaced them for a client.

That's like taking a pet goldfish to the vet.

[Dr G]

Would that depend upon how much lead is added to the mix?

Sure, there is a solubility limit...


Also, what if the plating is gone and the piece begins to corrode?

... and you swallow the corrosion products???

This, too, shall pass. 8-)

I played Barone 'pieces that had lost some of their plating and never worried about it. Others love to have and hold their horns once stripped of finish.

Bottom line: If you are worried about it then, regardless of the facts, you are probably better off without it.

[Grumps]

Sure, there is a solubility limit....

But would adding more lead (if that's cheaper to do) make it easier for the lead to reach the surface?





... and you swallow the corrosion products???

This, too, shall pass. 8-)

But could that corrosion bring more lead to the surface?

I've dumped all of my metal pieces for my horns, but for a Metal Selmer Classic that works well with my VI soprano. Not initially out of fear of lead/brass poisoning, but just because I've found better HR alternatives. I went the metal direction years ago while in high school, thinking metal was just cooler, and more for jazz; and of course, different from what most had at the time.
But seeing all these corroding vintage metal pieces on the market, and knowing that refacing metal pieces will leave exposed brass (without replating), well... it has me wondering, and yeah, a bit worried. So I don't think I'm going back to metal anytime soon, but do appreciate a scientific analysis of why my concerns might be a bit unrealistic; if that in fact is the case.

As an aside, what about stainless steel? A better alternative for those fearful of brass/lead poisoning, or are there demons lurking insde that as well?

[EZ]

I have a contact allergy to stainless steel and silver plate - over prolonged periods (like the back of a wristwatch). However, I've not ever played a stainless piece long enough to know if I would develop a reaction. I've not seen any hypoallergenic solid titanium mouthpieces, unfortunately. There are some aluminum pieces out there, but there's concern that ingesting aluminum can aggravate Alzheimer's disease.

I think there's demons lurking in just about everything - maybe just not ones as big as we fear. And those demons pale in comparison with what we breathe in or eat or drink on a daily basis. Consider people's horns that take the form of mildew infested Habi-trails. EEEEeeeeYUCK!!

So if someone was particularly concerned about lead, sulfur, chromium, rat droppings or even the unfair, devastating economic impact of the artificially adjusted Yen and Yuan... (sigh) ... they might want to stick with good 'ol plastic Brilharts and Goldentones.

[Mike Ruhl]

Grumps, aren't you afraid of sulphur poisoning from playing those hard rubber mpcs? You do realize that it's the sulphur leaching out to the surface turns them brown, right? :sick:

[Dr G]

But would adding more lead (if that's cheaper to do) make it easier for the lead to reach the surface?

But could that corrosion bring more lead to the surface?

I think you missed my point: The lead is NOT free to diffuse to the surface - at least not in our lifetimes.

Have you considered playing keyboards? I was going to suggest bassoon or oboe but there are still issues of bacteria breeding in the cane (much as they do in saxophone reeds).

Hmmm, I guess I never before considered music to be such a contact sport.

[CK]

I appreciate the chance to learn about these things. There are some people that believe Vincent van Gogh's madness was due in part to the lead in the paint he used....I don't know, I always thought that lead poisoning caused brain damage, not genius, but this idea is shared by some art historians.

It seems that the people most exposed to the possible hazards of mouthpiece metals would be the manufacturers and refacers. Do these people take special precautions? There must be an established body of knowledge amongst the pros who work on mouthpieces concerning these health concerns, both for themselves and the consumer/client. Do we know of any one actually having a problem or getting sick?

[Merlin]

So if someone was particularly concerned about lead, sulfur, chromium, rat droppings or even the unfair, devastating economic impact of the artificially adjusted Yen and Yuan... (sigh) ... they might want to stick with good 'ol plastic Brilharts and Goldentones.

I actually find working on plastic pieces the worst, in terms of irritation. Definite face mask material.

[MojoBari]

Geez, do you what kind of stuff they use to make plastics!!!!

[Mike Ruhl]

I dunno, but if you find out, don't tell Grumps!

[Grumps]

Geeze guys... certainly there are plenty of scary things out there, but sucking on a corroding hunk of brass just doesn't do it for me. Without even considering lead, you can still get nasty skin irritations if you're sensitive to the contents of brass; and that is a serious concern for some folks. You can make fun of my concerns regarding lead, but they're just that... concerns. I mean, it is lead we're talking about, and it is going in the mouth and that's why I'm here asking. It's nice to know the lead won't leak out in our lifetimes, but there's only one guy I know of that can make a bassoon rock... and one is probably enough*.







*just teasing Tim

[Mike Ruhl]

We're just poking at you! Don't take it personally!

We wouldn't do it if we really liked you, you know...

...that's, I say, that's another joke, son. You're supposed to laugh!

[Grumps]

And just think Mike, I was going to tease you today for leaving the Small Tip Club... looking to trade up on that Vandoren piece... but of course held back... until now.

[Mike Ruhl]

SIZE DOESN'T MATTER!!!

My wife told me so.


Membership requirements for tenor players to join the Small Tips Club is .100". Says so right here (http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=28577&highlight=wee+lil).

Besides, it's not the tip size that bothers me about the T15 - it's the short facing curve. I can play just as small a tip as you can!

Okay, enough of that silliness...