Who is responsible for shipping insurance - buyer or seller?

[mnash]

Hi, folks - I'm dismayed to report that I am in the midst of a conflict with another SOTW'er about a mouthpiece I just sold him.

Several days have gone by since I mailed the mouthpiece, and the buyer reports it hasn't arrived yet. He asked if I had sent it insured. I said no. He was incensed, and sent me an email telling me I was an irresponsible seller, and cheap, too (I don't deny the latter, I don't have a lot of money). He's demanding a complete refund if it doesn't arrive soon.

During our pre-sale discussions, I said I would ship it Priority Mail, and asked for $5 shipping. Neither he nor I mentioned anything about insurance.
I explained that I thought it was up to the buyer to request and pay for shipping insurance. Not all mouthpieces I've bought off other SOTW'ers were sent insured, and I have insured them when selling only when the buyer specifically requests it.

I deeply regret not discussing the matter with him beforehand; obviously I should have. But, can anyone lend an opinion - did I do wrong? If the mouthpiece never arrives, should I be expected to give a refund? Obviously, I'm reluctant to make the loss entirely mine.

Please don't ask who it is, it's between he and I and I don't want to inflame the situation. If he wants to weigh in with his side, that's fine, but that's up to him.

Thanks for your opinions.
mnash

[SAXISMYAXE]

It is up to the buyer to make sure that insurance is taken out on the item PRIOR to shipping, and up to the seller to make sure that this takes place upon shipping per the buyers request. The buyer would be responsible for the additional expense too, unless an agreement to the contrary was struck.

I'd say you shouldn't be blamed since he didn't specify that he wanted to pay for insurance, although if I were you,
I would have sent it Fed Ex or another shipper that can provide a tracking number, a benifit to both sides of the transaction.

The USPS rarely loses a package, so it is probably just delayed by the Christmas mail rush.

[fballatore]

Well, in my opinion, and I'm not a lawyer, but I'd say it's up to both parties to protect themselves. However, as a seller, if I'm selling an expensive piece, I'd make sure I was covered if something happened in shipping. My understanding (if the principle applies in this case) is that "title" doesn't pass until the item is received by the buyer, so in this case, the seller is responsible.

Whenever I sell anything here or on eBay, I insist on insuring the shipment (usually the buyer pays), and as Mike says, only ship via a trackable method.

All that said, I think this is all too premature to be discussing. My guess is that you shipped the piece no earlier 11/30, from Washington state, and based on where you're shipping to, it's too early to say it's been lost, especially during the holiday season. I fully expect to see a next post from you saying "Never mind, the piece arrived safe and sound."

[rogerb40uk]

Under English Law, I believe that, provided the seller has evidence of having posted it, it ceases to be his responsibility after posting time.
Of course many sellers do take responsibility for safe delivery, by using 'safer' carriers and insurance, but they don't have to.
(I could be wrong about this ;) )

For a really unreliable postal service, try the Spanish Correos :angry9:

[deblcooper]

When we ship, we always recommend shipping with the post office service that provides a tracking number. It is usually about 200% more expensive and give the shopper the opportunity to reply if A-post or First Class shipping is preferred.

We then follow up and make very clear that if they pay for only the First Class or A-post, the item will not be insured and if lost, it is not our responsibility. We then ask for a confirmation that they understand this.

Knock on wood, nothing has been lost. but if that day comes, we have email correspondence.

With your case, it isn't clear this was communicated.

Hopefully, the customer isn't trying to pull a fast one by receiving the mouthpiece, seeing it wasn't insured, contacted you that he didn't receive it to "have his cake and eat it, too". Not much you can do, in such a case.

If he hasn't received it after a month, refund his money and mark it up to a learning experience.

Next time, cya.

deb

[gary]

Wait a minute. If I pay for something I expect to receive it and the transaction is not complete until I do. It seems to me it is the responsibility of whoever is selling it to make good on the money I send him. Are you folks saying that if I would pay someone for a mpc and it never reaches me I am the one who takes it in the shorts? That's just wrong.

To answer the question specificly, I insure everything I send to someone for the reasons cited above. Until they actually recieve it, it is my responsibility. If they don't recieve it then I should refund their money. And after all, it is their money until they receive the purchased item.

The money I would refund would not come directly out of my pocket, though, but from the insurance claim. This way the buyer gets his money back, and on the other hand, if he's trying to stiff me he's gotta wait until the post office confirms that it is indeed lost. This way neither the buyer or seller is out of any money. I just can't fathom sending something someone paid for and when they don't receive it washing my hands and keeping their money. I'm sure I'm just missing something and would appreciate anyone filling me in.

[SAXISMYAXE]

I think you will find that most mail order transactions whether: Retail Merchant, Ebay, For Sale Board etc. either have a policy that the buyer MUST pay for added insurance to buy the item, or they offer it as an option at the buyer's discretion. Either way, the BUYER is the one responsible for paying for this "Extra" assurance. I know of no vendor who just absorbs or "eats" the cost of insurance as part of the deal, especially for higher ticket items.

If the product is never received, no insurance was requested or required, and it was agreed by both parties that it would be shipped via a carrier/rate that doesn't provide a tracking number, it would become a civil legal matter if not rectified by the parties involved. Additionally, mail fraud could be filed in some cases if the USPS was used as the carrier. That would be the next step one would have to take should this situation go to the next level.

Is insurance a smart idea for both buyer and seller? Absolutely. is it required by law or as a matter of course? No.

[Mark5047]

Even insurance does not guarantee you a speedy resolution - I had something shipped to me, which was damaged in shipment. UPS came to pick the item up for inspection, and at this point I do not have the item, nor the settlement. When I question UPS about it they tell me all communications have to go between the shipper and them - which leaves the buyer out in the cold essentially.
Ultimately I am not concerned since there is a paper trail, and eventually I will get this resolved but it is sure a pain in the butt until we get there. It is odd that UPS will not communicate with the person who PAID for the item, but I guess that is their policy.
Good luck in any event!

[gary]

Thanks for the answers guys. Well, I suppose in the future I'll ask a buyer if s/he wants insurance and if not, though, what happens if they never get the item? Do they file with the shipper? I thought the persone shipping something (the one who paid the shipper) would be the one to file.

Taking this one step further, if a buyer doesn't receive an item but it is up to the shipper to file, what is the motivation for the shipper to file? I mean he's got his money. Is the attitude then, that it's just the buyers tough luck?

I don't understand the ethics here, and I'm not meaning to be stubborn. I just don't understand it ethically.

[saxmanglen]

Within months of the late Jon Van Wie passing he had redone a Meyer 6m for me. He had shipped it to me USPS insured. It never showed up.

As the shipper, he had to contact the post office file a claim and wait. I had very little involvement in the whole thing. He did get some reimbursement but it took several weeks.

He obtained an early Babbitt 6m and redid the work and I still have, today, a fine playing alto Meyer. He was a stand up guy for sure!

[fballatore]

Are you folks saying that if I would pay someone for a mpc and it never reaches me I am the one who takes it in the shorts? That's just wrong.

That's not what I was saying... I agree with you.

[SAXISMYAXE]

Gary,
As we have all experienced at one time or another, not all vendors out there use ethics in their business practices. Picking who you buy from is as important as picking what you buy.

If I sold a lot of items mail order, I'd make it my policy that the buyer has to pay for a shipping method that provides a tracking number, and they must have the item insured.
This isn't fool proof, but it does cut down somewhat on potential liability issues, and scamming.

[gary]

Thanks folks. I just don't deal with eBay or do much selling/buying from other than established dealers. I know what I think is fair and will use that in my private dealings but you've made more aware of what to look out for and what needs to be asked "aloud" vs assumed. Thanks for the topic, mnash.

[JimD]

With the coming of eBay it is a regular occurence for sellers to say that once the thing is posted it's not their problem. We see this so often that we take it for granted. Actually I won't buy from anyone who says this because, as Gary said, they have my money and it's mine until I receive the goods and if I don't get them they're going to give me grief. If I don't receive the goods I will want a refund. Insurance isn't for the buyers benefit it's for the seller's because the seller is liable to make good. That's why the shipping compnay deals with the seller. Sure, ask the buyer to pay for the insurance or get them to give a disclaimer if they don't want to pay, you've changed the balance of the contract then and they are agreeing to take a risk, but otherwise it's the seller's responsibility.

[rogerb40uk]

Well, that may be how it is under US Law, JimD, and maybe how it should be, but I'm pretty sure that, under English Law, insurance and follow-up is the purchaser's responsibility.

It's 'yours' once it has been despatched.

As has been suggested, let the buyer beware :cry:

[mnash]

Wow, I figured I might be lucky to get a couple responses for such an uninteresting thread, but this is great!

Obviously, there is a diversity of opinion out there. There is no "standard", as far as I can tell.

As it relates to my current predicament, based on the opinions of my esteemed fellow SOTW members, I should probably accept some responsiblity for not thinking of discussing insurance during the sale. It never occurred to me. At the same time, based on what I've read, it is not a safe assumption that all sellers will automatically insure items without any request to do so, and the buyer of my mouthpiece probably shouldn't have assumed that I would send it insured when I only specified $5 for Priority Mail.

Suffice to say I've learned my lesson. I don't know how the current issue will wind up, but when buying or selling in the future, I'll be sure that shipping insurance is at least discussed beforehand. Perhaps in future postings of items for sale, I should follow the example of some folks and state that shipping insurance is mandatory, and increase the shipping cost to accomodate it.

As far as I know, the buyer has yet to receive the mouthpiece. Whether or not I should be solely liable for the loss, if it never arrives, is a question I'll try to deal with if and when it comes up. For what it's worth, I'm not really worried about a scam, as has been suggested, since the fellow is a reputable member of fairly long standing.

Thanks for your enlightening responses and perspectives. I've let myself get all anxious about this, I should just let it go, and go play some sax, it's great therapy...

[mnash]

About 10 days later, the mpc finally made it there. Whew. Must be a new Priority Mail record.

[Cameron Holt]

The last time I was at the post office planning on shiipping something with insurance, the USPS worker informed me that without a receipt insurance is worthless.

Since I don't have reciepts for my vintage mouthpieces showing the price and that I actually owned them, does this really mean I can't claim on the insurance? Has anyone successfully filed a claim without a receipt? Just curious...

Thanks,
Cameron

[Grumps]

As a side note, be on the lookout for sellers who ship F.O.B. (free on board). Basically it means once it's past the seller's door, the buyer assumes risk of loss. As for insurance, I don't even believe you can file a claim until three weeks has past since mailing. Then yeah, you had better have your paperwork in order; including proof of the value of your item. If you're using the regular mail, sellers should definitely spring for Delivery Confirmation; just to keep unscrupulous buyers in check.

[thehighend]

Wait a minute. If I pay for something I expect to receive it and the transaction is not complete until I do. It seems to me it is the responsibility of whoever is selling it to make good on the money I send him.

Precisely. Incidentally, this is exactly what virtually all buyers should expect from a seller. If I order something from any online seller (whether a B2C or C2C transaction), I certainly expect to receive something. If I don't, that is obviously the seller's problem.

That is why credit-card companies let buyers dispute a charge in such situations.

[Ari]

The last time I was at the post office planning on shiipping something with insurance, the USPS worker informed me that without a receipt insurance is worthless.

Since I don't have reciepts for my vintage mouthpieces showing the price and that I actually owned them, does this really mean I can't claim on the insurance? Has anyone successfully filed a claim without a receipt? Just curious...

Thanks,
Cameron
You will need to establish fair value - so if it sold at auction - the auction sale page from ebay will suffice. Otherwise you will have to show what a comparable piece sells for

[neilangierof]

In the case where the instrument gets damaged during shipping, is the shipper supposed to reimburse the buyer if he has paid for insurance on it?

[deblcooper]

Hi Neil,

Short version... the person who actually arranges and pays the shipper is usually reimbursed.

If the shipping was arranged and paid by the seller after receiving the order (and money) from the customer, the seller receives the money and has to deal with processing the claim.

all sellers have different policies when it comes to reimbursing the customer after damage in shipping. If the instrument is damaged in shipping and insurance was paid for, there is a long (sometimes painful) process for the seller to receive the reimbursement from the shipping company.

From personal experience as a seller, this can take up take 6 months as the shipper will take time to justify the damage with the seller sending photos and more to verify the claim. Sometimes the instrument itself is kept if a damage refund is issued.

There are also times when the full amount is not reimbursed. The buyer and seller must agree if the insurance is for the value of the instrument or just the volume of the package it is sent in. Some shippers do not reveal this until something is lost or damage and both the seller and buyer are stuck negotiating the amount to be reimbursed.

As a buyer, ALWAYS be very clear about what you expect when you pay for insurance.

As a seller, we have taken precautions so the full value of the instrument is covered (learned from experience) unless the customer doesn't want to pay the extra amount for this service. Then we are ALWAYS clear that the customer is at risk of loosing money and the product.

Unfortunately, not all sellers do this.

[kerry]

Wow, this is a really old thread, why not make a new one? Anyway, for any sellers out there, there is a easy cost way to send post office and know if the item was received or lost. Simply use the cheapest standard shipping method and pay the $2 fee to select signature comfirmation. This shows proof the item was sent and received. You can also insure for $200 for a little over $2, so I dont see why someone wouldnt do this regardless if it is addressed on both sides or not. As a seller, Ive always though until the item is received, it is my problem. Unlike UPS, USPS is extremely good at getting the signature at delivery, in fact they have never not done this in the many many poackages Ive sent. So around $5 max in extra fee's covers you in all areas! Id say money well spent on both ends!

[neilangierof]

Hi deblcooper, does that mean I can go ahead with the repairs for now? And then provide evidence for the repair cost? Like an invoice with the name of the repair shop etc? Or do I have to wait for the shipper to access damages? I'm clueless!