Rich or Stupid??

[Ptrick]

Granted the title was used to get a rise out of you and help me sort out something that puzzles me.
As a mouthpiece maker, I know what it costs to make and sell a mouthpiece. But all I ever read about on these Forums is about pieces that far exceed any expense that I can justify.
Are the marketing "geniuses" correct in pricing a product so high that the consumer will think "well it HAS to be good"? Or am I the only one who would never pay $350.00 for a machine made piece?
Please help me sort this one out. Humor is welcome, but if you just want to flame me, email and save the rest of the viewers the time as I don't want this to turn into Usenet type banter... Thanks!

[RS]

Decent pieces can be had for under $100 and can be finished by an expert mouthpiece re-facer for less than $100. That would give you a great playing piece for less than $200. I can't see paying more than $200 for a mouthpiece.

[gary]

Patrick, I think you're asking for marketing purposes, so my answer is a long one, hopefilly to help out. Others may not benefit from such a lengthy answer, but as Paul Willliams sang; Patrick "this song's for you"....

First "Are the marketing "geniuses" correct in pricing a product so high that the consumer will think "well it HAS to be good"?" Yes, absolutely. People tend to equate monetary value with worth. Offer any professional service or merchandise for dirt cheap and you stereotype that product with just being average, or worse. It usually takes two types of buyers to be content with a moderately priced, or just plain cheap, service or item- the ones who just really can't afford anything more expensive or the mature buyer, one who looks for quality first, regardless of price.

OTOH, sell enough products who's high price does not justify the quality and word will get around sooner or later.

I think, regarding mpc's specifically, price also depends on how much hand work has gone into a product and how high the quality is as a result of that. Someone making anything from scratch by hand just must charge a higher price to justify the hours they've put into it. If one can only turn out 6 mpc's a month by hand and you've got a family to feed, well...do the math.

Personally, I have a very hard time justifying paying over $350.00 for a mpc. If you can get a killer mpc for that price great. I've read and understand the justification some have posted regarding spending $500.00-600.00 if that's going to be the mpc that lasts a lifetime and plays like a wonder for you. But real life often just isn't that way.

Personal history and reasons: I started out with stock Meyers on both alto and tenor 'cause that's what friends recommended and I knew Meyers were a standard mpc. Seemed to play OK for me. After I got more knowledgeable, I switched to a stock Link on my tenor, keeping the Meyer for alto.

Then after I got more knowledgeable and realized you could fine-tune a stock mpc's I sent my alto Meyer to JVW and my tenor Link to Theo Wanne. These both turned out to be excellent mpc's which I could still be playing today except for...ta-daaaa...the vaunted SOTW bandwagon effect to which I admit sucumbing. After all the talk about JJ ESP's I got one for tenor and it just blew me away. I spent more money on it than I had done on my stock Link and the refacing combined. But I really liked the way it played and was happy, cost and bandwagon effect nothwistanding, to keep it and make it my primary tenor mpc. Based on that experience I later got a tenor ESP.

Now to the present. I believe the cost/quality of the ESP's are in line. However, I am now ging back and forth between a Berg and Ponzol on tenor, both of which were stock, modern mpc's that had been refaced and have returned to a budget Runyon Custom which had been refaced by JVW (combined cost low), and am as happy with them, and can play them just as well as my ESP's.

It seems to me, that if one can find a refacer who's philosophy is the same as yours regarding what a given mpc should do and sound like, it makes more sense to get a stock mpc and have it refaced than to be spending upwards of $600.00. I mean, after all, what's the difference between a stock mpc that's been fedaced, one that's hand done, and one that's been machine made and hand finished. Cost, certainly, but effectiveness?

I should add that I just realized the other day that the alto Selmer C* that I've been using for a long time in solo, ensemble "legit'" use is simply a contemporary, stock, unrefaced and relatively inexpensive mpc. When I was looking for a tenor wind ensemble mpc I got a stock Link HR which MojoBari refaced and, again at a low cost, got a great playing mpc. Go figure.

I suppose the bottom line is not to offer something in the student-line range of prices nor anything at a price that makes the customer question both its price and its worth.

[Chris S]

Well said gary.

It seems to me that it's a simple supply and demand thing most of the time. An old friend of mine, Ernie Northway makes custom mouthpieces, and charges accordingly for them, since he can turn out maybe 1-2 a week (he does use blanks to begin with). While he's not VERY well known, he is known, and has been able to retire from 'the day job' and still make enough to feed his family.

It's like with some of Phil Barone's stuff.... he's well known, and the quality of his products has been proven, and I bet he's got a list of people waiting for a handmade mouthpice (or neck), therefore he *can* charge higher prices for them. If he didn't, his demand would be higher....

Chris S

[carr]

One of the reasons I have played Morgans for so long is that they are top quality, handmade pieces that work for a reasonable price (about $125 - $150 depending on where you go). I have tried other pieces that cost twice as much and don't play half as well. Superior quality hard rubber, superb craftsmanship, and all done by hand. These are designed and made by someone who knows saxophones and the acoustical science that goes into this stuff. I had the pleasure of speaking to Ralph last week, and he was telling me about how many orders they are trying to fill. And they don't advertise either - the product speaks for them.

I guess my point is that good quality pieces are out there for a reasonable price. You have to "find" them though.

At some point, we have to stop relying on a mouthpiece to provide us with something, and learn how to get it from decent equipment rather than purchasing new designer stuff. They ask that kind of money because they know someone will pay for it.

Ya know, if I play my Morgans for a month, a poorly finished Link for a month, and the new "Super Power Nuclear Anti-gravity Melt Your Eardrums Model X" for a month, I will end up sounding like me (unfortunately), regardless of what I use. The diiference is that with the Morgan, I work a lot less harder to make the piece work. What it sounds like is still up to me.

I don't mean for this to become a "everyone should buy a Link and practice" thread, but I can't help but wonder if we put ourselves in this situation of high mouthpiece prices buy paying top dollar to make us better players.

Maybe we can reverse the trend by not buying that stuff?

[Chris S]

...and the new "Super Power Nuclear Anti-gravity Melt Your Eardrums Model X" for a month...

that reminds me of the joke that went around for a while about how to become a pro sax player.

Among other things (buying horrendous hawaiin shirts and fedoras, as well as only the Selmer Mark VI that was manufactured at 4:38pm on November 12th, 19....), there was something about buying a lig that had one titanium screw, one platinum screw, and turning them 7.38 time to insure proper tension around the reed.

Funny stuff.

Chris S

PS- Where can I get one of those mouthpieces you talked about, the anti-gravity one? Do they make it in a larger tip opening? ;)

[Bill Mecca]

Gary,

You've described what marketer's call "Perceived Value." When pricing any product (and I am at that stage now) you have to price it high enough that there is a "perceived value" but not so high as to reduce sales.

Years ago I had this discussion with another video producer, he had a client who had produced a 'how-to" video on collecting Beanie Babies. He said it was well produced and while I cannot at the moment remember the exact numbers, I will paraphrase.

They put it on the market for $19.95 each and sold maybe 10 a month. They decided the price was too high and dropped it to $10.95 and the next month sold 5. They took it off the market for a short time and came back at $12.95 and sold 20 a month. (Like I said I cannot remember the exact figures, but you get the picture).

They had to realize who their market was. Other "speciality videos" can sell upwards of $40 to even $100 a copy, based on the content. But their market for this Beanie Baby collecting video was cost/bargain conscious. so the price had to be low enough to get them interested, but high enough that it enjoyed a "perceived value."

I will leave it to y'all to relate it to mpcs. ;)

Basically, produce a quality product, offer it at a fair price, with good customer service, and the product should do well.

Most of my mpcs FWIW have been ebay bargains. Except the Runyon Quantum that I purchased directly from the factory.

[JMac]

.... Other "speciality videos" can sell upwards of $40 to even $100 a copy, based on the content. But .... Bill, you really make me want to address a (perceivedly overpriced) saxophone related specialty video that teaches people how to become a hornsmasher :rolleyes: .... must resist temptation....must resist....d'oh :shock: .

[Bill Mecca]

If I can resist, so can you.... deep breaths... deep breaths.....or maybe I shoudl send you a picture of that shirt. ;)

[Mike Ruhl]

PS- Where can I get one of those mouthpieces you talked about, the anti-gravity one? Do they make it in a larger tip opening? ;)You can find it here (http://www.jodyjazz.com/dv1.html).

[gary]

LOL. Cold MIke. Cold as an outdoor iron water pipe in the Great White North in January.


...if you don't think that's cold, stick your tongue on it.

[Chris S]

:sign5:


Yep, that's all I got... I am cracking up! If we still had reputation points, you'd get 100 from me.

Chris S

[carr]

That's funny Mike! LOL!

I believe that anti gravity piece I was talking about only comes in a 19 star facing, which has been determined to be the optimal facing for that chamber design. But you can still use really hard reeds with it!

Ya know, if you build it, they will come. Make a high quality piece that works and charge a reasonable price, and it will sell. It might take a while, but it will. I don't think Ralph Morgan's business started booming overnight.