Why am I using such low strength reeds?

[playing_is_fun]

Why am I using such low strength reeds? I have been playing for six years now. I'm actually a pretty decent player. I play tenor in jazz band at my high school and I practice often.

Yet, I only have the muscle tone to be able to play a size 2. SIZE 2!!!!
The mouthpiece isn't even open either. It's a C* Vintage Selmer Long Shank.

Is there something the matter with me? What the hell is wrong?

My teacher says I get a good sound, but I'm bothered by the fact that im using a SIZE 2!!!! (GASP) It's pretty low strength... seems TOO low strength in fact, for someone with my experience, no?

[altoblues]

...people can make such a macho thing out of reed strengths. dude, as long as you get a sound you like it doesn't matter. and a lot of it has to do with mouthpiece etc.

steve lacy played a 1 1/2 ... so rest easy, k?

lots! of other (famous / infamous / normal) folks play #2, and #2 1/2 is likely the world's most popular reed choice.

stop freaking, and concentrate on the sound. :)

[Daktion]

I was playing a 3 before I started to use a 2 1/2 last week.... the sound I'm getting is so much better.

[njmyers]

Yeah man depends on the size of the mouthpiece. Don't get too caught up in equipment and what other people say. If you like the sound, who cares?

[Dr G]

Why am I using such low strength reeds? I have been playing for six years now. I'm actually a pretty decent player. I play tenor in jazz band at my high school and I practice often.

Yet, I only have the muscle tone to be able to play a size 2. SIZE 2!!!!
The mouthpiece isn't even open either. It's a C* Vintage Selmer Long Shank.

Is there something the matter with me? What the hell is wrong?

My teacher says I get a good sound, but I'm bothered by the fact that im using a SIZE 2!!!! (GASP) It's pretty low strength... seems TOO low strength in fact, for someone with my experience, no?

I think you are right to be concerned. I'm not a fan of macho mouthpieces and popsicle sticks but I wonder if you are using adequate breath support and blowing properly through the horn. It might be worth checking in with a dedicated saxophone teacher/player if your band teacher is not a sax player. Yes, I know that music teachers are supposed to be able to play everything but they simply cannot have a high level of proficiency on all horns.

[dolphyo]

just to mention what was said about Steve Lacy using a 1 1/2 reed with his setup is not the greatest of examples. Steve Lacy started on clarinet and moved on to soprano sax along with alto,tenor,baritone sax with years of experiance. after more years of concentration on just soprano sax with different setups from selmer soloist mpcs and otto links to hard,med hard,med,and later soft reeds from cane to synthetics. the softer reeds came about experimentation, better crop/batch/manufactors quality control of reeds, special short facing and large chamber and 40 years of control of the horn,physiology,and playing soprano and mastering it all those years.

[altoblues]

yeah, yeah, and he played a huge opening ... I know all that, I was just using him as an example that to play beautifully, and to be 'respected' you don't need to measure yourself by your reed strength. I often get students who are hung up on reed strengths ... you know, you're not for real if you don't play a 3.5 and nonsense like this. lacy concentrated on SOUND ... and if he'd liked what he heard with a harder reed, he would have played it. but he didn't ... and my point is that this person doesn't have to either. IF everything else is working (good point about the breathing), and he likes his sound ... who cares what you're playing on. 8-)

[littlemanbighorn]

You should also make sure your horn's not leaking.

[Mike Ruhl]

#2 reeds on a C* tenor mpc is a pretty light setup. That's not to say you can't get a nice tone from it, which you obviously are. But you could be getting more from your horn.

Basically you have 2 options (kind of obvious, but what the heck):

1. The cheaper option: Gradually work up in reed strength. Stick with your current cut and simply move up a half-strength. Just do it. Going from a 2 to a 2.5 shouldn't be that big of a deal. After you get comfortable for those (however long it takes: weeks, months, whatever), then get some #3s, and repeat the process until you feel like you've maxed out.

2. The more expensive, and potentially more confusing route: pick up a new mouthpiece with a more open tip. Generally I'd advise sticking with the same kind of mpc, just to minimize the other changes (shape of the beak, chamber configuration, etc.), but since you're playing an old mpc, that's going to be hard to do. So I'll suggest you do a trial from www.wwbw.com (http://www.wwbw.com). Order a few mpcs with tips in the .080" - .095" range, try them out with your #2 reeds and see how you like them. I suggest you stick with the Selmers and Vandorens, since they're probably going to feel closer to what you're currently playing. If you start asking about mpcs on this forum, you'll get all kinds of suggestions. Just read through the descriptions of the mpcs on the www.wwbw.com (http://www.wwbw.com) website, on in their print catalogue, and decide for yourself.

[Bill Mecca]

Another question to ask, is what brand reeds are you using. a #2 rico is not going to be the same as a #2 bluebox Vandoren.

use what works.

[barisaxplayer]

yeah... 2 vandoren is close to 2.5 rico. If you're having a hard time with a 2.5 rico or even vandoren, then have your horn checked out... If there aren't leaks, maybe you just got a bad box of harder reeds; I play size 3 ricos and thought there was something wrong with my horn, then I realized I just had 3 reeds in a box that were closer to a 6 than a 3. Hard to believe they can fit telephone poles in such a small box, isn't it?

[kavala]

Why am I using such low strength reeds? I have been playing for six years now. I'm actually a pretty decent player. I play tenor in jazz band at my high school and I practice often.

Yet, I only have the muscle tone to be able to play a size 2. SIZE 2!!!!
The mouthpiece isn't even open either. It's a C* Vintage Selmer Long Shank.

Is there something the matter with me? What the hell is wrong?

My teacher says I get a good sound, but I'm bothered by the fact that im using a SIZE 2!!!! (GASP) It's pretty low strength... seems TOO low strength in fact, for someone with my experience, no?

I think people get hung up on reed strength.
A lot of players think that if you put in a harder reed you will get a
better (or louder) sound.
My observation is this.
When you play a softer reed, you actually put more in your mouth
and more of the reed is vibrating, producing a better sound, and
often louder.
The down side is that you have to be more in control of the tuning,
as you can influence this more with your embrouchure when playing
a softer reed and having more mouthpiece in your mouth.

If you put in a hard reed, often it is just the tip of the reed that is being
used. Also you just make hard work for your self. The horn should be
fun to play, without having to go red in the face.

Having said all that I would point out a couple of things.
The mouthpiece you are using may just not be capable of producing
much more, because you just can't get the air through it.

Also I would suggest that you do lots of situps etc.
Strengthen up those ab's and you will find you can control the sound
more, and use a harder reed.

Then there is the obvious that we all know.
Practise long notes. At least 5 minutes every day.;)

[saxmanglen]

I agree with Kavala!

Conditioning can be a big thing. Especially in the cardio area. I've gotten pretty consistant the last year riding bikes with a buddy of mine 2-3 times weekly. We ride at a quick pace in rolling hills for about 35-40 minutes.

I now have much better air support and have found an increase of 1 reed strength from about 8-12 months ago has been needed.

Exercise on!

[Mike Ruhl]

I think people get hung up on reed strength.
A lot of players think that if you put in a harder reed you will get a
better (or louder) sound.
My observation is this.
When you play a softer reed, you actually put more in your mouth
and more of the reed is vibrating, producing a better sound, and
often louder.
The down side is that you have to be more in control of the tuning,
as you can influence this more with your embrouchure when playing
a softer reed and having more mouthpiece in your mouth.

If you put in a hard reed, often it is just the tip of the reed that is being
used. Also you just make hard work for your self. The horn should be
fun to play, without having to go red in the face.

Having said all that I would point out a couple of things.
The mouthpiece you are using may just not be capable of producing
much more, because you just can't get the air through it.

Also I would suggest that you do lots of situps etc.
Strengthen up those ab's and you will find you can control the sound
more, and use a harder reed.

Then there is the obvious that we all know.
Practise long notes. At least 5 minutes every day.;)Spoken like a dyed-in-the-wool #2 reed player...

I play #4 Vandoren V16 reeds on tenor. I've played them very comfortably and easily on mouthpieces with tip openings in the .115" to .120" range. And I'm just a amateur, weekend-warrior type player.

Some people can play hard reeds, some people can't.

[kavala]

Spoken like a dyed-in-the-wool #2 reed player...

I play #4 Vandoren V16 reeds on tenor. I've played them very comfortably and easily on mouthpieces with tip openings in the .115" to .120" range. And I'm just a amateur, weekend-warrior type player.

Some people can play hard reeds, some people can't.
I don't recall mentioning what strength reeds I play.

Obviously we are all made different.

In physical stature, I'm not a big guy.

You look at some dudes and their lips are bigger.
Some of these guys could play pro football.
Well you can't compete with that.
But I've seen small guys produce a huge sound, so it can be done
with control. But I bet they didn't have a piece of 4x2 in there.

Mike, you might try dropping back to a #3, shove a bit more mouthpiece
in there.
Watch the pitch. It's gonna wobble a bit for a while.
Get in behind the sound with the diaphragm and blow through the mouthpiece,
not at it. Straighten your neck. Go Ahhh, instead of Eeeeh.

I've got ten bucks that says you will produce a bigger sound.;)

[Bill Mecca]

oh, I know Mike and if he put anymore of the mpc in his mouth he would be eating the octave key ;)

what you describe is some one playing a too tough set up who is compensating for having a too hard reed by effectively closing the tip of the mpc by playing closer to the end and shutting off much of the reed.

FWIW I usually play 2.5 or 3 (fibracell or plasticover or v16) on tips ranging from .100-.118

As I said before, use what works. ( I think Gato Barbieri uses a 1.5 rico on his berg not sure of the opening)

[Mike Ruhl]

I don't recall mentioning what strength reeds I play.I should have put a :) after that. No offense intended.

Obviously we are all made different.

In physical stature, I'm not a big guy.

You look at some dudes and their lips are bigger.
Some of these guys could play pro football.
Well you can't compete with that.
But I've seen small guys produce a huge sound, so it can be done
with control. But I bet they didn't have a piece of 4x2 in there.Physical size has nothing to do with it, especially the size of someone's lips. Wayne Shorter is not a big man, but for years he played a 10* Link with #4 reeds.

Mike, you might try dropping back to a #3, shove a bit more mouthpiece
in there.
Watch the pitch. It's gonna wobble a bit for a while.
Get in behind the sound with the diaphragm and blow through the mouthpiece,
not at it. Straighten your neck. Go Ahhh, instead of Eeeeh.

I've got ten bucks that says you will produce a bigger sound.;)You talkin to me? You talking to me?!? ;) I'll take that bet. I take Paypal, btw...

But you're absolutely right, that's the technique. I figured that out 30 years ago, while in high school. The bit about taking in more mouthpiece is one of the things I've posted many times myself. The Runyon bite patches were one of the best things that ever happened to me. For years my top teeth rested above the bite plate of my metal Link 7*, which was kind of uncomfortable. Once I discovered the bite patches, I was in heaven.

I don't bite, either. You can't with as deep a bite as I use. Matter of fact, I typically use a rather loose embouchure. I think the ability to play harder reeds has more to do with the power of the airstream than it does embouchure strength.

Because of my preference for hard reeds, I tend to pick mpcs that will allow me to play them. I really like long facings, like on the Vandoren V16 T95. A #4 V16 reed on that mpc blows very easily (for me anyway).

It's really as much of mystery to me why some folks can't play harder reeds, as it to you how I can easily play what I play.

No, I don't think I'll be dropping down in reed strength any time soon. Somebody hand me the planer!:D

[SactoPete]

As I said before, use what works. ( I think Gato Barbieri uses a 1.5 rico on his berg not sure of the opening)

...IMO, saying "use what works", and using Gato as an example is not entirely the best choice. "the cat" is a good name for him, 'cause he sounds like my cat when you step on its tail (to me, anyways).

Something else that nobody has mentioned is how well the mouthpiece is finished. I've had a couple of mouthpieces that were improved so much by a reface that I went up a half strength reed overnight, even though they were actually more open than when I sent them out....

Pete

[BlueNote]

I currently use Rico Royal #4 reeds on my tenor. I have gradually gotten to this point, so of course it isn't a strain to play on them now as they were when I first began using such a strength. The "strain" usually happens the first day you start playing on a harder strength reed than you are used to, especially if you quickly climb the ladder. I remember before I started using 4s, WAY back I was using 2 1/2 reeds all the time. They felt right and they played well, however, when it came to playing LOUD and with DEPTH, it didn't cut it for me. It was frustrating, and I was in fact demonstrating proper air support, so it wasn't that.

So one day I decide what the hell, and I opened up a box of #3 reeds that I had laying around, and started getting used to using a harder reed. I hated them at first, but the more I played them, the better the tone I got. About 2 weeks later I bumped it up to a 3 1/2. BOY were those hard to play on for the first day or so! But after that, it just felt like a normal reed to me. I was naturally putting a lot of air through the horn, so it was a subconscious thing. I didn't feel physically strained while playing on them after the first day or so. Of course, if a 2.5 player were to suddenly try a 4 reed, it wouldn't be so easy.

The week after I started playing on those 3 1/2s, I went for it and bought a box of RR #4 reeds (which I use now). I do not recall the physical strain being as hard on me from the get-go, even though it was a half a strength higher.

I DO in fact play louder with the harder reed (jam session experiences), and I play on a naturally loud horn, so I didn't have to work as hard to be heard and get the desired sound I wanted without ruining my tone. One thing I noticed is that if you try and play really loud -- like forcing it -- on the softer reeds, like 2 and 2.5s, there is a bigger chance of you overblowing and bluntly damaging your tone. As someone who believes strongly in having a great tone on the saxophone, I get really annoyed when I overblow and my tone goes south, simply because I was putting too much air through the horn.

Just my thoughts/input/story. :)

[Bill Mecca]

Pete,

all I was trying to point out is..... that Gato uses soft reeds, Wayne Shorter uses hard reeds, Sax Gordon uses 4 or 5's on a Link 9* (now an RPC) it's all personal preference (as for sound or what reed size works) and who gives a rat's tail what others think of the reed strength you are using, if it works for you use it.

[SactoPete]

Yeah, Bill, I know... I was being fecicious, and using your comment (which was a good one with a well-purposed intent) as a launching pad for my rant of the day for no real reason. No criticism directed at you, buddy - sorry if you felt it was. I agreed with everything in your post... just on an anti-Gato binge at the moment, it helps me direct my anger at the world to someone I will almost assuredly never meet.

[saxamaphonegirl]

In Jr. high and high school my teacher was pretty close to ignorant when it came to woodwinds. He helped perpetuate the myth of higher # on a reed means a better player.
No, it just means you like or need a harder reed.
He had a bunch of 7th/8th graders playing on #4 ricos!!! :shock:
There weren't private teachers readily available where we were located, so we just had to talk his word for it. Needless to say it caused me to do things like bite and tighten my throat, etc.

I now use a #3 or comparable on most brands.
In a reed/moutpiece setup, you don't want too much/too little resistance.
Too much, nothing comes out. Too little, you have no control over airspeed/support/volume.

The best thing you could do would be to get a qualified private teacher. :) Then during your lesson, corner them and drill them with every question you can possibly think of. :)

[CMelodyMan]

...people can make such a macho thing out of reed strengths. dude, as long as you get a sound you like it doesn't matter. and a lot of it has to do with mouthpiece etc.

steve lacy played a 1 1/2 ... so rest easy, k?

lots! of other (famous / infamous / normal) folks play #2, and #2 1/2 is likely the world's most popular reed choice.

stop freaking, and concentrate on the sound. :) I agree on what mjago said. TONS of players play on 2s and 2.5s, especially 2.5s.

[dirty]

Hey man, if it sounds good, go for it.

[Bill Mecca]

Pete,

Not a problem being Facetious, Throwing Gato in there at the end was an after thought and what you said pointed out to me that maybe someone could miss the point.

;)

[Mike Ruhl]

I currently use Rico Royal #4 reeds on my tenor. I have gradually gotten to this point, so of course it isn't a strain to play on them now as they were when I first began using such a strength. The "strain" usually happens the first day you start playing on a harder strength reed than you are used to, especially if you quickly climb the ladder. I remember before I started using 4s, WAY back I was using 2 1/2 reeds all the time. They felt right and they played well, however, when it came to playing LOUD and with DEPTH, it didn't cut it for me. It was frustrating, and I was in fact demonstrating proper air support, so it wasn't that.

So one day I decide what the hell, and I opened up a box of #3 reeds that I had laying around, and started getting used to using a harder reed. I hated them at first, but the more I played them, the better the tone I got. About 2 weeks later I bumped it up to a 3 1/2. BOY were those hard to play on for the first day or so! But after that, it just felt like a normal reed to me. I was naturally putting a lot of air through the horn, so it was a subconscious thing. I didn't feel physically strained while playing on them after the first day or so. Of course, if a 2.5 player were to suddenly try a 4 reed, it wouldn't be so easy.

The week after I started playing on those 3 1/2s, I went for it and bought a box of RR #4 reeds (which I use now). I do not recall the physical strain being as hard on me from the get-go, even though it was a half a strength higher.

I DO in fact play louder with the harder reed (jam session experiences), and I play on a naturally loud horn, so I didn't have to work as hard to be heard and get the desired sound I wanted without ruining my tone. One thing I noticed is that if you try and play really loud -- like forcing it -- on the softer reeds, like 2 and 2.5s, there is a bigger chance of you overblowing and bluntly damaging your tone. As someone who believes strongly in having a great tone on the saxophone, I get really annoyed when I overblow and my tone goes south, simply because I was putting too much air through the horn.

Just my thoughts/input/story. :)Well said. My experience is very similar. I played #2.5 Ricos on my 7* Link back in high school, then later decided I wanted to move up in reed strength when I realized there where things I could do with a harder reed that I couldn't do with a softer reed (I was listening to a lot of Getz at the time). The facing on my Link tends to prefer softer strengths, so I had to find another mpc that would allow me to play the harder reeds. That's how I ended up with my Hite 128.

There's no machismo to it, despite all my joking around about it. Like Bill has said, we all have to find what works for us as individuals. If you're able to get a solid tone and be heard playing #2s on a C#, go for it. I won't pretend to understand it, but if you say it works for you, who am I to doubt you?

wimps

[kavala]

No offense intended.


None was taken. I enjoyed the comment actually.


Physical size has nothing to do with it, especially the size of someone's lips. Wayne Shorter is not a big man, but for years he played a 10* Link with #4 reeds.


I'm not sure I agree with that.
There are always exceptions to every rule and great players like Wayne
Shorter always break the mould. That's part of the reason they are great.

A guy that is built like an aircraft carrier, and is in great shape, must
have an edge regarding lung capacity, size of hands, embrouchure
strength etc. That is a fact of life.

However, not to say that a smaller person cannot achieve good results
through proper technique. He just has to work harder at it and be more
concious of that fact.

You couldn't really expect a young girl playing in a school band to even
look at handling a setup as used by some 200lb man who in good physical
shape. Would you put that same girl on Bari or alto ?

We are all built differently, and I think good Mike is an example of that.
What is easy for him regarding reed strength, is not necessarilly easy for
others.

The point I was trying to make was that it's okay to use a harder
reed for sure.
But make certain that you are up to it.
Don't fall into the trap that a harder reed is going to be better.
You gotta be able to handle that extra strength correctly, otherwise it
can be a backward move.

[MM]

One of my teachers has said we'd all play soft reeds if we could get a decent sound out of them, but you'd need to be a genius. Or words to that effect.

[kavala]

One of my teachers has said we'd all play soft reeds if we could get a decent sound out of them, but you'd need to be a genius. Or words to that effect.


mmmmmmmmmmmmm :D