MC Gregory Alto Mouthpieces

[ppamhk]

Kindly share your experience on Gregory alto mouthpieces. They command quite high prices, especially the Model A and Master. Is it because they are hard to find or their quality/design or both?

[DirkW]

The primary reason the vintage mouthpieces cost a fortune is because many players are looking for "chops in a box." Desmond played a McGregory, so if I want to sound like him I'll buy one too (the reasoning goes). I fell into that trap myself for a while.

Vintage mouthpieces are made with more rubber content. While some will debate me on this, I doubt the rubber content adds much to the sound. Workmanship was better than the mass produced mouthpieces of today. Vintage mouthpieces will also tend to have longer facings and more narrow tip openings. The desirability of a vintage facing is personal preference.

You can save yourself some serious money by buying a Meyer G (or similar modern replica) and have a quality refacer work it to your specifications. If you go to an established refacer, you will come out with a better playing mouthpiece than a high-dollar original. Check out the refacing section of the forum for references.

[Chu-Jerry]

I just recently acquired a mint MC Gregory Model-A 4A 16 (ser# 570x) and it has become one of my favorite pieces. I could immediately tell that it had a quality facing on the first blow on my gold Chu alto. It has a very clear tone, not much edge but rather bright and thick in the center and dark on the edges (if that makes sense?). For me it plays very easily and is easy to control and has great response. It will play down to ppp effortlessly. Seems to work well so far for classical and can be pushed a bit for a more jazzy sound. I've tried Rico Jazz select 2 (definitely too soft), Vandoren 2-1/2 and V16-3 reeds so far (cause that's what I got on hand). I've only had it for 2 weeks now but I can see how it might help getting that Desmond sound. It certainly won't get in the way of it at least.

The Model-A has a very thin shell design over the bite-plate area which supposedly helps to reduce vibration damping and thin rails for the same purpose. The hand finished chamber finish is virtually flawless. It's a very well made piece regardless of your philosophy about vintage vs modern.

[altoblues]

Great pieces. Plain and simple. I've had a both a 5, and 6 Master. The 6 played MUCH more freely, darker and with a more complex sound. These pieces WON'T make you sound like Desmond (and btw, Cannonball played one too for quite a while), but they do have a distinctive character. The piece matched my SBA very well, not sure how they'd do on a newer horn.

[Saxland]

Could someone explain what " MC Gregory Model-A 4A 16 " numbers mean? Thanks.

[altoblues]

Could someone explain what " MC Gregory Model-A 4A 16 " numbers mean? Thanks.


It's a tip opening #4, small chamber (16) mouthpiece of the Model A style / model. An 18 was a med chamber, and 20 was large. I've seen tip openings as large as 6 myself, though it seems these pieces are more common with the smaller tip openings. I'm not too sure what the other 'A' stands for ... the 4"A" ... but I assume it means "alto". www.mouthpieceheaven.com has a pretty good run down of the Gregory pieces in its Vintage Mouthpiece section.

[ppamhk]

I just bought a Master Gregory hard rubber alto mouthpiece which is still in transit. I hope it would give a better sound than my current Selmer Soloist long shank hard rubber mouthpiece. Anyone there have experience on Master Gregory?

[altoblues]

I have played both a Master #5, and #6. What tip opening did you buy? I find that with Gregorys, more than other pieces I have tried, the tip opening really alters the tonal character. The difference in tone from your soloist to the Gregory will be a big one. I switched from a short shank soloist in an E facing to the Gregory. Again, depending on tip openings on both the soloist and the Gregory I think you will find that you won't have to work as hard to get the same amount of sound. The Gregory in my experience was a lighter (though not neccissarily brighter) piece that was still in the darker end of the spectrum. I remarked to my teacher when I got the piece that it felt like 10lbs was taken off my sound ... I also liked the response in the altissimo register.

I only sold my Gregory as I had to pay the rent (switched to a Barone). I'd buy another one in a second if I could afford it.

Hope you like the piece!

[Saxland]

Thanks Mjago for the information and the comments on the Gregory mouthpieces. Very informative and very usefull.

[ppamhk]

Hi Mjago:

I bought a Master 6A 16. I am currently working on a Selmer long shank C* which give more focused and brighter than my previous Meyer 7M. This is particularly obvious when I also changed the black Rovner ligature to a BG metal ligature. Still, I am not very used to my current Selmer C*. I hope the coming Master 6A 16 would suit me better.

Thanks for the sharing indeed.

[AMASAX]

http://www.mouthpieceheaven.com/misc/gregory.htm

Go here for a good basic intro to the various Gregory mouthpieces. Altho Theo has some wrong & incorrect info, it is, for the most part, in the right direction.

Don't bother trying to contact Theo, he's supposedly been in Egypt 'finding himself', whatever that means...

Some basic observations i've formed about these, after playing various models off & on for 30 years:

* there is a distinct difference between -each- model, no matter what anyone tells you. And, btw, the Master Models do -not- play just like the Model-A mthpces.

* Slap on a Model-A, use a 3-ish reed, you'll see why Desmond sounded the way he did. Altho some people say Desmond would sound like Desmond on any mouthpiece, that's crap. He played a Model-A cuz that allowed him to get closest to the sound he had in his head. Playing on some wide open, high baffle mthpce just ain't gonna get the same sound, no matter who's playing it. They may sound a little similar, but playing a Model-A will allow anyone to get closer to the 'Desmond Sound'.

* 16 chamber is the smallest/brightest, easiest to sound like Desmond.
* 20 chamber is largest/mellowest, very nice, but NOT Desmond.
* 18 chambers are in between, vary somewhat, some sound more like a 16, some lean a bit towards a 20.

Personally, I prefer the Model-A the most, stay completely away from Model-B, and find the Master Models to not be what I want.

I've only played a couple of the 'Hollywood' mthpces(no brass band at bottom), and they were both crappy, substandard on quality.

I only like the brass banded models, and usually stick with the Model-A.

The above is all about alto sax mthpces.

For tenor, i've played several of the various Model-A and Master Model, and altho some are fine, I tend to prefer an Otto Link ToneMaster, but that's not due to quality, etc, it just produces the old style sound I like(on a Balanced Action tenor).

Had one bari Master Model, didn't really like it, but it was 'flush' version(see below).

If you're contemplating getting a Master Model, the earlier the better. I really don't like the ones that have the metal band flush with the end of the mthpce, would rather use the ones that have a slight amount of mthpce visible at the end of the band. The 'flush' ones were the very last mthpces made, before they were discontinued.

Anyways, that'll get you started...

[ppamhk]

According to mouthpieceheaven, the structures of Model A and Master are virtually identical, except the biteplate of Master is thicker. So is it correct?

While I am waiting for the arrival of the Master, I changed to use a Rico 2.5 reed on my Selmer soloist C* and it works much better now. I can play the low notes F, E, D much more easily than when I used a Vandoren 2 reed. The sound has now changed a little bit - more "solid" I guess. Though my tutor insists me to work on Vandoren 2.

I have stocks of Rico 2.5, Rico 3 and Vandoren 2 reeds. Can't wait to see what kind of reed can work on the Master.

[AMASAX]

Yeah, that's one area in which Theo is off a bit, in that the Model-A and Master Models are NOT the same. The Master Models have a slightly higher baffle, which was likely Gregory's response to changing preferences in the late 1940's-early 1950's for brighter mouthpieces.
While some of the Masters can be pretty good mthpces, they don't have as full of sound as the Model-A pieces.
Out of the dozen or so Masters I've owned, I've run into exactly ONE that plays as well as any of the Model-A pieces I've owned, and even tho that piece is a nice playing baby, the tone is still brighter than a Model-A.

Is also worth mentioning here that supposedly, Gregory had a little 'problem' with the 'bottle'. Later mthpces(later Masters) tend to be much more inconsistent and variable than the earlier pieces, so if you're considering a Master, be sure and check the rails, particularly the tip rail, as I've seen a LOT of variance there...

Oh, btw, the last iteration of Masters were made by Charles Bay, after he bought the tooling for the Gregory mthpces...have met/known 'Charlie' a bit over the years, and as far as I know, HE's never had a 'bottle' problemo, puts out some fine mthpces under his own name... :)

[ppamhk]

Got the Master Gregory just now. Feel a little bit brighter than my Selmer soloist hard rubber long shank. It is a 6A 16, and I feel better to use Vandoren 2.5 reed than a softer 2 reed. My BG metal ligature that can fit into Selmer soloist doesn't fit the Master Gregory well. Master Gregory has a much larger body. Then I tried a back-up Rovner black fabric ligature on it though the sound seems to be dampened a bit. Now, I need to find a suitable metal ligature for this Master Gregory.

I am not an experienced player. I think it takes time for me to discover the merits of this Master Gregory. So far, I am not very impressed by it.

If you have come across the same situation, please share with me......many thanks.;)

[altoblues]

i had the same trouble finding a lig that fit and didn't dampen the sound. i tried almost everything available, and settled on a BG Tradition ligature. it's an inverted metal lig that supports the reed on two rails, allowing to vibrate very freely. comes in a couple of finishes ... really nice lig for that (or any) piece. fits the Gregory well.

good luck!

[Rackety Sax]

i had the same trouble finding a lig that fit and didn't dampen the sound. i tried almost everything available, and settled on a BG Tradition ligature. it's an inverted metal lig that supports the reed on two rails, allowing to vibrate very freely. comes in a couple of finishes ... really nice lig for that (or any) piece. fits the Gregory well.

good luck!
So if you are trying to sound like Paul Desmond and don't have the bucks to shell out on one of these vintage mouthpieces, what's the best modern alternative?

[BigDaddyJ]

I have two 4A's. On any alto I've tried, I never even came close to Desmonds sound. I actually sound more like Desmond on the Nete mpc. The chambers on these are pretty different though. Gregory = Round, Nete = Squared-Horseshoe?

On a side note, I really dig the Rovner Eddie Daniels ligature on my Gregories.

later

Joel

[altoblues]

...Paul Desmond's sound (or anyone's, really) wasn't in his mouthpiece. It was in his head. Sound CONCEPTION is much, much more important than your brand of mouthpiece, lig, reed etc ... sure, a certain set can help you acheive your sound goals, and certain set ups with thwart it (going for Desmond on a metal Berg, for example), but you've got to HEAR it first. Listen, sing along, play along etc... hopefully you'll come to develop and enjoy your own sound along the way.

...but to answer your question, you can get to Desmond's general end of the sound spectrum on a good Meyer, a Barone, a round chamber Selmer etc ... nothing too bright or edgy.

Good luck.

[AMASAX]

try a Charles Bay ligature, they work quite well on the various Gregory mthpces...be aware that Bay makes his ligatures in several mthpce sizes, so you'll wanna get the right size(small, med, large). Off hand, i don't recall which size works for the Gregory alto mthpces, my -guess- would be medium or large, but you'll wanna scope that out.

As far as 'tone in the head' vs. 'tone in the mthpce', see my comments above. Yes, you've gotta hear it first, but once you hear it, equipment either helps or hurts you get -that sound- outa da horn...as stated above, if Desmond coulda gotten that sound easier out of a Soloist, he would be seen in zillions of phots using a Soloist...he ain't, he wasn't, he didn't....end of story.

[bruce bailey]

My Gregory sounds the least like Desmond of any I have used. The one time I met him in 1966, he was using a Brilhart tonalin in a 3* facing. I agree that it is not the horn or the mpc, it is the player. Although people think a Meyer has more edge than a Selmer, it is the other way around for me. I find the Gregory has a great buzzy sound that fills a room whereas my impression of Desmond is a compact crystal sound.

[rsclosson]

My 4A 18M master model is a great mouthpiece. While it really doesn't make me sound like Desmond, it is very resonant and easy blowing. It is a little brighter than Desmond's sound. I am using a Bay lig and am quite happy with the setup on my Balanced Action.
I get closer to the Desmond sound with a short shank Selmer Soloist D, though, admittedly, I am not really trying to sound like Desmond, though i love the tone.

[ppamhk]

Trying the Master Gregory 6A 16 for almost 2 weeks, I am also not very well adapted to it. I mixed different kind of reeds: Rico 2.5, Java 2.5, Vandoren 2, Rico 3 with BG metal ligature and a black Rovner ligature. Very different from my old Selmer long shank C*. Here are my comparison:

For Master 6A 16:

Merits - sound is brighter and fuller; no problem with the low notes.

Problem - For me, a 2.5 reed works best on it, but still not free blowing.


For Selmer C* long Shank:

Merits - much more easy to play.

Problem - less certain to get low notes, but high notes sound great.

Guess every pieces have their own characters. If I cannot get used to the Master, I may give up. Having said that, I will give myself long enough trial period.:(

[ppamhk]

Just recognized that a new old stock of Gregory Master 6A 16 was sold more than US$400 on ebay. Quite expensive.

[bruce bailey]

Nice mouthpiece but not THAT nice.

[AMASAX]

i suspect the $400 was because of NOS and being a bit wider open facing than is typical of Gregories. More open mthpces are often viewed as 'better' & more desirable, which really not the case, as closer mthpces are often more suitable than more open mthpces.

'course, all it takes are TWO bidders who've 'gotta have it'...

[BlueTone]

I think it's very Important to point out something about "The Paul Desmond sound"

Sadly..when folks buy a Gregory, they think they are playing on the same mouthpiece that Paul used..Not So..

I had a conversation with Marcel (of Nete Mouthpiece Co.)
He talked to Paul sometime before Paul's death and looked at the mouthpiece....it had been shaved down close to the tip rail (I THINK he said that there was a "Cut" right behind the rail) and the chamber had been enlarged quite a bit.

..As Marcel put it.."Paul's Mouthpiece had about as much resemblence to a stock Gregory as a 57' Chevy!"

LOL!

[Hurling Frootmig]

I think that the modern mouthpiece that is most like the old Gregory's is the Morgan 3C. The outer profile is very close and the insides seem to be very similar. I find that tonally they are very much alike.

[MM]

Slightly tangential to the thread, but I'm trying to understand how the Meyer G's are designed. I've seen pictures in Junkdude's web site and Ebay and it looks like there is a fairly short high baffle. Is this true? That's kinda different from the Gregories I've seen if so. How do the G chambers compare to the Medium or Small?

I've had Gregories for alto and tenor, and haven't seen a mpc with exactly the same design. The chamber for the Masters are a bit on the small side but their throat has a fairly minor squeeze. The Model A I had, which was a great legit tenor mpc, was more like a Brilhart. You might also look at a large chamber Beechler, if you can find one.

Charles Bay's Model A is supposed to be just like the Gregories but costs $$$$.

[sabritas]

if he used a 4 that means the tip opening was very small, no? like a yamaha 4c or something? I've always thought he and stan gets had the most beautiful tones. I've read getz used a closed tip opening and hard reed. could be a pattern here.

[MM]

Yes, a Gregory 4 is probably around a Yamaha 4C in tip. Getz supposedly used a Link 5 HR and #4 reeds. BTW I found a Gregory Master 6 on tenor gave a Getz-like sound.

[Chu-Jerry]

My model A 4A tip is 0.060".

[sabritas]

i'd really like to understand what .060 means and how to compare with other models. is there a link? once again a million thanks.

[garyinla]

The post above about Cannonball playing on a gregory is probably wrong, in my opinion. What i read was he had a NY Meyer and it was banded with metal due to a crack. So people assume it was a gregory but it wasnt.

[ppamhk]

My Master Gregory alto mouthpiece hasn't been worked on. Recently, a mouthpiece expert suggested the following method to help making my mouthpiece more easy to blow. He said:

"I would close down the tip opening to make it easier to blow also flatten the table to make it more reed friendly and adjust the curve commensorate to the tip opening."

Could anyone on this forum share with your view if the above makes sense or not?

Also, do you think it is worthy to alter vintage Gregory mouthpieces since they are known for their qualities? Do you think these mouthpieces were made in consistent qualities?

I found my Master Gregory considerably more difficult to blow (when compared with my Selmer C* soloist style long shank hard rubber mouthpiece or Florida Otto Link metal #5). I am not sure if this is attributable to the mouthpiece or my embouchure or skill?

Many thanks.

[EZ]

Good advice. Did they review the mouthpiece first-hand?

[bruce bailey]

If it isn't blowing right, yes, something can be done to get it right. I agree that the table would be a starting point but I don't think I would want to close the tip.

[ppamhk]

Hi ez Sax,

To answer your question, the mouthpiece expert had not review the mouthpiece. I only sent him some close-up photos of the mouthpiece and he gave me the advice thereafter.

[AMASAX]

Don't have it worked on unless you're prepared to write it
off as a total loss. Just cuz some mouthpiece refacer
wrote you a blurb doesn't really mean much. You need
to have this mthpce tested by 1) a play qualified to
evaluate it and/or 2) a recognized refacing expert who
really knows his stuff.

Unless there's some obvious imperfection in a picture,
one has to play these babies to really figure them out.

[ppamhk]

As far as I can observe, there seems to be no imperfection on the mouthpiece. Of course, I don't have equipment to do any measures. I let my tutor to test play the mouthpiece, and he said the sound is good and mellow. But he commented that it took him about 10% more effort to blow my mouthpiece as compared to his Freddie Gregory hard rubber mouthpiece.

The service fee quoted by the mouthpiece expert is about US$130 so it is quite expensive. I am not sure if I shall ask him to do the job.:?

[altoblues]

I'm not going to say that there isn't anything wrong with your mouthpiece as I've never seen it, let alone played it, but one thing to consider here is that not all pieces work for all people ... perhaps not even for you AND your teacher. I've found that once you're really used to one thing (as your teacher may be) other pieces / horns / reeds aren't immediately satisfying. And for yourself, perhaps the Gregory just isn't the ticket. I've played many "great" mouthpieces that just didn't work for me. Didn't make me or the mouthpiece necessarily bad, just a bad fit ... or whatever. Also, I have tried several of these pieces and really! liked one of them (which I was forced to sell to pay the rent), and was "ho - Hum" on others. Just what did you expect this piece to do for you? Don't take it personally, but perhaps it is time to move on...if you like the Gregory mistique / sound / whatever ... consider trading your piece for another of the same model and see if you have similar results. If you do, perhaps this configuaration is not for you. NO offence meant by any of these comments, I just hate to see someone so bound up by their mouthpiece. Good luck with whatever you decide to do. If you decide to get it refaced, there are several members of this forum that could help you out.

[ppamhk]

Hi Mojago:

I'm pleased to read your message. I am satisfied with every aspect of my Master Gregory ie both high and low notes as well as subtones sound great. Quite dark and mellow in general. I do have reservation to alter the mouthpiece. I shall try for a while and if it still doesn't work for me, I would rather let go of it and try on other models/brands.

Thanks again.

[ppamhk]

I have seen Gregory model A with and without a metal band at the end of the shank. Is there any difference between those two? I want to buy one to compare with my existing Master Gregory.

[AMASAX]

yes, there are many variations of Gregory mthpces out there, some of which are quite good, lots of which are not.

* Gregories without the metal band(typically known as 'Los Angeles' Gregories) were a cheaper more mass produced knockoff. There may be a good one out there, but i've never found it :)
These can be a Model-A, which confuses with the banded one.


* metal banded Gregories are usually the better mthpce.
Model-A is usually preferred to the Model-B. Model-B is too mellow/dead for most people.

* Master Model replaced the Model-A/B sometime in the late 1940s or around 1950 or so. Higher baffle, not as mellow of tone. No more Model-A or Model-B, just the 'Master'.

* the very last of the Master Model have the ring extending flush to the end of the mthpce. These were made around the time Charles Bay bought out the company. Not as good, in my opinion.

I like the Model-A, banded mthpces; others, don't interest me, altho others do like the Master Model.

Search under 'Gregory' or my id for -many- posts on this subject.

Go to Theo's website, mouthpieceheaven.com, drill down, he has pics & descriptions(altho some of his info is incorrect, it's a good start).

[ppamhk]

Interesting enough. This "Nete Paul Desmond Alto Mouthpiece" claims to be able to produce the "Paul Desmond" sound. Anybody has tried it before? How does it compare with the MC Gregory Model-A or Master?

Here is the link: http://www.jodiporter.com/warnerm.htm

[Hurling Frootmig]

It does not.

I have said it before and I will say it again. If you want something like a Gregory and you can't find a Gregory then get a Morgan 3C on alto. They are very close in shape and tonal style to the Gregory. Then slap some hard reeds on it and practice sounding like a Dry Martini.

[MojoBari]

I have a Nete. It has a very small window opening. This helps in getting a small dry sound. It can be played to sound like Desmond. So can many other mouthpieces. Its more up to the player for this style.

[Kritavi]

The post above about Cannonball playing on a gregory is probably wrong, in my opinion. What i read was he had a NY Meyer and it was banded with metal due to a crack. So people assume it was a gregory but it wasnt.

This is incorrect, Cannonball did play a Gregory for some time as well as the banded Meyer. This info came to me via Mike Smith who was a close friend of Nats.

[Chu-Jerry]

I have both the Mc Gregory model A (4A 16), and a Morgan 3C. I find that the Morgan is much darker than the Model A. Though they both have rounded chambers and low or no baffle, the chamber on the Morgan is much larger. I like the Morgan in general but for me the Model A plays dramatically better.

[Hurling Frootmig]

I read an early interview with Cannonball where he says he played a Gregory at one time. I've read another thing that made light of the fact that both Cannonball and Desmond played a Gregory and yet sounded like themselves.

[bruce bailey]

I like my Gregory and have found it to be a nice one for the vintage horns HOWEVER since getting a super session, I think I will sell the Gregory as it just sits here!

[saxmanglen]

HOWEVER since getting a super session, I think I will sell the Gregory as it just sits here!

Bruce,

I keep seeing all your posts about the Super Session being the bee's knee's. I'm going to have to go get another, aren't I?:D

[Chu-Jerry]

I read an early interview with Cannonball where he says he played a Gregory at one time. I've read another thing that made light of the fact that both Cannonball and Desmond played a Gregory and yet sounded like themselves.So, since I play a Gregory on my Cannonball, I will sound like..? :dazed:

[bruce bailey]

You started it!!! I am really hooked on this thing and I don't change my main mouthpiece often. Short shank D from 1966-80, S-80 D 1980-2005 and now this SuperSession D. Let's see if I can go another 25 years (I will be 83 then).
Back to the Gregory, I think that where these really shine is for that vibrant 50s sound.

[saxmanglen]

You started it!!! I am really hooked on this thing and I don't change my main mouthpiece often. Short shank D from 1966-80, S-80 D 1980-2005 and now this SuperSession D. Let's see if I can go another 25 years (I will be 83 then).
Back to the Gregory, I think that where these really shine is for that vibrant 50s sound.

Bruce,

I mentioned in another post how I liked the SS but the 'D' was just too small a tip for me. (I'm pleased it's working well for you) I WILL probably revisit the SS down the road in an 'F' facing. For now, I'm pleased with the Le Bayle 8* on alto.

[bruce bailey]

I may venture up to an E but an F looks a bit far off!!!

[ppamhk]

I just bought a Gregory Model-A 5A 20 alto mouthpiece. I use the same ligature and reed (ie 2.5 vandoren Jazz) to test play it against my existing Gregory Master 6A 16.

This Model-A is again a very nice mouthpiece. Compared to my Master, Model-A is a little bit easier to blow and sounds darker. It is slightly more resonant. But, I have to say the overall tonal characteristics of this Model -A is not superior than the Master. Of course, I may change my mind when I play more on it.

I guess the larger chamber size, and slightly lower and flatter barrel (middle portion of the body) of the Model-A contributes to the difference.

Anyone has compared the Model-A against Master with the same tip openings and chamber sizes? What is your conclusion?

[AMASAX]

the Master Model has a higher baffle, and was most likely
a change reflecting the desire of players for more edge
and projection, in the late 1940's-early 1950s.

I've owned(still do) many Model-A & Masters and find
the Model-A pieces to be a mellower sound.

And, they're more consistent...Masters are all over the
map on quality of construction.

Note that i'm referring to Gregories with the metal band;
non-banded pieces are a completely separate item.

[baritone]

can I assume that Model A with brass band is the Mark VI in the MCGregory?

I have a Model A 4A 16 coming....currently on B* Selmer SS sololist....dunno what kind of surprise will I get?!

:D

[AMASAX]

can I assume that Model A with brass band is the Mark VI in the MCGregory?

I have a Model A 4A 16 coming....currently on B* Selmer SS sololist....dunno what kind of surprise will I get?!

:D

Well, seeing as I like Model-A Gregories, but don't care much
for Mark VI horns... -I- wouldn't call the Model-A's the
'Mark VI' of mthpces :)

But, go ahead if'n you wants...whatever floats your boat...

[Saxaholic]

AMASAX

Looking to unload one of those Gregories? Sounded like you had more than one Model-A for alto. If so, shoot me an e-mail at WalterNak8@yahoo.com . Thanks.

Saxaholic

[bruce bailey]

Educate me; I have an Alto Gregory that has a metal band on the shank, Model-A closest to th ebeak, Rico with a treble staff in the middle and the trademark in a diamond below. On one side it has 4A and on the other 16. Is this model worth anything? It seems to have a decent sound but is a bit closed for me.

[ppamhk]

I think this is the famed Gregory Model-A. You should also find serial number on it. My Model-A 5A 20 sounds nicely and also easy to blow.

[bruce bailey]

No serial number.

[baritone]

Bruce,

Model A 4A16 with metal band....is what those money are prepared for....
I hope to get mine in a days or two....however, i am not very keen on y it is without serial....but if it is a Model A..... :) sell it to me I am all for it!

I just had some experience with a Model B tenor piece....superb to me....cant wait to try the Model A alto....

Pete

[saintsday]

It's been 10 days since I traded with Junkdude a short shank soloist C* for an alto Gregory Master Hollywood 5 20M with a brass band and both my teacher and a girl friend (a once upon a time altoist) have commented on my sound. For me, this piece plays effortlessly and gives me more control and response than anything else I've tried all the way up and all the way down. Every note is easy. It has also brought a TT that I've liked, but not loved, beautifully alive. I've read here about A and B and Los Angeles etc., but not much detail about the Hollywood designation. What got me going in the Gregory direction was a Gale Companion that came with a horn I bought (so did the soloist) that was close but a little too bright. Can anyone explain the Hollywood part?

[AMASAX]

So, since I play a Gregory on my Cannonball, I will sound like..? :dazed:

you'll sound like a Gregoryball...:D

[AMASAX]

Educate me; I have an Alto Gregory that has a metal band on the shank, Model-A closest to th ebeak, Rico with a treble staff in the middle and the trademark in a diamond below. On one side it has 4A and on the other 16. Is this model worth anything? It seems to have a decent sound but is a bit closed for me.

If your Model-A has the music staff & note(s) on it, it's
most likely a very early Model-A. Don't have any numbers,
but from what i've seen over the years, the music staff
was dropped moderately early. Most of the Model-A's i've
seen did not have the staff(but did continue to have
the diamond outline, Rico vergiage, etc, and of course,
had the metal band).

[ppamhk]

Gregory mouthpieces with more commonly found tip openings of 4 or 5 are a bit close in today's standard. For example, my Model A 5 is measured at 0.064 that requires good techniques to obtain articulate high notes (ie palm keys E, F, and F#). If you are using these pieces, could you please share your methods to tackle the small tip opening issue? Harder reed or open the tip? What's your experience?

[ppamhk]

Just want to clarify, I don't have a successful story to tell yet. That's why I asked.

[saintsday]

Don't open it. There are few enough originals left. If you try a harder reed and still can't get what you want, sell it original and try something else.

[ppamhk]

I read some articles saying that Paul Desmond used Model A 4A16 (and 4A18 later) and Rico 3.5 reeds which help to compensate the small tip opening. And some also said he had his mouthpiece modified.

I am very interested in knowing in what way his mouthpieces were altered/refaced? Who did the job for him? I doubt if there is information in the public domain. :?

[honkytone]

I've been told from a life-long sax playing friend of Desmond's that he's virtually certain Desmond did NOT have his MC Gregory pieces modified. That, despite alleged testimony from various mouthpiece guys who swear they did such work for Desmond. So who knows?

In Doug Ramsey's biography there' an account of a frustrated Desmond taking one of his mouthpieces and smashing it to bits with a hammer. Wonder how the people paying $400-600 for those pieces now feel about that?

[ppamhk]

In Doug Ramsey's biography there' an account of a frustrated Desmond taking one of his mouthpieces and smashing it to bits with a hammer. Wonder how the people paying $400-600 for those pieces now feel about that?

Indifferent. Well, if he had mouthpieces sponsored from MC Gregory, he could smash whenever he wanted.

[bruce bailey]

I've heard of opening up a mouthpiece but that may be a bit much.

[decade]

yes, there are many variations of Gregory mthpces out there, some of which are quite good, lots of which are not.

* Gregories without the metal band(typically known as 'Los Angeles' Gregories) were a cheaper more mass produced knockoff. There may be a good one out there, but i've never found it :)
These can be a Model-A, which confuses with the banded one.


* metal banded Gregories are usually the better mthpce.
Model-A is usually preferred to the Model-B. Model-B is too mellow/dead for most people.

* Master Model replaced the Model-A/B sometime in the late 1940s or around 1950 or so. Higher baffle, not as mellow of tone. No more Model-A or Model-B, just the 'Master'.

* the very last of the Master Model have the ring extending flush to the end of the mthpce. These were made around the time Charles Bay bought out the company. Not as good, in my opinion.

I like the Model-A, banded mthpces; others, don't interest me, altho others do like the Master Model.

Search under 'Gregory' or my id for -many- posts on this subject.

Go to Theo's website, mouthpieceheaven.com, drill down, he has pics & descriptions(altho some of his info is incorrect, it's a good start).

Is this the one you're referring to that sold recently on eBay?
According to the picture on mouthpieceheaven and what I can make out from the poor pictures on this auction, it looks as though "Model A" is not stamped on these "Los Angeles" models, but the rest of it looks pretty similar.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=001&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&viewitem=&item=110071410464&rd=1&rd=1

[ppamhk]

Doesn't look like a "Model A". It should be the later so called "Los Angeles" model.

[decade]

Doesn't look like a "Model A". It should be the later so called "Los Angeles" model.

Based on mouthpieceheaven's information, it is the "Los Angeles" model... however, AMASAX has added/corrected information regarding this mouthpiece...

With the naked eye, it does look like it's from the same blank. Stamping is in the same place, etc... I'm not sure how many mpcs MC Gregory made, so maybe this means nothing.

[AMASAX]

yes, yes, the above ebay mthpce is indeed a 'Los Angeles' model.
These are definitely not the same quality as the brass banded Model-A pieces.

While it's possible any individual piece could be a gem, my experience with these is such that i'll never pick up another one again - just not very good.

If you're in a position to try one first, or get your $$ back, might be worth trying, if'n you just gots to know :)

[honkytone]

Indifferent. Well, if he had mouthpieces sponsored from MC Gregory, he could smash whenever he wanted.

I'm pretty certain he wasn't "sponsored" by MC Gregory. I think those pieces were already out of production by the time he really hit the scene anyway.

[ppamhk]

Yesterday, I bought a minty MC Gregory 3/16 Model-A alto mouthpiece. Serial number is 4xxx with the ususal metal band at the end of the shank. I test played it side by side with my existing 5/20 Model-A (6xxx), and I was stunned.......BIG difference

1. The 3/16 is brighter (as expected because it has a smaller chamber) but much more powerful. High notes are more articulate. Overall, it still preserves the warmth core tonal characteristics of Gregories. I thought tip opening of 3 would be too small for me (as sometimes I need to struggle on the 5), but it turned out very playable and free blowing. So it surprised me a lot.

2. When I compared and inspected the 2 mouthpieces carefully, I was suprised that the length of 3/16 is shorter than the 5/20. I don't know why? Is it usual? Production inconsistency? Difference die casts? Customed made by the factory:? So much puzzles. The seller told me it is original - not modified. The tip and rails looks like original (can't be 100% sure). However, given 3/16's brighter and more powerful sound, I have reservation that it is original. The baffle of 2 mouthpieces are similar.

3. The chamber size of 3/16 is considerably smaller than 5/20. Saxophone mouthpiece Heaven said 16, 18, 20 chamber sizes do not differ much. I think that's wrong.

I will try to post some photos of the 2 mouthpieces for you to review. Please share your experience and views. Many thanks.

[Peter Stevens]

My Gregory sounds the least like Desmond of any I have used. The one time I met him in 1966, he was using a Brilhart tonalin in a 3* facing. I agree that it is not the horn or the mpc, it is the player. Although people think a Meyer has more edge than a Selmer, it is the other way around for me. I find the Gregory has a great buzzy sound that fills a room whereas my impression of Desmond is a compact crystal sound.

I agree with bruce! I can get more of a Desmond sound from my slant, closely followed by my NY meyer. Yes..., a compact crystal sound...very clean sounding indeed.

[ppamhk]

Yesterday, I bought a minty MC Gregory 3/16 Model-A alto mouthpiece. Serial number is 4xxx with the ususal metal band at the end of the shank. I test played it side by side with my existing 5/20 Model-A (6xxx), and I was stunned.......BIG difference

1. The 3/16 is brighter (as expected because it has a smaller chamber) but much more powerful. High notes are more articulate. Overall, it still preserves the warmth core tonal characteristics of Gregories. I thought tip opening of 3 would be too small for me (as sometimes I need to struggle on the 5), but it turned out very playable and free blowing. So it surprised me a lot.

2. When I compared and inspected the 2 mouthpieces carefully, I was suprised that the length of 3/16 is shorter than the 5/20. I don't know why? Is it usual? Production inconsistency? Difference die casts? Customed made by the factory:? So much puzzles. The seller told me it is original - not modified. The tip and rails looks like original (can't be 100% sure). However, given 3/16's brighter and more powerful sound, I have reservation that it is original. The baffle of 2 mouthpieces are similar.

3. The chamber size of 3/16 is considerably smaller than 5/20. Saxophone mouthpiece Heaven said 16, 18, 20 chamber sizes do not differ much. I think that's wrong.

I will try to post some photos of the 2 mouthpieces for you to review. Please share your experience and views. Many thanks.

Here is the link for some photos:

http://www.kodakgallery.com/ShareLandingSignin.jsp?Uc=bpbhji9.94ynh4jp&Uy=-13we5l&Upost_signin=Slideshow.jsp%3Fmode%3Dfromshare&Ux=0

Just click the "View Slideshow" button.

The 3/16 is always on the top or left. 5/20 is at the bottom or right.

[Chu-Jerry]

My model A 4A-16 is 3.4" (86.36mm) long.

[ppamhk]

I had the 3/16 measured by a mpc tech today. The tip opening is around 0.058 and the facing curve is 19mm.

[Andrew Ward]

Hi PPAMHK,
According to the three part series that Ralph Morgan wrote on the Gregory mouthpieces, the specs for your 3A 16 are bang on. You can be fairly sure from that that it is unmodified. Congratulations.

[ppamhk]

Hi PPAMHK,
According to the three part series that Ralph Morgan wrote on the Gregory mouthpieces, the specs for your 3A 16 are bang on. You can be fairly sure from that that it is unmodified. Congratulations.

Thanks, Andrew. Could you please let me know where I can read Ralph Morgan's article?

[Andrew Ward]

ppamhk,
I originally got it from someone who had scanned it from the Saxophone Journal. I think that I lost the scan with a hard drive crash. I will look for it, but you might contact the Journal for back issues?
Andrew

[ppamhk]

It is fine, Andrew. Thanks for sharing your views indeed.:)

[markm]

Happy New year all. I think this is a very informative thread on the Gregory MPs, so I'd thought I'd add an update. Even in this time of financial collapse, good money is still chasing down "the Paul Desmond sound" on EBay. Two worn, but good play condition Model-A 4A-16s for Alto closed on auction right around the stroke of midnight. Earlier one (sn 650) with musical staff engraving went for $255. The other (sn 6580) rang out the 2008 at a mere $203. Another one that had been a little butchered sold for $112 earlier in the week, so I thought the market was down. Very good prices since there were four alto MC gregory MPs listed this week (and 3 tenors). There is a real mystique about these pieces.

[AMASAX]

well, ~$200 is certainly lower than prices in the past, but could be these weren't in primo condition. I've seen excellent, unmodified examples of these go for considerably more than $200.

Only so many of 'me made, and there ain't anymore 'new' ones gonna be made...

[reinischMKVI]

have those auctions already ended?
im looking for one on ebay
does anyone know any comprable or decent "mock" gregory mouthpieces?
thanks

[Peterogping]

Yes the auctions mentioned have ended. I followed them, and can confirm that the mouthpieces were "cosmetically challenged", which may be the reason for the relatively low price.
The modern Meyer "G" is supposed to be a copy of an MCGregory. I haven't tried it so I can't tell.
Greg Wier has a copy of an MCGregory 5A 18 on ebay right now. If it is as good as his Meyer copies, I suggest you jump at it.
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=380093381608&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=025
If you miss it, look out for Gale mouthpieces as well. That's the name they switched to in the end. Those are also very good.
Good luck. (And if you get Greg Wier's mouthpiece, please let us know how you like it)

[reinischMKVI]

thank you
and yea if i get it i will tell you how i like it

[Conn6MVIII]

Yes, I followed those as well and while they looked to be in serious need of cleaning, it appears that someone got a good deal on those. I have seen these go for $500.00 routinely. Those 2 pieces could have been cleaned up easily. Oh well, I've already got a Model A 4A 16 which continues to be among my favorite pieces. A very vibrant and warm alto piece.

As for the Meyer G, I have one and they play / sound completely different than an MC Gregory piece. The G plays much brighter for me than a standard Meyer, (which can sound Desmondish with a hard reed). The G does have thick rails and you do get that dry hard whack sound as the reed vibrates against the thicker side rails. But it also seems to have a fairly small chamber and a bit of a tip baffle, (at least mine does) and this gives the piece an edgy brighter sound. As for the Gwind pieces, I did not have a good experience with my NY Meyer Copy piece. This was early on in his production though.


Happy New year all. I think this is a very informative thread on the Gregory MPs, so I'd thought I'd add an update. Even in this time of financial collapse, good money is still chasing down "the Paul Desmond sound" on EBay. Two worn, but good play condition Model-A 4A-16s for Alto closed on auction right around the stroke of midnight. Earlier one (sn 650) with musical staff engraving went for $255. The other (sn 6580) rang out the 2008 at a mere $203. Another one that had been a little butchered sold for $112 earlier in the week, so I thought the market was down. Very good prices since there were four alto MC gregory MPs listed this week (and 3 tenors). There is a real mystique about these pieces.

[Saxaholic]

That Gregory is not the same used by Paul Desmond. That is usually seen referred to as the "Los Angeles" model. Desmond's model was the early Model A's with a brass band on the shank and four digit serial number.

As quoted on Theo's site with a picture of the mouthpiece in auction:

"These are a very different mouthpiece than the Model A or Master. They have flat inner side walls alot like a Brilhart Ebolin or Tonalin. These still have a very nice sound and often have a bit of 'roll over' to the baffle at the tip, giving a bit more growl to the sound, not alot more, just a little more. All of these mouthpieces had serial numbers. There was one model made by Gregory called the "Micky Gillette" model that is very similar to this mouthpiece with the flat side walls and mildly increased brightness."

Hopefully you can change or edit the title and/or description.

Best of luck selling the pieces!

Saxaholic

[Fungus Mungus]

Sorry, but this piece has rounded inner sidewalls and is clearly marked Model A. There is no Los Angeles marking on this piece. While it may be a later Model A, it is a Model A and is a very different mouthpiece than the LA model.

fm

[Saxaholic]

It is not the same model mouthpiece used by Paul Desmond. Perhaps you're attempting a play on words, but it's dishonest.

Saxaholic

[drakesaxprof]

Sorry, but this piece has rounded inner sidewalls and is clearly marked Model A. There is no Los Angeles marking on this piece. While it may be a later Model A, it is a Model A and is a very different mouthpiece than the LA model.

fm

I would think that adding a photo of the 'Model A' inscription (top of the barrel) would clarify this.

[Fungus Mungus]

I just noticed that it does have Los Angeles stamped on it as well as Model A, but the mouthpiece is not the same as the Los Angeles model that Theo is referring to. The chamber and sidewalls are completely different, as is the composition of the mouthpiece (hard rubber vs fiber-filled resin).

fm

[Saxaholic]

It's still not the mouthpiece model that Paul Desmond used. His mouthpiece was a Model A with a brass band. It doesn't matter how comparable you think the mouthpiece is; it's not the same model.

If you can show me a single picture of Paul playing a mouthpiece shown in the auction, I'll humbly apologize and shut up.

Saxaholic

[Fungus Mungus]

I updated the auction. Let's move on...it's a nice piece and if you like that kind of sound, you'll like the piece, brass band or not.

fm

[Saxaholic]

You did right. Good luck selling the mouthpiece; these can be nice mouthpieces indeed.

Saxaholic

[drakesaxprof]

This seems like a good example of the fact that the distinctions between models may be more fluid than suggested by Theo's site. Here is a clear early Model A:

As compared with the composite 'Los Angeles' depicted on Theo's site:

The mouthpiece in question (auction) is here:

To my eye, it is remarkably similar to the early Model A, much more so than to the composite 'Los Angeles,' save for the absence of the brass band.
All three have the same markings in the diamond logo. Only two are marked 'Model A', and both of those also indicate Rico Products Ltd. Finally, it certainly appears to be hard rubber, and not the composite material.

Beyond this particular auction, this points out the grey areas that need to be acknowledged.

Fungus, if you prefer this be moved elsewhere, or deleted, please let me know. It struck me as an opportunity to explore this topic further.

[Conn6MVIII]

What about this one?


That Gregory is not the same used by Paul Desmond. That is usually seen referred to as the "Los Angeles" model. Desmond's model was the early Model A's with a brass band on the shank and four digit serial number.

As quoted on Theo's site with a picture of the mouthpiece in auction:

"These are a very different mouthpiece than the Model A or Master. They have flat inner side walls alot like a Brilhart Ebolin or Tonalin. These still have a very nice sound and often have a bit of 'roll over' to the baffle at the tip, giving a bit more growl to the sound, not alot more, just a little more. All of these mouthpieces had serial numbers. There was one model made by Gregory called the "Micky Gillette" model that is very similar to this mouthpiece with the flat side walls and mildly increased brightness."

Hopefully you can change or edit the title and/or description.

Best of luck selling the pieces!

Saxaholic

[Conn6MVIII]

Here's an underside photo. O.K., now I'm going to go do some Desmond stuff with it.

[runzoff]

Thank you Drakesaxprof!
I posted a piece FS just like Fungus' Model A with Los Angeles on the back, a serial number, but no metal band around the shank. It is NOT a composite piece either. These are really nice playing pieces with the "Desmond sound".

[Fungus Mungus]

drakesaxprof,

Well, I don't want to move the thread out of the FS threads as there are 2 other MPCs up there. :)

But, it would be good to move this thread after next Monday (the auctions end) and move it to the mouthpieces subforum...perhaps rename it.

I appreciate your input on this, drakesaxprof...I actually had a fiber-filled resin LA model that I sold on eBay (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=120328122689) a couple of months ago and it indeed is not at all the same model as the one I have up now.

Everyone takes Theo's site as gospel, but even he has admitted there are errors on the site. There was a thread about the ultra-rare Brilhart hard rubber soprano on his site. The one he has pictured has had the shank sawed off and he only recently realized it.

fm

[whaler]

As quoted on Theo's site with a picture of the mouthpiece in auction:




That site has quite a bit of misinformation about players mouthpieces, such as, not a mention of the Runyon Charlie Parker played, as well as the other metal mouthpieces he played.
This Japanese site did better research;
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/jazz/jazz/mouthpieces.htm

[Fungus Mungus]

Well, I wouldn't say that there is misinformation on the site as much as there is incomplete information. It's getting better, but to be honest, I'm sure Theo has more things to do than update that site...he's in the business of making mouthpieces after all. :)

That Japanese site is great if you're interested in what Parker played. I like this Japanese site (http://mpcroom.hp.infoseek.co.jp/). This guy gets mouthpieces and tries them all out, recording almost all of them. He doesn't give much detail on each model, but it is one of the most comprehensive lists of mouthpieces I've seen on the web.

fm