Removal of gold plated on otto link mpc

[terrant]

I am thinking to remove the golden plated coating of my otto link mpc by electroplating method. The material of otto link may be copper and zine in major so I am worrying about heavy metal poisoning, if I use my otto link without coating. Is it possible? I am grateful, if you could advise any comments.

[Johannes Gerber]

you really DON't have to worry about poisoning. Even if you eat your mpc. Some have a reaction to alloys of copper, zinc and tin. To me it have a funny taste (bronze) and working with it for extended periods of time make my hands feel dry. I make mouthpieces everyday, carving out chambers with a rotary tool and sanding pieces - I am exposed to millions of brass and bronze dust particles, up to the point where my hands are green after some day's work. I should have been dead long ago if it was poisonous - take care however NOT to inhale the dust particles for your health - those particles are so small - it will go into your lungs.

For playing a bare piece - really no hazard at all.

I play some bare bronze pieces as well and I test some every day.

[max]

(I agree, if you don't mind the taste, you'll be fine - but...)

Why do you want to remove the plating?

[terrant]

First, I have to give my gratitude to Johannes because your advice is so clear and practical. If you are one of guys working for manufacturing of mouthpiece, I find your advise is reliable. Thank you. Do you mind telling us what metal mpcs you work for normally?

Max, the reasons of removal of plating are, first I would like to test whether there are differences between a bare and plated mpc. It is said the sound is much "open" and better resonant for a bare mpc. My friend who is working for watch manufacture, could manage the removal plating for me (first trial). Second, I like the color of bronze!! Looks very antique. I have an Otto link which is quite perfect for me, so I will buy another one for trial and error to minimize the risk from removal process. I will tell you guys what is the outcome.

Johannes, do you think it is worthwhile trying this because of the above reasons? Thank you for your advise.

[MojoBari]

Some people are allergic to brass. I'm not, but I do not care for the taste of bare brass. After a 4 hour gig, I can taste it for 3 days.

If you are looking for a sonic difference, there are other areas to try that will be more fruitfull. A ligature change, a reed change, a refacing....

[terrant]

I don't mind about the taste. MojoBari, do you mind telling me what are the reasons you use uncoated mpc even the taste would be last for 3 days?

Some people are allergic to brass. I'm not, but I do not care for the taste of bare brass. After a 4 hour gig, I can taste it for 3 days.

If you are looking for a sonic difference, there are other areas to try that will be more fruitfull. A ligature change, a reed change, a refacing....

[MojoBari]

I reworked my chrome plated Runyon Quantum extensively. This caused a significant amount of brass to be exposed. I played several gigs on it to determine that is was a good piece for me. Since I did not like the taste, I tried my hand at brush plating over the brass. This worked well enough for my needs and I still use this piece as my #1 player.

[Johannes Gerber]

terrant, I've done various experiments with plated and unplated pieces - the differences are so minute that's it's really difficult to detect by ear. I cant see why there would be any increase in resonance. (since the plating on Links is thin anyway)

Ralph Morgan had a good article about mouthpieces and the effect of removing material - it does make a difference on rubber pieces. He states that it doesn't make a difference on metal, by I have found a piece to become thin sounding, tinny, if I remove a lot of material in the body or in the beak near the tip area.

The Otto Link alloy is far from the bronze I use - it's softer, lighter and yellow - almost like brass - I use an alloy with phosphor added - the raw material is dark with a very light pinkish/red colour - it's the most beautiful thing on earth when polished, but looses the shine quick when not polished.

You should consider the following: I see everyday how the lay change when the plating is added - my mpc's are plated 20micron silver, so I can even the facing after plating. (some don't change at all) A minute amount of uneven plating on a very accurate table can cause havoc and throw everything off.
If you have a recent Link, it won't make much difference, cause they're badly finish to start with. There is a possibility that the facing measurements may change - Babbit makes a HUGE concavity in the middle of the table - removing plating won't change much to that.

Think about it... decide... give it a go!!

You may get in contact with an artist that does bronze sculptures, they can add a patina to a piece and seal it - this will keep the body from oxidising - however - the lay and table shouldn't get the stuff, since it can go on unevenly and create bigger problems. There are beautiful patinas, some have a black colour with a blueish tinge, some brown/red.

Your welcome
Johannes
saxophones@sainet.co.za

[MojoBari]

What do they seal it with?

[jgiacome]

Hi Terrant:

had to respond to the brass mouthpiece issue - I more or less freaked out when I tested my brass Link (modified), for lead and it came up positive. After searching the internet for hours looking for even 1 documented case of lead poisoning from brass I came up with nothing. I even went to so far as to have my blood tested for lead - suprise - nothing. (can't imagine how many thousands of hours I've used that mouthpiece in the 7-8 years I've been playing it). The amount of lead in brass has a lot to do with when the brass was made - the older the brass - the higher the concentration. Lead poisoning is also a LOT more dangerous for small children than adults. I talked with every famous mouthpiece guy I could find - again they never heard of any cases. The only case(s) I read of that referred to brass poisoning were from trumpet players that had a bad reaction to the metal - sore lips, ect. No permanent damage or mortal peril.

Here's one VERY interesting thing I did find about de-leading the surface of brass - found on a beer home brew site of all places. Soaking bare brass in a 50/50 mix of hydrogen peroxide and white vinegar will put a tarnish on brass - it turns very yellow. This process removes lead from the surface of the metal (wouldn't recommend doing this for LONG periods of time - 3-5 minutes tops - the mixture is more or less acid !). But - I tested the oxidation and it came up negative for lead. However - it did seem to dull out the sound of the mouthpiece a lot - ended up shining off the oxidation with 'Never Dull'. (No permanent damage to the piece for the experiment - it still seals a reed just fine).

I've come to the conclusion that if do have enough time in my life to ingest enough toxins to do me harm from playing a metal saxophone mouthpiece I'll have lived a good LOOONG life indeed.

Good Luck,

Jeff

[Johannes Gerber]

Mojo,

I don't know exactly, I read it in my research. I'll see how fast I can find out - It stated that the finish only needed attention 2 times a year = this is for fine art bronze sculptures - don't know how it will react to the acids in ones mouth - and everyday use.

[Johannes Gerber]

"Traditionally, the patineur (artist of patinas) who has applied the patina finish and sealer, either wax and/or synthetic lacquers..."

"After patination, the bronze sculpture is then traditionally "sealed" with waxes and/or lacquers. This sealing is done to protect both the color of the patina and the surface of the bronze. Left unsealed, bronze is quite sensitive to color changes that are brought about by its' exposure to the immediate atmosphere."
Quoted

Laquer won't last long on a mouthpiece though.

JVW recommended to dry the mpc each time after playing - which is a good habbit. Polishing the piece to a shine once in a while will do - and wash it afterwards - also - the oxidation process is a lot slower if the mpc is stored away in a air tight holder.