View Full Version : Conn "Lady" Tenor $362 on eBay
bobsax
10-26-2005, 05:02 PM
I have nothing to do with this sale but it looks like a bargain for someone that likes these horns . The seller mis-labeled it as a Baritone. I personally think it's nuts to pay big bucks for these old clunkers.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Antique-Baritone-Silver-Saxaphone-with-Case-Circa-1940_W0QQitemZ7359629384QQcategoryZ16233QQrdZ1QQcm dZViewItem
Is this a Naked Lady ?
abadcliche
10-26-2005, 05:49 PM
yes i believe so, and it looks like its silver plated, which is a bit more rare than the lacquered version.
The top looks really bent forward.
These "old clunkers" have a fantastic sound.
paulwl
10-26-2005, 06:29 PM
I think what you're trying to say is that the body looks bowed.
It is, btw, about a 1952 10M.
DirkW
10-26-2005, 06:39 PM
I personally think it's nuts to pay big bucks for these old clunkers.Those "old clunkers" can play darm good when set up correctly. I owned a 10m a few years ago. It wasn't on the market for long at $1200.
I noticed Jason DuMars is the current high bidder (www.saxophone.org). This isn't his first 10m.
bobsax
10-26-2005, 06:59 PM
My first tenor was an Aristocrat and was I glad to get rid of it .
(yes I was) :D
If you want to play like the old guys of the 40's and 50's then get an old horn . If you want to play anything modernish or highly technical I think the Keilwerth (or any pro new horn) is a better solution . I don't think any of the modern masters play the old clunkers . I personally think you're not getting good value if you pay a lot for one of these old horns . They seem more like collector items .
:blackeye:
My first tenor was an Aristocrat and was I glad to get rid of it .
(yes I was) :D
If you want to play like the old guys of the 40's and 50's then get an old horn . If you want to play anything modernish or highly technical I think the Keilwerth (or any pro new horn) is a better solution . I don't think any of the modern masters play the old clunkers . I personally think you're not getting good value if you pay a lot for one of these old horns . They seem more like collector items .
:blackeye:
What do you mean by "play like the old guys"? The tone? Phrasing?
BayviewSax
10-26-2005, 07:04 PM
My first tenor was an Aristocrat and was I glad to get rid of it .
(yes I was) :D
If you want to play like the old guys of the 40's and 50's then get an old horn . If you want to play anything modernish or highly technical I think the Keilwerth (or any pro new horn) is a better solution . I don't think any of the modern masters play the old clunkers . I personally think you're not getting good value if you pay a lot for one of these old horns . They seem more like collector items .
:blackeye:
Except that Bergonzi, one of the more amazing technicians, can play just about anything he wants on just about any horn.
altoblues
10-26-2005, 07:09 PM
"If you want to play anything modernish or highly technical I think the Keilwerth (or any pro new horn) is a better solution . I don't think any of the modern masters play the old clunkers ." (haven't figured out how to use the quote function, sorry)
Right. That's why Mark Tuner plays an SBA, that's why Chris Potter plays an SBA, that Seamus Blake plays an SBA, that's why Jerry Bergonzi plays an old Selmer 'Tommy Dorsey' model, that's why Lee Konitz, Bob Mover, David Sanborn, David Liebman (last time I saw him), Michael Brecker (last time i saw him) and lots(!) of others play these old, clunky horns. Not Conns, but old horns none the less.
If you play a new horn and like it, that's cool. I'm happy for you. I'm happy for the thousands of people that play them and yes, they are sometimes easier to play, and yes they sometimes are the only horns to produce a certain sound conception that someone hears ...
If you don't like old horns, I'm equally happy for you. More for the rest of us. :D
bobsax
10-26-2005, 07:10 PM
Technique . If they were so great Brecker , Berg , Coltrane , etc would have played them .
They didn't because they're slow . :twisted:
altoblues
10-26-2005, 07:14 PM
Do some research man. Brecker does play an "old" horn. Not this old, but a 5 digit VI, so old enough. Bob Berg played a lot of horns, and some of them were classics.
Coltrane did most of his early recordings on a Selmer SBA, and everything else on a VI...an early VI.
Liebman was playing an early VI when I did a workshop with him a couple of years back.
Bergonzi plays a Selmer from the 1930s.
Talk technique!??! - Chris Potter plays an SBA, as does Mark Turner.
Fast is in your fingers, not your horn (all the time). Charlie Parker, anyone? Art Pepper anyone?
bobsax
10-26-2005, 07:14 PM
Sorry guys
Of course I don't mean Selmer (I play one) . I'm talking about Conn , Buesher , King , Martin . etc.
Technique . If they were so great Brecker , Berg , Coltrane , etc would have played them .
They didn't because they're slow . :twisted:
Nah, those horns are not slow. You can fly on a 10M, Super20, Aristocrat. You just have to take some time to get used to them. My friend plays a 10m and he can't stand the feel of a VI, Yamaha or Yani.
SactoPete
10-26-2005, 07:53 PM
Hmmm... this one deserves a rare "flame" from me.
...don't a lot of classical players play old horns, like Buescher true-tones and conn 6ms? Some of the stuff they do is crazy-technical and crazy-fast.
And of course, let's not forget the speed at which Chu Berry himself played, or, say a fellow named Charlie Parker (maybe you've heard of him) that absolutely killed on any old horn he played (including an old "clunker" conn 6m and even a plastic sax), or Dexter Gordon who played a 10m for a good part of his career.
Methinks he knows not of which he speaks.
New horns are great, Selmers are fantastic. But I think that player preference comes down to endorsements, availability, ease of finding someone who will fix it, "comfort level", and tonal preferences... not anything to do with ultimate performance capability. There IS life outside of new horns and selmers, even if you can't find it. Dude, just because the 'crat didn't work for YOU doesn't mean they wouldn't rip shreds in the hands of someone else.
............... oh, wait... what am I thinking? yes, YES! All these old Conns, Martins, Bueschers, SMLs, etc., THEY ALL SUCK. That's right. Take my word for it, even if I haven't played many of them. Don't even try them! Go drop your $5k on a nice new Selmer or Y-horn or whatever, and leave these terrible worthless old clunker horns to those of us... er, I mean, those people who don't know any better. Really, please.
Pete
HonkBopSax
10-26-2005, 08:02 PM
Pgaylord, you are so right.
This forum is 95/5. 95% ametuers who'd rather talk ABOUT saxophones then actually play theirs ... 5% professionals who view this board as an occasionally valuable resource. The 95%'ers get their 'daily practice' by talking about tip openings, should I trade my stock STM 6* for a 7, and the like ... to make some uninformed statement like: 'If they were so great Brecker , Berg , Coltrane , etc would have played them . They didn't because they're slow.' Shows a good bit of ignorance. Bergonzi has recorded on his Conn's almost as often as his Selmers....anybody notice a difference? Guys like Mark Shim don't seem to have a problem 'getting around' on a Conn, nor does James Carter.
Who here would rather be able to play changes or talk mouthpieces?? Wait, but talking about mouthpieces is a lot more fun than learning to play changes, isn't it? Hmmm....
bobsax
10-26-2005, 08:13 PM
Pete
Whatever . It doesn't really matter .
Keep practicing .
You can hear me at.
http://bobsax.com/listen.html
bobsax
10-26-2005, 08:19 PM
"5% professionals who view this board as an occasionally valuable resource. The 95%'ers get their 'daily practice' by talking about tip openings, "
So true Honk and I've been goofing around all day on this site when I should be getting the charts ready for tonights rehearsal !
Threads that go off into "Yo momma is so ugly.." territory are each, in their own, little trainwrecks that we all wish wouldn't happen but can't seem to turn our heads away from...
Mark5047
10-26-2005, 08:47 PM
Some saxophone greats have been mentioned here as playing on the old 'clunkers' and still had that wonderful sound and speed, and I would guess that they would have similar amazing results if they used paper towel tubes, rubber bands and soup can lids with a kazoo on the end of it (ok, exaggeration for effect) but the main point I think is that most of us can't play like that, otherwise there would be nothing special about those players - and why add the extra stress of fighting an older horn with potential intonation issues, older keywork etc unless there is at least some desire for the collectability of the instrument.
There is something to be said for technology, but I agree the sound of those older horns is hard to top.
This forum is 95/5. 95% ametuers who'd rather talk ABOUT saxophones then actually play theirs ... And you back that up with....?
There's no doubt this board is heavily populated by amateurs or hobbyists but that doesn't mean that because people are discussing mpc's, cases, reeds or what have you that they are amateurs who are only concerned with these matters and certainly not to the extent of 95.5% -however you came up with that "fact".
It's a little hard to have a jam session or be playing master class on a forum. There are things you can discuss and there are things you can play. You can't play a forum so that leaves the written word.
Personally, I play in a big band, a regional symphonic wind ensemble, and a pop band, as well as directing two city bands. I relax on this forum between my musical activities, from which I make 100% of my income.
HonkBopSax
10-26-2005, 08:55 PM
So let's get this train back on track! I had a fleet of Selmers until I tried a Couf. A Couf was designed with the 10M and 30M in mind, but with modern ergonomics, and, as I understand it, the Keilwerth's were conceptualized in the same way. I've let exactly 5 'good' tenor players in Boston (4 Slmer Vi players, 1 Buescher Top Hat & Cane) try my Couf on various gigs. Every single one of them had the same 'Holy S*^&t reaction'. These horns are incredibly easy to get around, have a much bigger and much deeper sound than any Selmer I've tried, and the intonation is spot on. Now, I love my horn, but every time I pick up a good 10M ... they just roar. It's the kind of horn I could learn to play fast. :)
And we're forgetting Gene Ammons! He played Conn's, and to my mind, nobody represents tenor speed & heat like Gene and Johnny Griffin.
altoblues
10-26-2005, 09:03 PM
ah, but I think the point that has been raised (and I concurr), is that any good horn in good repair will play well, and will allow a player to play as well as HE / SHE can. He or she will be able to play fast, high, loud etc with PRACTICE ...on any horn. any horn. any horn.
The rest comes down to what you like the sound of. And many, many, many of the greats both today and in the past have played old Selmers, Conns, Martins, Bueschers etc. Most of them could have played anything they wanted (especially today with sponsorhip deals etc) ... but they stuck with what they liked, and keywork be damned.
So yes, if you don't have much time to work on things and have this as a hobby, by all means pick whatever works the best FOR YOU. If that's a modern horn, awesome. But don't make the mistake of thinking that older keywork is any sort of an obstacle to someone with the time and inclination to conquer it. This isn't meant as a slam against amateur players ... many people love the saxophone but can't spend their lives at it. Just the way things work out sometimes. But those folks that don't spend most of their waking hours with a horn in their hands should understand that for those of us that do, keywork doesn't make much of a difference. I tell my students the same thing ... if you love the SOUND, you can teach yourself to play the horn.
But to each his own, and good luck to all of us. :)
And we're forgetting Gene Ammons! He played Conn's, and to my mind, nobody represents tenor speed & heat like Gene and Johnny Griffin....and Don Menza, an amazing musician and very fast player. And dare we say it?....Dexter?
SactoPete
10-26-2005, 09:05 PM
Pete
Whatever . It doesn't really matter .
Keep practicing .
You can hear me at.
http://bobsax.com/listen.html
bobsax,
You certainly are a good musician (Moonlight in Vermont was fantastic btw), but your discussion / debate skills are weak. This "I'm a better player than you, so I'm right" approach is formally known as an "argument ad hominem" (you might want to look it up), and is without merit. Kinda schoolyard-childish, actually. I don't even need to be able to play a note to stand by my comments above.
And as far as practice time vs. discussion-board time, you guys are totally right there.... I certainly fall into the "guilty" category, not by choice, but by need - and I'll bet many of the folks on this forum fall into this category too... you see, it's easy for me here in my office to entertain and distract myself occasionally to break up the monotony with a favorite hobby by surfing these forums... not so easy to practice here, my co-workers may object to an hour's worth of my meager talent playing long-tones, stumbled runs, and searching for the most stable fingering for D4. Bummer.
Pete
saxyben
10-26-2005, 10:56 PM
Hi Guys, 95% of this site viewers probably are amateur sax players compared to the 5% of serious pro horn players, but we want to learn from the best(5%).
I might be a 95% sax player but I know all instruments have their own character & much as a Yamaha 62 is a good sax, it won't have the character of a 10M, MkVI etc. I have had not so good vintage saxes as well as good ones, so Bobsax is not the only one to have such an opinion.
vonbraig
10-26-2005, 11:25 PM
Bob Sax,
I like your sound a lot. Nice eyes Prez.
bobsax
10-26-2005, 11:50 PM
Hey Pete
Thanks For The complement (I think?)
I thought from my "Na Na" comment it might be obvious that I am teasing on this subject .
Back when I was learning to play in the 70's, these horns were for beginners . As I said , My first horn was an Aristocrat . In my meager opinion the rise in Selmer value has caused these other horns to go up too. The thing is ;Selmer was a superior horn. Which is why almost everybody played them back then.
bobsax
10-26-2005, 11:57 PM
I just wanted to add that the new horn market today has a lot more choices of very good horns .
SactoPete
10-27-2005, 04:00 AM
Bobsax,
I unfortunately bristled a bit - tough day at work (despite my attempts at diversion here at SOTW), and I missed that you were teasing... communication subtleties don't come across well in a forum such as this. That being said, I still have to disagree with your generalization RE the quality of non-selmer vintage horns. Sure, there's bound to be duds out there (and if your 'crat was a 70s model, it was actually after Selmer bought out Buescher and turned it into a lower student line), but there's lots of great horns to be had too. The existence of a non-trivial number of pro players past and present that prefer Bueschers, Conns, Martins, SMLs, Buffets, whatever to anything modern and/or Selmer speaks to that.
Anyways, I see you are in the Bay Area - if you find yourself heading out to my neck of the woods (Sacramento) for whatever reason drop me a line and I'll try to change your mind with my "Clunker" Buescher TH&C and "Dog" Conn 30m.... if I do, you'll owe me a pint.
Pete
Bobsax,
Checked out your recording of "Moonlight in Vermont".
You might want to take out some of those "strange notes" in the bridge. Stop puffing your cheeks so much or at least pull out a little bit and play more on the tip (Ala Rabbit) Excessive puffing messes up the intonation, especially in the upper register. I thought it strange that you played the entire melody in the middle and low register and soloed only in the middle and upper register. Sounds like two different guys were playing. Check out Stan Getz, Zoot Sims or Al Cohn for continuity of conception in all registers.
Also, you might want to try using a darker mouthpiece with a large chamber, just like the guys you imitate. Get their records and take some of the stuff off and try to get a little closer to the spirit and sound of Pres and Bean. I would also recommend that you get a Chu or 10M. A lot easier to subtone and the sound spreads more and sustains a little easier
Check out what Dexter Gordon or Gene Ammons or Sonny Rollins (Super 20 too)can do with a 10M (Or Bergonzi, Lovano, Jan Garbarek). Other than the intonation, conception and sustain problems ( the 10m would definitely help the sustain) I thought your record was nice, though a little heavy on ballads. Unless of course you call it "Mostly Ballads". Or unless some were played at a non-ballad tempo.
bobsax
10-28-2005, 10:03 PM
This thread got a lot of views . I wonder if anybody from SOTW bought it
---------------Hey Les ! Did you want the horn ? It might have gone for cheaper if I hadn't shot my big puffy cheeks mouth off .
I see you're from Boston so maybe you weren't trying to be offensive on purpose . I'm not trying to imitate anybody. I use the album to get hotel and resturant gigs so the tunes are on the mellow side . Unfortunatly I have to play a lot of rock gigs so if I ever imitate anybody it would be Sanborn or Brecker if the price is right http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/images/icons/icon6.gif
FYI.I think I mentioned It's a Keilwerth SX90R . The mouthpiece is a Metal V16 T95. with Oliveri(I think)3.5 reeds .
Hurling Frootmig
02-14-2006, 03:31 PM
I'm coming to this thread way late and wanted to point out the Aristocrat that Bobsax played as a student was a student horn and is not in the same league as the earlier pro Aristrocrat's nor the TH&C 400's. I think what he was trying to say was that he preferred modern key work to the more vintage key work of the Conn's and Buescher's. I can appreciate that I enjoy the key work on my VI's and Keilwerth's but there's something special about the tone of the Aristocrats and 400's and the key work is plenty workable. In fact, certain things are easier with vintage key work. And finally, Johnny Hodges didn't seem to have any problems with it. Lester Young was amazing on those old Conn's. Zoot Sims swung like no one else on that old Radio Improved.
... and please tell me why this whole thread is in the Marketplace?
Maybe "ebay experiences" or "Conn"???
Hurling Frootmig
02-14-2006, 04:05 PM
George,
Good point. I have moved it to the Conn area.
bobsax
02-14-2006, 05:18 PM
This thread started because there was a horn for sale on eBay that was miss-labeled . Due to all the attention from this thread the horn went for much more ...... and I didn't even get a "thank you" from the seller :cry:
Dave dix
02-14-2006, 05:27 PM
The horn went for what it was worth
Dave
This thread started because there was a horn for sale on eBay that was miss-labeled . Due to all the attention from this thread the horn went for much more ...... and I didn't even get a "thank you" from the seller :cry:
Please take a look at the various forums available before you post next time. If you take the time to read the requirements for posting to the Marketplace, you'll learn that this thread was not appropriate.
You think that the horn sold for more because of you? Don't worry. There are plenty of people watching eBay for such "anomalies".
You need a "thank you"? :cry:
Here:
Thank you. :D
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