Can somebody help me on reed adjustments

[altosaxguy1]

I need help on reed adjustments i use vandoren (blue box) 2.5's so far i just test them and if they arn't good i sand the bottom (flat side of the reed) until i get an easy playing sound and does anybody have any reed suggestions on a 10 box of reeds under $25.

Thanks

[groovesax]

(a) don't sand the bottom side, if you need to soften
(b) soak them and break them in slowly.
(c) there are lots of other reeds besides vandoren blue box. The blue box has a reputation for being very inconsistent
(d) lots of advice in the reeds section of this forum.

[Mike Cesati]

Many good books out there.

I have learned from Larry Teal book "Art of Playing the Saxophone"

and the Dave Liebman book "Developing a Personal Saxophone Sound"

Good practical info there. Also the video "Joe Allard the Master Speaks"
has some insights by Joe Allard on the subject.

[irimi]

I started studying sax in the early to mid-50’s and studied privately up through mid-high school, at which time I started playing professionally – although “don’t quit your day job” professionally.

I took a brief 30+ year break, although I kept my horns and played very intermittently. I have, however, started playing again and am resuming lessons and hope to go back and do a degree in music when I retire in a few years.

I have only recently stumbled upon SOTW and am simply astounded by the amount of discussion related to equipment/setup, as well as that surrounding technical info re: things like embouchure, etc.

I suppose that discussions like those on SOTW occurred even back in the 50’s, but w/o a web, I was aware of almost none of it. I got an SML tenor around the time I entered HS and, while I knew that Selmer horns were the popular pro horn, my folks new someone who had a line on SLM’s and so that’s what I got. I had no idea that they were actually great horns or would eventually develop quite a cult following. In any event, I played the stock MPC and played whatever reeds the music store had – usually ricos. I don’t believe I ever had my horn properly setup – beyond the factory setting.

Overall, my music teachers seemed to take the view that a “poor workman quarrels with his tools,” and that any shortcomings in my playing were, well, shortcomings in my playing. Their response to my requests to learn things that might help me improvise were similarly dealt with. I was asked if I could generally play anything that I could sing and, when I agreed that I could, that seemed to close the discussion. On the other end of the continuum, so to speak, I had no idea that a repertoire for classical sax existed.

If I had access to discussions like those on SOWT, I might have pursued music more seriously I guess – although many of the guys and gals I played with did so even without that - so maybe the lack of info and discussion might not have mattered in my career choice. It might have made some difference in my playing satisfaction, however.

Anyway, I enjoy the discussions and think that they serve the sax community well – with one caveat, which harkens back to my own early experience and observations over time. Spending time looking for the elusive perfect set up (for example) is fine in moderation. For the most part, however, hours spent in such pursuits seem to me to be way better spent practicing/playing. I would guess that most experienced players would agree, but, IMHO (I guess all of this is IMHO), it seems important to make sure that new players realize it. It seems pointless to worry about a perfect set up before you have enough experience to even recognize it. Further, my guess is that the “perfect set up” changes a lot during the first few years of playing.

Rant over – I’ve gotta go play.

[Dave Dolson]

Irimi: Welcome to SOTW. As far as your last sentence in the next to last paragraph, I think the perfect set-up keeps changing, even beyond the first few years of playing.

I must be in your time-frame; I began playing (I wouldn't call it "studying" - I shoulda done that) in 1956, never gave up my day job, and I am still playing in my retirement years. DAVE

[Saxland]

Harken!!!!What a great word!!!! I forgot about it. Learnt something new today......

I do spend time here everyday, and its been worth it. Here are some reasons why:

1) Lambersons Rock thread!!!! Now I Own One. Who knew? Best mouthpiece I ever played. That saves me tons....
2) Vintage Conn, its now my main horn. Never find one locally. Or learn about them from non sellers.
3) Issues of doubts..... can be aired here....WOW!!!
4) Musicial posts......Tim Prices's posts of.. listen to this guy.....Priceless :) and educational
5) Dynaction tenor, never heard of it...must be junk...I'm done with wanting a VI tenor. This one smokes many VI's. Found info here from players, or buffet SDA players. I ended up with a winner. So did my wallet.
6) Listening to some very talented players who post their sounds and some weekend players that want to have fun. Everyone gets a reality check about why we play in the first place.
7) Heads up on who is really honest to deal with.
8) Access to really great or good mouthpieces, straight trades on trust happen here, just throw it in the mail between members that have built a relationship.

Come to think of it, in the long run, this site has saved me alot of $. This with ebay and saxpics.com has been a real sonic journay, of harkening proportions.;) ...Guess I still have a bit more to learn......

My number one reason is something I just really dig. EVERY pro player on this site I emailed has written back with honest answers, an honest "I don't know....but so and so might" or let me help you with that problem. Very helpful and great people helping people. This site is great for people that are looking for that something they can't find but are willing to look, and hear.

[gary]

What was the question? :scratch: :D


The suggestions above of Teal, Liebman and Allard are good ones with one caveat: if the Allard video is the one I've got be forwarned: it's a little, er, quirky. IMO out of respect for Joe it should never have been released.

[Saxland]

Oh yes the reason why this thread exists.......:)


I like the v16's, but when I use the vandoren blue box on alto I use Bootmans drilling technique, to ease up the wood.

http://www.geocities.com/reed_drilling/

[altosaxguy1]

on the website how does that help and what if you dont have a drilling press?

[irimi]

Yea, I guess my response was a bit afield, but seeing the discussions in regard to mpc's and reeds, etc., it just occurred to me and, having never posted anything, thought I would. Might have been better put somewhere else (maybe my computer's recycle bin, but anyway.

I, too, spend quite a bit of time with SOTW. I enjoy it and hope that my time will be well spent. So far, it's actually cost me money, but hopefully will gain me a wonderful new horn.

I certainly didn't mean to criticize the value of SOTW, or browsing it. Only expressing my amazement at the magnitude of discussion, my wish that it had been available when I began (in '53 or '54) and offering a word of caution to young players. I accept that doing so may be a bit presumptuous, but I assume that if it is - and/or if it's off base, it will be well ignored.

In fact, my caution is probably just projecting on others a warning I ought to be giving myself.

[altosaxguy1]

im not really looking to take down the hardness just make the reed more playable by making it an effortless blow some of the reeds i get you really have to blow to get sound like how do yu make those like some of the good reed in a box

what would you say the best reed for a eugene rousseau mouthpiece and a cannonball would be? perferably not expensive

[JL]

(a) don't sand the bottom side, if you need to soften
(b) soak them and break them in slowly.

I agree that you need to spend some time breaking in a reed. Once that's done (maybe two or three 15 minute sessions, followed by a longer session), if the reed is still too hard or plays stuffy, I find that a few swipes on very fine sandpaper on the bottom of the reed works wonders to make the reed more playable.

[Saxland]

A drill with the right bit works for me.

[groovesax]

I find that a few swipes on very fine sandpaper on the bottom of the reed works wonders to make the reed more playable.

Hmmm...counter to what I've always been advised, but hey you live and learn. Guess I'll have to give it a try.

[sw3119]

http://www.dornpub.com/SaxjPDF/reed1.pdf
http://www.dornpub.com/SaxjPDF/reed2.pdf

Check out these two links to articles in the Saxophone Journal about reeds/adjustments.

[altosaxguy1]

thank you sooooooooo much to all that helped with my reed "problem"

[altosaxguy1]

thank you sooooooooo much to all that helped with my reed "problem"

[JL]

Hmmm...counter to what I've always been advised, but hey you live and learn. Guess I'll have to give it a try.

groovesax, I'm always open to better methods. I got the tip to sand the bottom of the reed somewhere on this site and I tried it and it worked. Keep in mind I generally only have to sand about 1 reed out of 5. The rest seem to break in fine. What counter advice have you been given? And any reasons why? I'd like to know, since I'm no expert at reed adjustment.

[Saxland]

Try a hemkee reed, when I start messing with the reed, I end up getting that free blowing flexable feel they give me. They don't last as long I find, but are worth a try. I LOVE them on soprano, very easy. I used to play Hemkee years ago. I feel there is a kind of Cannonballish (new word 8-) )quality about them.

[Saxland]

Or Cannonballish-esqe quality.

[sw3119]

I've alway heard that you shouldn't sand the bottom of the reed, but what you should do is turn the sandpaper over to the smooth side and then rub the bottom of the reed on it (the smooth side, with the sandpaper on a flat surface). This will give a nice smooth flat surface to make contact with the mouthpiece.

I had a teacher one time who would use a reed knife on the bottom of the reed to make it smooth.

[JL]

I've alway heard that you shouldn't sand the bottom of the reed, but what you should do is turn the sandpaper over to the smooth side and then rub the bottom of the reed on it (the smooth side, with the sandpaper on a flat surface). This will give a nice smooth flat surface to make contact with the mouthpiece.

I had a teacher one time who would use a reed knife on the bottom of the reed to make it smooth.

When you "smooth the bottom" of the reed, even when rubbing it on a relatively smooth surface, you are essentially sanding it. When I sand it on very fine sandpaper, I only give it a couple of swipes with slight pressure. This also smooths out the back of the reed very nicely. It guess it should work equally well to sand the upper surface, but that hasn't worked as well for me. Then again, I should point out that I haven't, and don't, spend a lot of time working on reeds, so I'm no expert at it.

[groovesax]

What counter advice have you been given? And any reasons why? I'd like to know, since I'm no expert at reed adjustment.

Just as far as I've been taught, all the sanding gets done top side. Recognize that this is coming from someone who generally would rather slap on a fibracell than fuss with cane. I'm thinking, maybe a little sanding the bottom side might be a worthwhile experiment.

[JL]

I'm with you on not wanting to fuss with reeds. I play cane and luckily don't have to mess with them all that much, beyond breaking them in. But I'd still like to hear from someone who can tell me WHY it's better to sand the top of the reed than the bottom. Or why NOT sand the bottom. It's the "why" I'm after.

[drakesaxprof]

Sanding (or adjusting with a reed knife) the top of the reed is for dealing with balance, response, etc. Sanding the bottom deals strictly with flatness/sealing. They're two entirely separate issues and procedures. The Vandoren reed re-surfacer is good for dealing with sanding the bottom. As for the top, a good-quality reed knife, some tiny bits of fine wet/dry sandpaper, and, most importantly, knowing what you're doing.
JR

[altosaxguy1]

i am trying to find info on the alexander supials?????? and the classiques does anyone know any thing

do v16's really make the read stronger than it really is? ex 2.5 acting as a 3.5

[saxfreak]

So far nobody has mentioned the Ridenour ATG reed system. I bought it recently and have been impressed so far. The concept is different from most conventional thinking, and it is quite simple to learn. I haven't been using this system for very long, so my opinion could change in the future. It's not cheap, but I thought it was worth the investment. So far I have only used it on clarinet and bass clarinet reeds - I haven't tried it on sax reeds, but I expect that it will work on sax reeds the same as clarinet/bass clarinet.

As far as old-school tips, I'm originally a clarinet player, and one of my teachers suggested rubbing the bottom of the reed on a flat surface - I used music paper. Supposedly this seals the pores and makes the reeds play longer.

Another thing I picked up on my own. After playing a reed for a while, it tends to warp into the open space just above the top of the table. When this happens, I scrape the bottom of the reed against the edge of the bottom of a music stand (if the edge of the stand is reasonably flat and sharp). That often helps a lot with an old reed that is dying out.

[Michael Ward]

Alexander Reeds have a website. It's all there. Vandoren V16 reeds are designed with more wood in them therefore a 2 1/2 V16 feels stiffer or harder than a 2 1/2 Vandoren Java for instance which has a lighter "cut."

[EFlat]

I am of the opinion that playing with a sound that you like improves your playing. I have spent many practice sessions fruitless because I am "fighting" with the reed: "oh, that ones too soft, this one's too hard, this one doesnt hold the high notes, this one is too stuffy etc...." So I don't buy into the poor workman blames his tools. If the reed is problem, then your sound is crappy to your ear.

I am on a big time quest for a good reed.. I have been playing Bari Synthetic medium reeds on a meyer 5 with the metal selmer lig on a balanced action alto with a MVI neck...

The Bari Syth, is consistent most of the time...most of the time. But I do come across ones that are waaay to bright, and them way to stuffy. At 6 - 12 bucks a pop, I cant afford to dispose of reeds and keep looking. I need a consistent reed.

[Bootman]

The drilling the reed does work and work well. Use it ona slightly stiffer reed than you would normally play. You may also have to balance the shoulders of the reed. Do all this before you seal the reed with the reverse (paper side) of the sandpaper.

As for the theory about "a bad workman blaming his tools", this is yet another platitude to hide the fact that the teacher is ignorant of any of the reed fixing techniques. Once you have played with a fixed reed, there is no going back.

[CMelodyMan]

Bob Ackerman's site, bobackermansaxophones.com has great info on reed ajustments.

[Dog Pants]

JL,
I'm with you on this one, however I use a knife to ensure the bottom of the reed is flat. That said, I'm also prone to laziness and the resultant use of Plasticovers. :) The first time Bootman showed me how to "fix" a reed, I was astounded at just how huge an improvement it made. Took him all of 60 seconds or so and played and sounded fantastic. Takes me a little longer, but then again I haven't been doin it for 25 years.