Snap-ins (once and for all)

[SactoPete]

Hi,

OK, I've read a ton of posts on the subject and never found a definitive answer on the issue of snap-in pads.

I underestand the obvious issue if it is a collectable horn (such as a TH&C) that you don't want to remove the snaps as it will diminish perceived value in the event that you will sell it.

But, I recently bought a 400 Bari (pre-buyout) off of e-bay and it needs new pads. I'm trying to go the least expensive route with this, so I'm going to use a local tech with a good reputation and affordable pricing. He's asked if I want to leave the snap-ins, or switch 'em out... he said it's a little easier to set the pads with regular non-snap-ins, but would be fine doing it either way (although it might cost me a bit more if I go the snap-in route). I don't think that for this non-collectable horn it'll make that much of a difference in its value, and I'm wondering if I might just be wasting money by keeping the snap-ins....

Which gets to the crux of the issue - is there any reason to NOT remove the snaps in this case? Sure, I know that it was made with them, but my car came with crappy tires and I got rid of those pronto... and pretty much every other sax seems to do fine without snap-ins... is it really a purist issue at the end of the day?

Pete

[knighttrain]

a purist issue at the end of the day

[Dave Dolson]

Pete: I think it IS a purist issue at the end of the day. I patronize one the most respected repair-techs in the business (Rheuben Allen) and he urges any Buescher with snap-ins to be re-padded using modern pads. He did my TT alto that way (no snap-ins) and it plays great. Another good tech who has since passed on did my TT soprano with modern pads and it is the best sop I've ever played.

I have a second TT sop with snap-ins and it doesn't measure up to my non-snap-in TT. Do the pads make the difference? Who knows, but the horn with modern pads plays great. I have read the same discussions over and over and I can't really argue the issue other than to say my Bueschers play great either way. DAVE

[tophatsax]

a purist issue at the end of the day
I think this is probably a very accurate statement.

[Dave dix]

Shame to remove the snaps as my bari plays and feels nice with the snap in pads. Wouldn't it cost more to remove the snaps as the nubs have to be removed as well ?
If he removes them try to get the snaps back as they are getting hard to find and any buescherphile may want to buy them
Dave

[tbone]

Shame to remove the snaps as my bari plays and feels nice with the snap in pads. Wouldn't it cost more to remove the snaps as the nubs have to be removed as well ?
If he removes them try to get the snaps back as they are getting hard to find and any buescherphile may want to buy them
Dave

Good point! If you have him remove them then sell those puppies on ebay for all you can get! If the spuds are the wide based (soft soldered) then have him remove them and sell them too! If there's a bidding frenzy then you just might recoup the cost of the repad plus a few bucks extra! :D

[Rackety Sax]

Pete, since you've read the old posts you know that there is a diversity of opinions on this subject as with most similar issues regarding vintage horns. So I think your hopes of a "once and for all" resolution of this question are ill-founded.

I would put the question to Dave (and I don't mean to sound contentious here) - can you propose any explanation for why the absence of snaps would cause an improvement in the playability of these horns? I'm raising this because you may inadvertently be suggesting that removing the snaps will actually improve the horn, and I personally doubt that. It will offer some options with resonators that you obviously won't have if you keep the snaps - maybe that's the issue here? Just thinking out loud... I'd just hate for Pete to go away with the possibly mistaken impression that he'll have a better-playing horn if he has the snaps removed.

Also Pete, the comments on the potential sale of your snaps should highlight how highly these are valued by some players and collectors. Your horn may not be highly "collectible" but that doesn't mean that the presence of snaps wouldn't be a selling point at the time you decide to part ways with the horn.

In the absence of a compelling reason to remove them, I would personally, out of respect for the vintage character of the horn, opt to keep the snaps, but it's your horn so of course you've got to make the decision for yourself.

[tophatsax]

The one thing that stands true is that the horn will play it's best (and probably very well) when properly set up - which can be said of ANY horn.
Comparing:
A) A properly set-up Pre-selmer Buescher
B) A Pre-Selmer Buescher of the same vintage that needs some adjustments

Will result in the perception that A is a better horn, regardless of whether snaps are present in either horn.

I would never remove the snaps for the convenience of the tech or even to save a few $ on an overhaul. It's clear to me that there is not enough evidence on either side of the discussion to justify their removal. You will lose more value in the horn than savings. Any tech I visit that suggests removing the snaps, or says they prefer not to work on them, will not get my business (and yes, that means searching more for a good "Buescher Friendly" tech).

[Dave Dolson]

Chitown, et al: I am not contending that a re-pad with modern pads and resos (meaning non-snap-ins) will improve a Buescher. But I am contending that it is no big deal either way. I've had two TTs (an alto and a soprano) overhauled with non-snap-ins (looks like Selmer-style pads with the dark brown plastic resos). These horns play great. I don't really know if the snap-in studs were removed before I acquired the horns, or whether they were left in. All I know is that they play well - better than my other two Bueschers with snap-ins.

Frankly, when I had the work performed I wasn't as aware of the underlying issues as I am now. Would I have one of my Bueschers with snap-ins overhauled again and NOT use snap-ins? I don't know at this point, but I recognize the originality issues.

Rheuben Allen and others (I'm thinking maybe Jim Scimonetti was another guy who told me this, but I could be mistaken) with whom I've discussed this contend that modern pads are more easily seated/floated, thus making for an easier, better overhaul. The finished product in their opinion is a better player. My limited experience with this (as a player) corroborates their assertions.

We all know that a saxophone's response, intonation, and tone are products of a combination of factors, one of which may be the pads and resos used. Who can really say if it is the presence or absence of snap-ins? The discussion is much like which color plays better . . . gold-plate or green paint? Who can objectively answer such a question?

I fully realize the collector-factor in retaining a saxophone's original state. I collect firearms, too, and the original-versus-rebluing discussions go on and on in the gun community. So it goes in the saxophone world . . . original lacquer vs. re-lacq, snap-ins vs. modern pads, etc.

For those who face the decision, I'd probably advise them to keep their horn original, but not to worry should they need to go the modern-pad route. Most of us have our horns to play, not to act as investment vehicles. DAVE

[Dave dix]

Very true Dave but i try to keep my horns as close to original as poss not for my own profit as i never sell my horns but hope to pass them on to my kids and they can either sell or keep also if designed with snaps i think buescher know best and i love the idea of if i am stuck i can easily replace a snap at a gig
Dave

[tophatsax]

...I am not contending that a re-pad with modern pads and resos (meaning non-snap-ins) will improve a Buescher. But I am contending that it is no big deal either way. I've had two TTs (an alto and a soprano) overhauled with non-snap-ins (looks like Selmer-style pads with the dark brown plastic resos). These horns play great. I don't really know if the snap-in studs were removed before I acquired the horns, or whether they were left in. All I know is that they play well - better than my other two Bueschers with snap-ins.
Dave,

That's pretty much what I was attempting to say. A Buescher is a good horn no matter what. Whether snaps make a horn better or not is subjective and most likely a very subtle difference that would only be evident to the player, not the listener.

[bruce bailey]

I agree with Dave D on the padding BUT if you have the snaps in there, keep them as if you sell it, people will THINK it is better. Always nice to have things historically correct, that is why I will not get a face lift or hair transplants, etc.

[Dave Dolson]

Bruce: FUNNY! DAVE

[Dave dix]

Dave, funny ! Dave
Dave

[Jimmy Scimonetti]

Rheuben Allen and others (I'm thinking maybe Jim Scimonetti was another guy who told me this, but I could be mistaken) with whom I've discussed this contend that modern pads are more easily seated/floated, thus making for an easier, better overhaul. The finished product in their opinion is a better player. My limited experience with this (as a player) corroborates their assertions.
DAVE

Thanks for the mention Dave.

We offer several different options, but all our work is based on what the customer wants. Personally, I feel the snap-on reso's are an out-of-date design. On the other hand, it's a shame to modify ANY vintage instrument. By replacing the reso's, however, I'm able to properly fit the resonator to the tone hole. Most of the OEM reso's are WAY too small.

Hope to see ya soon!

Jimmy Scimonetti
Toll Free (866)LA-Band1
http://www.scimonetti.com

[bruce bailey]

Dave, My butts getting sore from sitting on the fence.