mpc suggestions for lead playing [Archive]

Tully

10-18-2005, 02:06 AM

For lead alto playing, I've been using these two mouthpieces:

Meyer 6M small chamber: more or less what I want in terms of projection and brightness (perhaps a little brighter would do, though), but the tone isn't so great--it lacks fullness, especially in the bottom octave

Meyer 7M small chamber: comfortably tip opening, nice tone, but doesn't cut well enough (seems unusually dark for a small-chamber Meyer, especially compared to the other one)

Neither one of these are quite what I'm looking for, but each is close in different ways. I'm hoping to find something with at least the brightness and volume of the 6, but fuller, like the 7. I'm thinking a Rousseau JDX, Runyon Custom, or maybe Runyon Jazz would be the way to go...any others I should check out? My budget is pretty tight right now, so something fairly close to these in price would be ideal.

illezt

10-18-2005, 02:17 AM

Try the Vandoren Jumbo Java. Great lead pieces.

saxshooter

10-18-2005, 03:35 AM

The Morgan Excalibur is a great piece. Check on ebay they often turn up below what they go for new (without the wait)...

The alto piece uses a clarinet lig because it is thin walled and smaller than standard hard rubber alto size.

Tully

10-18-2005, 04:02 AM

saxchado

10-18-2005, 04:09 AM

try the Morgan jazz. I just picked up a 6m. I'm totally enamored with it right now. I've never played anything like it. I think I'm done looking now. It's got all the projection I need, but with plenty of core and "oomph" to the sound.

Tully

10-18-2005, 04:12 AM

illezt

10-18-2005, 04:46 AM

I'll keep an eye out for an Excalibur. I think there are a couple on eBay right now, actually...

A local shop has some alto Jumbo Javas which I'll have to try out, but assuming they're similar to the tenor version (one of which I own), I can't imagine them being suitable for any electric guitar-less ensemble. What reeds and lig do you use on your Jumbo, and which facing is it?

I use a Jumbo Java A45 with Java 3 reeds. I've been switching between a leather lig (think rovner) and the Vandoren Optimum lately. It really peels paint when I need it to, but when I back off I can have enough control to get a sweet tone out of it too. Of course since i've been playing a Berg 100/2 on alto lately, anything can be smooth compared to that :)

and if you're looking for lead alto bright, it'll give you a lot

10-18-2005, 05:26 PM

Maybe the V16 small chamber? Comments anyone--I was after this in my LOUD mpc thread which seems to have petered out.

Razzy

10-18-2005, 06:48 PM

Try a 5M or 6M medium chamber. No tone lacking here, especially not in the lower register, and I know at least three local professionals who use a Meyer medium chamber for lead alto playing regularly and have since the 70's.

10-18-2005, 07:16 PM

Ditto on the Jumbo Java for lead alto. When you back off, it plays plenty warm and the low end doesn't get lost as can happen with small chambered pieces. But when you need to wail, it wails. Altissimo is pretty easy with it, too - almost too easy. Mine's an A55 and I like to play it with Fibracell Medium or Hemke 2 1/2s. BARI plastic works ok if you go with a Hard, but that set up can get pretty raucus...

saxshooter

10-18-2005, 07:16 PM

Tully, what reed and lig are you playing with your current setup? Wanna try to find the cheapest solution for you.

I play mostly a Dukoff D8 and was very surprised when the Morgan Excalibur 7E I got was just as bright with a totally different design. I use Vandoren V16 reeds. Bright.

Tully

10-18-2005, 11:02 PM

I'm using La Voz MH and a stock Meyer lig.

GHawk

10-19-2005, 12:05 AM

Beechler S?S. You'll not only be leading the sax section, but the brass as well.

CMelodyMan

10-19-2005, 01:51 AM

Try a Vandoren Jumbo Java, or a Rousseau JDX.(I play on bth, and they're two killer pieces, IMHO):)

Rubel

10-19-2005, 04:52 AM

Tully:

Rather than spending possibly hundreds of dollars getting a new mouthpiece, I think you should do two things. Firstly, I think you should send one of your mouthpieces down to someone like Adam Niewood to be worked on. I think it's like 90-100 bucks, and when it comes back, it will be an awesome piece. I think this is a way better idea than spending tons of time looking for a new piece.

Another solution might just be a different ligature. You'd be suprised the impact a ligature has on your volume, sound, response, etc.

Rubel

bruce bailey

10-19-2005, 06:22 AM

I know it sounds crazy, but I find my Selmer S-80 D to be brighter than either my Gregory or Meyer 6M. Rather cheap and might be worth a try. Have you tried different ligs on your Meyer?

saxshooter

10-19-2005, 01:28 PM

Tully: Are you happy with the Lavoz reeds? I used them a lot 10-15 years ago but found their consistency went out the window recently. I tried Vandoren V16 reeds which have a similar character, and although more expensive, they have been more consistent. When I was playing Meyers (a current 5M and 6M) with Lavoz Medium Hards back then, I found I needed to take in more mouthpiece and push from my throat a bit more for it to "cut". But that's me. I think a metal lig is the way to go, the stock Meyer should be OK (I used a Selmer lig with it).

Gange

10-19-2005, 03:03 PM

I play lead with a Rovner 6* (old metal model) and Vandoren V16s. Full and loud when I like, soft and gentle when I like. Subtoning is easy as well.

!anarkisti!

10-19-2005, 05:51 PM

is hell of a loud mouthpiece.. As GHawk said, you'll be leading entire band. I played one for several years.

10-19-2005, 06:02 PM

I know this isn't the trading board, but I have a Jumbo Java A55, a Beechler S5S, and a Yani 7 metal I'd be willing to part with. email me (from my profile) if you're interested or want prices/details. None are new but all play really well.

Tully

10-19-2005, 11:03 PM

Saxshooter: I've been very happy with La Voz reeds. The inconsistency does bug me, but they're comparatively inexpensive, and after sanding as need, I always get more that are playable than not. The good ones, however, are very good, IMO.

As for ligatures, the stock Meyer does deaden the sound compared to other metal ones I've tried (my favorite of which was a Harrison), but no ligature has made a drastic change, which doesn't surprise me.

saxchado

10-20-2005, 03:16 AM

As hard as it is to define, would you call it bright, in a lead alto sort of way?

Let me answer by saying that I wouldn't hesitate to use this piece to play lead alto. If you want a piece that really screams, I have an Ernie Northway custom that may interest you, but the price tag of 300 bucks may be a bit of a snag for you. The peice is new, hardly played, just more juice than I wanted.

Tully

10-20-2005, 04:36 AM

the price tag of 300 bucks may be a bit of a snag for you.

You can say that again, but thanks for the offer anyhow.

Adam Niewood

10-20-2005, 03:53 PM

Maybe another direction to go with this:

Who are some of your favorite Lead Alto players?

What mouthpieces did they play?

10-20-2005, 04:18 PM

And what mic/preamp were they recorded through...

-TH

10-20-2005, 04:57 PM

Don't rule out the Vandoren V5-serie. I have a A45 which is a good lead piece with loads of projection and the low notes are very full and smooth. One option is also to try some Plasticover-reeds on your current pieces.

But IMO some mouthpieces make it easier to play loud but you can play loud with _any piece_. It just takes time and patience and lots of long tones.. I've given up using larger tip openings because I like the control and feeling of smaller tip openings and I can play my HR Zinner (around .70 tip opening) loud enough to lead a sax section.

Hope you'll find a solution!

-TH

Tully

10-20-2005, 10:54 PM

I've got a Runyon Custom 7 w/ spoiler on the way, as I figured that would be a good starting point, so I guess I'll see how that works out, and take things from there.

super20dan

10-21-2005, 12:54 AM

i have to go with the beechler s too. i had jon van wie do one right before he passed away. it is so powerful that i have to use cane reeds with it as opposed to my usual plasticovers. my second choice is the runyon jazz custom.

10-21-2005, 01:09 AM

How does the Beechler S compare to a Lakey? Is it somewhat easier to control.

BTW I agree with Super20dan's old posting on the Metalites. For me it just didn't work for the alto, though I like them on tenor. It was only good for playing very loud in the 2nd register. I guess this means I need to get the brightness with a smaller chamber rather than a lot of baffle (in addition to support, embouchure, brighter reeds, maybe ligs.)

Speaking of reeds going back to an old Fibracell is helping. Though like others I have not been doing so well with the newer ones. If I liked a Fibracell medium what else should I try? Bari M? The Legeres I gather are about as dark as cane.

Adam Niewood

10-21-2005, 02:29 PM

And what mic/preamp were they recorded through...

That's something I have never considered... hmmm? You most likely are making a joke... But it's something to consider... I usually just let the recording engineer choose what mic they want to use, and don’t have a preference…
A friend was showing me a computer program - "Mic Modeler" - where he can digitally emulate the sound of all the different microphones in recording history... The mic is a big factor; He was mixing an alto players recording and showed me the program... "this is the mic that they recorded Bird with strings... Now this is the Mic they used on Cannonball for Kind of Blue..."

Seriously, I would advise anybody to choose a mouthpiece not solely for it's inherent "loudness", but for the quality of sound. Not all, but some "louder" mouthpieces are only loud, and nothing else. You sacrifice volume for sound quality - then you are overpowering the sax section instead of leading it. I've seen many cats loose the gig because their sound was too loud to the point of causing pain to other people’s ears...

I can think of a long list of NYC session players who have a great Lead Alto sound on --- you guessed it. Meyer 5M, with Lavoz medium hard reeds... No baffles, no paintpealers...

When I was in high school – I was playing a gig, and noticed that the people sitting right in front of me were covering their ears. It made me think, “I’m playing music for an audience for their entertainment, music is an aural art form - and they’re covering their ears… somehow I’ve missed the point…”

YOU and the REED make the sound - the mouthpiece is just a platform for the reed to vibrate against.

SaxyAcoustician

10-21-2005, 04:54 PM

I'd say in general lead playing is 95% player and 5% mouthpiece. If we're considering only the mainstream mouthpieces such as Meyers, Selmers and the like(low to medium baffle), I'll argue that lead playing is 100% player and 0% mouthpiece.

The thing to do is put on recordings of big bands such as Count Basie, Duke Ellington, Buddy Rich, and GRP All-Star and not only listen but play along. There is no substitute. A good lead player leads with his chops, not mouthpiece.

10-21-2005, 04:57 PM

I'm with Adam philosophically, though some band directors tend to expect a lot out of the lead alto. Funny thing, they tend to be brass players! So I may need to compromise between my preferred solo sound and a more cutting sound when playing lead, at least in some ensembles. I have noticed, all else being equal, the loud player tends to get the gig and not the one with the better jazz sound.

I've not gotten to the stage of having people cover their ears due to me, though I've been at other big band performances where I've covered my ears when the trumpets are going full bore. Yeah, they were definitely too loud for the room.

Ol' Mpc Doc

10-21-2005, 05:07 PM

That's something I have never considered... hmmm? You most likely are making a joke... But it's something to consider... I usually just let the recording engineer choose what mic they want to use, and don’t have a preference…
A friend was showing me a computer program - "Mic Modeler" - where he can digitally emulate the sound of all the different microphones in recording history... The mic is a big factor; He was mixing an alto players recording and showed me the program... "this is the mic that they recorded Bird with strings... Now this is the Mic they used on Cannonball for Kind of Blue..."

Seriously, I would advise anybody to choose a mouthpiece not solely for it's inherent "loudness", but for the quality of sound. Not all, but some "louder" mouthpieces are only loud, and nothing else. You sacrifice volume for sound quality - then you are overpowering the sax section instead of leading it. I've seen many cats loose the gig because their sound was too loud to the point of causing pain to other people’s ears...

I can think of a long list of NYC session players who have a great Lead Alto sound on --- you guessed it. Meyer 5M, with Lavoz medium hard reeds... No baffles, no paintpealers...

When I was in high school – I was playing a gig, and noticed that the people sitting right in front of me were covering their ears. It made me think, “I’m playing music for an audience for their entertainment, music is an aural art form - and they’re covering their ears… somehow I’ve missed the point…”

YOU and the REED make the sound - the mouthpiece is just a platform for the reed to vibrate against.

I totally agree with Adam's perceptive observations and comments. Far too many players are overly influenced by what they hear on highly-processed CD's and don't realize the player ought to be more than just a "signal source" for the recording engineer to modify to his own tastes. Having a a great "live sound" and sensitive engineering like Rudy Van Gelder used to provide back in the day are seemingly becoming "lost arts" in themselves.

10-22-2005, 12:13 AM

I've heard the rule that if you can't hear the lead player, you're playing too loud. Really, that is the only way one can "lead" a decrescendo. However this is often not enforced by band directors and other players tend to get upset when you tell them to play softer. Suggestions? Things are agrravated too when the brass assume they don't need to hear the saxes so they just blow as loud as they want.

Re the mic'ing and equalization, I've heard plenty of bad-sounding alto saxes on recordings. Arthur Blythe's second Columbia album, the one with Jitterbug Waltz on it, is an example. He is somewhat edgy, but on that album his sound is very thin. I've heard him live, sometimes off-mic and know his true sound is much fuller. Gary Bartz's recordings are another example.

Tully

10-22-2005, 01:16 AM

Generally speaking, it's not a loud band (the bari and both 2nd players are often too quiet, actually, and the brass usually leans toward the softer side). If I play the brighter Meyer (the 6), I get decent volume and brightness, although it is abnormally thin-sounding for a Meyer. I would be content to play the 6, but it's too thin-sounding. So like I said in my first post, my alternative (at least until the Runyon arrives) is my Meyer 7, which is very nice-sounding, but abnormally dark for a Meyer, so neither piece is quite right. However, I've not yet tried Plasticovers on the 7, which might afford me the extra zip I want from that one. How do Plasticover strengths compare to La Voz and/or Rico Royal?

10-22-2005, 06:53 AM

I'd say to be close to your LaVoz MH, you'll either want a Plasticover 3 or 3.5. The Plasticovers do get significantly softer over time. Even though they have a plastic coating, moisture gets into the reed and stays there for a while. I'd probably wait for the Runyon first.

10-22-2005, 11:29 AM

Adam Niewood

10-22-2005, 03:17 PM

My comment about mic and pre-amp were only half in jest.

Of course, electronics (tube warmth, equalization) do not make up for true musicianship, but with the aid of basic recording equipment, it's not very difficult to make one setup take on many different sounds.

So while it helpful or at least interesting to know who plays on what setup, the recording equipment can have as much affect on the sound (or moreso) as reed and ligature.

That being said - there is really no need to choose a high-baffle "paint-peeler" mouthpiece, or a low-baffle large-chamber one. If there is a mic and a sound system, one should be able to get the sound they're looking for with any mouthpiece.

Tully

10-22-2005, 04:57 PM

We don't really have much of a sound system. Basically just mics for soloists.

super20dan

10-24-2005, 01:04 AM

by all means give the plasticovers a try on the meyer. i use them at 1/2 softer than normal. they last pretty well too. someone else asked about the beechler -yes its pretty similual to a lakey but eaiser to play and control. lakeys only work for me when i am blowing hard like playing rock&roll. not enough flexability for big band work. the custom should be just the ticket for bigband.

Razzy

10-24-2005, 02:13 AM

Just as adam said, can't go wrong with the Meyer 5, it seems to be a big "secret" of the pros, though everybody knows about it... go figure. Take some more mouthpiece, perhaps? Meyer's not really a "dark" piece at all. It's a low baffle, round chamber straight-on-through type of mouthpiece. Whatever's happening in your mouth is what's going to come out, provided it's a decent piece. The "dark" you are hearing could mean a faulty facing or faulty lungs. May as well have adam check it out for you :)

Tully

10-24-2005, 03:33 AM

I think it's a faulty facing on the 7 since the 6, which also has a small chamber, is pretty bright.

Adam Niewood

10-24-2005, 10:22 PM

If you're looking for a good playing "new" mouthpiece - that would suite your needs for lead playing... I would highly suggest trying one of the "Lost Wax" resin pieces currently sold by Roberto's Woodwinds...

My teacher T.K. does all the hand-finishing on them - he is an Alto player, and really plays the Alto very well... His Alto pieces always turn out to be killer!!! The material is not quite as dense as the old Hard Rubber, and has a lot of buzz that many people have called "Bright"...

I've also been really pleased with the overall accuracy of the hard rubber Yanigisawa pieces... I've measured a number of them, as many Alto players I know in NYC are using them... They are pretty easy to find, and for a machine cut mouthpiece... it’s most likely going to have a flat table and even facing curve. The chamber is a little smaller and directs the air efficiently into the horn…

Adam Niewood

10-24-2005, 10:28 PM

http://www.robertoswoodwind.com/store/p.asp?c=96

50s Medium Chamber Alto
http://bobackermansaxophones.com/inventory.html#

Tully

10-24-2005, 11:20 PM

The Ackerman piece seems like just what I'm looking for, but it's well beyond my budget right now. The rubber Yani never even crossed my mind; I has always assumed they were like other stock pieces. There are lots of Yani dealers here, so the pieces should be easy to find.

super20dan

10-24-2005, 11:34 PM

you can forget about the rubber yani -its no where near bright enough for lead work. its great for second

Adam Niewood

10-24-2005, 11:38 PM

I would look for a Yani in a 6 or 7 tip opening... My friend Patrick Cornelius is using one, and he makes it sound great. I've spent a lot of time sitting in a sax section with Patrick, and his sound always carries in a positive way. He played vintage pieces for a while... but said he wanted to play a piece that was easily found in a store - so replacement wasn't an issue...

Again, it's the player not the piece... but check out his sound http://www.patrickcornelius.com/live/

If memory serves me... Pat's 7 measured .83 at the tip...

Tully

10-25-2005, 02:33 AM

I'm a pretty dark player in general, so it's definitely questionable, but it seems worth a try.

BTW, for whoever suggested a Jumbo Java, I tried some (both black and blue in the A35 and A45 facings), and they were simply too loud and bright even for me, but I appreciate the suggestion.

saxshooter

10-25-2005, 02:24 PM

Adam, that Yani hard rubber as played by Patrick Cornelius sounds great. I'm sure its 95% him and 5% the mouthpiece. It's an off the shelf unmodified mp? Impressive, and also encouraging that it is easily found and no replacement issues.

As Charlie Parker famously said, "It ain't in the horn man. It's only me."

Rahspeak

10-25-2005, 02:56 PM

i'm no lead alto player but Adam recently redid a V-16 alto piece for me without an extreme baffle that screams! he knows what he's talking about. if you can't afford one of those other pieces (I have a tenor lost wax that's fantastic! but I digress), send him one of your Meyers and I'll be shocked if you don't have your main, all-around mouthpiece.

Adam Niewood

10-25-2005, 03:27 PM

It's an off the shelf unmodified mp? Impressive, and also encouraging that it is easily found and no replacement issues.

Yes. It has the machined lines across the table and facing. It measures 100% straight and balanced throughout the whole length of the facing. (In the past 6 months I’ve started using an extended feeler gauge set – with 17 measurments) Patrick bought a couple of extras to have as backup... and they also measured up accurately…

I like hand finished pieces for my own purposes… and wouldn’t play a piece that I haven’t worked on.

But for someone who has limited funds... wants to get into the practice room – or on the bandstand, without worrying about the mouthpiece acting as a suitable platform for the reed to vibrate against… I can say pretty confidently that a HR Yani is a safe bet.

In other words, just pick a fu#$ing mouthpiece and play it… Time on this planet is precious. The more time you practice, on the same set-up, the better time you’re going to have playing. Period.

Sebastian

10-25-2005, 06:32 PM

Gary Bartz it playing a Yani HR 7 for alto. And well ... he's Gary Bartz. Must be just fine. Heh heh. Besides why pay for something if what you have works. Unless it's ruined and Adam can tell you he's seen some messed up stuff.
Gotta practice.

Sebastian

Tully

10-26-2005, 12:33 AM

My Runyon arrived today, and it does just what I was hoping for: as bright as my Meyer 6, and nearly as full as the 7. So, I guess this issue is solved. Thanks for all your input.

10-27-2005, 04:32 PM

If you're looking for a good playing "new" mouthpiece - that would suite your needs for lead playing... I would highly suggest trying one of the "Lost Wax" resin pieces currently sold by Roberto's Woodwinds...

My teacher T.K. does all the hand-finishing on them - he is an Alto player, and really plays the Alto very well... His Alto pieces always turn out to be killer!!! The material is not quite as dense as the old Hard Rubber, and has a lot of buzz that many people have called "Bright"...

One of my students just bought one of these mouthpieces - I was shocked at how good he sounded on it. The resin always turned me off, I didn't think it was going to resonate very well, but I have to admit - it's a GREAT mouthpiece, and a great alternative to a vintage Meyer.

Adam Niewood

10-28-2005, 02:09 PM

http://www.yanagisawasax.co.jp/en/accessory/mouth/

super20dan

10-29-2005, 01:51 AM

another satisfied runyon customer

Adam Niewood

10-30-2005, 10:34 PM

Hey guys... Here is an affordable alternative:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Meyer-Bros-6M-new-york-alto-medium-chamber-THE-mpc_W0QQitemZ7361990658QQcategoryZ64455QQssPageNam eZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

.... Not!!!!

Man - my dad purchased all of his for $30... What are people thinking?

If I paid THAT much for something - I'd want to lock it up in a safe...

saxshooter

10-31-2005, 12:28 AM

I'd really like to know if people who pay a thousand dollars and more for these pieces actually PLAY them. Could they pick it out of a side by side blindfold test with a stock piece? The seller of these pieces continues to sell them at these prices because obviously there is a market, however small. But he does continue to sell them at these prices.

Tully

10-31-2005, 12:30 AM