Nice Engraving

[Neil Sharpe]

Some spectacular engraving on this Buescher, which Pete at www.saxpics.com kindly identified as a Buescher "Artist" model.

http://cgi.ebay.com/BUESCHER-GOLD-PLATED-TRUE-TONE-LOW-PITCH-ALTO-SAXOPHONE_W0QQitemZ7350839073QQcategoryZ16232QQrdZ 1QQcmdZViewItem

[Dave dix]

WOW thats a nice horn
Dave

[Rackety Sax]

The finish is a little pitted, but it's still gorgeous. Can you imagine what that thing would have looked like fresh out of the factory in '29?

Jason DuMars has a couple of pics of his artist model C-mel on his site:


http://www.dumarsengraving.com/?jde

(scroll down to links under Sunday 2/20/05). For some reason, the bell pads at least have no resonators on them.

I'm also intrigued by the note from Selmer posted with the eBay listing giving the date of production and where it was shipped to. I wonder if they generally have that much detail on a horn or it's just because it was an example their super premium "Artist Model".

[Chu-Jerry]

It's a really nice looking horn with all the engraving but I have yet to see another horn with engraving as masterfully executed as on my '26 Chu alto artist model, (with all due respect to Mr. Dumars and others). The guy that did the engraving on my Chu could have had a job doing printing plates for the US mint. What it lacks in quantity over some other engraved horns it surpasses in quality.

The engraving strokes are like sculpting designed to catch and reflect the light in clever ways and have to be viewed from many angles to be appreciated.

This pic taken before I finished cleaning it doesn't do it even halfway justice to how it looks in person: http://www.gomodelrc.com/saxophone/portrait/lady01.JPG

Bear in mind that this is only a fraction of the engraving on the horn and is contained within about a 3 inch circle. Even the fabric pattern is engraved, and it all done in mostly straight-line engraving
http://www.gomodelrc.com/saxophone/portrait/portraitpolished01.JPG

[Rackety Sax]

Chu, forgive my ignorance on Conn horns, but is that the original engraving or an after-market job?

[JL]

Chu, forgive my ignorance on Conn horns, but is that the original engraving or an after-market job?

I'll let Chu answer that, although my guess is it's original because Conn is known for having some of the best engravers ever back in the '20s.

[Dave dix]

I also thought the conn portrait was original especially with the period clothing
Dave

[Chu-Jerry]

Sorry, I should have mentioned that it's original. I find it interesting to realize that the style of the young lady depicted, the so-called "20's Flapper" was actually the current style when this horn was made. This could have been a portrait of someone's girlfriend back then. I believe I am the second owner of this horn (unless you count the estate broker through whos hands it briefly passed). There is a metal nameplate on the case which I believe to be that of the original owner. I looked for records of this person on the internet and found only a bequest in his name to a parkinson's foundation.

[Rackety Sax]

You might try the Social Security Death Index, I'm assuming it means he has died if there's been a bequest in his name. Won't tell you a lot other than the date/place of birth and death. It's a free search at

http://ssdi.genealogy.rootsweb.com/

Found that the gentleman mentioned in the Buescher eBay listing died in late 2004. I assume his family is now selling the horn.

[Chu-Jerry]

Is that from the name from the Selmer receipt in the auction photo?

[Rackety Sax]

Right, Francis Luba, born in 1918 and died in 2004. I wonder if he was the original owner. The fact that he wrote to Selmer for info on the horn suggests possibly not.

[JL]

I'll let Chu answer that, although my guess is it's original because Conn is known for having some of the best engravers ever back in the '20s.

Hey, looking at the Buescher horn, it's evident that Buescher had some stellar engravers also. Perhaps the same ones worked for Conn and Buescher.

[bruce bailey]

Elkhart has always had some great engravers. I have a guy who is in his 80s that does my trademarks and logos along with flute lips. I have tried to do some work myself and it looks like a 5 year old's kindergarten drawings.
One of my favorite Conn engravings is the farm scene. I recently got a Martin gold plated alto that has somer really nice work but Conn is still the best. I remember seeing a gian sousaphone in the Conn museum that was gold plated and engraved all over. An art that is rapidly disappearing. If you look at these flute lips that Emerson and Armstrong have, you can see that each one is the same because they use a computer generated laser that cuts them in for about $22 each.

[paulwl]

Right, Francis Luba, born in 1918 and died in 2004. I wonder if he was the original owner. The fact that he wrote to Selmer for info on the horn suggests possibly not.1929 – 1918 = 11. He'd have had to peddle a lot of papers to buy a $350 artist gold sax.

Yes JL, Bueschers, at least the spendy gold finishes, were apparently engraved at Conn back in the day. They did Kings too.

[Dave dix]

Well conn was next door and Gus Buescher did work there.
Dave

[Rackety Sax]

1929 – 1918 = 11. He'd have had to peddle a lot of papers to buy a $350 artist gold sax.
Maybe he was a budding Rudy Wiedoeft and his parents sprang for it.

[Rackety Sax]

So, for those of you NOT considering bidding (I'm not asking anyone to tip their hand here since my auction finger may get itchy), what would you think would be a fair price for this axe?

[Dave Dolson]

As much as I like Bueschers (and this one appears to be okay, finish-wise), my silver-plated TT from the early '20's is in much better condition. My gold-plated and engraved Cigar Cutter (1932) has a similar finish to this Buescher in the auction and both of mine are in wonderful playing condition.

The gold engraved model in the eBay auction is pitted, at least two pearls are missing, and the few pads that were visible give the appearance of needing replacing. So, I'd guess the buyer is looking at a total overhaul.

Forgive me for NOT wanting to spend a bunch of money on this one just because it has nice engraving. I don't know what value to assign to this alto, but I sure wouldn't pay more than $500.00 for it. DAVE

[Rackety Sax]

Yeah, it's definitely got some condition issues and I agree that a total overhaul would be in order. And the pitting isn't going away even with that. On the flip side, that finish is quite rare - not just the ivory rollers and engraving but the burnished (as opposed to satin) gold plating. I've never noticed another one like it on eBay.

[Chu-Jerry]

I'm not planning on bidding. I've got too many projects already and the price has reached the point where it's no longer "a steal" but it still might be a fair deal.
Since it's a TT alto the resale value won't be high enough for me to justify the overhaul job as a for-profit excercise. I usually try to maintain at least a 2:1 ratio between cost and estimated resale value. Sometimes I get a dissapointing surprise when a horn doesn't arrive in as good of condition as I thought it was. There's always a bit of gamble. I think most of what appears to be pitting on this horn is actually artifacts of the photos since it appears on the background equally. Looks like mostly surface deposits that can clean off pretty well.

And it takes just as much time to restore a low-value horn as a high value one. So unfortunately I tend to avoid the TT altos for that reason. I'm sure others do too which unfortunately means that there's a lot of these fine horns that will never get the repairs that they deserve.

However if you just really like the horn, want it for yourself, and are willing to do the overhaul (or have it done) then I wouldn't bid over $600 for it (which it's already surpassed). That leaves $500+ to budget for an overhaul bringing the cost to $1,100 which is probably about the market value of the horn in freshly overhauled condition assuming no bad surprises. I suspect that this one will be of more interest to the collector and you will probably see the price spike beyond what you're willing to pay near the end.

[paulwl]

Some of the finish blemishes could be silver tarnish. If so, it's possible that the gold has worn thru in those spots.

It's a rarity, all right, but the finish is all-important on gold horns and it's hard to tell its condition accurately here. I suspect that those bidding up the price are not planning to overhaul, but merely want a trophy piece. 8-)

[Rackety Sax]

So, for those of you NOT considering bidding (I'm not asking anyone to tip their hand here since my auction finger may get itchy), what would you think would be a fair price for this axe?
Perhaps I should rephrase the question. What do you think it will bring? I guess we'll know in a couple of hours.

[abadcliche]

Ill go out on a limb here and say $930. A lot of these horns that are cool to have but not quite worth the money are being bought by overseas cats, and this person will only ship to the US, so I am thinking it won't break 1000, especially with another hurricane bearing down. What do I get if I am within $5 of the auction ending price? Buy me a beer? :-)

[Rackety Sax]

Ill go out on a limb here and say $930. A lot of these horns that are cool to have but not quite worth the money are being bought by overseas cats, and this person will only ship to the US, so I am thinking it won't break 1000, especially with another hurricane bearing down. What do I get if I am within $5 of the auction ending price? Buy me a beer? :-)
I guess we don't need to worry about determining a prize!

If any of you ever have one of these to sell at the price you said you'd be willing to pay, by all means let me know ;)

[paulwl]

$1,625! 8-)

I can't even flog my '29 gold portrait Conn for that! And it cooks!

[Dave dix]

Which is the rarest. A buescher artist or conn ? I think its the buescher so even though the standard bueschers go for less then the conns the artist models are more scarce so bringing a premium price
Dave

[abadcliche]

...wow!

[Chu-Jerry]

Kessler recently got $2,700 for a gold Conn Artist alto on ebay.

[bruce bailey]

I am still looking for a GP Tru that has decent plating. It IS amazing how gold horns seem to go high then low. In the past year and a half I bought a Conn for under $600 with all new pads but only about 90% finish and a Martin with new pads and about 99% finish for $630. My King and L&H that both need pads cost less than $250 each. There are still some steals on ebay but watch out for me. Due to a computer problem I missed a nice Conn Chu Soprano last month (burnished artist model) that went for under $700, made me mad for 2 days....grrrrr. The greatest thing about the gold plated horns is that if the palm or side keys are missing plating, they can be rubbed down to raw brass and when they tarnish a bit, it matches the gold pretty close.

[Pete]

Which is the rarest. A buescher artist or conn ? I think its the buescher so even though the standard bueschers go for less then the conns the artist models are more scarce so bringing a premium price
Dave
First, as Bill Kasper would point out (haven't heard from him in awhile), the true Artist horns are gold plated. Conn had elaborately engraved silver plated horns, etc. too.

Not to mention the Conn Virtuoso Deluxe, which was the finish choice with the additional pearl inlay.

Buescher and HN White had Artist models, and HN White even had a version of the Virtuoso Deluxe finish. Martin had their Handcraft model, but I haven't seen any of those with extra-elaborate engraving. Same with Holton -- although their horns were never really in the same quality-class as Conn or Buescher. Martins and Holtons were available in gold-plate, though.

Conn Artist and Virtuoso Deluxe finished horns are by far the most common: I have probably around a hundred of these horns pictured on my website (and in storage). I may have a half-dozen Buescher Artist horns and just a couple HN White Artist horns.

(Yes, all these companies did use some variation of "Artist" in their catalog to describe "gold plated with kewl engraving".)

Margaret Downie-Banks, the "Conn historian", has said that the Artist Conns were engraved from templates (possibly 30) and I can confirm that there are some Artist horns that have virtually identical engraving to one another. The Virtuoso Deluxe horns were supposed to feature one-of-a-kind engraving, but I have seen some similarities in other horns, too. I definitely don't have a large enough sample to come to that conclusion for Buescher or HN White.

Remember: Conn was around for a long time before the Buescher company even got off the ground, although both had similar production figures for saxophones in the 1920's.

[Hornlip]

Margaret Downie-Banks, the "Conn historian", has said that the Artist Conns were engraved from templates (possibly 30) and I can confirm that there are some Artist horns that have virtually identical engraving to one another. The Virtuoso Deluxe horns were supposed to feature one-of-a-kind engraving, but I have seen some similarities in other horns, too. I definitely don't have a large enough sample to come to that conclusion for Buescher or HN White.

I've got a mid-20's Conn "American Artist" that has the same engraving as one pictured at your site. On the bell it features an eagle, wings spread, clutching a shield in its talons. The shield features stars and stripes.

[Grumps]

Some of the finish blemishes could be silver tarnish.

Anyone else get a sneaking feeling that this horn has been lacquered over? Yeah, that could be silver showing on the bell, but it's hard to spot in other touch places. Maybe I'm just distrusting of Ebay. Or maybe it's the terrible focus making the engraving look a bit dull in places. I don't know. I'd have to see this sax in person before I'd bid up to where it ended up.

[Hornlip]

Anyone else get a sneaking feeling that this horn has been lacquered over? Yeah, that could be silver showing on the bell, but it's hard to spot in other touch places. Maybe I'm just distrusting of Ebay. Or maybe it's the terrible focus making the engraving look a bit dull in places. I don't know. I'd have to see this sax in person before I'd bid up to where it ended up.

Ebay pics can be way misleading, whether the seller intends it or not. I bought my above mentioned Conn Artist horn off eBay, and the pics made it look like a lacquered brass horn, even though it was burnished gold. Kinda threw people off bidding on it. Didn't hurt that the seller didn't know what he had, and thought the horn was lacquered, too!! But the engraving gave it away.

[Grumps]

It's just the seller mentions the gold plate in a quote from an ad rather than being particular about it on this horn. There's no doubt that the engraving indicates such a model, and the seller does have decent feedback and offers a money back guarantee... I'm just a skeptic. At least when it comes to Ebay. I'd want to see it before I'd make that leap of faith.

[Hornlip]

At least when it comes to Ebay. I'd want to see it before I'd make that leap of faith.

Esp. for that kind of money. Now he's got to pay for overhaul / restoration.

[Rackety Sax]

I've got a gold-plated True Tone. It's not an artist model but it does have striking engraving. Here's mediocre picture if you are interested. Some day I've got to get some better pictures of it and post them. But if you look carefully, especially at the "Buescher" lettering, the engraving is so deep and broad, plus with the shadow effect, it looks almost 3D.

http://glenngood-truetone.buzznet.com

[Rackety Sax]

A follow-up question for any of you collectors of old Buescher ads and catalogs - when did the Buescher Artist Model cease to be offered as an option? Were they available on the New 'Crats and Series I 'Crats?