Alto Low C warble?

[bkiser]

Are any other R&C alto players experiencing a warble on Low C? I had a leak on the bottom end, and assumed that was what was causing the warble, but I just had the leaks fixed and my tech was unable to resolve the issue. A cork dropped in the bell fixes the issue, but its a bit frustrating. Just curious to know if anyone else is having the problem- I am not sure if its a player issue, construction issue (with my horn), or design issue (affecting many R&C altos).

Thanks,
Brian

BTW- I recently switched to a Morgan 7EL mouthpiece...fantastic combination!

[Dave Dolson]

Brian: Not on MY R1 alto. I suspect your tech missed something.

Another poster-friend of mine reported yesterday in a private e-mail that he'd had trouble with his Yana soprano. His tech couldn't fix it. But when he took it to another tech (oh why not . . . he took it to Kessler in Las Vegas for a second look-see), Kessler's tech found the problem and now the horn PLAYS.

Like I replied, some folks just check the pads, but others know to check the mechanisms,too. I'll bet your Rampone has a mechanical problem that when fixed will eliminate the low-C warble OR a difficult-to-detect leak higher up the horn. DAVE

[paplauskas]

I've got a Conn "Chu Berry" alto that does this. I was skeptical when my tech (Joe Verrillo, Southington, CT) advised me to drop the mpc cap in the bell to counter the effect, and shocked when it worked, immediately. According Joe the acoustic properties of some of the classic saxes (pre-1950) were matched to the types of pieces that were common to that era. Those pieces were more closed, and didn't create the same type of sound waves that more modern (especially metal pieces) do. I was using a metal Berg on that horn at the time. Sure enough, when I switched to something like a Brilhart Ebolin or Tonalin, the degree of warbling reduced immediately.

The other thing I noticed is that once I play the horn long enough, and the bow accumulates moisture, the warbling goes away.

[Dave Dolson]

Lenny, et al: The old mouthpiece-cap or neck-plug in the bell is an old trick, but not a solution. I don't buy the vintage-sax-design claim for one minute. I have owned many vintage saxophones and currently count four among my seven altos (and two among my five sopranos). None of them warble and the bell-bows are clear. It is a malfunction-issue, not a design issue. Further, I play modern mouthpieces on all of my saxophones and they play nicely without warbles, gurgles, or poor intonation.

Folks believe what they want to believe - and I don't believe the fables. DAVE

[bkiser]

Well, Ive been in contact with the vendor and he seems pretty certain that the issue is the player, not the horn. If I push the mouthpiece absolutely ALL the way on, the warble goes away, but everything is a minimum of about 30c sharp and the horn feels really stuffy (nothing like neck cork in the chamber, I guess). It was suggested that I just need to work at changing my embochure to play in tune with the mouthpiece in this position- does that sound like a reasonable expectation? Maybe my air stream is not developed well enough for the large bore? I havent had this issue with any other horn I have played.

[bkiser]

Looks like I have a leak at the receiver/tenon. A little oil on the tenon was enough to seal this temporarily and the change was dramatic. Mouthpiece back in a reasonable location, steady intonation, and MUCH more free-blowing. No warbles anywhere....

Unfortunately, it will mean another trip back to the shop. I guess I should have taken it in for a pro setup right off the bat and saved myself some frustration.

[Dave Dolson]

Brian: It appears that your problem was solved by identifying a"mechanical" issue (leaking neck tenon). That tends to corroborate my comment that response issues are likely a mechanical/leak problem.

As far as the player causing poor response, I'll agree that it is possible. But unless a post mentions beginner-problems, I assume that the person asking is beyond player-caused problems. Good luck with the Rampone. DAVE

[Morry]

I have a similar problem with my SX90II soprano, if I don't push the mouthpiece pretty far in. Fortunately, this is where the horn tunes the best anyway, so it's not a real problem.

I don't really understand how this could make a difference, unless this is a miniscule air leak between the mpc and cork.

[josephmd]

FWIW, here's my story. I had a low B warble on my Borgani. A cork in the bell sometimes fixed it. Folks on SOTW suggested a leak but 2 techs couldn't find one. Finally sent the horn to Randy Jones for a setup and to try to fix the warble. He couldn't duplicate the problem at first but ultimately found a mouthpiece that produced the problem (I play an open metal mpc. I like it. I didn't want to change). He fixed the problem by putting a "patch" on the inside of the bell. The problem is fixed, the sax plays great. I can only reconcile this in my mind by the geometry of the horn with that particular mpc. By the way, after Randy finished with my horn it is wonderful to play (and sounds great, but it always sounded good).

[bkiser]

Dave,

Yes- you were right about there being a mechanical issue. Thats certainly what it felt like from the start, so when my tech announced it was free of leaks (twice), I was disturbed. The horn sounded great all along, but the intonation (by tuner) was just not what it should have been. Ive since had the neck fitted, which took almost NO adjustment and its like a different horn. The response is just so much better. I am sure with a truly great setup it would be that much better. This fell into one of those grey areas where nothing was really "wrong" with the horn, but it just didnt seem to be playing to its potential. Now my dilemma is whether or not the sound I am getting is the sound that I want. I had the (mis)fortune of playing a nice Six recently and the more focused sound really did it for me on pop stuff and some ballads. I still love the tone of the Rampone, but it seems to lack flexibility when compared to some other horns I have played recently. But, whether I keep it or trade it for something else, at least I can sleep well at night knowing that its sorted now!

[bkiser]

I just got back my R1 Jazz alto from Tenor Madness and the initial impressions are good!

Randy reseated 90% of the pads (all but the palm keys, I think), straightened the body tube(!), levelled off a bunch of tone holes, lowered and lightened the action, and worked more on the neck fit, which was not at all reliable before. Apparently, the tenon has an unusual taper to it which causes the neck to fit more loosely the further it is inserted. One can actually feel this when putting on the neck.

The horn now feels very Selmer-like- much more efficient to blow, but still some resistance. The keywork is much faster and smoother now, and the Front-F is much more reliable. Where it has really improved is subtlety...it would WAIL from day one...now it whispers equally well. The tone is still has a broad, dark core to the sound. All in all, drastic improvements all the way around....

[-88-]

bkiser: I have been contemplating a Rampone & Cazzani alto to match my R&C tenor....thinking the ergonomics will more invisible than getting a non-R&C alto. So...am interested in your impressions of your Rampone & Cazzani alto as to its
1) voice compared to whatever else your experience may compare it to
2) ergonomics

[bkiser]

-88-

The voice of my gold-plated R1 Jazz is fairly broad and dark- slightly more so than the Ref54s I have played, but with a similar core to the sound. I've gotten about 6 good hours of playing time on it since its return from Tenor Madness, and couldn't be happier with the horn. Initially, the keywork was OK- pinky cluster a bit of a stretch and spaced too far apart. Springs were very heavy and the action felt somewhat slow and spongy. I played a Selmer S80-I for about 15 years and the R&C keywork didnt feel as nice to me. I paid for a complete setup from Randy at Tenor Madness to try to find out what was wrong with the horn- inconsistent intonation and response, tooks lots of air to speak, etc....anyway...I love it now. Randy moved some of the keys just slightly which made a world of difference. He reglued all the pads which took care of the spongy feel and lightened all the springs. I think Selmer keywork is still better, but the R&C is really, really close now. Before, the horn felt stuffy to me...now it is quite freeblowing and dynamic. Just make sure you get one that is setup well...this would have saved me a year of periodic aggravation and frustration and I can't emphasize enough the difference it made on my horn.

I have found that the horn plays very easily on a Hite mpc, which is Meyer-like, and Vandoren Java 2.5-3 or Rigotti 2.5 (brightens up the sound). I was trying larger-chamber pieces on it before, but I think that a smaller chamber might be the ticket.... The horn does not lack for volume and projection and I have found that I can play a smaller, more comfortable tip opening and still fill up the room, which is nice. One of the first reviews on this site of an R1 mentions the large bore and that it takes more air to support- I suspect that the horn might not have been setup too well, because since the setup, the opposite is now true for me.

I will be A/B'ing my horn against some pretty good altos in a few days, to see how it really stacks up. Let me know if you have any specific questions, or if they are really technical, give Randy at TM a call since they are a dealer now.

Brian

[-88-]

Thanks bkiser. I love my R&C tenor too.

[-88-]

bkiser:
Since last posting, I picked up a R&C R1 Alto, but it was delivered with severe low end warble; a middle D that is a half note flat; and the horn is unplayable from high C on up! The guy who sold it to me said it played fine for him. Maybe it's the mouthpiece. Am coming from tenor, so only have one alto mouthpiece, a Selmer C*, at the moment with a Paul Tenney Meyer on the way. Still, any suggestions?

How does your R&C compare now that you've done some A/B'ing?

[bkiser]

Did you get it from a vendor?

Did you get a good deal? If not- send it back!

If so, send it to a very qualified technician. Randy did great work identifying the issues with my horn (bent body tube, misformed neck receiver, numerous other issues).

My horn is night/day different now from when I sent it to Randy. Previously, it was very inconsistent in response and intonation. My theory is that some days, when all the stars aligned and the neck mostly sealed, it played OK. Otherwise, the neck did not seal properly and the result was that the horn was a ton of work to play and intonation was screwy. I spent months thinking that I was the problem as I worked my chops back into shape, but for once, it was the horn rather than me. My horn is very freeblowing and resonant now and I am very happy with it. I had a Christmas gig this past week and it was great.

Feel free to IM me any details....

[-88-]

No, from a private party. I think he's a good guy. I have no explanation for the totally squirrelly behavior of the R1, but that there is mechanical and/or leaks. Guess it's gotta go in the closet till I can afford repairs.

[bkiser]

No...I don't think that someone here sold you a bad horn per se, but if the horn has similar issues to mine, you might very well see wild inconsistencies. I truly suspect that they had a production or design issue with the tenon/receiver at some point and there are quite a few horns floating around which have a marginal seal. I base this just on the fact that there are quite a few R&Cs floating around which have been resold with reasons like "it just wasnt right for me." Thats why I was selling mine! I guess its true of any make/model of horn that there are plenty of horns floating around which are pretty good horns, but with just a little work, they could be great...its just that no one realizes.

The more I play mine now, the more I like it. It feels like mine now. It kills my old alto, which was a pretty good one (1st year S80)...so I finally feel like the money I spent bought me more than just eye candy.

[-88-]

Bkiser:

Totally agree with you. Most people into music are good and I've never seen anyone here, at least, who is out for a fast buck. The guy who sold it to me has his heart in the right place. He's scratching his head too trying to figure out whether it's me (maybe) or the horn.

I suspect your observations about the tenon/receiver may be right on. Different mouthpieces and different players would, of course, highlight or not highlight the tenon/receiver problem in different ways. Me, guess it just shows up more.

Anyway, I was thinking that a Ponzol or Oleg neck might be a solution, but before I do that, the seller has made a number of good suggestions, all of which I will cover over the next few days. Then, if after all that and a new mouthpiece coming next week (I hope), a good tech should go over the horn before I try scrapping up cash for a new neck....but still your observation has merit....and it may come to that. I'm going to get to the light of this problem.

[josephmd]

A small problem in just the right place can make a huge difference. I think that any well made horn can be brought to good playing shape by a skilled technician. I'm always surprised when someone makes the comment about good horns "I think this brand sucks" and the next comment is "these are the best horns out there". Get a good tech, try different mpcs and reeds and I'll bet you get a good outcome.

[-88-]

Joseph, ahh yes. You are soooo right! True in the body of humans too.

MONTY PYTHON script for supporting your experience; this time it's long distance runners (but could as easily be saxophone makers)...."Oh yeah, people from New York suck, they can't run. See that guy fall over there? He's from New York. I ran with this guy from Long Island once, and man he was winded! People from Texas are good runners. Why my Texas friend ran 13 miles this morning, and he feels great! I lived in Austin Texas for 4 months. Yeah, I'm placing my bets on supporting runners from Texas. New Yorkers suck man!"

It really is that dumb. To slightly skew your statement: "A small problem in the wrong place makes a huge difference." Just look at the White House!

Okay, I promise to stop now.

[-88-]

Good news: Just tried a Jody DV 8 and a Meyer-Tenney 6MM, both of which eliminated the low B warble on the Alto.

[josephmd]

Even the ligature makes a difference. I just got a fortissimo lig and the low end pops out easily without any warble.

[-88-]

Thanks Joseph, I just got a fortissimo ligature too and you're right. What a lig!!

I am buying a second one I like it that much. Now that the months have passed. the Jody DV 8 is .... well, some kind of wonder... it breathes like a V8. The Paul Tenney is trying to breath through a soda straw. I am hoping I can find somebody to put some life in it. The Tenney's a dead piece, though it did play without warble; by contrast the Jody DV 8 just sings from Bb to altissimo without a protest and breathes like dual webber carbs. Love Jody's piece. When I talked with Jody on the phone he listened to what I said...one of the marks of a good mouthpiece designer.

[mcrouch]

I received a new R1 Jazz antique gold Bari 2 months ago. It is a terrific horn however I have had intermittent warble on the low end....mostly low B. I have had a pro tech work on it twice, replacing 3 pads, adjustments etc. I play an RPC 130 hard rubber MPC with 2.5 plasticover. From the look of this chain it seems a good many RC altos & tenors have this issue. Anyone have an RC Bari with this issue? Thanks

[-88-]

There's been discussion in various threads about leaks, etc. And perhaps you've got one, but I'd suggest you check all the joints.

I solved the low-end warble problem on my R&C alto by changing mouthpieces. When I put on a Jody DV or a Fred Lamberson 6SB, the problem disappeared. Love that Lamberson piece. Wow!