Super 400 Vs. Big B Tenor

[dexter_fan]

Looking into worldwidesax.com site I am interested into the following tenors:
1. Buescher Super 400: 1799$
2. Buescher Aristocrat Big B (relacquered): 1999$

Knowing the great reputation of Sarge I know both will be in perfect playing conditions, however may anybody of you briefly describe the "charachter" of the two?

I play mainstream jazz and working on a sound a-la-Dexter (but also Scott Hamilton's tone blows me away...). Any suggestion between those two?

Thanks everyone.

[bluenote4098]

First of all, I would NEVER spend 2 Grand on a Buescher Aristocrat, especially if it's a relaq. If you are patient, you can pick one of these up real cheap on eBay--even the Big B's (one just sold a week ago for $1,000). Of course, I know what you're going to say next--that you'd rather not go through eBay and that you trust the online dealers, etc. That's great, and there is a lot of smarts to following this policy. But I want to ask you--where do you think they get the horns that they sell on their sites? Through eBay! (or at least some of them come from there). Sure they may do a repad and work some of their magic on them, but is it really worth spending an extra Grand? I can't blame these online sellers--they're in business to make money. But that's one of the neat things about eBay. Sure there's risk. But before eBay, it wasn't even possible to bid on and buy near that many vintage horns, and you were essentially forced to go through the specialty dealers like the one you mentioned (which BTW happens to be one of the better outlets in terms of quality workmanship, etc.). But that's just MHO. It's kind of like the George Carlin bit on terrorism (he actually did it before 9/11--yes, even he isn't that cold) in which he tells the audience to "take a ((#&&$*) chance!" (In the skit, he tries to persuade us that terrorism should be viewed as a new form of recreation.)

"What are you going to do? Spend the rest of your life going through the drive-through at Wendy's?" He intones. But anyway, that's my view. Ebay is a fabulous way to acquire a vintage horn--it's just a lot more competitive now that everyone in the world is bidding on the same horns. Boy, could you have made a killing about 3 or 4 years ago! I remember seeing 1950's Super 20 tenors with full pearls going for $1,500 in 2002--and with NO international competition. Uh em, sorry about that, my European friends--just reminiscing about the "good old days." :D

But getting back to the horns, I have visited worldwidesax to view them, and the 400 is by far the better deal. It was made before the Selmer take-over and has the famous reverse side bell-keys. It's basically a TH & C except for the flowery engraving/extras. Plus, I don't know what style of music you'll be playing, but the 400 should be a little more versatile, as you can use it in a jazz as well as a rock/r & B setting. Of course, you can use an Aristocrat for any type music as well--the 400 is just a little more versatile. Ordinarily this would be a hard decision for me, as I personally own a Big B tenor and not a 400. But the fact that the Crat has been relacquered makes it an easy one, as relacquered horns can be hard to sell later on--unless you're talking a 10M or Mark VI.

I actually think he's got that 400 priced about right, considering that he bought it for $1,000 and put at least $500 of materials into it. Sorry to blow your cover, Sarge! (he actually outbid me for that very 400 on eBay earlier this summer). (How do I know this? Well, it ended up on his site about a week later!)

So now you see why I'd go with the 400! ;)

[bluenote4098]

BTW I reread your post and realized I was calling it a 400--duh, it's a Super 400, and that's the one I was referring to. I also noticed that you're going to use it to play Dexter Gordon stuff. In that case, the Super 400 is still a better choice as its sound is more spread--like a 10M--as opposed to the Crat, which has a more compact, focused sound. But I have to ask you--and I was just counseling another guy about this very same last week--if you're going for that Dexter sound, why not just spring for a 10M? I'm sure you must know that's the horn he played (for most of his career anyway). BTW the other SOTW guy was trying to decide between a Martin Committee and a 10M and, from a recent message he just sent me--it looks like the 10M won out!

[dexter_fan]

First of all I want to thank you a lot for your very insightful reply.
What you wrote confirms the main idea I got by reading previous posts, the 400 being probably the best choice given the fact that I cannot try them before I buy. I wasn't too sure about the Super 400, there isn't much in this forum, I am glad you referred exactly to that.

Regarding the 10M, yes, I am aware that Dexter Gordon played it in the 50s and 60s, and I actually prefer his tone of that period, compared to the one he got later with a Selmer sax and Otto Link mouthpiece (by the way, I play an Otto Link NY, modern series).
The fact I ruled it out is mainly because I had the chance to play it once (my teacher plays has it, not as his main axe though) and I felt very uncomfortable with the keywork. Let me say here that I am not an experieneced player, hence I haven't tried that many saxophones. I currently play a B&S 2001 and had before a Keilwerth EX. The keywork of the 10m was too akward to me and, besides this, I wasn't able to get a good sound out of it, as also my teacher noticed. He said those Conn are hard to master beasts, suggesting instead Bueschers or Martins, with preference for the formers.
I had the pleasure to hear live here in Montreal during the jazz festival a sort of unknown quintet (I already forgot the name...) whose saxophonist was simply amazing, both in tone and technique. At the end of the concert I asked him what tenor he was playing on and it turned out to be a 400 THC. "Would you recommend it to a semi-beginner?" I asked and he replied "Price aside, surely yes!". When I got home I realized why he said "Price aside", however other Buescher 400 are definitely more in my price range.

[Roger Aldridge]

Hey guys, a Super 400 is NOT the same as a Top Hat & Cane 400. Yes, the two Buescher models have some features in-common. However, generally speaking, the Super 400 (introduced around 1955 I think) is of lesser quality than an early 50's Top Hat & Cane 400. I've played both models. In my opinion, the Super 400 reflects the declining quality that occurred at Buescher in the late 50's.

A TH&C 400 can be a GREAT horn. But, I can't help but think that they have become over-priced in the same way that Mark VIs are. 30's and 40's Aristocrats are powerful horns in their own right and have a more complex tone. If I had my choice of horns I'd go for a pre-1940 Aristocrat or a 1934 New Aristocrat. They typically have a huge fat sound and a bottom range that can take on a bari player.

Personally, I would stay away from BOTH the Super 400 and the relacquered Big B and keep looking for a better quality horn. In particular, one that's not relacquered and has the Buescher snap-in pads and Norton springs. This is important.

Junkdue.com might have a good horn in your price range. Dave at Junkdue is a great person to deal with. Also, sometimes it's better to spend a few more bucks up-front then go cheap and end up with a horn that you regret later on. With that in mind, see what Gayle has at vintagesax.com. Her horns are absolutely top-notch quality, prices are reasonable for the quality that you get, and she can steer you in the right direction.

[Mike Ruhl]

The listing for the Super 400 on www.worldwidesax.com (http://www.worldwidesax.com/) states that it has the snap-in domes and Norton springs.

dexter_fan - I suggest you take what you learn here and call Sarge and discuss these horns with him. He won't steer you wrong.

[Pinnman]

I looked at the relacquered Crat for myself and I must say it looks really good with very clear engraving; no metal buffed away by the look of it. I think $200 of the price stems from Sarge's premium build, so the Super 400 is, in one sense, being valued the same before this is taken into account. In the end, I bought a very nice Crat from Gayle for $1800 and am very pleased with it. I couldn't quite convince myself to pay the extra $200 fror a relacquer, but I was tempted.

Why not Ebay? Well, I did buy one which, after a repad etc., cost about $1400 in US money. However, it had been knocked about more than I cared for and so I sold it and went to a series of reputable dealers so that I could be sure of what I was buying. That is the economics of the situation. Yes, you can do nicely on eBay - my TT sop and alto both came from there at good prices and in excellent condition - but you can also get caught. There is a price for greater certainty and sometimes it is worth it.

In terms of which is better, I sold a S25 400 because the tone was not appropriate for the range of music I play - big band, concert band and sax 4-tet. The Crat is the more versatile to my way of thinking. Last time I went to Gayle's site - www.vintagesax.com - a few days ago, she had a really nice Crat available. It would be worth looking there too.

[dexter_fan]

Thanks to all of you guys for the valuable suggestions and insights.
It's hard for me to rely on Ebay because, given my inexperience with vintage saxes, I really put a great value in the availability of a return policy. I am not yet sure to be entirely satisfied with a vintage sax keywork and feel, at least at my current stage of learning.
By the way, there is a fantastic BigB silver plated entirely rebuilt on Ebay that looks damn gorgeous, tempting to say the least. However it has a reserve price and I am afraid it's sky high... Probably more appropriate for a collectionist than me.

[SactoPete]

I think Barry hit the nail on the head in assessing the pros and cons of eBay. Personally, I've experienced the before and after playability of a horn when it plays "ok" (or "outstanding" in eBay terms) versus what it plays like after someone like Sarge gets his talented hands on it.... a world of difference, and well worth the extra 30% you'll pay to get a horn you KNOW that will play well. From what I hear, with most of the online dealers (VintageSax, CyberSax, WorldWideSax, Junkdude come to mind as names that continuously get great reviews) you'll get a horn that is as good or better than described.

BTW, as far as the ergonomics thing goes, I think you've made a good decision going with Buescher. Conns are great and you can certainly adapt to their keywork pretty easily... but some things can drive you nuts about them (namely, for me, the strap hook placement which puts the horn out of balance).

As far as sound goes, I think you'll get a lot more of a difference in various mouthpieces, reeds, and embouchure changes than you'd notice from a 'crat to a 400, although there's certainly tonal differences between them. Either one would work fine in a variety of environments, and you will learn to adjust to suit. More important, IMHO, is the set-up of the horn (see the first paragraph), your budget, and what your long term plans for the horn are (is resale value important?).

Good luck and let us know how it turns out

[retread]

the strap hook placement which puts the horn out of balance
That's why solder was invented. Granted, there are other uses for solder, but relocating Conn strap hook rings is one of the most beneficial.

[Fred]

Love the comment, Retread!

[bluenote4098]

You can minimize your risk on eBay by only dealing with sellers who do/have the following:

1) 100 or more transactions with at least a 99 percent feedback rating. (How did I come up with 100? I don't know--it just sounds like a reasonable number. I've bought horns from sellers with fewer than 50 feedbacks, but this always makes you a little more nervous);

2) Accept PayPal--plus they must offer PayPal's Buyer Protection program. You'll find whether they offer this up in the right-hand corner with the rest of the seller's information. I believe this protection automatically extends to $1,000. But it can go higher if you have PayPal Buyer Credit. Of course, you should always pay with a credit card so that you can work with your credit card company as a back-up security measure.

From personal experience, I know that PayPal will go to bat for you, even if you're the buyer. Recently, a PayPal dispute was found in my favor and they forcibly extracted (charged back) the disputed funds from the seller's account back into mine. This particular example did not involve a sax, but it shows that the company will work with you if the seller does not send you the item or is uncooperative in other ways. But this is definitely the most important of the 3 things--never buy anything with a check, money order or wire transfer as this is just like sending cash. I recently sold a Buffet SDA tenor to someone on the other side of the country for $1,600, and I couldn't believe it when they opted to pay with a cashiers check! They used certified mail, but still! I couldn't do something like that! It would give me an ulcer just waiting.

3) A stated return policy. Of course this is the weakest of the three things, but even if they don't state one, you can ask them up front if they will allow you to return the horn.

It is probably true that the more times you buy and sell, the greater the chance that you will eventually get burned. That's why it's a good idea to use your best judgement and only bid on those fabulous deals. (There seem to be more of them during certain times of the year.)

Good luck! BTW for those who have commented that the 400 is not as versatile as the Ari, you should look at Steve Goodson's article on the 400:

BUESCHER 400: THE BEST SAXOPHONE EVER?

I would link to it but his site, saxgourmet.com, uses frames.

And here's what he says about the later models:

Later in the production run, Buescher moved the bell keys to the left side, changed the engraving (Buescher 400 surrounded by a floral motif), and nickel plated the keys, whichwas quite popular during the 1950's. These later horns can often be had at somewhat bargain prices, and from the bell up, are exactly the same as earlier examples. The parts are interchangable.

And yours was made even before they moved the bell keys to the left, so it's even better (more like a TH&C).

Have fun!

[dexter_fan]

As far as sound goes, I think you'll get a lot more of a difference in various mouthpieces, reeds, and embouchure changes than you'd notice from a 'crat to a 400, although there's certainly tonal differences between them. Either one would work fine in a variety of environments, and you will learn to adjust to suit.


I listened yesterday to your recordings and you sound really great on your 400 THC! Great tone indeed, while we all know that there are way too many variables involved in tone production, it encourages me to opt for the Super 400, which is the closest thing to the THC at a fraction of the price.

Also in light of my preference for spread sounding saxes, I believe to be already very close to my decision for the Super 400.

[JL]

.... it encourages me to opt for the Super 400, which is the closest thing to the THC at a fraction of the price. .

At the risk of confusing the issue, this isn't necessary so. The Big B and 156 'Crats also come pretty close in sound to the TH&C, according to what I've heard from those who have played both. I have a '49 "156" "Crat that has a huge, beautiful, somewhat spread sound. As some other posters have suggested already, I wouldn't rule out the Aristocrat. The later 400s were not of the same quality, from what I've heard. However, I'll second what pgaylord says. You'll probably do well with any pre-selmer buescher, provided it's in excellent playing condition.

[Dave dix]

The 156 crats are superb and exactly the same as the big B but much cheaper and can be had at a bargain price
Dave

[Roger Aldridge]

JL,

I'm not meaning to beat a dead horse, but I think that it's important to understand that the Super 400 model was a DECLINE in Buescher quality. Granted, it would most likely be better than a post-Selmer horn. But, the Super 400 was of lesser quality than the standard 400 and Aristocrats that were produced at that time. The Super 400 vs the standard 400 are different from the 156 vs the Big B (which were essentially the same horn). I used to have a Super 400 and I can confirm that its quality wasn't as good as a standard 400 or an Aristocrat. Bueschers are GREAT horns. I use Bueschers exclusively. But, one needs to be careful about late 50's Bueschers and have a good understanding of the pros and cons of the different models that were produced at that time. Of the models that Buescher produced in the late 50's I'd have to rank the Super 400 last as a model that I'd buy.

Roger

[bluenote4098]

So finally we have someone who's actually played the model in question. That's pretty good cause to possibly reconsider. A late 40s big bell Big B may be a solution. Though it won't have the power of a TH&C, it may come closer to the classic sweet Buescher sound you're looking for, and still be in your price range. Of course, Gayle at vintagesax.com always has a bunch of these on hand. But if you're the brave sort, you might check out the silver one up on eBay as we speak. Or there's also that beautifully restored late 30's silver Ari that someone previously mentioned--if I was going eBay, that's the one I'd try for. To echo, the post of another member, "she's a thing of beauty, she is."

[JL]

JL,

I'm not meaning to beat a dead horse, but I think that it's important to understand that the Super 400 model was a DECLINE in Buescher quality. Granted, it would most likely be better than a post-Selmer horn. But, the Super 400 was of lesser quality than the standard 400 and Aristocrats that were produced at that time. The Super 400 vs the standard 400 are different from the 156 vs the Big B (which were essentially the same horn). I used to have a Super 400 and I can confirm that its quality wasn't as good as a standard 400 or an Aristocrat. Bueschers are GREAT horns. I use Bueschers exclusively. But, one needs to be careful about late 50's Bueschers and have a good understanding of the pros and cons of the different models that were produced at that time. Of the models that Buescher produced in the late 50's I'd have to rank the Super 400 last as a model that I'd buy.

Roger

Correct Roger. This is my understanding also, based on what I've heard. By the way, I've not heard anyone claim that that TH&C has any more power than an Aristocrat. Perhaps so, but I'd be surprised if that's true. Maybe we're splitting hairs now.

[bluenote4098]

Believe me, they do. I have a Big B and have played a friend's 400, and the 400 has more power. That's why they were introduced after World War II--it was Buescher's answer to the bigger big band sound that was sweeping a victorious nation. In contrast, the Ari has always had a reputation of being a quieter, more classical instrument. I think it has something to do with the larger bell. Think Super 20 vs. Zephyr. Have you played either one (I used to own one of each)? The Super 20 had a bigger bell than the Zeph and consequently had a much louder, more powerful sound (incidentally, was a more powerful sax ever produced?). Hope this helps.

[SactoPete]

Interestingly, the 400 bell (to me, anyways) appears only to be particularly large at the lip. The bulk of the bell is pretty normal-looking... in fact it looks to be a smaller bore than my 30m.

Why don't you just ask Sarge, Gayle, Dave, Bear, etc (the online dealers you are thinking of buying a sax from)? These folks are all players, too... and could probably give you detailed characteristics of not just the models you are looking at, but the actual saxes you are looking at. They play hundreds of vintage saxes each year, and probably have more experience than anyone of us on this board... From my experience, anyways, they are very honest as well, and would not mislead to sell a horn (IMO, YMMV).

Pete

[JL]

Believe me, they do. I have a Big B and have played a friend's 400, and the 400 has more power. That's why they were introduced after World War II--it was Buescher's answer to the bigger big band sound that was sweeping a victorious nation. In contrast, the Ari has always had a reputation of being a quieter, more classical instrument. I think it has something to do with the larger bell. Think Super 20 vs. Zephyr. Have you played either one (I used to own one of each)? The Super 20 had a bigger bell than the Zeph and consequently had a much louder, more powerful sound (incidentally, was a more powerful sax ever produced?). Hope this helps.

Well, if you've made a direct comparison, then I can't argue it. But I don't imagine all Big B's or 400's are exactly the same. My 156 'Crat has the larger bell. But I doubt that has a major effect. Bootman claims the pre-war Aristocrats have the biggest sound of any tenor he's played, including the 400. I've done a direct comparison of my 156 to a King Silversonic. I found them to be similar in terms of power, and a free-blowing character. The Super 20 had a bit more edge and a slightly raunchier sound, but wasn't really any more powerful. The 156 'Crat has more "cut" than my Mark VI althought the VI has more focus and a bit more punch. These are all great horns and a good player could do anything they wanted with them. Also, my guess is that the whole thing about the Aristocrat being a "classical" horn stems from it's great intonation. These Aristocrats can roar as much as any tenor. The player and the mpc is more important than the horn in that respect.

I also agree that it would be helpful to hear from someone who has played a lot of these horns. I'd bet that playing condition and setup are very important factors.

[bluenote4098]

The 400 has been likened to the sax version of the American muscle car. Many of the big sax manufacturers introduced a bigger, badder horn following the war. For King, it was the Super 20. For Buescher, it was the 400.... We were No. 1, and we wanted instruments that matched our power and that proudly proclaimed our strength and boundless energy as a nation in dance halls across the fruited plain.... Bear on Cybersax.com wrote that many baby boomers were doubtless conceived to the sounds produced by the 400 and the other great postwar "muscle" saxes. BTW Gaylord, have you played (or do you own) a 400?

[bluenote4098]

JL, I sold an early Eastlake silver-neck King Super 20 tenor last year (it was my main axe for 3 years), and it was the loudest sax I have ever owned. If pushed, it actually seemed to shake the walls in certain rooms of my house. I currently own a 330,xxx 156 Ari that is probably identical to yours, though mine has about 95 percent of its original honey lacquer. It has great projection and can definitely be played loud, but it does not compare to the Super 20 in this area. In fact, if we polled the entire Forum, I would bet you that the Super 20 would win in the category of loudest sax.

[dexter_fan]

I am glad this thread I started received so many responses. Very, very valuable insights here, but ironically my choice became more complex....
Ok, what I understood is:

1. The only on who has played the Super 400 considers it a product of Buescher decline and rates it among the least (Buescher) desirable
2. No general consensus regarding which one is louder (or bigger sounding as alternatively said)
3. BigB provides probably better build quality
5. 400 is more spread sounding (a plus for my tastes)
4. If Aristocrat is chosen, best years are the 30s and 40s (currently priced around $2500)

Lot of food for thoughts.... :?

Thanks everybody for their contributions.

[Dave dix]

My 1940 aristo has the loudest focussed sound of my bueschers and leaves the 156 a bit behind. I have played a 400 but my 156 and 40's horn are by far better
Dave

[Roger Aldridge]

As a final comment, I don't think that one one should make too much of a thing about the size of the bells between the various Buescher models. I was recently talking with my repair tech about this very subject. There's much more to vintage Bueschers than meets the eye. Anyone who thinks that a 30's Aristocrat is a "quieter, classical horn" has probably never wailed away on one in a big band. These Bueschers have a totally awesome sound. The bottom range of a 30's Aristocrat is so powerful that it can take on a bari player! :twisted: It's true. Really, I don't think that one can go wrong getting either a good Aristocrat (30's or 40's are preferable in my opinion) or an early 50's 400. Both models are EXCELENT horns. Choosing between them simply comes down to personal preference.

Please let us know how you come out Dexter_fan.

Roger

[bluenote4098]

dexter_fan,

I was thinking about it, and I really think you couldn't go wrong with the Super 400. It's what you were leaning toward in the beginning, and I think a lot of us on here, though offering interesting opinions, have just ended up confusing you by trying to get you to buy an Ari (some not so subtley I might add--can you say "arm twisting" ;) ).

But even though you are approaching this problem as a player, it might help you to approach it from a financial/collectible standpoint, and from this angle I think the Super 400 would be the better buy. Why? I have been looking at saxes on eBay for a long time (too long!), and the one that Sarge has is the first Super 400 I had ever seen in 3 years of shopping (that's why I tried to snipe at the last second of the auction--but I got outsniped by the Sarge! :shock: ). Plus it's in practically mint condition, another rarity for one of those horns. So Sarge is shooting you straight when he says that this is a rare horn--both in a general and from the standpoint of condition. On top of this, the TH&C's continue to skyrocket in value as we speak, and they will probably not come down in value any time soon. And the effect of that will be that even the lesser 400's (made by Buescher, not Selmer, mind you) will continue to rise in value because they will be the only ones that many of us can afford.

On the other side, there are literally tons of vintage Ari's available all the time. As the others noted, you can go to vintagesax, junkdude, or even eBay at any moment, and there will be several available in a wide variety of conditions and prices. And because there is a relatively large supply, the prices do not seem to be skyrocketing like the TH&C's. In fact, a guy on another thread said the other day that he just picked up a 1949 Ari tenor, at a music store no less, for 500 bucks! So what I'm saying is that if you decide to pick up an Ari a couple years down the road, they will still be available and affordable. But you might not be able to acquire another BUESCHER-MADE (emphasis added) 400 in that condition, even if you searched for years.

So if you're still undecided, maybe that will be enough to tip the scales on the side of the Super 400, which, deep down, it seems like you really want anyway. I was thinking--if I saw you playing that 400 in a smoky cafe, from a distance you would think it was a TH&C, with those COOL backside bell keys and the classic underslung neck. ;)

Well, I've said all I'm going to say on this subject. BTW Roger, I DO play my 156 Ari tenor in a local big band. :D . That's why I acquired it--to get that sweet classic Ellington kind of sound. Haven't tried a late 30's one yet, but I'd sure like to pick one up. :D

[JMac]

...I cannot try them before I buy. ...Let me say here that I am not an experieneced player, hence I haven't tried that many saxophones. I currently play a B&S 2001 and had before a Keilwerth EX. The keywork of the 10m was too akward to me and, besides this, I wasn't able to get a good sound out of it, as also my teacher noticed. He said those Conn are hard to master beasts, suggesting instead Bueschers or Martins, with preference for the formers.dexter_fan -

Let me start out by saying that I too, am an inexperienced player. My suggestion to you would be to stick with the 2001! Get the book 'Developing a Personal Saxophone Sound' by Dave Liebman (available from Dorn Publications) - and save yourself a couple of thousand bucks (for a couple of years at least).

My reasoning is based on a couple of observations and experiences.

First- you appear to have played 2 saxophones with modern keywork (the Keilwerth and B&S) and the Conn key-work did not compare favorably with them for you. While some feel the Martins and Bueschers have slicker key-work than the Conns (others like the Conns - as in this review (http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk/Buying/Conn10M_tenor.htm) ) the fact is, they still do not have the same kind of key-work that you are used to. Seeing as how you won't get the chance to play any of these before buying - you may shell out a couple of grand for a Buescher (or Martin) only to find out that their key-work is not suited to you either.

Next - just because you liked the sound of the sax player in Montreal (great city - isn't it?) does not mean you will get the same great sound that he had from his T, H & C. As you mentioned - you love the sound of Dexter from his Conn years - but you were unable to get (what you and your teacher felt was) a suitable sound from the same model of horn as Dexter plays. Buying the same sax that yet another player sounds great on does not mean that we will attain a similar sound. I have learned that myself through my horn and mouthpiece searches of the last 18+ months.

I have been fortunate enough to get the chance to play many saxophones at a local get-together of SOTW members. Everything from 5-digit Mark VI's to the great Conn's, Bueschers, SMLs and Yanagisawas. We all take our horns and A/B them. What struck me was how different each individual can sound on the same horn (ie 3 people take turns playing so and so's Mark VI and they all have way different sounds). Next common observation, two horns from the same maker in a close serial number range often sound very different when played by the same person with the same mouthpiece reed combination.

You are getting a lot of great advice and astute observations from the posters in this thread, however, they are far more experienced musicians than are we. They have the skill and technique mastered to the point where they can play these instruments and are able to discern the nuances offered by each. At our level of playing we need to be working on the fundamentals. I have just started with the book I mentioned above. It provides a great deal of insight as to the fundamentals of tone production, and I feel (with a lot of concentrated work) it will help any player to be more flexible (in tone) on a wide variety of set-ups. The B&S is a very flexible horn with excellent key-work. I have no problem getting mine to sound like my WorldWideSax 10M (so much so that it will soon be on the market). Others say they can make it sound just like a Mark VI.

I know from experience that when one is in the grips of GAS the last thing you want to hear is don’t buy. I also hope that you don’t think any of this is harsh, but it’s too easy to get on the GAS ‘chops-in-a-box’ treadmill. Put your money into that book, and many others, some more private lessons, and the bank. You may find your own personal sound by then, or learn how to sound like Dexter on any horn that you have in your hand, or even sound like three of your favorite players at different times in the same solo! Best of luck from a GAS-aholic in temporary remission!

[dexter_fan]

JMac,
interesting post yours and filled with considerations I largely share. We probably belong to similar age brackets (I am 33) and we try to balance desire of getting better with plain realism coming mostly from hands-on experiences. Overall I beleive balancing realism with dreams is part of maturity. Never stop dreaming to improve and get better (if not great) but with both eyes open on our specific situation with its pros and cons always in mind.

I was not fortunate enough to participate to any SOTW get-together, my playing experience is limited as stated before. But listening also to some other players I was advised that I could already experiment, at my current level, with a set of two saxophones, one vintage and one modern. As said by many, they have different qualities to appreciate, and not necessarily you'll want to keep at the end just one, because one might suit to different situations then the other.
Given that I do not qualify for expert, no collectionist, the general consensus seems that getting my second tenor in the vintage market I should not put a fortune into it, bt rather gettin something well performing while not too attractive to the collectionist market, with the inherent advantge of a mode down to earth price tag.
The somehow frustrating exprience with the 10m of my teacher suggested me to go for a purchase with a return policy. As you said, what if I throw 2 grands on a saxophone which i cannot play in tune or find too cumbersome for my playing? It would surely end up either in a closet waiting for better times or on Ebay to quickly recoup the cost (at least in part). The first solution might yields some results anyways, because the resale value of most of the vintage saxophones we all know is on the rise.
This is overall what lies behind my thoughts.
Like you I am aware that sounding like somebody I like goes FAR behind than just matching his/her setup. I am not into the vintage market to sound like the guy I saw here playing a THC (or also SOTW member "pgaylord" which sound awesome again on a THC), just to add some diversity to my setup and take it from there.
And, by the way, yesterday I got the great news that my cousin (SOTW member rispoli) is getting a The Martin tenor and I will surely wait to play it before deciding whether going ahead with my purchase or not.

One more thing, Jmac: thanks for the suggestion of Liebman's book, I called a local music store and they have it available. I'll pick it up this evening!

[JMac]

dexter_fan-

Sounds like you have a good idea of what you are looking for, and an idea on how to get there! Very good news that you will be able to try the Martin first - I have read many good things about them. Wish I were coming to Montreal for the CART races on the 28th so I could catch up with you and your cousin - and hear Kim playing.

Best of luck, and hope the book helps, too.