Lenny Pickett's Reed

[MikeR]

I read on the internet the Lenny Pickett uses a #3 bass clarinet reed when playing his tenor sax. He has a great tone quality on Saturday Night LIVE. What is the advantages and disadvantages of using a bass clarinet reed with the tenor sax. Also I have heard of tenor sax players using bari sax reeds. WHY? Also how do these reeds effect the tone quality of the tenor sax? How will these reeds sound with the Dukoff D9 tenor mouthpiece.

[Agent27]

I've always heard that Lenny uses Vandoren Blue Box #3's with a Berg 130/0 SMS.

[MikeR]

Agent27: That is exactly what I read on the internet only it was the bass clarinet blue box #3 Reeds. I will see if I can find the web site.

[MikeR]

Web site that states Lenny Pickett uses a bass clarinet reed is http://www.davemackey.com/snlband/97lp.html

[colibri]

I have a tenor metal 130/0/M and an alto 105/1/M metal Berg. Both of them have windows and tables that are a bit too small to fit standard saxophone reeds. This is very common with Bergs. The tenor Berg fits bass clarinet reeds perfectly (since they are smaller) and the alto one would fit alto clarinet reeds.

[MikeR]

Colibri, thanks. I think I will try the bass clarinet reed with my Dukoff, as I have a similar condition.

[Mike Ruhl]

I think it has more to do with the shorter vamp cut of the bass clarinet reed matching up with LP's Berg (a 130/0/SMS, with the short facing curve). I have played bass clarinet reeds on tenor, and they didn't work all that well for me, but I was trying them on a Florida Link, which has a somewhat longer facing curve. Tenor sax and bass clarinet reeds are the same width, but bc reeds are a little bit shorter, and thus have a shorter vamp. Hemke tenor sax reeds are cut with a shorter vamp, just in case you want to try them.

Also, it was posted in the old SOTW forum last year that LP was using bc reeds. Someone spoke with him after a performance and got it straight from LP.

The "other" Mike R. :USA:

[MikeR]

Meruhl, I appreciate your informative reply. Thanks a lot.

[Mike Ruhl]

You're very welcome. Have fun experimenting!

[markieg]

I started a thread about reeds on another forum. This is one of the answers I got:

http://www.saxquest.com/forumThreadView.asp?ForumUID=12&ThreadUID=351

↓Re: Switching reeds..... by kennyj on 3/19/2003 11:30:21 PM

So I'm sitting in a waiting area at LaGuardia airport in NYC. (this is about 1988) Plopping down next to me with his cup-o-java is a very familiar face. I suddenly recognize Lenny Pickett of Tower of Power fame, and now of SNL band.

We talk about a lot of non-music stuff, but then face-it, we're sax players, the talk goes to reeds! Lenny changed my thinking that day. I've been going harder and harder, biting my brains out, and still not happy. Lenny tells me that he changed his own life by going soft! He tells me that he's a much happier man since tapering down to 2-1/2 reeds! His lip never hurts, he adjusts his windstream, and BANG! He still sounds fantastic, his range is incredible, his execution sounds effortless, and on a 2-1/2!

Oh well, just another life-lesson, eh?

ii-V-I
kenny j

[MikeR]

Markieg; Speaking of reed strength, Boots Randolph played professionally on a #2 reed. In "Boots Randolph's Rock and Roll Saxophone" book it is stated that Boots had used his Dukoff D8 with a #2 reed for a "lot" of studio work. He later started using the Dukoff D9 with a #3 reed. I have never heard Boots play without a great sound. Thanks for your reply.

[scottyhoop]

I was recently using 3.5 vandorens on a dukoff D8 on alto. In a lesson with Eric Marienthal, he pretty much told me that I was working way too hard, and he would not even be able to get a note out on my set up, so we switched to 2.5. I had to do some work with embouchure and pitch, but I must say that I like the softer reeds.
I heard Lenny was playing on 2.5 vandorens. Softer reeds def seem to have more control to me now that I switched. Kinda cool to hear of somone playing a 2 vandoren on my mouthpiece when I was playing a 3.5. What was I thinking????
Scott

[markieg]

The other thing to remember about that post is that the guy who posted it met Lenny in 1988, so this is 15-year-old info. He may have switched, but when a person finally realizes the ignorance of playing harder reeds in a jazz setting they'll probably stick with softer reeds from that point on. I know when I'm done w/ my stock of LaVoz hard reeds, it's VanDoren Java 4 (barely softer), and then 1/2 step lower until I hit what I like. Just trying to make small changes in the direction I want to go until I hit what I like.

[Mike Ruhl]

The other thing to remember about that post is that the guy who posted it met Lenny in 1988, so this is 15-year-old info.
As I posted earlier, someone posted the same info on the old sotw forum just last year after having spoken with Pickett.

He may have switched, but when a person finally realizes the ignorance of playing harder reeds in a jazz setting they'll probably stick with softer reeds from that point on.
:roll: Ignorant like Stan Getz, John Coltrane, Wayne Shorter...

I know when I'm done w/ my stock of LaVoz hard reeds, it's VanDoren Java 4 (barely softer), and then 1/2 step lower until I hit what I like. Just trying to make small changes in the direction I want to go until I hit what I like.
So let others do the same. I've been playing tenor a long time, and I happen to prefer #4 V16s. But I'd never be so presumptuous as to suggest that anyone who uses anything below a 4 is "ignorant".

[colibri]

Grover Washington and Branford Marsalis are both known for using hard reeds. They claimed that it's not possible to get a "real" sound with a reed softer than #4.

[Mike Ruhl]

I read where Branford said the reason he moved up to #4 Hemkes was to be heard over Tain.

[markieg]

I wasn't saying under 4 is ignorant. I was saying that what I did, and what I hear other people doing, is ignorant. This means starting in band class in elementary school on a Rico 2, and working your way through the LaVoz, possibly VanDoren (so far so good). After getting out of school and wanting to play in a jazz setting, still going with the biting your brains out (I was trying for a harder reed to improve my sound, LV hard to VD classic 4), and thinking that the harder reeds will keep your jazz sound. Therefore I'm stepping back into the Java 4 (softer than a LV hard) and then stepping down 1/2 step each time until satisfied.

[colibri]

Going on hard reeds to improve jazz sound seems to be a junior high thing. There are folks like Grover who wouldn't play anything softer than #5, then there are people like Ralph Morgan who believe you shouldn't work so hard. Players from both ends of the spectrum eventually finds their sound. Since ultimately we're all trying to get a better sound, it doesn't matter which direction you go as long as it doesn't hurt while playing. My $0.02

[Mike Ruhl]

I wasn't saying under 4 is ignorant. I was saying that what I did, and what I hear other people doing, is ignorant. This means starting in band class in elementary school on a Rico 2, and working your way through the LaVoz, possibly VanDoren (so far so good). After getting out of school and wanting to play in a jazz setting, still going with the biting your brains out (I was trying for a harder reed to improve my sound, LV hard to VD classic 4), and thinking that the harder reeds will keep your jazz sound. Therefore I'm stepping back into the Java 4 (softer than a LV hard) and then stepping down 1/2 step each time until satisfied.
OK, thanks for the clarification. fwiw, I played #2.5 or 3 Ricos or LaVoz mediums on tenor for a long time, then started to notice that either the reed strengths or my chops were changing. I gradually moved up through 3.5s to 4s over several years. I'm close to moving up again. Personally, I think reeds strengths are getting weaker.

[mr00420]

Dexter Gordon always played #2's (Ricos in 'Round Midnight.) Lee Konitz couldn't even get a note out of Bird's set-up it was so hard. They both sound great, so I guess the point is: Different strokes for different folks. Moving up is fine, but I think some people do so for reasons other than a desired sound (kind of sax machismo progressed from the jr. high mentality.) If you move up gradually b/c your embouchure just gets too strong, so be it. But it's no more of an achievement to be playing on a #4 or #5 than say, a #2 or #2.5.
I occasionally play a #3 when I find one that sounds good for me, and I often use them when I pratice. But when I'm performing, I like the sound of a #2.5. Again, sometimes my #3s sound great, but I generally like the sound and feel of a slightly softer reed. They take a little more concentration, control wise, but they have so much sound potential.

[blow]

Markieg; Speaking of reed strength, Boots Randolph played professionally on a #2 reed. In "Boots Randolph's Rock and Roll Saxophone" book it is stated that Boots had used his Dukoff D8 with a #2 reed for a "lot" of studio work. He later started using the Dukoff D9 with a #3 reed. I have never heard Boots play without a great sound. Thanks for your reply.

Hate to flame you here, but I have yet to hear anything ever that Boots Randolph ever did that didn't make me want to vomit, other than his untimely death, which has never been reported. If Boots Randolph did something, the exact opposite, whatever it is, is the way to go. Unless that is also the way Kenny G did it. I take it you also think Kenny G and Dave Koz are pretty 'kewl' in their unitards.

[markieg]

I am fairly sure, although I've never heard, that Kenny G and Dave Koz have fairly hard reeds and classical-style mouthpieces. I refaced my Hite premier from a .069 to about a .08-.085 (rough guess) and currently play LaVoz hard or VanDoren 4's, and I can get a little mean of a tone out, but I can easily duplicate both of their sounds and sometimes even clarinet. Before I refaced my mpc it was even easier to do this. After I use my VanDoren up and finish my small supply of LaVoz, I'm going with Javas as I said earlier, and I hope to develop a good jazz sound. When I can save enough money I'll be trying a new mpc, probably metal.

[MikeR]

Blow, apparently we like different styles of music and different kinds of sounds. I enjoy 'Boots" music very much. Judging by his record sales and numerous television appearances millions of others like him also. Boots has recorded over 45 albums of his own, and over 4,000 recordings as a side man. Many Nashville top recording artists must like his music also. Boots happens to be one of the best known saxophonist in the world. Many are jealous of his talent. I think I would give anyone respect that has done so much to promote saxophones in music, whether I happened to like his particular style or not. Maybe some day we could do as much, and earn the right to critize other saxophonist. Until then I don't think our opinions matter to anybody except ourselves. Have a great day.

[Ritchie]

Record sale figures do relate to musical quality just the same way as reed hardness relates to sound quality: there is no relation.

[scottyhoop]

Well here we we go again on the ancient Kenny G discussion....What you think of him is fine, your opinion. However I do take offense to the comment about Dave Koz. I know I'm off topic here, sorry. While his musical style might not be the style you like Blow, there's no reason to insult him. Just different styles. I understand that Kenny may try to claim he's something that he is most decidedly not, but Dave has no problem admitting to what style of music he plays. In addition to being an icredible nice and genuine guy, I think he plays that style quite well. If you disaggree thats great, but the use of insults is both immature and uncalled for IMHO.
Scott

[blow]

but Dave has no problem admitting to what style of music he plays. In addition to being an icredible nice and genuine guy, I think he plays that style quite well. If you disaggree thats great, but the use of insults is both immature and uncalled for IMHO.
Scott

Sorry about the perceived insults - I did say IMO! I'll expand, no offense indended.

Kenny G and Koz got lumped together because I perrceive them as showmen in the Boots tradition, not as serious players, like a Coleman Hawkins or Sonny Rollins. Kenny G can actually play pretty well, you just wouldn't know it from his recent records. I doubt if we'll remember Dave Koz 40 years from now, but for what he plays, I agree, he does it well. Sanborn made up his own style, and whether you like it or not, he will endure, whereas Koz and many others just copied it. I guess Boots made up his own style too, and you are free to transcribe his solos and buy all of his sheet music if that's your thing. You WON'T get me to say he is a good player. even under torture. I'm pretty sure he and Kenny G will laugh at me all the way to the bank, but record sales has nothing whatsoever to do with accomplishment on an instrument. I could find five players in my town, and so could you, that would blow most players you've heard of out of the water.

As for maturity, this thread is all about who plays what reed setup. This to me is as immature as a thread about what brand of hairspray Prince uses, and I responded accordingly.

Long tones, man. There's no substitute.

[scottyhoop]

Ok, Blow. I agree. I guess I took it the wrong way. No harm done!
Scott

[John Laughter]

Mike R, in response to your original question, some tenor players will use a baritone sax reed and some alto players will use tenor reed with great results.

I met a sax player in the late 50s who used a baritone reed on tenor. He said he used it to "fatten up" the tone. He also played a lot of rock/R&B/blues and said that the "oversized" reed gave him more flexibility on note bending, gliss's, slurs, etc. I tried it for several years back in those days then went back to a tenor reed on tenor when I got into the acedemic scene. However, I started using the tenor/bari and alto/tenor combination several years ago and have enjoyed the results.

It can give you more flexibility if you have a wide tip opening and does tend to fatten the tone. Subtones are much fuller as a general rule. The only downside that I have found is getting the right reed with a tip that will last for many gigs and one which pops out the altissimo range with ease. The "oversized" reeds, I have found, help with the low and mid range area. Once the reed gets a little weak the upper range gets thin sooner than a normal size reed.

I guess it is one of those many things that you have to try to find out how it works for you.

BTW, word has it that Plas Johnson used a baritone reed on his tenor m/p in the early days.

[MikeR]

John Laughter, I really appreciate your reply, "very helpful". I am always interested in what you have to say. Your opinions are always respected.

[Razzy]

I know some players who have had great success with this, but for me, being a classical, jazz, and rock (and anything else I can dig into) player, it's more trouble than it's worth. Were I a full-on rock player, I would probably use the tenor reeds on alto.

On a Dukoff D9 for tenor, with the right reed, you could get great results. Personally I have found dukoffs to be a bit TOO bright for me but if you find the right reed (and going bari could actually be quite logical to darken/fatten the sound a bit), you could tame the beast! I'd recommend a RJS 2soft to start out. Make sure to experiment a lot before settling on any one thing.

[Subtone Sam]

I read a interview in which Pickett stated that he uses Vandoren bluebox #2 reeds which he clips to make them fit the tip of his Berg.Also,he said that he does not take the reed off his mouthpiece until it dies.He also puts tape on the tip end of his mpc cap to cover the hole,it helps to keep the reed wet (no ventilation).

mr00420,at least in the 70´s Dexter Gordon used Rico 3s on a metal Link marked 7* which was refaced.First hand information from a player who repaired his horn once.On the film "`Round Midnight" you can actually hear him telling his ladyfriend to get him a new reed "Rico number 3" 8)

[John Laughter]

Thanks Mike. That is what SOTW is all about. Sharing info to help each other.

[Agent27]

You know Charlie Parker was famous for always using Rico 5's but he moved down to 2 1/2 late in his career.

My personal philosophy is to play the hardest reed where I can play in all dynamic levels across the horn. If I can't play a low Bb pianissimo then the reed is too hard. For me this tranlates to a hard 3 or soft 3 1/2. I've tried going softer but just didn't like the results. Plus the reed died faster.