True Tone vs. New Aristocrat

[Rackety Sax]

Could those of you who have significant playing experience on both a later True Tone and a New Aristocrat raise your hands? I'm curious about how you would compare the playing characteristics of these two instruments. I own at least one of each, and lately I've been doing some side-by-side playing and have been intrigued by the comparison. Here are a few things I noticed (speaking as a classically-inclined player).

1) The key touches on the True Tone seem to be much more concave, so that my fingers feel more like they are "in" the keys rather than just on them, a feeling I definitely like.

2) While several of the key positions were improved on the NA, overall I like the feel of the True Tone better due to a more positive action and the issue in 1) above.

3) While the sound on these horns is supposed to be pretty comparable (I think), the True Tone seems to have a stronger core but is perhaps not quite as refined as the NA.

4) The NA has a peculiarly muffled alt low F sharp. I don't notice this on the True Tone.

As you can probably tell, I'm beginning to wonder whether the True Tone ought to become my main axe.

What are your experiences?

Glenn

[awholley]

#4 is characteristic of all Bueschers with the little F# hole. Some are better set up than others, and, since they are hand made, it probably varies on each horn. Maybe you got an exceptional (or exceptionally well-regulated)TT!

Alan

[Dave Dolson]

Glenn: Which model is the NEW Arsitocrat? I love Bueschers but never got a handle on all the model variations.

I have a silver TT alto from the early '20's, a lacquered Big B alto from about 1949, and a lacquered TH&C alto from the early '50's. The best player of the three is the Big B, with the TH&C right behind. The TT is also a good horn, but not in the same league. My preferences are based on tone and response, rather than the feel of the touches. All feel good in my hands - all are gig-ready and would be suitable for a public performance.

The differences you feel could well be individual quirks and not indicative of a whole line of similar models. DAVE

[paulwl]

I have a slight preference for my New Crat alto & tenor over my True-Tones. This is mostly for reasons of refinement in tone, tuning and key action. But their "personalities" really are very close. I'd say the main reasons the New Crat has the reputation it does are a) improved upper octave intonation, and b) the unique circumstances surrounding Rascher and his following.

I think I know what you mean when you say you hear more "core" in the tone of the T-T alto. (I sense it as backpressure, a little more to "lean against" when blowing.)

The fork F# clarity issue usually has to do with key height. There's a spot where it speaks more clearly, but isn't yet opening so far that it pulls sharp. The F#2 is easier to voice clearly than the F#1 for me. One of the minor flaws on a great horn.
How come the Martins have that same little key and tonehole, and yet the note doesn't sound airy?

[awholley]

I also thought of one other thing regarding the tonal core issue you mentioned.

Although I'm not a great believer that there's much difference in the effects of plating versus lacquer, I do have to say that I have two NA altos. One is silver-plated and the other lacquered. There is no question that, independenly, the silver plated neck adds core to the sound of the lacquered horn and that the lacquered neck reduces the core in the sound of the sliver horn. Similarly, the sliver horn has more core in it's sound with the lacquered neck than the lacquered horn does with the lacquered neck. etc...

In other words, the plating neck and body each seem to have more focus than their lacquered counterparts.

Are you comparing apples to apples with finish? Gold plate vs gold plate, I assume?? (you lucky dog!)

[Rackety Sax]

Glenn: Which model is the NEW Arsitocrat? I love Bueschers but never got a handle on all the model variations.
The one right after the True Tone that ran from like 2627xx to 267xxx (roughly speaking). It was "New", but the new one after that (the "Aristocrat") no longer was :) It's famous in certain classical circles because it was Rascher's performance horn on alto. Not to get into THAT discussion again, but some claim it was the last of the "parabolically conically bored" Bueschers.


Are you comparing apples to apples with finish? Gold plate vs gold plate, I assume?? (you lucky dog!)
An undeservingly fortunate canine indeed - they are both gold plated.

[Dave Dolson]

Thanks. DAVE

[Roger Aldridge]

I finally got around to getting my New Aristocrat (267xxx) tenor overhauled. I wasn't happy with the horn's response and sound after the overhaul. Something wasn't right. But, I have an excellent tech and he made some adjustments to the snap-in pads and now the horn plays like there is no tomorrow. It's sound is even MORE AMAZING than before. I'm a big fan of late model True Tones. Superb horns! But, I've never played a True Tone that has a sound like this New Aristocrat tenor. No question about it, Rascher was on to something with 267xxx Bueschers. :cheers:

Roger

[Chu-Jerry]

... Rascher was on to something with 267xxx Bueschers. :cheers:

RogerHmm.. you mean my 266xxx NA tenor is not one of the good ones? Rats! ;)

[awholley]

Oops. Better go check the serial number on mine too!

[Roger Aldridge]

I'm certain that your 266K NA is an absolutely terrible horn. But, to help a fellow SOTWer I'll be happy to take it off your hands for a fair price. Oh yeah, I also have stock in a Florida oil company for sale. ha ha ha

[The A Train]

I'd never heard a Crat before last night..Eddie Shaw was rockin one at the Midnight Blues Club here and I went WHOA!,is that him or the horn? A mighty fine sounding horn it was..although I get the feeling Eddie could rock a kazoo if he wanted. He was also killer on the harmonica.

[JL]

I'd never heard a Crat before last night..Eddie Shaw was rockin one at the Midnight Blues Club here and I went WHOA!,is that him or the horn? A mighty fine sounding horn it was..although I get the feeling Eddie could rock a kazoo if he wanted. He was also killer on the harmonica.

That's cool he's playing a 'Crat. I think it's true he could rock any horn, but the 'Crat is great for playing blues, IMO. I know Eddie has played a Super 20 in the past, and probably some other models as well.

[tophatsax]

I just picked up a great looking 261,xxx TT. Sax Gourmet's site says that should be a NA, but Saxpics has it as a TT and it looks identical to my other two TT's. I was hoping someone could help me with identifying the neck, which is not original. The lacquer color is VERY close and it seems to play better in tune than a TT neck, but with a slightly brighter and maybe a bit thinner sound (not bad at all though).

I'm guessing the neck as a 50's Aristicrat or Big B, but the silver key is throwing me. Any ideas? It also appears to be an original lacquer horn based on the feel of the engraving and the lack of slop around pearls etc. Does that make sense?

[Dave dix]

Looks like a TT to me, the neck looks like a 141 or late 140.
Dave

[Chu-Jerry]

Looks like a TrueTone. The NA will have "The New Buescher Aristocrat" engraved on the bell with an art-deco motif, the left hand pinky keys have a 'clover leaf' layout, the key guards use a hexagonal wire instead of round cross section, and the side high E/F key is curved up instead of straight.

[tophatsax]

Dave & Chu-Jerry,

Thanks, you confirmed what I was thinking. Does it make sense that the Aristocrat neck seems to play better in tune?

[Hurling Frootmig]

If the neck has a nickel octave key it could even be a post Selmer buyout neck. The Bundy necks work on the Aristocrats (Big B's and 140's) and even the TH&C's that I have tried. The design of these later necks is just slightly different but they seem to sound very similiar and they seem to have about the same intonation.

I've never tried a Bundy neck on a True Tone but I bet it would be close.

[tophatsax]

Thanks Hurling. The horn is in such nice shape that I'm guessing the neck was replaced by choice, rather than loss or damage, but who knows.

[Hurling Frootmig]

All that matters is how it plays.

[JL]

All that matters is how it plays.

Somebody ought to put that in a frame in big letters and hang it on the wall.

[Thomas Gavin]

Glenn,
On the subject of New Aristocrats; was that your name I saw on that incredible looking Mark Aronson ebay horn several weeks ago? How's the horn?