growling and flutter tongue: some confusion

[gattocarlo]

hi there!
I would appreciate if someone could clarify the different uses of flutter tongue and growling and give me some explanation on the proper way of producing the effects.
As far as I know:
1. flutter tongue is a fast vibration of the tongue produced by emitting a "whrrrrr" sound. Now, the vibration occurs _above_ the mouthpiece, right? That is to say, the tongue is vibrating against the hard palate, in the middle of the mouth. And not below the reed (I find it almost impossible this way).
If I'm right, could you give me some example of when this effect can be used, or an example of someone using it?

2. growling: this effect can be produced in two way. The first and most used is by humming a different tone when playing (I've read somewhere that if you can hum a major third above the tone you are playing you should be able to hear also the 5th....sounds like a miracle...). The second way to produce it is by gargling while playing...that is to say, to produce a groan with your deep throat. This second method is mostly used in rock and pop music. Is that right?
Is it this the effect that is frequently used on ballads in jazz music? Could someone give me some examples? (I've heard what I think it's growling many times, I think Woods uses it sometimes, but I cannot recall any examples of it)
I'm asking because I just started practicing it, at first with mouthpiece and neck. But I'm not able to produce it well yet, and so I'm still waiting to hear the real sound of the effect.
Thank you.

[Jazzed]

Here's an attempt to explain:

For me: Flutter tongue is produced by putting my tongue into the airstream. I actually let my tongue go on top of the mouthpiece and it moves continuously alternating from on top to the bottom (standard position) of the mouthpiece while blowing. It kind of slaps against the tip opening of the mouthpiece on the transition from top to bottom. It is similiar to "rolling r's" in the Spanish language while you're blowing, which I've come to learn not everyone can physically do.

For me: Growling is produced by making another tone in my throat while blowing into the sax. It is kind of a "hah" or "wah" sound and is similiar to what I would do to fog up a mirror with my warm breath, except add in some vocalization, a bit like gargling. I have also heard it described as doing a "Darth Vader" breathing impression (from "Star Wars")- lol! It took me a long time to learn how to growl, but now I can do it easily.

There's some other people here that can describe these in different ways.

[Bill Mecca]

flutter tongue: trilling your R's like in Espanol. Jr. Walker that first Eb3 in Shotgun

Growl: humming while playing. I've never conciously thought about what tone I was humming, I just hum. :wink: you can also make other adjustments of your oral cavity to affect the resultant tone. Hank Carter (Geo. Thorogood) Clarence Clemmons, or Greg Piccolo on RamBunkShus on his Homage CD are fine examples.

[asian sax]

It is similiar to "rolling r's" in the Spanish language while you're blowing, which I've come to learn not everyone can physically do.



i may be one of those people, but i'm hoping everyone can do it and i'll keep on practicing. whenever i actually get a sound out while trying to "flutter' my tongue and play, it just sounds like a growl. i need to meet w/someone who knows how to do it, lol

[John Laughter]

gatto, in addition to the excellent explanations above, here are some responses that were previously posted on another thread that might be of interest;

Re the growl, I have used the “hum” technique to produce the growl since 1956. Both the growl and the "flutter tongue", were very popular techniques used by sax players in Rock & Roll and R&B music which was hitting the airwaves in the late 50s. For those of us who had joined that local school band, we were asking the band director what this new sound was that we were hearing on the Top 40 hits. Obviously these effects were around long before the 50s and still continue today in many forms of music.

There are apparently one or two other ways to achieve the same results from what I have read on the NET over the years but I have only used the method of humming along with the note that I want to change to a growl tone.

I also suggest that the best way to learn to produce the growl on the sax is to start with just the mouthpiece attached to the neck. Using the entire horn can be a problem at first due to the coordination involved. Play a long note on the neck then starting “humming” a note that is higher than the tone that is coming out of the neck. I like to think in terms of singing falsetto because that is the octave area that you will be in to get above the note that is produced by the neckpiece. More on that later.

Be sure to sing “ABOVE” the N/P note. If you hum the same note that is coming out of the N/P the effect will be cancelled. If you hum below, it is garbled.

You will soon begin to realize that it is taking a lot of air to play and hum at the same time on the neckpiece. This is natural because you will probably open your throat and let too much air out because of your efforts to sing and exhale at the same time. Easier said than done at first! In time you will be able to control the amount of hum and the coordination will become natural. Now put the horn together and see what happens.

Many of us use the growl in the middle and high range, especially from high A above the staff to high F#. I have found that the most effective area for the growl is starting on 2nd space A and up. Once you go below 2nd line G it becomes somewhat garbled.

Now about the “hum.” I have read some articles that suggest that you hum a 3rd above the note being produced on the horn so there is obviously more to that than I have gotten into because I just hum above the notes being played. I can’t hear the note that I am humming due to the stage volume and I have never thought about the “3rd above” concept so I can’t comment on it. I simply hum in a falsetto range and it works for me. Hopefully you will get more advice from other players. There is always more than one way to approach certain effects.

Re the flutter technique, I do not know when the flutter started. I have heard it done as early as the big band era. I feel certain that it started long before. I first became aware of it when I heard “Honky Tonk” part 2 by Bill Doggett . Clifford Scott used it in his 4th solo. And again on “Tequila” when Chuck Rio used it on the repeat of the main melody. It has been used on more recent pop hits such as “With Every Beat Of M y Heart “ by Taylor Dayne as played by Joel C. Peskin.

I would venture to say that it was probably developed by blues artist when they wanted to play a real “down and dirty” sounding solo. It really lends itself to that type of music. A combination of the growl, flutter tone and note bending will put you well on your way to playing some very suggestive sounds.

This technique gives the same effect as singing it front of a desk fan. It causes the tone to flutter by causing a separation in the airwave/tone.

I always suggest that you take the neck off the horn and learn by playing only the neck/mouthpiece then after you get the feel of it, attach it to the horn.

Before you play with the neck, see if you can make the sound that is similar to a small motorboat engine by blowing lightly and at the same time raising the tip of the tongue gently against the front portion of the roof of your mouth just behind the front teeth. Do not press the tongue into the roof. Just raise it enough to make a rapid flutter between the tip and the skin of the roof. The effect is also similar to the sound of a “cat purr.” However, there is no need to make a sound or hum anything while fluttering the tongue. If you can achieve this sound it will transfer to the m/p.

With the m/p in the mouth do the same thing as above but DO NOT TOUCH THE REED while the tongue flutters back and forth toward the roof of the mouth. The tip portion of the tongue ends up fluttering in the roof area in front of the tip of the m/p but if you touch the m/p it will stop the effect.

I hope this is enough to get you started. If you need more info, please send an email to JSAXL@aol.com