Moving up to an open soprano mouthpiece

[Mike Ruhl]

So who is playing really open mouthpieces on soprano - let's say .080" and above? What did moving up buy you? What adjustments did you have to make?

Mike R. :USA:

[djonk]

For SOPRANO, .080 is way to much for me. I had a .072 Bari brand that was real cool, but soon tired of the amount of air it took and refaced it to a .068
I find that .066 more or less (depending on the model) is where I belong!

[djonk]

Oh yea, I just remembered that I bought a Rico Metalite, with a .075 tip opening, which was also a mistake.

[Dr G]

So who is playing really open mouthpieces on soprano - let's say .080" and above? What did moving up buy you? What adjustments did you have to make?

It buys you "flexibility of pitch" - and that's what you'll have to learn to control.

I agree that .068" is a happy, predictable, moderately open m'piece for sop. That's what I use on my Serie III.

I recall that Dave Liebman uses something like a .110" on his sop. Of course, he's the leader of his group so any pitch issues are somebody else's fault. :wink:

[butchc]

I've been playing an .080 RPC on soprano for a few years now, and I just love it. Everyone's different, but for me this is by far the best soprano mouthpiece I've ever played. I don't have any unusual intonation problems with this piece.

[Thomas]

I too use an RPC .080 and a Freddie Gregory .092-as said above it gives tonal flexibility-frees up the horn-blows easier. I think too many of you guys spend too much time being concerned with intonation. Pitch is relative and I say leave your relatives out of it. If you -Play- your horns any adjustments needed becomes automatic-Listen- to what is coming out of your horn and react as necessary-throw those stupid tuners away,they have little if any use in the realm of real/working music and not only does the majority of your audience not hear "off"-they generally don't care. Bigger Is better!

[Mike Ruhl]

Interesting. Keep it coming...

[colibri]

I play on an RIA 8 with an opening of .90 (yes, I'm talking soprano). On alto it's .105 with the Jumbo A95. On tenor I have a 130/0 metal Berg. Big tips and hard reeds are more user friendly to me. 8)

[Mike Ruhl]

Big tips and hard reeds are more user friendly to me. 8)
Could you expand on that thought, please, as it relates to soprano? What do you gain by playing open mpc/hard reeds on soprano?

[colibri]

Since I play on big openings for alto and tenor, if I use anything smaller than .90 on soprano, the reed will close up on the facing. Then the sound will be muffled, or no sound will come out at all. In terms of tone, you get a much fatter sound if you allow yourself to push air into the soprano. You also will get more tone color and flexibility with larger tips.

[Dr G]

I think too many of you guys spend too much time being concerned with intonation... If you -Play- your horns any adjustments needed becomes automatic-Listen- to what is coming out of your horn and react as necessary-throw those stupid tuners away,they have little if any use in the realm of real/working music and not only does the majority of your audience not hear "off"-they generally don't care.

Well, which is it - do you practice, listen, and care about your intonation or assume that it doesn't matter?

If I'm in the audience, you may rest assured that not only will I notice but I will care. :wink:

I'd like to think that you indeed do care and are a conscientious musician. If someone is asking about tip openings on sop, chances are they may not yet have the ears or the embouchure to handle a large tip opening. Do you want to be responsible for what comes out of their horn? :roll:

[Mike Ruhl]

Easy there, I don't want this thread to digress...

[MitchP]

I play on a Lamberson 80 opening and a Berg 85(measures 82). Anything smaller for me feels restrictive and closes up. Tuning on soprano is something you need to deal with regardless of setup. For me a bigger tip opening gives me more flexibility and I can do much more with shaping notes. I studied with Lieb so I guess I learned from him how to approach the horn with a bigger feel and sound concept. His Sugal was about an 82 opening, I'm not sure what his current vintage Selmer Soloist is. He sounds the same on his current setup but finds it more comfortable to play. The comfort factor is paramount to anything else in finding your sound. I would say try some bigger openings and a variety of pieces to find what works for you. The Lamberson I currently play was a special order for the opening since he makes them smaller. It works well in the short time I've had it but I will always keep my ears and eyes open for other possibilities. It's somewhere between a soloist and a Link, the best of both worlds maybe.

[djonk]

CHOISES (soprano) OF THE PROS:
Gerald Albright  Dukoff D7------------------------------------------------.070
Justo Almario Selmer D, Rico or Hemke Reeds-----------------------.051
Bob Berg  Metal Selmer G-------------------------------------------.061
Jay Beckenstein Selmer C*, Van Doren #3 reeds-----------------------.047
Jane Ira Bloom Metal Selmer D---------------------------------- -------.051
DonBraden Meyer #7, Vandoren #3 Reeds,-----------------------.057
Nick Brignola Runyon 7------------------------------------------------.059
Mark Colby Selmer H------------------------------------------------.063
George Coleman Vandoren A25------------------------------------------.060
John Coltrane  Metal Selmer E-----------------------------------------.053
Paquito D'Rivera Otto Link 6----------------------------------------------.060
Lawrence Feldman Selmer D-----------------------------------------------.051
Brandon Fields  Selmer E-----------------------------------------------.053
Dexter Gordon Metal Selmer C*--------------------------------------.047
Kenny Gorlick Dukoff metal D8, Hemke #2  1/2 Reeds------------075
Craig Handy Vandoren S25----------------------------------------.060
John Harle Selmer Soloist B, Vandoren #3 Reeds-------------.042
Jimmy Heath Selmer D, Marca Reeds-----------------------------.051
John Klemmer Yanigasawa #7---------------------------------------.065
Dave Koz Couf 8-------------------------------------------------.066
Steve Lacey Otto Link12--------------------------------(? .085 .090 )
Oliver Lake RIA 7---------------------------------------( .090 )
Don Lamphere Couf 7*------------------------------------------------.059
Joe Lulloff Selmer S-80 C*--------------------------------------.047
Otto Link Selmer S-80D-----------------------------------------.051
Eric Marienthal  Metal Beechler 8,  Vandoren 3 Reeds---------------.070
Dick Oatts Wolf Tane 7-------------------------------------------.055
Lenny Pickett Selmer C*--------------------------------------------.047
Joshua Redman Selmer Soloist Hard Rubber G, Vandoren 2 Reeds-.061
James Rotter Selmer S-80 E,  Vandoren 4 Reeds-----------------.053
Marc Russo Yanigisawa 9----------------------------------------- .074
Wayne Shorter Hard Rubber Otto Link 10--------------------------- .077
James Umble Selmer C* , Morgan 3C,  Vandoren 3 1/2----------.047
Chris Vadala Selmer C*---------------------------------------------.047
Ernie Watts Runyon 9, --------------------------------------------.074
Kirk Whalum Dukoff8*----------------------------------------------.075

[Mike Ruhl]

Um...thanks, David, but I coulda looked that stuff up myself. :roll:

I really just want to hear from those who are playing open soprano mpcs.

[djonk]

These 'Cats' would Know:
Steve Lacey--------------- Otto Link12--------------------------------- .090
Oliver Lake----------------- RIA 7--------------------------------------- .090

[FOREVERBFC]

I am pretty much a begginer to the saprano sax, although i've been playing the alto for quite a few years now. I've never really payed attention to the size of the spacing until I first got may sop sax. When I play my sop sax before all the air is released out of my mouth, I have to stop and finish letting the air out of my mouth. I guess I need a bigger spacing but I'm not for shure which one I should go with. Like I said I play the alto so I figure I need about the same spacing as that. The mouthpiece on the sop sax seems to hurt my lips because it is quite smaller than the alto sax. Is there any mouthpieces offered that would increase the size of the mouthpiece for the sop sax?

[MitchP]

Bob Berg at the time of his untimely death was playing a Lamberson.

[Subtone Sam]

I use Dukoff M8 (.075) with LaVoz medium-hard reeds.Its not easy set-up but the sound is much more open and stronger than HR .065 pieces I used to play.

[Mike Ruhl]

I use Dukoff M8 (.075) with LaVoz medium-hard reeds.Its not easy set-up but the sound is much more open and stronger than HR .065 pieces I used to play.
Weren't you using a Metalite for a while?

[Subtone Sam]

meruhl,indeed I did and still do.Metalites are good mpcs for sop. and bari.

[dolphyo]

hey guys,i also use open mouthpieces and in the past hard reeds. my main mpc use to be a berg-larsen 105/0, some custom runyons(sic) my main mpc now and forever is my 9* opened to a 12*. its true you gain flexbility,tons of sound,colors,better pitch,etc....but you must play it with conviction and not fighting it {doublers} stay with long tones,overtone series, and simpley hearing it in your head. for years i use to use hard reeds,but now that i'm older i switched first to a looser emboucher and medium reeds. lol, to each his own.........really dolphyo

[MojoBari]

I did some stats on the list above. It is not normally distributed. Also, I heard Lacy was playing up to a .100".

The average is .060" with 50% of the players being between .051 and .069".

On tenor and bari, I find the wider tips more of a lung capacity problem. On sop and alto, it is more of a intonation control problem. On sop I just vent excess air out the corners of my mouth like oboe players do. Eventually I adjust to not take in a bari sax size gulp of air. I play around a .064" most of the time.

[Mike Ruhl]

Thanks to all for the feedback. It's interesting to see the difference of opinion re: intonation with open soprano mpcs.

I've decided to pick up another Bari Esprit and have one of the resident mpc techs open it up to .080".

[Stencilman]

I refaced my Dukoff D8 to 0.80 mainly to get around a manufacturing problem (was my 3rd Dukoff that was obviously defective). With Fibracell Medium reeds, I have had a little trouble at low volumes, both in getting it to speak freeely and with intonation. Things are much better now that I evened out the facing curve. Tuning is flexible but controllable. I leave the tuner on when I practice and glance at it occasionally to see where I am.

I can't imagine going with a more closed Dukoff than the D8. For me, a D6 is too limiting and fuzzy sounding.

[Bootman]

Try a Metal Link too, yoiu may be very surprised.

[SopranoSue]

"a bari sax size gulp of air"

Too true. On sop, I find that if I take in too much air, I either have to play it for a long time or let it out and get some more. On alto, I took in more air. On sop, I find that I don't have to *push* it through so much, so I can take less in.

[Henk]

I have been playing pretty open soprano mpcs for quite some years now. I once went to take a lesson with Steve Lacy, and took a look at his mpc. It's a Link 12, but a strange one with a rectangular chamber (like a S80). although I didn't measure it, it looked like it had a pretty short facing, and a tipopening of about .90. I compared it to the mpc I was playing at the time that I modified myself to a .88 tip with a long facing. I also happened to take a good look at Dave Liebman's current mpc when his instrument was in a shop of a friend of mine while he was on tour here in the Netherlands recently. It is a Selmer S80 with a slightly opened chamber and a .90 tipopening. It had a crooked facing (perhaps on purpose), and it looked like it had been dropped on the floor, as the tiprail had some damage. I guess that goes to show that "the perfect mouthpiece" isn't always a prerequisite for sounding great. His horn was out of adjustment also.
I play a metal Selmer refaced to .90 with a short facing, slightly widened tip and a small rollover baffle that plays and sounds just perfect for me on my Selmer soprano (SA80, series 1). It doesn't sound as great on other horns, and I never thought I would like a metal mpc on soprano. I guess the lesson in that is that experimenting yourself is more important than copying other people. For years I tried to sound like Steve Lacy, and made a couple of mpcs that are pretty similar in design to his. But I didn't really get there. What helped the most though were his basic exercises: long tones, overtones, meditating on single intervalls, altissimo, and playing slowly.
While I like the register of the soprano, getting a good sound to me is the biggest problem to be solved. I feel an open mpc helps, especially in combination with soft reeds, as these force one to play accurately, with proper air support. With a soft reed intonation isn't that hard; I have more intonation problems playing more closed mpcs with harder reeds. btw, Steve Lacy plays Marca 1,5 reeds, and Dave Liebman had a box of Alexander Superial DC 2,5 in his case.

[Stencilman]

Bootman wrote:Try a Metal Link too, you may be very surprised.Tried Links and Bergs and they just don't do it for me. I played Dukoffs on SATB for some 15 years and have their sound in my head. But it has been a real pain to find good Dukoffs. The local music store had 3 alto mouthpieces in stock and two of them had deformed tips. The third looked like it had a chunk of metal scooped out of the middle of the baffle. I bought the third one and filled in the hole with JB Weld epoxy. The rails had to be evened out to keep it from chirping. In the end, the tip opening ended up at 0.92 and it is THE alto mouthpiece for me (there are probably 25 alto mouthpieces in my drawer that were collected over 25 years of playing).

To get back on subject, the soprano gets better everyday as I re-learn to control it (I've been away from soprano for a few years). I guess that for some folks there is a bit of a fight to get used to an open soprano mouthpiece, it has been a 4 month battle for me. But I now get the sound I expect and it feels very natural now.

[MojoBari]

If you concentrate on just soprano, I think big tip openings are not difficult to get used to and are worth exploring. For a doubler, you get more problems to deal with than benefits.

[BAS]

I've got some soprano pieces you folks might be interested in. For sale or trade;
I've got;
NEW Beechler HR 9
Lebayle HR 8 hardly used

I want;
BARI HR 74 or
Berg HR 80+/2or3
will trade piece for piece or sell either one for $50.

trioofmany@hotmail.com

[Mike Ruhl]

Henk - that's interesting about Lacy's Link having a rectangular throat. He must have had that done in France...

Mojo, how about expanding on your thought re: doublers having more problems with open soprano mpcs? The only reason I ask is that it seems that the main reason some tenor/soprano doublers go to more open sop. mpcs to make it more comfortable to play - to make it play more like a tenor. I think even Liebman has said that.

[MojoBari]

Some tenor/sop doublers do go wider on sop. Maybe they just concentrate on tenor and sop. The cats that play the works, like Chris Vadala, Dick Oates, the late Nick Brignola, are all pretty conservative on sop. It could be something with clarinet playing too. They may lean to more of a clarinet embouchure tightness than a tenor sax looseness.

I think Liebman has also said that as players get older (mature, or whatever) they tune the sop sharper and play looser. I can get away with this on my straight Conn if I practice on it. I have a HR Barone 65 with a long facing that I play loose on (Like a Bb concert pitch with the mouthpiece alone.) It makes for a fatter sop sound, but is tougher to keep in tune. The key is to practice enough to learn where to lip the pitch. Muscle memory works well if you practice and you only play a few horns.

For extensive doubling, it is a better strategy to use a set-up/embouchure to minimize pitch problems. But I have found that I enjoy my sop sax more if I make this compromise. I like the sound and the embouchure comfort.

I have a Musica curved sop I use a Selmer D S-80 on that requires a "proper" tight embouchure. Like a Db on the MP alone.

To me, messing with embouchure support has got me to where I want to be. Going more open has not. I have a couple of open Metalites I pull out from time to time. I like the sound, but they are too much work to control the pitch. Perhaps I'll find something in between one day like a Berg or RIA with a custom facing on it. But I'm not motivated enough to change at this point.

[Mike Ruhl]

I think you're right - it depends on where you're coming from when you come to soprano.

[Henk]

Mike, Steve Lacy said he had Otto Link make him three identical mouthpieces after his original horn and mouthpiece were stolen. He got them like that, I am pretty sure they are not modified. I have a HR Link with a rectangular chamber myself, that is different again from Steve Lacy's. I guess they have been experimenting some before settling on the current design.
I think the key to a good sound is what Mojobari is refering to: a loose embouchure. In my experience a soft reed helps a lot here. After you have learned to play a soft reed, I feel moving up in tipopening does more for getting a big, fat sound than moving up in reed strength. A somewhat shorter facing length also helps, especially in getting the high notes and altissimo. The trade off of a short facing normally is a more difficult low register, but on a straight soprano with a soft reed the low register is no problem anyway.
Of course this requires some dedication, especially in developing muscle memory for a relaxed embouchure. But I guess you need some dedication for playing the soprano at all. It is a less forgiving horn than it's bigger brothers. I'd suggest to give it a try. Try a somewhat larger tipopening in the same general mouthpiece design you use now, with a softer reed. Play that for a few weeks and then compare which sound you like best, which setup is more comfortable to play, how easy/difficult the high register is, intonation, flexibility. I reface and modify my own mouthpieces, so I have been able to experiment a lot, in direct comparison (before and after opening the tip, shortening/lengthening the facing a.s.o.), and by trial and error I have found what works for me. Now I am trying to focus on music rather than equipment again. So far I have been succesful for almost two years! I guess there is hope.

[Mike Ruhl]

Thanks for all the help! I really appreciate it.

[MM]

I recently moved to more open piece myself: a Super Session H (.063.) Yes, by some folks' standard that's normal, but not too long ago a D,E or F (.051-.057) pretty much covered it. I like the fuller sound and the more relaxed feel. What I don't like it the fact it's difficult to articulate cleanly at the low end at mp or softer. Also, it's difficult to bridge the gap between a pp subtone and a mf full tone, mainly on the notes low D, Eb and E. In between, around p-mp dynamic the horn wants to warble. I'm going to try to work thru this and see how it goes. Suggestions are welcome.

[Mike Ruhl]

Warbles usually indicate leaks in the horn. Your problems with dynamics may be leak-related, too. I wouldn't consider .063" to be an open mpc, so you may want to have your horn checked out.

[Henk]

These symptoms could also be caused by a uneven facing, or a 'bump' in the facing curve near the table. This would make it hard to play softly, which bould be compensated by a 'subtone embouchure', but then it is hard to make a fluent transition from pp to ff, and some notes may give more problems than others. Are you using a softer reed than on your more closed mouthpieces? That should help to articulate more cleanly.

[MM]

Yes, I did go to a softer reed when moving to the Super Session H.

I might add I had a similar gurgle problem when I started on soprano many years ago, the the problem was fixed when I went to reeds that were hard enough to work on the stock Yamaha 4C mouthpiece. I remember being suprised that hard reeds fixed a low register problem....

[Mike Ruhl]

I just noticed that www.wwbw.com has a closeout on LA Sax metal sax mpcs ( http://www.wwbw.com/Item/?itemno=94742 ), so I ordered a #10 soprano mpc. Seems like I tried one of these in the #10 facing 2 or 3 years ago (or may have been a Yanagisawa, I just can't recall), and didn't care much for it, but my soprano chops are a lot better now than they were then, so we'll see how it goes. You can't beat their 45-day trial policy!

According to the chart on this page: http://www.lasax.com/pricelist/page12.html it looks like the #10 is supposed to be around .082". That's pretty much what I wanted to try. More later...

[Mike Ruhl]

The #10 silver-plated bronze LA Sax/Saxtech mpc arrived today. I went home for lunch and gave it a 15-minute tryout. It's a little more open than my Rico Metalite M9 (supposedly .070"), but the rails are thinner, which is always a good thing, and the wedge-type baffle is not quite as high or as long as the Metalite, and it opens up to a nicely-shaped square chamber.

Playing it was one of those "a-ha!" experiences. It was much free-blowing than anything else I've played, and made the soprano much much more comfortable for this old tenor player. I didn't feel like I h`d all that back-pressure in my throat. Of course, the sound was bigger and brighter, but not too bright. I can use this mpc for all my playing.

Granted, it was just a 15-minute tryout, with kids screaming and dog barking (kinda like Bootman's or billmecca's house :wink: ) but I've played long enough that I can pretty much tell right away if a mpc is going to work for me. I'll try it out this weekend on my regular gig.

I haven't paid more than $40 for a mpc in a long time, but I think for the $62.95 clearance price this is a good buy for a silver-plated bronze mpc. It came with a silver-plated lig and cap, too.

Thanks to everyone for all the advice!

Mike R. :USA:

[MojoBari]

Sounds like a winner for you at a great price. Congrats.

[Mike Ruhl]

Thanks. Now it's off to ebay to sell off some unused stuff to help pay for this thing. What can I say? I'm cheap. Mojo understands... :wink:

[Mike Ruhl]

One more update, after playing my usual Sunday gig (church :wink: ).

Playing soprano nows feels more like playing alto, and it's much easier to make the quick/minor pitch adjustments. And playing a metal mpc (or, at least, this one) on soprano really gives a solid core to the sound, which is what I've been trying to achieve.

So if you're an old tenor player struggling with soprano, I suggest you "go large".

Thanks again to all.

[dolphyo]

man, what i really found interesting is for fun and private practice i've been using a selmer s-80C* refaced to a D. its was a complete surprise/fluke for me! i have been playing open soprano setups for 30 years since i first encountered mr. steve lacy back in the early 70,s. maybe what a lot of you miss is that lacy, and now liebman developed a repotoire of music tailored to a soprano mind-set few would dare face or play on a regular basis? like i said the selmer mouthpiece brought me back to my early experiences in classical music and phrasing,bach, hayden,string quartets. playing a soprano in a more open way leads you to a harmonic vertical horizontal style of playing. lee konitz style on soprano is often overlooked. man, find your way i guess? its hard enough playing a sax well,but creating a unique sound and style in jazz is what many try and do.. p.s.(mojobari) if your out there and interested i'd like to work with you on some reface soprano mouthpiece work. i am in the south jersey area near you and have some stuff to unload,trade worked on,etc....

[Mike Ruhl]

man, what i really found interesting is for fun and private practice i've been using a selmer s-80C* refaced to a D. its was a complete surprise/fluke for me! i have been playing open soprano setups for 30 years since i first encountered mr. steve lacy back in the early 70,s. maybe what a lot of you miss is that lacy, and now liebman developed a repotoire of music tailored to a soprano mind-set few would dare face or play on a regular basis?
I hear what you're saying about mpcs, but for me this was more about finding a setup that gave me the response and feel I was looking for, and not so much about trying to sound like anyone else. Although I readily agree that who you listen to does influence your tonal concept.

Not sure where you're coming with the "what a lot of you miss" statement, though. I've been around a while myself, and listened to a lot of highly individualized players. I started listening to Liebman as a teenage tenor player back in the early '70s, when he was with Miles, and that may have been my first exposure to soprano. Then I got into Weather Report and Shorter. These two guys probably influenced my concept of how a soprano can/should sound (big, full, solid core).

I only took up soprano 3 years ago on a whim, and all the setups I had tried until recently just felt/sounded too small. I'm really diggin' my new #10 LA Sax metal mpc. The window on it is noticeably longer and wider than my other mpcs, and I think this contributes a lot to the fullness of the sound. I'll keep my smaller Bari mpc for those occasions when I need to throttle it back some.

[Dr G]

OK, I'm intriqued. What modern production sop mouthpieces fit the bill of "large" tip openings and short lays? Super Session J, Otto Link XX??? Beechler ???

[dolphyo]

DR.G no modern production soprano mpc will have a short lay.to the best of my knowledge. you can get plenty with open tips .70 to .80 tip. berg larsens can be had from a .80 to .130 tip soprano but only medium lay. you can have the old conn,bueschers,martin,etc... with short lay. the downside to that is very small tips like .40 to .50 try getting one you like or comfortable with and have that refaced that way. my two cents.

[JimMetcalf]

Lawton 9B is a .090 tip opening--BUT the length of the lay is 3/4 inches-so it plays well with med strength reeds. There is more involved than just tip opening! Chamber shape-size-baffle--all influence sound. Try it before you buy it!

[1saxman]

meruhl; One thing to watch for with the metal mouthpiece on your gig is, if you let it get cold, the horn will be all over the place until it warms up. Since you're a tenor man, I'm guessing the soprano will have plenty of time to cool off between uses. Still, if a good metal mpc does the trick for you (it does for me - I blow a Guardala 'Liebman'), it's worth a little extra trouble. One thing; I almost didn't post anything to help you, because I really didn't like it that you scolded the guy for posting that extensive and informative list of soprano players' set-ups. I thought it was germane to the topic and well worth having. If you want to exercise control over thread content, you should see if they will make you a moderator - then you can micro-manage to your heart's content.

[Super 20 Player]

I almost didn't post anything to help you, because I really didn't like it that you scolded the guy for posting that extensive and informative list of soprano players' set-ups. I thought it was germane to the topic and well worth having. If you want to exercise control over thread content, you should see if they will make you a moderator - then you can micro-manage to your heart's content.Oh, well, that was helpful and on-topic. :roll:

[electricninja]

I use an unmodified Otto Link 6* metal (.063) with a Fibracell medium soft. It's fairly comfortable to play for about 15-20 minutes before my embouchure gives way. And I have to control it firmly, or I get squeaks and octave jumps on the lower stack. I'm generally a "beginner" on the soprano.

[Dave dix]

I use a dukoff M9 with med lavoz reeds on a conn new wonder curvie with pretty good results
Dave