antigua sop part 2

[lamar reeves]

I took my soprano mouthpiece to concert band practice tonight.It is held at
Baldwin High School in Wailuku,Maui.The school was constructed in the
1920s and in the storage area are all kinds of old instruments in various
states of disrepair.For some reason the dept. of ed. wont sell them or fix them and so there they sit.Among them though is a beautiful old Buescher
silver curved soprano in good repair.The band master let me use my m.p.
and try it out.It played in tune! It was like night and day compared to my
Antigua.The very low notes were a tad sharp but the octaves between
middle and high were spot on.Im sending my sop(or is it sob)back and
spend some extra money on a horn that I dont have to wrassle with now
that I that such an instrument exists.

[pknight]

I have followed your saga involving the 586, and am glad that you found a sop that works better for you. It is too bad that you did not have the opportunity to try other Antiguas, since your experience is so different from that of most other Antigua owners who post here (i.e., low notes, intonation, ease of playing are among the strengths of my 590). However, the important thing is that you have a sop that works for you.

[goodsax]

There's the possibility that by being forced to hold the curved sop with the mpc at a near 90 degree angle to the floor, similar to the position needed to play an alto, compared to being able to incorrectly play a straight sop at a sharp down angle the same as your clarinet, you're perceiving the intonation change to be entirely due to the saxophone and not the position of the mouthpiece as others have suggested in your other 586 thread.

That said, I agree with pknight that at least you're happy with your new find, and that's what's important. Also like pknight, I've had absolutely no problem with my Antigua 582, nor do I know anyone who plays a 582, 586 or 590 who has had similar problems to yours. Just bad luck, I guess. I like the Antigua sop so much, I have a 590 coming any day now.

Enjoy your new sop.

[Dave Dolson]

Lamar: Of course we are happy you've discovered a soprano you like. Good luck in finding a curved Buescher at a reasonable price. I like the straight Bueschers even better - I own two.

Now I'm going to jump your case for a moment.

At least two of us have advised you about mouthpiece placement on the cork and not once have you come back with any comment about it - the condition of the neck cork, how far your mouthpiece went on the neck, whether you were able to tune the horn over its entire range to a known source (like an electronic tuner or a tuned piano), or any other comment about our advice to you.

We don't make these posts for our own entertainment, we take the time to do this so we might be able to help you solve a problem. I suspect you can do better than this. And, until we hear from you that you tried to do the things we advised you to do, I'm going to assume that Antigua horn is a good one, just like all the others we've heard about and played and own. DAVE

[Tim Wolfe]

I'm going to second Dave Dolson's comments. Most of us genuinely want to help other saxophonists. When we offer advice, we expect that, where and when reasonable, people will try to implement it.

So, you really will do yourself a favor if you follow through on the neck cork issue. I bet it will solve your intonation problem. You obviously don't owe any of us anything, but you really ought to follow up on our suggestions when you can.

Hope this is helpful--that is certainly the spirit my comments are made in.

All the best,
Tim Wolfe

[donp]

Lamar,

I've been reading your posts, and if you're thinking or planning on selling your Antigua 586, let me know -- I am looking for one of those.

Thanks,
Don

d_p@earthlink.net

[gary]

LOL, yeah, Dave. :angry4:

(Not aimed at you, Lamar) Dave, you said what I've thought many times. I particularly like it when some SOB shotguns a question to several forums, you spend a bunch of time formulating what, hopefully, is a helpful answer and then the jerk never comes back to the thread. How self-centered.

[goodsax]

It seems Dave took the kinder, gentler approach to conveying the same message, Gary. Wow! :wink:

[lamar reeves]

Honestly,to the best of my ability I did follow Jmacs instructions.I also read
and worked with Paul Coats article.I blew that m.p. and reed until I could
produce a regular c# tone.I marked the cork and checked the notes
with a digital tuner.Im beginning to develop a guilt complex because
I didnt achieve expected results.I took the instrument to a local saxophonist named David Choy who tours with the Doobie Brothers.
He found the same thing-sharp low and middle,flat high.Of course he
plays an old Selmer so perhaps hes spoiled.I am not ungrateful for
your help.Its just that the intonation of the Buescher was so good
without having to struggle.With this I will take my problem and slink
off into night.p.s.I cant buy the Buescher or any of the other fine old
horns (including a bass saxophone)rusting away in the band room.The
D.O.E. refuses to fix them or sell them

[gary]

.The D.O.E. refuses to fix them or sell them
And therein lies the rub...and and of the reasons I decided not to continue working in a school system after one year at it (and at a very good school at that).

Lamar - I feel your pain, Bro. No huhu! At least you got another sax to compare your sax to.

Since the Antiguas have such a good reputation, and since David "certifies" your sax's bad intonation, I wonder what the chances would be of your exchanging for another one. I play a Yamaha and can't testify about the Antiquas but the Antiquas really have gotten good reports by other players here, players who know what they're talking about. You might find a good solution after all. Mahalo!

[Fred]

Mouthpiece angle can create some intonation issues. If I get too "clarinetish" with my soprano position, my intonation goes to pot. The curved sop would definitely have addressed that issue. Was that a factor in the 586?

[Dave Dolson]

Lamar: Well, at least you gave us more detail. But you still haven't told us where you placed your mouthpiece. I suppose that if an experienced soprano player thought the horn was "out", then that should do it.

But just for the sake of satisfying us, tell us where the bottom of the mouthpiece was in relation to the bottom of the cork. I can't check back on the previous thread, but I don't recall what mouthpiece you were using, if it was stated at all.

For instance, I use a Selmer Super Session (hard rubber) and metal Link on my 590LQ. I shove on a whole bunch and maybe just a 1/4" of cork remains. Those and other miscellaneous pieces also play in tune when properly placed on the cork.

As far as old Buescher sops, the good news is that there are plenty of them around. EBAY will certainly have them a lot of the time . . . Gayle Fredenburgh's site (www.vintagesax.com) most likely has some for sale (and you can trust her to deliver a good player). DAVE

[lamar reeves]

I bought a Morgan Protone.I think he only makes one facing for soprano.
I had to push the m.p. way up on the cork with only about one fourth inch
left.Someone(the factory?)had left an ink mark on both necks and the
marks were pretty close.One other thing is sort of strange.The intonation
was better with the curved neck.Hey, Im in my 70s and dont think I didnt
suspect my old chops.If David Choy(hes the nephew of another fine
Hawaii player,Gabe Baltizar,but I degress)hadnt tried it out for me I
would still have my doubts.Another thing he said is that an old fart like me
should buy the best equipment I can afford and thats what Im going to do.
Again mahalo nui loa for your kind assistance.

[Dave Dolson]

Lamar: I never doubted your chops. With this latest report, maybe the horn IS a bad one - that is always possible. So, what's it gonna be next? DAVE

[gary]

So, what's it gonna be next? DAVEYeah, it would be nice to let us know how your quest goes. And 70?! Man, now that's cool. Ain't music wonderful.

As an aside, Gabe is/was a wonderful player. Ive heard him live a number of times sometimes with his brother Norman. My mom and he taught at the same high school at the same time.

[Paul Coats]

The way modern instrument are constructed, it is not possible for the bore to be mishapen, or for tone holes to be in an incorrect position. From the Antiguas I have played, they are pretty consistent. So, considering that most other players of these sopranos have remarked on the excellent intonation, there has to be another factor at work here.

The fact that the curved neck played better for you, as well as the Buescher with its even more angled neck, I am willing to bet mouthpiece angle is a big factor.

I still would not be so quick to get rid of the A586, but work with it a bit more.

You are correct in your observation about the Buescher, these are EXCELLENT sopranos, even if the keywork is lacking as compared to modern saxes. I would love to see manufacturers copy the Buecher bore taper and tone hole size and position, and add modern keywork.

[electricninja]

At first I used bent neck on my A586 because I was afraid of overexertion on my right arm. But the proper angle got so hard to gauge sometimes that I just threw caution to the wind and used the straight neck. Suddenly the whole thing feels controllable, has better aesthetics, and my embouchure progress has been consistent. And at the same time, it's helped my flute playing too. Odd.

Just a strange anecdote...

[DaveKessler]

To fill you all in (dont know if there were posts that have dissappeared in recent forum outages)...

I gladly allowed Lamar to return the 586 soprano. We exchanged it and have sent him a Yanagisawa SC991 curved in its place (of course, he paid the upcharge).

We went through the 586, and did not find any problems. My father, in his own wonderful abrupt way, went as far as to play it while Lamar was on the phone. Lamar got him in my place on my day off... sorry Lamar! :)

However, not every horn will work for every person and the Yani is a better horn then the Antigua, but is $1400 more then the Antigua.

I look forward to hearing how Lamar does with the SC991. It was sent early this week 2nd day air (which I footed most of the bill) so he should have it by now.

[Dave Dolson]

Dave: Interesting. DAVE

[goodsax]

Dave: I wish I could have heard your dad's concert by telephone. That must have been very entertaining. - Rob

[DaveKessler]

Dave: I wish I could have heard your dad's concert by telephone. That must have been very entertaining. - Rob

I didnt get to hear it but I am sure he was probably a little more abrasive then need be... but thats how he gets when I am not here and he has to do his job as well as mine.

Poor man... :)

[jivemutha]

This beginner had terrible intonation problems above high C (more than 1/4 tone sharp on all) that were solved instantly by switching from the stock Antigua mouthpiece to a cheap beginners Selmer (C* for $60).

[goodsax]

This beginner had terrible intonation problems above high C (more than 1/4 tone sharp on all) that were solved instantly by switching from the stock Antigua mouthpiece to a cheap beginners Selmer (C* for $60).

As I mentioned in the other thread where you posted a similar message, there's a big difference between Antigua sop model numbers, so stating that you had intonation issues with an "Antigua" is not enough to make an informed judgement call. The model number is very important because of the relatively inferior quality of pre-582/586/590 Antigua sop's.

[SaxyAcoustician]

My father, in his own wonderful abrupt way, went as far as to play it while Lamar was on the phone.
:lol:

This is by far one of the funniest posts I've ever read. I wish your father could've put a whole bunch of us on conference call for that. Did you tape that phone conversation by any chance? :)

I'm not sure if lamar is a beginner on the soprano. If he is, shame on him. It's much too easy to find fault in a horn than in your own playing. Those Antigua sops are GOOD horns, by ANY standard.

[goodsax]

What you say is true, Saxy, but Lamar maintains that a professional sax player in Hawaii tried his sop and got the same result. So he might have got one that needs more regulation, or something. I'm a strong advocate of Antigua 582/586/590 sop's, but I'm open to the rare possibility that you might get a bad one now and then.

[SaxyAcoustician]

Hmmm...

I was in Hawaii for an extended business trip last year so of course I checked out the 'jazz' scene. If 'professional' means making a living playing music, then I'll accept that definition.

[goodsax]

Hmmm...

I was in Hawaii for an extended business trip last year so of course I checked out the 'jazz' scene. If 'professional' means making a living playing music, then I'll accept that definition.

Well, this guy toured with the Doobie Brothers, so I guess that qualifies as making a living playing sax. This is a quote from Lamar:

"I took the instrument to a local saxophonist named David Choy who tours with the Doobie Brothers. He found the same thing-sharp low and middle,flat high.Of course he plays an old Selmer so perhaps hes spoiled."

[SaxyAcoustician]

I guess maybe I spoke too soon. It's just hard to believe that a professional saxophone player would discount the merits of the Antigua soprano. Yes, it's possible that what lamar got was an anomalous horn, but it seems to me that Dave Kessler's father felt that it was no different from the many that they've sold.

Like I said, those Antigua sops are GOOD horns.

[goodsax]

I agree. That's why I own one.

[JMac]

...I took the instrument to a local saxophonist named David Choy who tours with the Doobie Brothers. He found the same thing-sharp low and middle,flat high.Of course he plays an old Selmer so perhaps hes spoiled...

Or perhaps he is used to over-compensating for the poor intonation of the Selmer ( :angry4: let the flames begin - I'm just being mischevious anyway.... :clown: )?

BTW - which Doobie Bros songs have sax on them?

http://www.davidchoy.net/ - warning if you are at work - high volume music loads with the web-page....

Hey Rob - did you ever connect the C# extender for those fun pinky runs? If so, how does it work for you - and who manufactures them?

Thanks - Jeff

[goodsax]

...Hey Rob - did you ever connect the C# extender for those fun pinky runs? If so, how does it work for you - and who manufactures them? Thanks - Jeff...

No. I'm fairly sure it's made by Runyon. If I get around to trying it, I'll let you know how it works for me.

[xuanvu]

It was made by Runyon... The key work pretty well for those passage that you have to switch between the low notes...

Kenny.

[JMac]

Thanks Rob - I checked both the Runyon and Oleg websites - and didn't find it at either place. Might just be my aging eyes :dazed:

[JMac]

Thanks, Kenny - I had forgotten the 590 was your former mistress. I guess i should just give a call to Opelousas, La. and see if they still make them...

[xuanvu]

I don't think that Runyon still makes them because they removed it from their website... But here is the link: http://www.runyonproducts.com/low.c.ext.html

[lamar reeves]

After all the feedback I feel guilty for having problems in the first place.
As dave K. said I did receive the Yani sc991.And yes,his father did tell
me in modified words that I was full of **** and everyone who I consulted
was the same.Probably the fact that I had no aquaintance with this infernal
instrument and that the only straight horn I had blown on for years was a
clarinet left me confused about what to expect.David Choy is a fine
musician from a musical family.His uncle is Gabe Baltizar(sp?)an excellent
jazz saxophonist.He still maintains there were intonation problems wiith
the Antigua.I have found the Yani to be much easier for ME personaly
to play in tune.Perhaps because this old fart needs a curved horn.
Perhaps Im just now figuring out how to blow the damn thing.Anyway
next time I think I'll just dummy up.And thanks to Paul Coats and Dave
Dolson and others for your help.

[SaxyAcoustician]

Hey lamar. Don't worry about it. You live and learn. Just because you can play one size of saxophone doesn't mean you can play other sizes of saxophone. It took at least 2 or 3 months to get comfortable on soprano and another 8 to 9 months to be competent on it, then another few years to sound like it was my main instrument.

In the end, you got a superior horn that you'll probably never ever part with. Of course, you paid a little more but that's the last soprano you'll most likely buy.

Good luck. :wink:

[goodsax]

Lamar: Don't dummy up now, let us know what and how you're doing with the Yani curved. Things happen. Life goes on. I'm sure there is noone here who wishes you ill will, nor who would feel better by you no longer participating in the fun. And stop referring to being old as something bad, I resemble those remarks. :wink: