All Mark VI are Out of tune?

[Tears June]

I've test about 6 to 7 Mark VI, included 4 tenor, 2 alto & 1 soprano. Some has very nice sound, some are bad. But only common thing is all Mark VI has bad intonation. Usually all flat, from half semi-note to one semi-tone flat.

I realize this is due to the tone hole dimension. The technique was not good in before, tone hole size is not very accuracy in dimension. Thus, it affect the intonation.

I want to know if ALL Mark VI are out of tune? Any chance to improve the intonation problem and will it expensive?

:cry:

[Berg-Man]

Tears,
Please check the .VS thread up above and reply. On the subject of out of tune VI'S, all I can say is there must be a helluvallot of out of tune players (myself included). My VI has as good intonation as my Series III did. How can you say the horns tune flat, just move the mouthpiece in on the cork. The scale is as good on VI'S as most any other good pro horn. They are not perfect but no horn is. What are you playing anyway? Inquiring minds want to know...

[Vortex]

Yep, they're all generally flat. They have the unique "Mark VI" sound because the player himself has to force the sax into tune, making it sound full of tone and bellowy. I personally don't see why people like the Mark VI so much, they aren't anything special in my opinion. Probably the only reason is because back in the day all the "good" players played a Mark VI. The new selmer models definately outplay the Mark VI's.

[brucesax]

All saxes are not in tune. You can't tune a saxophone...you just have to be able play it tune.

[RS]

"...one semi-tone flat."? Come on. Push the mouthpiece up on the neck. But truth be told, intonation on a lot of VIs is not great. Especially the vaunted 5-digit horns (and I own three of these). I agree that the newer Selmers have better intonation but I've never played a VI that couldn't be played in tune with a little listening and adjusting.

[jd]

tears. the mark 6s that i have played all have excellent intonation. the best !maybe you need lessons?push the mouthpiece in my brotha!

[Dave Dolson]

My alto VI has a great scale. The soprano VI I used to own was awful. DAVE

[Bootman]

There is a myth that the mk vi is perfectly in tune, it isn't. In fact no sax is intune, it is inherrent in the design of the instrument. You play a sax in tune with adjustments of throat and air speed.

The mk vi is th ebendh mark horn that other horns are rated against, the mk vi has it's own interesting tuning quirks and onc eyou have become adjustment to them, it is easy enough to play the mk vi in tune. In fact you can play any sax in tune.

It could be worth your while to experiment with a tuner and see which notes are out of tune, try this same experiment across different makes. Let us no how much the given model sax is out and at which note. This will help understand what is happening with various saxophone makes.

Some models are easier to play in tune than other model. .

[singlereed]

Operator error can be a factor.

[les]

Dudes,
My sax teacher, Joe Viola, spent years beating into my thick head the idea (which I know now to be correct) that ALL saxophones are out of tune to one degree or another and the player must learn to play in tune by listening and learning how to make minute adjustments in the pitch with the throat (and sometimes the lip). For an explanation see Dave Liebmans book "Developing a Personal Saxophone Sound". ALSO: stop depending on your Tuners to tell you where your horn is out of tune! It is out of tune in different places depending upon the KEY you are in OR the voice leading/interval configurations for your atonal pieces. You need to HEAR where the intonation is at, not SEE it. Music is a HEARING art!! Get "The Tuning CD" (at Thetuningcd.com) Much better than an electronic tuner.
By the way, Joe also taught Mike Brecker, Jerry Bergonzi, Joe Lovano, and MANY other great players to numerous to name here.

[Dave Dolson]

lesax: Are you claiming that the middle E on my Conn sop may be a tad sharp in a C scale, but okay in a G scale?

I hear it sharp in ALL scales. DAVE

[scale_master]

Dave,
what lesax means is well known in music theory: ideslly the D-sharp in a say, B scale has a different frequency than the E-flat in a B-flat scale. However, on a piano, you only have one key for it.....
This is why the tuning people of old church organs always ask about what era of music you want to play on them. For baroque music, they tune it differently than for mid-age type of music.
Going back to the sax, in different scales, you should be able to adjust the single note so that the scale plays 'evenly' (by ear!). I admit that my sax skills are far from being that sophisticated.....

B.

[Dave Dolson]

scale_master: While I appreciate your explanation, it sounds to me like theory only. When I play my middle E on my old straight Conn, I finger it only one way . . . and it plays a bit sharp regardless of what note preceeded it. Same with other saxophones I've owned that had poor scales - the bad notes were out of tune no matter what I did to bring them to pitch - and no matter what key was involved.

I agree that all saxophones may have some pitch problems unique to that particular horn and I can easily compensate for small problems (and I do, even with the old Conn), but I've owned some that were really out of tune and no embouchure adjustment or mouthpiece change would effect it. And certainly not by playing in a different key!! DAVE

[max]

What scale master is referring to is the way that the intonation of a pitch changes as the harmonic function changes.

In other words, if a C is in tune as the third of an Ab major triad, it won't be in the right place as the fifth of an F major triad.

As saxophonists, we can hear and make the adjustments unconsciously. Organ players can't adjust pitch as easily, so organs need to be tuned using the most appropriate intonation system for the intended use.

[Mike Ruhl]

You guys are really going to confuse Tears... :cry:

[scale_master]

Dave,
I forgot to clarify your point, sorry: if your horn plays 20cents sharp on one single note, no matter what scale you play, it will be out of tune
:cry:
The tolerances I was talking about are more in the +/-(2-5)cents range. As I said, if I can play my horns in tune within this tolerance, I am happy and don't bother further. However, some pros and theorists might want to go further and ask: how do I have to tune a single note in order make that scale sound perfect in the context of the music.

B.

[singlereed]

I think the answer for Tears June is that if he tried a load of different Mark VIs and didn't get on with them, then it is not the horn for him. I would suggest he should try a Yamaha Custom or a Yanagisawa, either of which has really good intonation tendencies, and if he still has a problem, then it's either his playing that's the problem and/or a mouthpiece/reed combo that does not suit him. Maybe when they are actually ont he shelves, the legendary Unison SG model would be the answer :?

[Bootman]

I remember being taught about true tuning and stretch tuning by various Piano tuners and Barber shop singers. It blew my head at the time but it now makes perfect sense. What the others have described above is correct. To paraphrase this.

C in C major will have a slightly different frequency than the same C being played in F major or Ab major.

In Ab Major it will be played slightly sharper because this is where your ear will tell you to play it so that it sounds in tune. A tuner will read this note as sharp and technically you will be out of tune (mathematically speaking that is). In reality the note will sound sweet and the interval between the Ab - C ill start to ring. When the ringing occurs you are in tune. This is how it was explained to me by the Barbershop vocal master.

Another factor to take into account is the blue note is technically somewhere between flat 3 and the major third. This changes according to wether you're ascending or descending.

More fun and games.

[Fred]

I originally posted this on another bb, but thought it would be appropriate in this thread as well. Hope you enjoy it.


Intonation:

"You must become one with the instrument, Grasshopper . . . ."

"But Master Po . . . it is flawed . . . full of contradictions. Will not becoming one with such an instrument result in disharmony?"

"If one is to attain intonation, Grasshopper, the player must accept the flaws and contradictions of life, and make them a part of his mastery. Only then will your strengths will overcome its' weaknesses."

"And how do I do this, Master?"

"Do you not hear the wind blowing through the trees . . . the sound of water dripping from the leaves . . . and the gentle rumble of a passing thunderstorm?"

"Yes, Master"

"Would you do anything to change these sounds?"

"No, Master . . . they are as they are intended to be. I would do nothing to change them."

"Now listen to the sound of the instrument. Listen to how it blends with those around it. Do you not hear when the voices are as one? Or can you not hear when its' voice is in conflict with those around it? Would you do anything to change these sounds?"

"I would change the voice that brings conflict, Master, so that all is in harmony."

"But what if the voice of conflict is true, and all the others are false? Would you achieve harmony by exchanging the truth for a lie?"

"No, Master . . . I would change the false voices and make them true."

"In your hearing, the false voices are like the sounds of the wind, the water, and the thunder. They are beyond your touch. If harmony is to be achieved, you must become one with them and flow with them. Only then will you find the path of intonation."

[les]

Dudes,(Dave D.)
I should have (but didn't) listed soprano sax as an exception, However...
The old sopranos are much more difficult to play in tune than the modern horns. Techniques involving the throat and embouchure generally will not produce a result that is extreme enough to get these horns in tune with, or as well as, their larger cousins. For these horns we need to use alternate fingerings. For instance, if we were playing a passage in the key of F major, we could play the middle E with the low C key depressed and bring the pitch down a little. Because E is the leading tone in the key of F, if it is still a little sharp it may sound well in tune. Adding the low B or LowBb key would bring the pitch down even further if needed. On the old sopranos it takes a lot of work to find alternate fingerings for the really wacky notes, but the same fingerings can also be used(with variation) for alto and tenor. Does this sound like a lot of trouble? Welcome to the Wonderful World of Music!!

[Bootman]

I have no problem playing vintage sops in tune. It is possible to do the throat and air techniques on soprano too. I never need to resort to alternate fingerings on vintage Sopranos, the Buescher is better than the Conns as far as native intonation is concerned but you can play both in tune easily enough using the air and throat techniques.

[Riff]

I'll have to agree with Bootman here. I can play my Mark VI soprano well in tune using throat and air speed adustments.
But I'll also give a nod to lesax that some alternate fingerings work well.

To address the original question- Mark VIs are not out of tune!
As others have said, you simply need to play them in tune just the same as any other sax. They are not any worse or any better than other saxes as far as intonation is concerned. Newer horns are only marginally better with intonation but this simply means the adjustments you make are easier on new horns. If you don't know how to adjust, you can play a Series III or Yamaha sax just as poorly out of tune as any other.

[AMASAX]

I want to know if ALL Mark VI are out of tune?

YES

[AMASAX]

"In your hearing, the false voices are like the sounds of the wind, the water, and the thunder. They are beyond your touch. If harmony is to be achieved, you must become one with them and flow with them. Only then will you find the path of intonation." :)

Grasshopper: "But, Master Po, how 'bout giving me a good reed?" :?

Po: "Get outa here, kid, you're on your own. I can't fix everything"... :oops: :Rant:

[danm]

I have had several Yamaha's both 61s and 62 tenors. I own a MV VI tenor and it is no more out of tune than the Yamaha's are. Every sax I have ever played has intonation issues to a degree. That's why we "practice". I think that is why vibrato was invented. Use it and you will sound like a pro. After all it is not a clarinet you know! :lol:

[Dave Dolson]

danm: Are you saying that vibrato is NOT a device to be used on clarinet? Or, are you just saying that clarinets are difficult to "lip" into tune for various notes? DAVE

[danm]

No Dave neither is the case. I just seem to hear it used more with saxes than the clarinets I play with. Unless it in in the big band that I play in then we use it on everything sax, clarinet, and flute. The two community bands that I play in the saxes seem to use it more than the clarinets do. Back to the original question, My MK VI tenor and my MK VII alto play in tune just fine with or without vibrato.

[Howlin]

In fact no sax is in tune, it is inherent in the design of the instrument. You play a sax in tune with adjustments of throat and air speed.
In order to simplify construction the horn is built around and tuned to the tempered scale (octave divided by 12) whilst workin in the "just"(acoustically correct) scale.

[Honeyboy]

This is a quote from the 1971 Selmer Band Instruments catalogue, pg.21 in regards to intonation:" Like any wind instrument, the saxophone's design is a compromise between accuracy of pitch and a number of practical considerations, such as key mechanism that is easy to regulate and use. A skillfull designer gives his instruments scales that make accurate pitch easy for the player to achieve. For example,a saxophone that moves progressively toward the high side of the pitch as the instrument ascends towards the top of its range is preferable to a saxophone that is irregularly out of tune in different registers. Only the first is a real musician's saxophone." It seems to me they are acknowledging that saxophones in general are a compromise between intonation and a workable key set up, and the Mark VI in particular, plays progressively sharp the higher up you go. It is easier to adjust to correct pitch when the sax plays progressively, therefore, more predictably, than an "inferior" instrument that has random notes being out of tune. Straight from the horses mouth!
I must say, this is how my Mark VI plays, and even my Yamaha YTS61-progressivley sharper as I get into the higher register, I have had the other experience, with my Chu Berry,Martin Indiana and The Martin as well as a King Zephyr all of which have the occasional out of tune notes stuck in the middle of a register. The Selmer and Yamaha are much more reliable in situations where ther are more horns to blend with. I still prefer my The Martin when I'm the only sax playing, due to its gutsy tone.