antigua 586 sop

[lamar reeves]

I need some quick info.I took delivery of an Antigua 586 on Friday from
Kessler.Everything is o.k.except the intonation.It plays sharp in the
middle register and flat on high notes.Im an old(and I do mean old)
tenor and clarinet player and have no real experience with sops.
I bought this because my community concert band wants me to play
oboe parts and we are also forming a saxophone quartet.Is this the
nature of the beast or if I bought a more expensive horn would I have
better results?I must decide if Im going to send it back by 1-18 since
Kessler only gives a 3 day return.

[Carl H.]

Which mouthpiece are you using?

[dpwadw]

Misc ramblings:

IMO sops are more susceptible than the other saxes to fluctuations in the embouchure.

D2 Eb2 etc are a bit sharp on most all saxes. You learn to adjust these by lipping down. It becomes automatic over time.

The higher register on sops typically require more pressure to hold pitch up in tune.

Look, the horn could be off, but Antiguas are generally considered one of the best taiwanese pieces.

[lamar reeves]

Im using a Morgan

[Carl H.]

Protone?

[lamar reeves]

yes

[Carl H.]

I don't know the antigua sop, but I have had good luck playing the protone on my no-name soprano - decent intonation over the whole range. Do you know someone you can ask to try your setup out and see if it is you or the sax?

[goodsax]

One of the strongest features of the Antigua 582/586/590 sop, that all have agreed with so far, is the intonation. I've read about intonation issues with sop's much more expensive that the Antigua, but hardly any complaints about Antigua sop intonation. I agree that a change of mpc, or embouchure, would be worthy of consideration, at least on a trial basis.

[lamar reeves]

Im sure my chops are not what they used to be but for instance I have to
almost get a subtone on middle b then clamp the octave to get it up.

[Carl H.]

Perhaps a different strength of reed might be called for. Try pushing the piece on a bit farther, using a softer reed and a more relaxed jaw.

[gary]

Regarding the mpc, I too play a Protone and I replaced a Selmer Super Session with it -that's how much I liked the Protone- so I would not think it's the mpc.

Regarding mpc placement on the instrument, I believe on many sopranos the mpc needs to be pushed in considerably, possible to the end of the cork.

Also, in my experience, the soprano is not something you can just pick up and play well -particularly regarding intonation- in a short time. It's very likely that you need more time getting used to the instrument and getting your embouchure fixed correctly for it. You've only had it over the weekend, right? Not nearly enough time to evaluate the horn, IMO, if you're not already a soprano player.

[Dave Dolson]

I agree with Gary. I tried four Antiguas when I bought my 590LQ. All of them had pretty fat corks. I was able to slide my Super Session J on three of them far enough to play in tune.

The one fixed-neck model (is that the 586?), had a cork that was just too fat to go on the neck far enough. It did not play in tune because of that. Had I been able to sand down the cork, I'm sure the thing would've played.

On my 590LQ, I shove on pretty far (with just a bit of cork remaining exposed) - played it yesterday on a gig, using a metal Link 7*, and have played it in public before with the Super Session J. No intonation problems. DAVE

[JMac]

lamar - here is an article by Paul Coats on soprano intonation that will give you some key areas to concentrate on. I know one my main issues is holding the horn at a proper angle. Link - http://www.saxontheweb.net/Coats/SopranoIntonation.html .
Article:
"Soprano saxes have intonation problems..." True but so do most musical instruments. I will show you how to minimize these problems in the following paragraphs.

All saxophones have similar inherent intonation tendencies, but they show up more noticeably on soprano saxophone for a number of reasons. Any slight change in embouchure tension will cause a greater change in pitch than is to be expected by the experienced alto or tenor saxophonist.

A mouthpiece of medium chamber volume and tip opening will give the best results. The Runyon Custom mouthpiece, with #5 to #7 facing (.050" to .060" tip opening), will give good results for most players. Try these tip openings with #2 1/2 to #3 reeds. This mouthpiece has exceptionally good response in the palm key range.

The biggest problem to overcome is the tendency to play with improper embouchure tension. If playing with too little tension, the mouthpiece must be pushed onto the neck cork too far in order to tune to Concert A or Bb. The palm keys will be sharp and the low notes flat.

Too much embouchure tension will require the mouthpiece to be placed too far out on the cork. The palm key notes will be flat, and probably choke off when the player attempts to lip them up to pitch. Notes on the other end of the sax will be sharp. The tone will be strident.

Here is the easiest way to find the proper embouchure tension. Playing the mouthpiece and reed only, the player should produce a concert Db, two octaves and a half step above middle C on the piano. Blow the mouthpiece/reed repeatedly until this pitch can be produced consistently. This method of blowing particular pitches with each mouthpiece of the single reed family is outlined in Santy Runyon's "Suggestions for Woodwind Players".

Now place the mouthpiece on the instrument. Using a good tuner (at A = 440 Hz reference), tune the soprano's middle C to concert Bb. Mark the cork lightly with a pencil. Remove the mouthpiece and recheck the embouchure tension by blowing the concert Db. Replace the mouthpiece on the cork and check the middle C tuning note again. Concentrate on using the same embouchure tension as when blowing the concert Db on the mouthpiece only. (Some bands and orchestras tune higher than A = 440. This can only cause problems as modern instruments are designed to play at A = 440.)

Play up and down the scale and check the pitch of each note with the tuner. Do not lip notes into tune, but just observe which notes are sharp or flat, and by how much. Every so often remove the mouthpiece and check the embouchure tension by blowing the concert Db.

Check the tuning of middle C and upper C. Check low register A and upper A. Find the mouthpiece position that is the best compromise for these notes. Do not lip them into tune. Play them all with the same embouchure tension. When the best mouthpiece position is found, mark the cork with a pen for future tuning reference.

Make sure the octave key is fully depressed for upper register C#. This is necessary so that the lower half of the aperture assembly will close fully. A cork or plastic wedge may be glued (using E6000 craft glue) to the octave key to aid operation of this key.

Do not "bite" for the palm key notes. These high notes are aided by slightly raising the tongue position, thus reducing the oral cavity volume and increasing air-stream velocity. Begin this oral cavity alteration at high C or C#, and increase it gradually as you ascend to higher pitches.

On some soprano saxes leave the D palm key closed for high Eb through F#. This is the advantage of having independent palm keys. If palm key notes are still sharp, have these pad openings checked and possibly reduced.

If the middle C (concert Bb) tuning note is in tune but both the lower and upper register A's are sharp, the G pad may be opening too far. A cork on the linkage controls this pad’s opening just over the lower octave vent on the side of the sax. The octave vent pad and the cork on the linkage above it may have settled in and compressed. Have a thicker cork put in to reduce the G pad's opening to the proper setting.

Do not drop the jaw for low notes. If low notes do not respond easily, "dope" the pads, or have a repairman check the instrument with a leak light. Also check that the G# pad does not crack open when fingering low C#, B, or Bb. If it does, adjust the G# closure.

When playing a straight soprano sax, hold the body out at about 30 to 45 degrees below horizontal. Do not hold it close to the body like a clarinet (unless playing a curved neck). The mouthpiece should enter the mouth at about the same angle as an alto saxophone mouthpiece. Holding the soprano sax in a near vertical angle will cause the tone to be choked off and likely to "warble" in the low register.

If the above suggestions are followed, the soprano saxophone may be played as well in tune as the other members of the saxophone family."

Hope this helps. - Jeff

[lamar reeves]

I thank you greatly for your help.You are correct, Im not a soprano
player just an old fart tenor and clarinet section hand from the big band
days.I bought the Antigua because our local concert band needs someone
to play oboe parts and we are also forming a sax quartet.Two things really
startled me,the intonation problem and also how hard it is to blow this
thing.I use a lot more preasure to achieve the same results that I get
with my tenor.Back to the shed!Yamaha advertises thier top sops as
having"excellent intonation".Is this just more hype?

[Paul Coats]

Lamar, I, too, have a A590-LQ soprano, which is identical to yours, but in addition has a high G key. Really, these two sopranos play exactly the same.

I have played all three of the current Antiguas, the A582, 586, and 590, and they are all excellent.

Mouthpiece placement is critical, run through my article which JMac pasted above, and work on that. Also, do NOT hold the soprano down like your clarinet. This will choke off the low register, and cause other response problems. The mouthpiece needs to enter your mouth like an alto sax mouthpiece, so, get the bell up somewhat. This will give you a freer blowing, more relaxed tone.

Don't use too hard a reed. I don't know what tip opening you are playing, but I am using a .060" tip opening with Fibracell 2.5 (about like a Rico 3). Don't look for a resistant feel like a clarinet, it is not, it is a small sax.

So, keep working on it, and the intonation will come in for you. I am betting you don't have the mouthpiece on the cork far enough, and not the right embouchure pressure.

Take off the mouthpiece, and blowing only the mouthpiece, you should be producing a concert Db, two octaves and a half step above middle C on the piano. The clarinet mouthpiece will produce a B one octave and a 7th above middle C on the piano. The tenor sax, a G, one octave and a 5th above middle C. Check your mouthpiece pitch, and try for that Db. Get used to the feel. Then put it back on the horn and tune up, concentrating on keeping that same feel as blowing the Db on the mouthpiece. I'll bet your intonation problems will go away.

You still have to constantly fine tune by ear, favoring the note into tune, but this is very subtle, and easy once you have found the right embouchure pressure.

It'll come along for you fine, I assure you.

So, to compare to your other instruments, the soprano is somewhat tighter than alto sax and tenor, but not quite as firm as clarinet.

[donp]

Lamar,

I've been reading your poasts, and if you're thinking or planning on selling your Antigua 586, let me know -- I am looking for one of those.

Thanks,
Don

d_p@earthlink.net

[goodsax]

There you go, Don. Looks like an excellent opportunity. Best of luck.

Rob

[jivemutha]

My rented Antigua soprano was wildly (more than a 1/4 tone) out of tune above high C (in my case they were sharp). Simply switching mouthpieces (in my case from the stock Antigua to a cheap Selmer C*) solved the problem. The same switch also reduced the usual C# problems.

Alternatively, notes above high C can sometimes be made flatter by building up the corks under the spoon keys so they can't open as much. Conversely, the can sometimes be made sharper by trimming down exisiting corks to allow for a more complete opening.

Jivemutha

[goodsax]

My rented Antigua soprano was wildly (more than a 1/4 tone) out of tune above high C (in my case they were sharp). Simply switching mouthpieces (in my case from the stock Antigua to a cheap Selmer C*) solved the problem. The same switch also reduced the usual C# problems...

Which model Antigua? There's a huge difference between a 580 and a 582, for example. A huge difference. A friend of mine bought a 580 from Kessler and exchanged it for a 590 after just two days because of intonation issues and is very pleased with the 590. I played both of these models and it was almost a night and day difference between the two. And Kessler Music sets up and tests all their saxes before shipping, so I must assume both were in the best possible playing condition.

[danm]

After reading these threads on the Antigua I must add my 2 cents. I have the 586 and frequently play duets with a very good flute player. She is in tune all of the time. I can match her note for note with my horn. I use a Runyon Custom and a Fibracel reed. The duets with the sop and flute are just fantastic. We can match the vibrato and it sounds cool.Not something that you usually hear. I got mine from Kessler also and I have been playing it for about 5 months now almost every day for hours and I have not had it adjusted and it shows no wear at all. I wish my MK 6 tenor was close to thiis horn in intonation as it is not even close. I can play ther tenor in tune using all of my bad habits. I just relax on the sop and it plays. DAN