Bari octave key vents

[Bostonsax]

Does anybody knows from when bari saxes started to have 3 octave key vents? (1 from D to G#, 2 for A to F#). I know that the Yamaha 52 has them but not the previous models like the 32 and the 61.Unfortunately I'm not familiar with other brands like Yani, Keilwerth or Jupiter. Any opinions and knowledge about this issue?
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[bariman]

I think this might be a yamaha exclusive, but i'm not sure.

Bariman

[MonchMan]

From what I have heard, the yamaha 62 and 52 are the only Baris that have them.

[MM]

Seems like having 2 vents open together is really a cheat, as opposed to 3 vents that open one at a time for 3 ranges of 2nd register notes. Does it really help very much?

Unision added this feature (similar to Yamaha's) to their SG model alto and tenor. However it seemed to make certain notes respond poorly to articulation. I forget which ones but I think the A2 was one.

[bariman]

On my bari, a vintage 12m, everything using the normal neck octave pip sounds somewhat bad, so I have pretty much given up on it, and just adjust my embrochure and air stream to produce the octave.

Bariman

[awholley]

I have had baris with 2 octave vents (12m, Selmer Series I, Buescher Big B) and 3 octave vents (YBS-52). I think the 3 octave vents caused more problems (pitch) than they solved.

[Bostonsax]

Thanks for your appreciations. My point is somewhat related to my experience. I have played only on a Yamaha 52, a 62 and Selmer Paris Super Action II and all of them have an exquisite intonation. Curiosly all of them have 3 octave key vents (1 for the first part of the octave register and 2 for the second part) . I played classical music (sax quartets) and also jazz so I have no idea if anyone have had the same experience (pristine intonation) using different bari brands , like Yanagisawa, Keilwerth or any other. Any experiences to share?

[AbrahamFackle]

Wait... is the triple vent refering to one vent for the low upper register, one for the middle, and one for the top, or does it mean one for the lower notes and 2 linked vents for the upper? I played a jupiter student bari with the latter arrngement for awhile.. it didn't help, the notes above high C were just about impossible to hit without working up to them.

Another question- my "new" horn (buescher true-tone) has multiple holes under the pad for the octave vent. What does that accomplish?

[MM]

The 2nd thing: two linked vents for the upper notes. I don't know anyone making a sax today with 3 vents for which only one is opened for certain notes.

An interesting guy named Loomis designed an alto with 4 vents for which only one opened for a particular range of notes. This had other advanced features but never went into production. There's an article on it in Saxophone Journal.

[MBushaw]

If I remember right, the Yamaha 3 hole system was done to fix intonation problems on the YBS 61. One of the posters on this forum (and a Yamaha employee) told of a field modification kit that they were doing to the 61's in stock. I guess the placement of the third hole was not quite right and this poster worked on refining the kit that was later incorporated to the 61's and later baris.
I've only played the YBS 52, and found its intonation to be spot on; I had to un-learn years of Selmer adjustments to play it in tune.

[russps]

The Jupiter (Keilwerth ST90) also has 2 lower vents (much closer together than the Yamaha). I also worked on a holtn Bari a couple years ago that had 3 pips. It switched to the 3rd pip when you played palm D and above. To make it even more strange, the lowest pip had 3 holes in it.

Russ

[MM]

That Jupiter venting system would seem superior. Is this also found in the high end Keilwerth (SX)?

Are the number of register vents a function of the size of the horn? We haven't seen the 3 vent system on alto and tenor saxes. In the clarinet word, only high end bass clarinets have double register vents. As far as I know, this was never done for soprano or alto clarinets. I guess this is because the intonation can more easily be corrected by the player on the smaller horns.

[Merlin26]

I have just checked my YBS-32 Yamaha Bari, It also has the triple vents that this poseter was talking about, but I think he may have the way that they work around the wrong way ... The double Vents (Which are located on the high end of the curl, Open for D2-G2, then from A above a single pip located near the neck reciever opens. I have also seen this on Jupiter Bari's (although they have a simple single key that when it lifts opens both vents together, where as the yamaha's have two seperate keys that can open individually of each other) The big advantage I think to this design is the reduction of the stuffiness of the second octave of the bari's. Mine plays with a beautiful strong tone all the way up to the top Keyed F, and altisimos seem easy and strong as well

Merlin26

[Jagigda]

I agree with Bariman, because i have a Yanigasawa B992 and it doesnt have this "three octave key vent", but i have played on a yamaha bari as well, and i think it might have had this, but im not certain. it might just be for tonality in the upper registers.

[jmathesonjr]

If I remember right, when Yamaha intrroduced the 62 model, the three ctave vents were new. I seem to have a recollection of Eugene Rousseau's name being mentioned in connection with this improvement. I believe Yamaha's theory was to split one of the vents into two vents instead of making the one vent larger. The splitting allowed them to make the vent bigger and to place the vents in a position to make intonation better.

The only thing that seems to be lost with this improvement is that the extreme high notes, the As and Bs above high F seem to be much harder to get.

If intonation is a problem on the Yamaha baris, it has been my experience that it is either due to the horn beiing out of adjustment or the player. I find I have to wrk much less to play a Yamaha bari in tune than a vast majority of the baris out there.

[SOTSDO]

Iffen you study the three vents, you will notice that one (the one at the neck) is about the same as on other horns. No surprises there.

The other two are part of "one vent", as mentioned above. However, the purpose of the double hole system is to allow the horn to start to speak with the smaller vent, and then only open the whole vent area once the "harmonic has been picked".

It does this by opening the lower vent (with the key action), and then opening the upper vent with a small leaf spring attached to the second key cup. The action of this spring allows for just enough delay to make it all work.

How do I know. Well, I once (pre-New Year's Eve gig) clean off the condensate splash from my horn, and suddenly found out that something was wrong with the octave key. Looking it over, I noticed that the cleaning brush had disturbed the leaf spring and popped it off of its seat. Once it was rotated back into place (where it was held by a small lip on the edge of the bearing surface) all was again well.

Since learning all of this, I find myself almost as distracted by the wiggling of the Yamaha mechanism as I was by the rocker arm portion of the octave key system on my old Selmer baritone. I've learned over the years to get my amusement where I can find it...

[Alexk]

I find myself almost as distracted by the wiggling of the Yamaha mechanism as I was by the rocker arm portion of the octave key system on my old Selmer baritone. I've learned over the years to get my amusement where I can find it...

I'm glad someone else watches that as they play.........I get very intrigued some nights with it. I thought I was alone there for a while........:D

[SOTSDO]

A simple pleasure for a simple mind....

Nowadays, with my special music glasses (no progressive bifocals, just ground for the eye to desk distance throughout), the horn itself is pretty fuzzy. So, all I see is a vague image of the two vents opening up, one after another. Not near as fascinating...

[MojoBari]

I've been playing a YBS-52 since 1984. Interesting observation, but I'm not sure there is any significant acoustic design priciple at play when the lower of the two vents opens slightly before the upper. I think it is just a way to make sure both can close tight. A semi-floating system. I think response is better when they are adjusted to open nearly simultaneously.

The location of the lower one would favor the response and intonation of D2 and E2. The middle one would favor F2 and G2. The upper one A2 on up. So if there is a significant delay in opening the middle one, articulation of F2 and G2 could be sluggish.

[jmathesonjr]

Huh? The saxophone is still a tube with holes in it right? I really could care less if the octave key is on the bell, if the thing plays in tune and responds when I want it to respond. That is why I purchased the 62 I have. I blew air into it and it responded beautifully. It still responds beautifully.

Is there anyone from Yamaha design out there who could shed some light on this????

[MojoBari]

You said you could care less. Which is it?

If you want to see the light, get a copy of E. Ferron's book "The Saxophone Is My Voice".

[jmathesonjr]

I remember and think I still have somewhere the first brochures that Yamaha put out describing the reasons for the octave key system.

Frankly, I think the discussion about them is pointless. There is some benefit to having them, unlike some of the keys that have been added to saxophones over the years, like the low B and Bb trill keys, the alternate G# key, and some of the other right hand keys that have made it into production.

Right now, I am only continuing this because I am trying to find a reason not to work on a Schenkerian graph I have due on Monday.