Bbmaj7 (B flat major seventh)

[paulman]

Why do you put the adjective "flat" after "B", and in the meantime you put the adjective "maj" before "7"? Is that correct in a nomenclature universally recognized? Don't you think that something must be changed?
Hallo to all and happy new year! Paolo Mannelli.

[Merlin]

Bb = a chord built on the root of Bb. This by itself means a major triad (Bb, D, F)

BbMaj7 = a Bb triad with a Major 7th (Bb,D,F,A)

Bb7 = a Bb triad with a dominant 7th (Bb,D,F,Ab)

The acceptance of this seems to be pretty much universal, and I can't really think of a good reason to change it.

However, one must realize that variants for major 7th chord notation exist: one common one is the chord root followed by a triangle. One of the common notations we run across in Toronto is the chord root, followed by a circled 7. Seems to be a local phenomenon dating back to the forties.

[gary]

Groan. Didn't we go through this about a year or two ago with someone (harumph) from Italy who went on ad naseum about why the existing English system is inconsistent and how he had a better one?

If this wasn't you, Paolo my apologies. If it was and you're doing this in good humour, then I also apologise. If this is a re-run, though, no thanks. :hello2:

The last time around it turned into a sequel to "the never ending story".

[paulman]

Bb = a chord built on the root of Bb. This by itself means a major triad (Bb, D, F)

BbMaj7 = a Bb triad with a Major 7th (Bb,D,F,A)

Bb7 = a Bb triad with a dominant 7th (Bb,D,F,Ab)

The acceptance of this seems to be pretty much universal, and I can't really think of a good reason to change it.

However, one must realize that variants for major 7th chord notation exist: one common one is the chord root followed by a triangle. One of the common notations we run across in Toronto is the chord root, followed by a circled 7. Seems to be a local phenomenon dating back to the forties.
Thank you for your answer. I know that what you say is universally accepted, but I'm asking to myself and to the other people, who are interested in, why the adjectif in the american nomenclature is located one time before and one time after as in "Bflat"(after) and in "major 7"
(before). I think that it would be coherent to write or "bB maj7" or "Bb 7maj", as this last we say here in Italy: "Sib settima maggiore".

[paulman]

Groan. Didn't we go through this about a year or two ago with someone (harumph) from Italy who went on ad naseum about why the existing English system is inconsistent and how he had a better one?

If this wasn't you, Paolo my apologies. If it was and you're doing this in good humour, then I also apologise. If this is a re-run, though, no thanks. :hello2:

The last time around it turned into a sequel to "the never ending story".

Thank you for your post, Gary, and good new year! I'm yet myself, Paolo Mannelli, who yet asks what no one has yet answered.
As you see the story, without answer, cannot end. If you're not interested in or if you don't know what answer, you can very well ignore my posts. Bye bye. Paolo.

[gary]

If you're not interested in..you can very well ignore my posts. Bye bye. Paolo.
Thanks for the warning, Paolo. That's exactly what I'll do.

And for those of you who have yet to have participated, you'll hardly be answering any questions that haven't already been asked by the inquisitor, and answered before. It's your time.

[paulman]

If you're not interested in..you can very well ignore my posts. Bye bye. Paolo.
Thanks for the warning, Paolo. That's exactly what I'll do.

And for those of you who have yet to have participated, you'll hardly be answering any questions that haven't already been asked by the inquisitor, and answered before. It's your time.

Also this time my questions have been ignored! Bye, bye. Paolo.

[mr_syms]

I think what the deal here is that this is just the way we do it,
it's the way we understand it, it's the way it's always been, is and forever shall be etc.
feel free to make up your own system, but just remember, you'll be the only one to understand it unless you go and tell everyone about it :)
good luck!

[JL]

Why do you put the adjective "flat" after "B", and in the meantime you put the adjective "maj" before "7"?

Paolo, I'll take one crack at answering this and I'll take your question literally. We are just keeping the abbreviations consistent with our speech (in English), so:

When we speak about a specific note (in this case the root) we say "B flat." So we write the abbreviation the same way, "Bb."

We also say "major seventh" when refering to a major seventh chord, so we write the abbreviation as "maj7."

It's as simple as that.

(apologies to gary, whose posts I really respect, for carrying this on, but maybe I've answered the question, I hope.)

[paulman]

Why do you put the adjective "flat" after "B", and in the meantime you put the adjective "maj" before "7"?

Paolo, I'll take one crack at answering this and I'll take your question literally. We are just keeping the abbreviations consistent with our speech (in English), so:

When we speak about a specific note (in this case the root) we say "B flat." So we write the abbreviation the same way, "Bb."

We also say "major seventh" when refering to a major seventh chord, so we write the abbreviation as "maj7."

It's as simple as that.

(apologies to gary, whose posts I really respect, for carrying this on, but maybe I've answered the question, I hope.)

>Thank you "JL" for your answer and many greetings for happy new year.
I know that when you speak about a specific note you say before the note
(in this case "B") and after the alteration. And that is right because you must know before which note must be altered. You want alter "B"?
O.K. Then, before, you write "B" and, after that, you place the flat "b", as we are doing here in Italy where we say "Sib". So, we all, we put the name "B" before and the adjectif "b" after.
Contrarily, when you want add to Bb major(Bb D F) the note "A", you call that "Bbmaj7", where you put the adjectif "maj" before the "7". Also in this case, as in the precedent, you must know before what note must be altered. Want you alter the seventh (that usually in considered flat)? O.K. Then before you write "7" and after you write the adjectif "maj" and not the contrary.
I know that it's too late to change your habits, but it also true that a system cannot be self-contradictory. Have I been comprised?
Ciao. Paolo Mannelli.

[JL]

LOL; man Paolo, you're cracking me up! Life, the universe, everything, can be, and often is, "self-contradictory," and I sure as hell don't know why. How do you get comprised, anyway? I'll bet anything I've been comprised more than once, even if I don't know what that means.

Happy NeW Year.

[Rex]

Paolo,

The 'maj.7' as in 'Cmaj.7' does not describe an altered tone; it describes a major seventh interval above the root of the chord (C). This is no different from the description of any other chord member that forms a specific interval above the root (the major or minor third and perfect 5th are determined by definition -- we don't say 'Cmaj.3p5', we just say 'C'; we also just say 'C min.' instead of 'Cmin.3p5'). ALL references to intervals are consistently described in this manner -- e.g. minor 3rd, perfect 4th, major 7th and so on. We also say things in English like "big river" and "the wild life" instead of "Rio Grande" and "la vida loca". I'm sorry, but in English the adjective precedes the noun, that's just the way it is. I'm pretty sure the adjectives in Spanish, French and Italian all come after the noun, in general? I'm afraid I'm not about to give up English for Italian if just because you think Italian is more logical.

However, we do also say 'b-flat' and 'C minor'. BIG difference here though, as "flat" and "minor" in these instances are not adjectives. They are not altered forms of 'b' and 'C major', respectively, but b-flat and C minor are entities in their own right. B-flat is one of 12 tones in the modern system; C minor is a triad, not an altered form of 'C'.

I have to admit that chord symbol notation is confusing to any novice (not you), and there are various notations that have the same meaning. Most notations, however, are specific and do not have various meanings. We just have to learn them, use them consistently ourselves and realize that sometimes we'll encounter someone else's preferred (different) chord symbol notation that means the same thing as the one we would use instead. To paraphrase an old quote, we are all musicians "divided by a common language." :wink:

[gary]

You guys just don't believe me, do you?

Check these out and see if you see a pattern. Like I said, it's your time if this is the way you way you want to spend it: :banghead:

http://www.saxontheweb.net/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=57393&highlight=#57393

http://www.saxontheweb.net/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=62613&highlight=#62613

http://www.saxontheweb.net/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=73508&highlight=#73508

http://www.saxontheweb.net/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=4825&highlight=#4825

http://www.saxontheweb.net/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=84175&highlight=#84175

http://www.saxontheweb.net/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=158412&highlight=#158412

[paulman]

LOL; man Paolo, you're cracking me up! Life, the universe, everything, can be, and often is, "self-contradictory," and I sure as hell don't know why. How do you get comprised, anyway? I'll bet anything I've been comprised more than once, even if I don't know what that means.

Happy NeW Year.

>Thank you JL for your answer, but my english is not so easy and I must use many times the vocabulary to understand what you say. For ex. I don't understand what you means for LOL. If life, universe, everything is often self-contradictory, this want not say that we must sleep and leave
the things go as they want. Man's mind organizes the world, I think.
If we see that something goes bad, we have not only the responsability but the duty to declare what is bad, also if we cannot change nothing. I know that today most of the people accept passively what is proposed, without asking the raison of what happens. I, in my littleness, I've found to say what I'm seeing and also if nothing shall be changed, remains my testimony. Happy new year.

[JL]

LOL = Laughing Out Loud.

And I'm still LOL, since I now see gary's point. I'm a believer now, gary.

[paulman]

Paolo,

The 'maj.7' as in 'Cmaj.7' does not describe an altered tone;

> Why have you put a point after "maj", after "Cmaj" and before "7"?

it describes a major seventh interval above the root of the chord (C).
This is no different from the description of any other chord member that forms a specific interval above the root (the major or minor third and perfect 5th are determined by definition -- we don't say 'Cmaj.3p5', we just say 'C'; we also just say 'C min.' instead of 'Cmin.3p5'). ALL references to intervals are consistently described in this manner -- e.g. minor 3rd, perfect 4th, major 7th and so on. We also say things in English like "big river" and "the wild life" instead of "Rio Grande" and "la vida loca". I'm sorry, but in English the adjective precedes the noun, that's just the way it is. I'm pretty sure the adjectives in Spanish, French and Italian all come after the noun, in general? I'm afraid I'm not about to give up English for Italian if just because you think Italian is more logical.

>In a nomenclature we must have a rule and respect it. I think that the adjectif must be located or always before or always after. You can choose the rule what you want, but after your choosing you must respect it, if you want not be misunderstanding.

However, we do also say 'b-flat' and 'C minor'. BIG difference here though, as "flat" and "minor" in these instances are not adjectives.

>As I said in my last post: before to be flat it must be "B" as in "Cminor"
Before to be minor il must be C. When you say "major seventh", you change rule, also if it is before seventh and after major.

They are not altered forms of 'b' and 'C major', respectively, but b-flat and C minor are entities in their own right. B-flat is one of 12 tones in the modern system; C minor is a triad, not an altered form of 'C'.

>The same thing you can say then about the major seventh. Also "Bbmaj7" is an identity. What means that? That you can put the adjectif sometimes after and sometimes before?

I have to admit that chord symbol notation is confusing to any novice (not you), and there are various notations that have the same meaning. Most notations, however, are specific and do not have various meanings. We just have to learn them, use them consistently ourselves and realize that sometimes we'll encounter someone else's preferred (different) chord symbol notation that means the same thing as the one we would use instead. To paraphrase an old quote, we are all musicians "divided by a common language." :wink:

>>Thank you,Rex, for your polite and kind answer. Paolo.

[paulman]

You guys just don't believe me, do you?

Check these out and see if you see a pattern. Like I said, it's your time if this is the way you way you want to spend it: :banghead:

http://www.saxontheweb.net/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=57393&highlight=#57393

http://www.saxontheweb.net/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=62613&highlight=#62613

http://www.saxontheweb.net/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=73508&highlight=#73508

http://www.saxontheweb.net/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=4825&highlight=#4825

http://www.saxontheweb.net/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=84175&highlight=#84175

http://www.saxontheweb.net/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=158412&highlight=#158412

>>>Thanks for your inquiry. In this way other people, more than five or ten of us, can go deep to the problem and express what they think about, as we were doing since now.
Problems: we can ignore them, but they are persistant till they are not resolved. Ciao. Paolo.

[wersax]

Rex, your explanation is so on the money. Wish I would have said it!