Ah, the Advantages of Being an Old Fart....

[alsdiego]

Most of the posts on this thread are somewhat defensive about being an "older" player, as if its some sort of insurmountable handicap. Rubbish, I say! Being older (I'm 61) has huge advantages. Herewith a very biased, one-sided, unscientific listing of the advantages of being an older player learning improvisation:

1. If you've been listening to jazz all your life, as most of us have, you have thousands of licks and lines already stored in your brain, just waiting to be transferred to your horn.

2. Your discipline and ability to focus may be much better because of maturity, meaning that you can actually learn much more quickly.

3. If you're old enough for semi-retirement, you may have, for the first time in many years, enough time to really practice.

4. Due to maturity, it may be easier to "hear" what's really going on in an artist's solo, and copy the concept.

5. You have the judgement to tell the difference between good advice and bad advice, unhindered by peer pressure or what's currently "cool". Like your 1957 Brilhart Ebolin? Go for it! Reminds of the young kid at a jazz camp who asked me if my 1964 King Super 20 was some kind of custom Yanagisawa!

6. If you've lived this long, you're probably unhampered by drug addiction.

7. For some unknown reason, teachers and pro players will generally bend over backwards to help you. A teacher at jazz camp told me he would much rather teach older players because they really want to learn as much as possible, not just sneak out of the dorms at night! Teachers LOVE eager students!

Any thoughts? Please don't reply unless you're over 45 :D

Old Al

[Thomas]

Vanity and denial prevent me from posting a number but suffice to say I too am an oldfart. A story;
In 1988,I was over 40, touring Europe with a quartet, sometimes quintet playing our jazz, details unimportant. One night while playing the infamous Amsterdam dump, Bamboo, between sets a young man mid twenties in years strikes up a conversation with me, asking the typical questions asked-gear-the tunes etc. The end of the conversation goes something like this....Well you guys sound great but aren't you kind of old to be playing jazz?
Stunned I was unable to utter my response which would have been. Junior I've been doing this for over 20 years already and think I'm just beginning to figure it out.
Still irks me-I've continued to do it and still think I'm beginning to get it.
I can think of few other pursuits where the opportunity to discover one's new stuff presents itself at every moment you're living it. I'm sure I have much more to offer now as I revel in my oldfartedness.

[saxophrenic]

:salute:
Alsdiego,
I claim membership in the "old fart" club and I am proud of it!



:cheers:

I am a late bloomer like you Als and I really appreciate the perspective. At this point in life one has seen the tides of fashion and foolishness come and go several times. There are patterns in life and human affairs that one begins to see and understand. To be free of vanity (our aging bodies help with that) and peer pressure is a freedom of incredible spaciousness. It seems to be just the right soil to nurture our latent musical talents.
I learned to rollerblade when I was 45 - I just had to accept that I would fall down alot at first. On the sax, it really helps if you don't worry too much if what you play some days just really sucks! You know it will get better. And it is so much fun ---

:santa: :santa:
Happy Holidays


Sorry about the Double post - the computer is so slow, I didn't think this message loaded.
Or maybe I am just stuttering ----

[alsdiego]

Chuck,

A very, very thoughtful post.... I hate to generalize too much, because every person is different, so I'll just speak for myself. It's taken a long, long time for me to get past peer pressure, others' expectations, and so on, and begin to figure out and accept who I am. Jazz is a wonderful vechicle in that self discovery if you can put "expectations" aside and try to bring out who you really are. Everyone's ear is different, and what to me might be the coolest lick on earth, might sound like garbage to someone else, and that's ok. I had to smile inwardly at jazz camp, because it reminded me so much of myself when I was young... if you had to buy a Selmer to be considered a "Serious Musician", then that's what you did, and that's what 95% of the kids at jazz camp did. I've owned both a 1958 Mark VI and and a 1964 King Super 20 in my lifetime, and they're both wonderful horns in their own way; one is not "better" than the other, and your choice certainly doesn't reflect on your seriousness about music.

Getting past the "expectations", the ego, and so on, and expressing who you are through music can be a deeply satisfying personal journey.


Al

[kcp]

I hope you don't mind me posting here. I'm not over 45 and I don't nearly qualify as an "old fart" but there were times where I wish I was.

I've noticed in my short career that audiences seem to hear what they see. And some thing I have noticed on several occasion is the advantage of having some grey hair.

I remember one time in particular where I played on the streets with a friend of mine, a late bloomer of 55 yrs old. At the time, I was something like 10 years more experienced than he. Well you should have seen that; everybody were admiring him, complimented his playing, women were flirting with him and all I got were folks giving me a tap on the shoulder saying: "Hang in there kiddow, someday you'll be as good as he" :roll: :lol:

[alsdiego]

Kim,

Always glad to hear from the "moderatrice" :wink:

OK, let's add to the list, "People will assume you know what you're doing because you must have learned SOMETHING in all those years" :twisted:

This is a great thread.... hey guys and gals, we can easily keep going into our 80's. Trust me, dentures will actually improve your sound! It helps if your dentist, like mine, plays tenor :) Is there a thread discussing the best denture adhesive for a four-hour gig?

Thank God we didn't want to be football players in our older years!

Yahooo!!

Al

[Ol' Mpc Doc]

This has to be one of the most delightful threads to ever appear on SOTW. I'm nearly 73 years old, have been playing professionally either full or part-time since 1947 and am still enjoying my 2-nights a week "jazz gig". I'm often asked by someone in the audiences, "How long have you been playing!" My wife came up with a marvelous response for me to use a couple of weeks ago: "Since about 8:30". (That's when the gig starts.....) ':D'

[Ol' Mpc Doc]

This has to be one of the most delightful threads to ever appear on SOTW. I'm nearly 73 years old, have been playing professionally either full or part-time since 1947 and am still enjoying my 2-nights a week "jazz gig". I'm often asked by someone in the audiences, "How long have you been playing!" My wife came up with a marvelous response for me to use a couple of weeks ago: "Since about 8:30". (That's when the gig starts.....) ':D'

Actually, in my "old fartnedness", I had the question wrong! The question is usually, "When did you start playing?" The answer is essentially the same, "About 8:30". ':lol:'

[Super 20 Player]

I'll post after May 2, 2005...

[newking70]

So at what age does one become an old fart?

[Super 20 Player]

Please don't reply unless you're over 45
Hence my previous post.

[fballatore]

OK, so what if you're over 45, and don't consider yourself (or feel like) an old fart (I'm 47). Can I still participate in this discussion?

(By the way Al - I'm very happy to see your number 7. I start lessons on 1/5/05, and that was a concern of mine!)

[newking70]

I guess if your 45 or older your practically ready for the rest home ehhhh :?: :lol:

[retread]

So at what age does one become an old fart?

I am 62. One becomes an old fart no earlier than 63, and that number is subject to change within the next 6 months.

As for benefits, how about the look of surprise when you help the percussionists lift timpani up the stairs?

[martysax]

Damn, I wish I was an old fart! :cry:

[Thomas]

Kim....look out this place is full of "dirty old men"

[jazzbluescat]

Kim....look out this place is full of "dirty old men"

Heh heh, little girl wanna piece o' candy? What was this thread about? I forgot....

[kcp]

Well sorry to dissapoint you guys but I already got a dirty old man for a boyfriend. He's 49 AND he's a saxophonist. You didn't think I was that smart eh? :wink: 8-)

[alsdiego]

This is great. We should form a club. And since clubs always have a name, how about "Very Inventive Adults Gaining Respect as Artists", or ******, for short (sorry, couldn't resist that one!)

Al

[wrb]

****** is great if you can remember what it is you should be taking it for!!

I am 54 years young, have had a couple of "minor strokes", and while I can't remember what the topic of a conversation always is, I still remember my scales when practicing, and always have a fresh perspective on a piece of music! I tell every body I prefer to improvise, rather than play melody line, but sometimes it's just a matter of not remembering what the melody sounds like, instead giving my spin on it.

This is fun!!

Randy

[alsdiego]

OK, Advantage #9: As a result of an occasional "Senior Moment", you may occasionally come up with a great-sounding lick which you'll never play again because you can't remember it! :shock:

Welcome Grey Panthers, Saxophone Division!

Al

[Frank D]

Well, count me in on the ****** club, or whatever this group is called. I crossed the 50 year line a year ago. What a great thread, so many good comments.

As far as the "aren't you too old....Jazz" thread, doesn't he realize that so many master jazz musicians are in their 50s, 60s and beyond?

Anyway, I have to throw in one non-music related anecdote, because it still cracks me up. I signed up for AARP when I became elligible, (age 50), just to see what kind of discounts it would get me. Unfortunately the first correspondence I got from them started "Dear Senior Citizen....."!

Regarding at what age you become an Old Fart, living in Southern Florida, seniors are in the majority in our area. My wife and I have pondered when you become an old fart, not in name, but in actions and attitude. We figure that many of the crochety seniors walking around down here were in their 30s and 40s during the swinging 60s and 70s, so when did they stop listening to the Beatles and Stones, and start liking elevator music? We have to figure out what triggers that transition, so we can avoid it.

[DirkW]

We have to figure out what triggers that transition, so we can avoid it.

The theory I cling to is that symptoms of old age are primarily due to atrophy. If you don't use it, you loose it. It applies to physical, intellectual, social, and spiritual activity. Increased activity level may not increase the number of years you have on earth, but it will certianly effect the quality of your years and might prevent a premature departure.

[jazzbluescat]

.........As far as the "aren't you too old....Jazz" thread, doesn't he realize that so many master jazz musicians are in their 50s, 60s and beyond?

I know, everybody's always cooing over the bit*hing yougster, like a mama cooing over a newborn, and taking for granted that the older player
should be good, no big deal. Heck, we old farts deserve attention if we get good, for sticking with it or taking it up later in life. sheesh

[alsdiego]

Jazzbluescat,

Absolutely, mon... There seems to be several categories of oldfartness:

1. Played saxophone when young, got pretty good, then life got in the way for 20, 30 (or in my case) 40 years; now attempting a comeback. This group has some advantages, particularly if they were lucky enough to have a very good teacher when young. You never really forget what a good embouchure feels like, proper fingerings, blowing from the diaphragm, etc., it's just a matter of working hard to get back to where you were back when. In my case, it took about a year of hard work.

2. Never played saxophone until you were older. This group has some of the most enthusiastic cats around.... if I were to offer some advice, it would be to spend a year or 2 with the best teacher you can find; learn the basics of a good sound, vibrato, fingerings, technique development, and then basic scales and arpeggios. It's just too inefficient to try to learn everything from the Internet, as helpful as it may be. Someone once said that the saxophone is the easiest instrument to play.... badly. And that's true, in my opinion. Something as seemingly simple as a correct embouchure is not intuitive, as shown by many of the comments on SOTW. A good teacher, at least for the first couple of years, can make the process much easier and more fun. Practice makes permanent, and you don't want "permanent" problems.

Jeesh, some great comments. What enthusiasm!

Al

[alsdiego]

Dirk,

Your comment about atrophy really hit home... a week ago I played a gig in a bar in Havasu City, Arizona... it lasted from 9:00 til 1:00, and I found it exhausting, even though I run 5 times a week! That warm bed never felt so good! Don't remember being that exhausted at 18! The good news was that the patrons booed when I stopped (which was frequently), not when I started!

Al

[fballatore]

Al -

Number 2 is me!! I got the bug to learn to play the sax 30 years ago, but never did anything about it... until now! I've already lined up lessons with two local instructors (so I can compare and see which one I feel more comfortable with.) I am so psyched up to succeed and become a good player. I know at my age, it will be tough to become a great player; my goal is to hold my own, to be able to play with others, and entertain myself and my family and friends.

After an initial misstep (I bought a cheap Made in China horn that I've since returned), I think I'm now on the right path - I just bought a used Yamaha YAS-23 as my first horn and can't wait till it gets here!

Wish me luck!

[saxophrenic]

Fballatore,

:) You don't need good luck. You've got all you need to succeed --- drive, desire, a good teacher (or two) and a very decent horn.
You are on your way!
:cheers: :cheers:
Keep us posted on your progress.

[alsdiego]

Fballatore,

You're on your way! Very, very cool. One suggestion... when you get your YAS-23, have your local tech go over it with a fine tooth comb... even a tiny leak can make low Bb difficult, and you might think that you're the problem. A horn that is virtually leak-free can make all the difference in the world. That, and an appropriate mpc/reed combo can make all the difference in the world. I spent a year searching for a mpc that was right for me and the style I'm into.... and I get my horn checked for leaks and adjusted every six months.

Best,

Al

[fballatore]

Hey Al -

Speaking of tune ups..

Yesterday, in browsing the web for sax info, I came across Steve Goodson's site, and musicmedic.com. Since I'm a tinkerer, what do you think about the musicmedic.com sax repair kit and Steve Goodson's sax repair video. Should I consider purchasing them, or should I leave the tune ups to the pros?

Frank

[alsdiego]

Hard to say, since I'm not very mechanical. I'd probably start with an old marching band horn first, if you can find one in a pawn shop. That way you don't lose your main horn for an extended time. I know a guy who claims he turned a Bundy II into a Mark VI by replacing all the old pads with Selmer-style plastic dome resonator pads, using jeweler's emery cloth on all the pins, oiling, putting on felts etc. Kind of reminded me of the hot rod guys, blueprinting an engine. I have a Bundy II in my closet, so I might just try it.

Al

[Gandalfe]

If either of you do this science project, consider taking pictures as you progress.

[alsdiego]

Gandalfe,

OK, but I'm afraid the "before" would look like a saxophone, and the "after" would look like, well, a pile of parts :shock:

Seriously, I think it would be fun to try this "science project". Let's see, being guys, first we need to go buy a bunch of shiny new tools:

- precision jeweler's screwdrivers

- blowtorch (to melt the lacquer in the key cups)

- plastic hammer (to swedge the posts)

- leak light

- stick lacquer

- wooden blocks (to adjust the key cups)

- South Bend Lathe (just kidding, but they're kind of cool)

- light oil

- jeweler's crocus cloth


I'm exhausted already.


Al

[fballatore]

Hey Al -

I already did all the shopping for you!

http://www.musicmedic.com/catalog/products/mm-100.html

and...

http://www.southbendlathe.com/heavy10.htm

and then...

http://www.advil.com/

[Gandalfe]

And you forgot these (http://www.princetonsupply.com/products.asp?category=Personal+Care+%26+Safety+Sup plies&subcategory=Adhesive+Bandages). :lol:

[DD]

And your significant other might direct you to:
https://www.psychiatry-online.com/

[alsdiego]

Absolutely hilarious... Kim, are you still there? I'm afraid we've drifted off to "Guy Land".

New tools! WOOF! WOOF!

________________
"Men are morons, and I am their leader"

[Chu-Jerry]

And you forgot these (http://www.princetonsupply.com/products.asp?category=Personal+Care+%26+Safety+Sup plies&subcategory=Adhesive+Bandages). :lol:So you mean I'm not the only one who ends up as a pincushion when overhauling a sax?
:D

As a nearly old fart, (46) who started last summer, I found the intricacy of the sax as a cool machine appealed to me as much as the playing. Now I've got a pile of old saxes waiting to be rebuilt, one that's done (http://www.gomodelrc.com/saxophone/rightside01.JPG), and I've learned a ton about fixing problems. I don't need to take my horn in to a tech every six months or whatever, I just deal with it immediately if something is out of sorts.

If there is interest, I'll start a new thread in the Tech forum as I rebuild the other saxes with pictures and comments so you can follow along, (or tell me I'm doing it all wrong :wink: ).

Another advantage of being an old fart: You can probably afford a better horn, or more than one. You can buy new reeds, mouthpieces, etc when you want to.

[alsdiego]

Hey, I was sorry to see this thread sort of wither and die, it was one of the most delightful ever on SOTW. Where are all you "old farts", in the rest home, eh?

Best,

Al
___________________________
Who am I, and where's my car?

[Bernards20040]

Hey Al thanks for reviving this thread.

i'm a 47 year old whos been playing (and i use the term loosly) the sax for about 4 months. i started lesons about 2 weeks ago and i think i have progressed more in two weeks than in two months teaching myself.

My horn is an old Armstrong Alto (pre Nogales i think, no "N" in the serial No). my teacher thinks it sounds great and has good intonation But then he keeps saying i have a great sound, i think im too "buzzy" though i have tried harder reeds but the sound is the same.
Now for a question is the buzziness just somthing i hear or do other people hear it too :?

[alsdiego]

What you hear and what the listener hears can be quite different. You might want to try recording yourself if you can... I think you'll be amazed. In general, I hear myself as having a much "brighter" sound than what I hear on a recording.

Al


_____________________
We ain't dead yet -- are we?

[Bernards20040]

Thanks for the idea don't know why i didn't think of it (seniors moment i suspect)

[Bud]

I must say I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread. I have purposely avoided entering the "fray" because I was afraid all the other participants would be intimidated by my young age of 80 years. Some of the experiences outlined here of almost scary because they coincide so closely with my own over the years. Without intending any boastfulness, I wish to say I still play almost every day, I still have my musical goals and I play only for my own personal enjoyment......All the best to everyone.....Incidentally, I am not a Late Bloomer. I have played since 1937.

[Super 20 Player]

I'll post after May 2, 2005...As promised...

Bud, I appreciate your comment about playing for your own enjoyment. Me, too. Carry on.

[R2D2]

Some previous discussion has centred on age as a qualification criteria.

The topic title has two parts. I believe I qualify on the first part, but on the second part I have either arrived or am about to arrive.

Remember old age and treachery overcomes youth and skill or was it old age and experience overcomes youth and enthusiasm... I forget. Hey,...maybe I do qualify......

:D

[goodsax]

Bud: We have a member in our Placentia Symphonic Band who was in the ground support crew of a bomber squadron in England during WWII. He plays clarinet and is present at nearly every practice when others find any little excuse not to be there. I'm a young whippersnapper at 64, but I've missed only one practice since 11/2003.

[Randall]

While I am not offically an O.F. at 43, I find myself playing with much younger players....often nearly half my age.

The advantages?

I can defer hauling the PA up 3 flights of stairs to the gig. :oops:

[fballatore]

I have played since 1937.

WOW! Great going Bud! I applaude you!

Frank

[jazzbluescat]

Bud, I'm similar as you, coming in on 62 in August. I've been playing for most of the past 48 years, but rarely what I want. Now I have a very strong goal to play my jazz in a small group setting and have people enjoy it(whether they say they like jazz or not). :)

You're an inspiration, indeed.

[alsdiego]

Jazzbluescat,

Amazing! We're the same age with the same goals. I've started sitting in with local groups after laying off the horn for 40 years. It's great to be back.

Al

[avan]

I start to feel old fart when younger tell me mister, when remembering those nice Conn, martin and King that no one whant at that time and was sale for nothing and even more when those storys are like fishing story.

[Adam Niewood]

"So at what age does one become an old fart?"

when you feel like one.

Look at James Moody, Roy Haynes, or Jimmy Heath. They are young at heart... and full of pi$$ amd vinegear...

[alsdiego]

OFs:

I actually got a private message from a person who was really offended by this thread, for reasons which I truly can't fathom..... wow, and I thought this was one of the funniest and most delightful threads ever on SOTW (Frank's picture of the South Bend lathe still has me laughing).... and the "hey little girl, want some candy?" line had me howling as well. I've also noticed some pretty young OF's have signed in as well..... I certainly never met to offend anyone with this thread.

Someone made the very astute comment on this thread that keeping yourself active intellectually and spritually, as well as physically is very, very important as you get older. I've been doing an awful lot of memorization lately, tunes, changes, bits and pieces of solos, and so on, and I'm amazed at how much can be memorized, even by an OF like me. Amazing!

Al

[retromom]

OFs:

I actually got a private message from a person who was really offended by this thread, for reasons which I truly can't fathom.....
Al

I certainly didn't find anything offensive about your post Al, I was very amused by it :shock:
And speaking of old farts, Frank and Charlie where the heck have you guys been? :sad2:

[jazzbluescat]

Didn't offend me.