View Full Version : Seperate listing for Guardala Horns
TenorDude
11-24-2004, 06:29 AM
Should we add Guardala horns to the B&S area or under a seperate name listing?
We used to have a number of posts under the old Forum regarding Guardala horns, but now they seem lost.
Posts are probably in the B&S area or the "Misc." area. I'll take a look later to see if there are enough posts to warrant a seperate area, but, at last check, there weren't.
Well, that was way more posts than I had expected -- however:
I just retitled this area because it seems that the majority of Guardala horns were produced by B&S (or, if you prefer, VMI). I haven't looked too in-depth at the Guardala topic, but it appears that some were made or distributed by LA Sax, too.
If someone wants to take a quick an easy stab at this for me, RSVP.
Morry
04-16-2005, 12:51 AM
The L.A. Sax "Chicago Jazz" series, and the Guardalas are both B&S stencils. I think having them all lumped together is appropriate.
Thanks. Makes things more clear to me.
There's also a thread lurking here -- maybe a year old -- about LA Sax being sold to a different company, but the former owner had his hand in (at least) the distribution of BOTH LA Sax instruments and Guardala instruments.
* Sigh * I wish companies would stick to making their own horns.
thehighend
04-18-2005, 12:28 AM
I agree with Morry's assertion.
Based in Germany, VMI manufactures (or has manufactured) professional quality horns, but none are to be found with the VMI namesake attached. Their saxes are (or have been) labelled as: B&S, Codera, Allora, Guardala, or "Chicago Jazz Series".
Since the horns are all cut from the same cloth, it is most helpful to have a single thread where we can share information about these horns.
hgiles
11-01-2006, 04:08 PM
It might be time to move out GUARDALA (Amati) since they are now different horns than the B&S made ones.
abbedd
11-01-2006, 04:33 PM
The L.A. Sax "Chicago Jazz" series, and the Guardalas are both B&S stencils. I think having them all lumped together is appropriate.
That is incorrect. the Guardala was not a stencil. it was designed from the ground up and made by specially trained tecnicians that only made the Guardala horns. These technicians were trained by Dave Guardala.
It is about time that the false informaton ceases to be repeated as truth
Abbedd
hgiles
11-01-2006, 04:55 PM
That is incorrect. the Guardala was not a stencil. it was designed from the ground up and made by specially trained tecnicians that only made the Guardala horns. These technicians were trained by Dave Guardala.
It is about time that the false informaton ceases to be repeated as truth
Abbedd
No offense, but I don't believe you. In the event you are right, though, it is better to have Guardalas listed separately. Especially now that the current incarnation of Guardalas are coming from somewhere other than where they started out and are no longer the horn they used to be, are no longer a B&S-made horn, etc....
Even though the B&S made Guardalas are undoubtedly great horns, it looks bad for the Guardala name to now be taking at least a step back from where they once were.
abbedd
11-01-2006, 05:04 PM
1) If you don't believe me you only hurt yourself
2) Has it ever occured to you that the new horns are being made with the Guardala name without permisison
3) Here is something for you to think about. Before unification, B & S was making crap saxaophones for the Russian Army. When they lost that contract they were in a very bad situation. They paid us a substantial amount of money to design a horn, train some technicians and supervise the production etc. After we parted ways they were left with the design but not the trained technicians nor our supervision. The fact that they no longer produce saxophones proves that they cannot without us.
3) Beleive what you want.
Abbedd
Morry
11-01-2006, 05:49 PM
The fact that they no longer produce saxophones proves that they cannot without us.
Who, exactly, is "us"?
BTW, the Guardala, B&S 2001 and CJS tenors that I've tried played virtually identically. At least as close as any 2 horns of the same model.
abbedd
11-01-2006, 06:32 PM
Us = Dave Guardala + his partner (me)
Abbedd
hgiles
11-01-2006, 07:29 PM
Abedd, again, I mean you no disrespect. In fact, quite the opposite, as you seem to be an 'insider' and someone that's put it on the line for something you believe in. Props to you!
I never said anything about the legality of the current Guardala labeled horns (and mpcs). I think it's been mentioned here on the forum that the Gualdala name is being used illegally. A shame whether legal or not as it tarnishes a good reputation.
1) I only said the feeling on these new 'Guardalas' are that they are inferior to the B&S-made Guardalas. I think we both agree on this point.
2) I think we agree that the B&S-made Guardalas are exceptional instruments.
3) We disagree that the old 'Guardalas' are substantially different then the B&S labeled horns, and the B&S stencils. There has been much debate in comparison of these horns over the years and there is nothing to suggest that they are different designs and of differing levels of craftsmanship.
4) You hear about the West German companies being crap before unification, but I don't buy it. Piano makers, saxophone makers, cars, whatever. B&S has a long instrument making history and there are some old 'blue-labels' that pre-date Guardala (and unification) that people hold in high regard. To say they were crap before Guardala came along is probably false. It is possible, however, that Guardala brought them a step forward. The earliest B&S I tried was 1991 or 92 and it was a great horn then and one of the main reasons why I sought them out more recently.
5) Perhaps their marketing, commitment, and reputation with saxophones is insufficient to afford them a viable profit, so they choose to focus on where their reputation is stronger -- brass instruments. As it is now it is becoming more and more difficult to manufacture anything in Europe due to the high labor costs, so I am not surprised to see cutbacks in manufacturing over there. Keilwerth is suffering too, with a very good product, Selmer's got an exceptional pedigree and a good product and you see what they've got to charge to stay in business. Face it, people buy a label. B&S isn't a great 'label'.
Morry
11-01-2006, 07:30 PM
The fact that they no longer produce saxophones proves that they cannot without us
I have no reason to dispute anything you said, other than to point out that your expertise is evidently not in the area of logic. Simply because B follows A doesn't mean that A caused B.
HUTMO
11-02-2006, 02:01 AM
That is incorrect. the Guardala was not a stencil. it was designed from the ground up and made by specially trained tecnicians that only made the Guardala horns. These technicians were trained by Dave Guardala.
It is about time that the false informaton ceases to be repeated as truth
Abbedd
How were the Guardala horns different from the B&S horns? I have seen enough images of the Gaurdala horns to see that they are very much like the B&S horns.
HUTMO
Bill Mecca
11-02-2006, 02:25 AM
maybe the B&S Horns manufactured during the Guardala period, were Guardala stencils? ;)
Balladeer
11-02-2006, 02:58 AM
abedd - I bought a Guardala Pro tenor in black nickel just over 4 years ago. Thank you for chiming in to this thread and posting here. I, too, am interested in the differences between the B&S 2001 and the Guardala. Also, I would like to
(A) understand the theoretical differences in tone between the Artist (72% copper) and Pro (85%) models.
(B) know what type of players (market) these tenors were aimed at.
(C) have a viable reason why, regardless of the number of techs who examine and/or adjust my tenor, the notes from low D# down are significantly more difficult to make speak at low, subtone volumes. The techs find this true as well as me. Is it because the bell to body joint is reversed from the way most other horns are? I know because one of my techs checked the bell to body joint for leakage and said that the part that fits inside the other is the other way around on most other saxophones.
Ruediger Kramer
11-02-2006, 09:19 AM
It might be time to move out GUARDALA (Amati) since they are now different horns than the B&S made ones.
so it is...
thehighend
11-02-2006, 09:41 AM
That is incorrect. the Guardala was not a stencil. it was designed from the ground up and made by specially trained tecnicians that only made the Guardala horns. These technicians were trained by Dave Guardala.
Am I correct in understanding that B&S obtained the design and manufacturing expertise from "you" (and DG), which subsequently gave them the wherewithal to produce ostensibly identical saxes like the 2001,Medusa,Cortois,Allora,etc.? That is interesting, if true, because in that case I would agree that those latter saxes should be thought of as Guardala stencils.
It's a funny thing, sharing manufacturing designs and training people... after you have done it, they often turn around and start using those skills to compete with new models of their own. Manufacturing history is replete with such examples. I imagine that is how Yamaha and Yanagisawa got their start. It's really a shame that the current high labor costs in Europe have forced B&S to give up their sax production.
...Based in Germany, VMI manufactures (or has manufactured) professional quality horns, but none are to be found with the VMI namesake attached. Their saxes are (or have been) labelled as: B&S, Codera, Allora, Guardala, or "Chicago Jazz Series"...Just wanted to add Courtois to the list. Of course, Courtois were previously stencils by other makers.
Ruediger Kramer
11-03-2006, 11:14 AM
Just wanted to add Courtois to the list. Of course, Courtois were previously stencils by other makers.
as i wrote a few month`ago: i own Guardala- and Courtois (Medusa)-tenors - they look alike...
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