Suggestion for the fourm moderators........

[newking70]

How about section in the fourm for talking :argue: about politics and current events? Or what about a SOTW fight club :boxing: , just kidding on the fight club suggestion :D

[Hurling Frootmig]

My first response would be that there are a host of sites that people can go to and discuss politics and current events. I'm sure that moving forward we will have some discussions about better communicating the purpose of the SOTW Forum Lounge.

[Pete]

Sounds ominous, doesn't it?

newking70, as has been stated in the FAQ, we really don't want discussions about religion, sex or politics, even in the Lounge. Harri made an exception for the "Apopogy" thread because he essentially agreed that someone would try posting a thread like it, so we may as well let some folks blow off some steam.

However, even blowing off steam, we've gotta still abide by SOTW Rules.

Furthermore, we had a couple of banned members once create a "Sax Fights" fourm that was actually pulled by that forum's provider because of content. I don't want that to happen here.

I can accept Harri's and Hurling's comments about not really wanting a "Lounge" area on SOTW that's non-sax. I rather like having one, though, and I've been "fighting" to keep it, but if it's abused, I'll support getting it pulled.

[Randall]

This is an open thread.

May I humbly offer that POLITICS or POLITICIANS or TERRORIST talk or threads be banned across the board.
No grey area or "exceptions".
I am ALL for abiding by the rules.
Make them clear.

My post was to guage and opinion...show of hands or emoticons.
If other posters violate the SOTW "code" censor them.
In light of deleting that post,
the excuse/reason given for alllowing the apology thread to continue is, IMHO, simply hypocritical.

While I don't want to be "banned" and am in no way a "troll", I must say that I enjoy this board and have many friends and aquaintances here and I have also contributed to the forum greatly for several years. As a result, I feel that I also should be treated (or in this case, "moderated") fairly....


If you want to ban me for thisopinion, so be it.
Won't make it right, though....

But one thing for sure, this post isn't religious, political or sexual. It is in no way as incendiary as the apology posts have been.

What this post is, is about doing the right thing, equally.

:notworth:

[Sigmund451]

If there was a vote regarding this Id vote no. In hindsight, the long discussion regarding politics was intersting but IMHO led to some negative feelings and exchanges. People meet here because they have something in common. We are facing a time of extreme divison regarding many fundamental issues. Small havens of common ground may be all we have in the near and perhaps distant future. I think we should consider them worth protecting.

[JimD]

I agree with Sigmund. We are living in a period of great division, I see many of the opinions that have been expressed here recently as extreme, and offensive, and I'm sure some people would have seen mine in that light if I'd participated. I accept everyone's right to hold their opinions, even as I may find them appalling, but I don't think this is the place to express religious or political difference, or even preference. There are other places if that's what you want to do.

Personally I don't find that arguments on the internet lead to anything valuable as they quickly degenerate from discussion into aggression with no chance of establishing consensus or common ground. We've been here before on this forum and, while I regret the loss of the vibrancy that accompanied these exchanges, they quickly began to take over. This place is about saxophones and saxophone accessories, and issues that come out of that. There's still room for debate and discussion but religion, politics and sex should be peripheral.

[newking70]

If you want to ban me for thisopinion, so be it.
Won't make it right, though....

Dont ban Randall - He's an oracle of sax knowlege...........

[gary]

I don't know why Randall's post is as defensive as it is. Obviously I've missed something and it makes me curious 'cause when Randall says something I listen.

Regarding a separate area for discussing religion and politics, I am not for it. Although I participated (and I can't help myself sometimes when the subject is politics or religion) I have been very surprised that the "APOLOGY" post was not deleted immediately u0pon its being posted, and certainly that it has been allowed to continue for so long.

As I understand the forum rules that post is inappropriate here and, as such, should be deleted. I don't understand (if i am right about the rules and how they have been moderated in the past) why an exception has been made.

And again, regarding the original suggestion, I vote no. I have seen it din the past where a person's ideology spills over into other threads and people then use those instrument-topic threads to take cheap shots based on comments in other political-relegious threads. Let's argue about whether a silver horn plays brighter than a gold one.

ps. In all fairness I think I should add that the "APOLOGY" thread has been, to date, very civil and respectful. Maybe SOTW doesn't have some of the morons it has had in former times.

[Chris S]

I must also vote no on a religion or politics forum. As has been said, there are a lot of places to do that on the internet. Significantly more places to do that than to talk about saxophone.

The way that I view the use of this forum is an exchange of knowledge and observation. Along with observation you will inevitably get opinion. However, opinion is very different from any kind of aggression, which is what I saw happening on the Apology thread. I would vote yes to having that thread (and any subsequent attempts to tackle the same topic) deleted. I always try to be very professional while posting here. I have certain opinions about certain things and certainly about certain people, however I keep those to myself. If I were at a NASA conference, I would certainly never try to talk politics with someone there. If I were at any kind of a professional meeting, I wouldn't try to talk about theology (which is different from religion). I guess that's the bottom line for me, I try to be professional. This doesn't mean that I can't have some fun, as I regularly read the jokes section and respond to things that are on the lighter side. However, I still try to maintain a professional appearance.

As for getting rid of the entire Lounge area, I also vote no on that. I see the lounge as a place to get non-saxophone advice from saxophonists. This can be invaluable, as there are certain things, as we all know, that only a saxophonist or fellow musician will understand (i.e. our ineptness at socializing at times, our 'quirks', our ability to sit in a room by ourselves for four hours making noise.... and somehow being strangely content with that). I think this is a very important portion of this forum.

Again, BIG NO on politics and religion. BIG YES on having the Apology thread deleted. Politics and religion would be a waste of bandwidth here, go somewhere else to talk about these things. If (for some strange reason) there is a politics and religion category added, I will regretfully not post here anymore.

Chris S

[RS]

No politics? No religion? No problem.

[DougR]

I can only assume that Newking70 is unaware of the background.
I for one still mourn the loss of D.P. but can entirely understand why it had to go, and why it is not likely to come back.

I cannot see any mileage in deleting the Apology thread, it was (mostly) civil, very well moderated, and the heat has gone out of it. Were the decision mine, I'd leave it stand.

[Pete]

Trying to tie everything up ...

I think I mentioned about three or four times that I didn't want to see any thread even close to the "Apology" thread on this Forum, and I was genuinely suprised that Harri let it stand, but he did.

All of the Admins and Mods on this Forum essentially agreed to let it run, as long as it was relatively civil. However:

* Several posters have had their posts deleted from there and/or have been told to modify their posting habits.
* One poster was temporarily banned. He agreed to cool it a bit and his privileges were summarily restored.
* As I kinda thought, because we let that thread stand, as soon as Yasser Arafat died, we started getting posts and threads about him. I quickly closed those, pending review by the other Forum Admins/Mods. They agreed to keep them closed.
* Hours after I posted that we're not currently opening any more "political" type threads -- and this thread started -- another member posted a thread entitled, "How About Bin Laden?" This was summarily pointed to the FAQ where it says, essentially, "Don't post threads in the same vein as topics an Admin or Mod has closed" and "Non-saxophone posts will be deleted at the whim of the Moderators/Admins". The thread was deleted.

Answering the question, if we're not discussing Arafat, we're DEFINITELY not discussing Bin Laden on SOTW.

==========

I've also mentioned a zillion times my support for some area like our current Lounge -- or even the old Discussion Place on eesites. However, while it seems we can all discuss sax relatively civilly, we can't discuss any other topics that way, and that saddens me greatly: there is a whole lot more to the folks that post on this website and only seeing them as, "Dude that plays sax" doesn't do them justice.

So: my vote is that we have a Lounge that is INVITATION only and rights to this area can be revoked at the Admin's/Mod's discretion.

[jazzbluescat]

.................................................. .............................So: my vote is that we have a Lounge that is INVITATION only and rights to this area can be revoked at the Admin's/Mod's discretion.

I'd agree wholeheartedly if first, I knew the criteria for being invited. Maybe one criteria could be, and this is only a suggestion, financial contributors.

Anyhow, I say nay to politics and religion threads & forums. Those areas are too argumentative and would tend to "take over," as was stated earlier.

[bariman]

I definetely agree that Politics/religion should be avoided at all costs, and that this should be explicitly stated in the Rules. I also think, after this amendment to the rules has been made, that if a user tries to start a thread that has anything to do with politics/religion (this would be the mod's collective opinion), that user would be banned for up to five days, more or less depending on the post. I think the same penalty should apply to contributors of these threads, as well. Strict- yes. Nescesary- I think so, but not my call.

In the "Apology" thread, I voiced early on my doubt at how long the thread would stay open, and was amazed that it is still, to this day, open. It sure went against all I thought about the leaders of SOTW. No matter how civil the exchange is, I just don't think politics/religion has any place at this forum.

Edit: Thanks, Harri, for finally closing down the "Apology" thread.

Bariman

[gary]

Well, saxpics, if there was that much trouble on the APOLOGY thread and if it needed that much moderating and if it is, essentially, not compatible with certain Forum rules and if several posters were warned, banned etc. but if the forum administrators/moderators have continued to post responses which stand unmodified or uncensored, wouldn't this seem a bit arbitrary?

Please understand, I am not saying you and the others are being unfair, but I think mixed messages are being sent out if a thread, which otherwise is not in accord with Forum rules, remains open and moderators participate. It seems like rules are being bent. In something like this consistancy is important.

Also, regarding a forum area by invitation only, seems a bit too elitist for my tastes. And a bit too censor-prone as well. Again, to use that word, this just seems to me to be getting a bit too arbitrary.

[newking70]

So: my vote is that we have a Lounge that is INVITATION only and rights to this area can be revoked at the Admin's/Mod's discretion.

Kinda sounds like "Animal Farm".............. :snorting:

[Neil Sharpe]

The name of the forum is Sax on The Web. I vote to leave it there.

For discussions about politics, religion, philosophy etc., there are plenty of Forums specifically designed for those purposes.

[newking70]

I agree topics should be innocuous, lets celebrate the brotherhood of the sax :occasion:

[Randall]

Hats off to Harri :salute: for closing the "apology" thread, admitting the problems and promising to do something about it (see the end of the "apology" thread).
He has shown good judgement, humilty and forthrightness, all qualities in short supply here, at times.

Time to move on and, as Newk said, let's celebrate the brotherhood of sax!

[bariman]

Ditto!

Bariman

[Greyduster]

I can sympathise with all the anti politics religion on the forum comments, especially if it causes the moderators more of a headache than they want. On that basis alone I would have to say'OK let it go' I just think it's a shame that we can't have an area of the forum where posters can exchange views with each other.

On the rest of the forum we talk only about sax issues and when talking across thousands of miles and different cultures it gives only a one dimensional view of people. The non-sax area gives us a more 3D view or each other.
The image we have of 'a nation' tends to be the image presented by the media and ultimately that is a censored and often misleading view. I've never been to America, Israel, South Africa so I have no first hand experience.

Communicating here with people who have at least one thing in common, about other issues has been a real privilege and made me review some of my misconceptions (OK then prejudices) about 'America' and 'Americans' as one example.

I would be sorry to see the non-sax discussion area go but ultimately it is the moderators' call. I accept that.

[gary]

greyduster - I think you make a good point about the different nationalities and cultures represented here and I think many of the things you might like to discuss would still fall under the Forum rules as they now apply, though. I think what's being suggested is just a difference between chatting about respective school systems as contrasted with more inflamitory subjects.