flute ...

[Jazzophone]

I started on flute when I was 6 -- by the time I hit the saxophone I had already been playing for about five years. I've been fluctuating between the two ... lately I've found flute has become a bit overclassical for me. :P maybe I've just been swept up in the saxophone madness! Anyone else fluting here?

[ferrari]

Lots of flute players here,myself included. Check out the Doubling archives in the old forum. Some really good info.
If your a good boy, our Southern hemisphere pals Bootman and Gordon NZ will check in here. :lol:

[Gordon (NZ)]

Just 'checking in".

I left the classical aspect of flute a long time ago, and have been playing fl/pic/clar/4xsax in pits for shows since. That is not classical.

Nor is the music the jazz flute players play.

[Sassaphone]

Gordon NZ, about a year back you posted a rather long piece on starting flute. I think it may have been lost in the last attack. Could you repeat the part on forming an embochure and in acquiring a student flute, and perhaps a word or two on good books for beginners--thanks.

[Bootman]

Checking in, we hear you. Gordon, JackW, Myself plus a few others should be abel to help you out here. One of us should be able to answer your questions. Both JackW and Gordon have been invaluable to me many times in the past too. I just want to publicly say thanks to both of these two blokes.

[ferrari]

Ditto.

[Jack W.]

Sweet, I'm a bloke now! :)
Oops, I mean I was before too! :o
Anyway, I actually wanted to start on flute way back in third grade, but my parents wouldn't let me (particularly my dad) because "boys don't play flute". So they started me on alto sax, which I dutifully played for two years -- all while making a complete brat out of myself about wanting to switch to flute. I wore them down and switched to flute in sixth grade. I played sax very little since then, until about three years ago when I started doubling in earnest. Clarinet got added about 18 months ago and I've caught the pit doubling bug something fierce.

But flute will always be my first love among the woodwinds, and in addition to the pit orchestra stuff, I do enjoy playing "classical" music on flute. But not really on saxophone. I would enjoy playing "classical" music on clarinet if I were good enough to do so. :(

[Gordon (NZ)]

Thanks guys. I'd rather be a down-to-earth "bloke", "guy", or even "mate!", than an English "chap".

Sassaphone, I'm too busy for the next few weeks to reconstruct the items you remember. (Choir concert - with Seatle Men's Chorus! - and playing in "Anything Goes".)

I keep a copy of much of what I write, simply because this sort of material takes so long to put together and to try to make unambiguous. However I don't seem to have kept the two you mention. Perhaps somebody else did.

[Gordon (NZ)]

Lip Apperture

Here's a little food for thought. I posted this in a flute forum and got only one respondent. It must be too wacky, off-beat, or technical for that conservative bunch. I thought it would start quite a discussion:

"Just a half baked notion to throw around.....

"One of the world's top recorder ('blockflute') makers once explained to me the extreme importance (for volume and tone) of the shape of the chamfering of the 'far' end of the windway - the end furthest from the player's lips. (The windway is the narrow channel that you blow into). This chamfer be at exactly the right angle and extent, top and bottom. Have a look at a recorder and you will see it. The stream of air that has passed thorough the windway expands slightly when it passes into the open space on its way to the 'fipple'. This expansion must occur in a controlled way such that the airstream remains relatively non-turbulent, and hence fully effective when it impinges on the fipple to produce a tone. The chamfer is responsible for this smooth, controlled transition.

"Likewise, we have a windway between our lips. (And relatively relaxed lips are necessary to increase the LENGTH of this windway to reduce turbulence) At the location on our lips where the airstream leaves the lips, there must be a critically shaped profile of the lip aperture, equivalent to the chamfer of the recorder's windway.

"It is my contention that we achieve this by use of the change of texture of the tissue of the lip, from the part that is lip-red but normally damp, to the part that is lip-red but normally dry (and firmer from being constantly exposed to the air. I believe players with a good tone USE this texture change, positioned exactly right at the end of the 'windway', to form the vital chamfer. The shape of the 'chamfer' is a delicate balance influenced by parameters of lip texture, location and profile of the area of texture change, the lips pressing slightly together, and the pressure exerted by the airstream itself.

"Lip tissue seems to firm as children become adults. I have noticed that as an adult it is far easier to maintain good tone with little practice than it was when I was a child. I wonder if it is the case that children do not have such a pronounced texture change in the lips, and hence have more difficulty achieving tone control by other means.

"I would be interested if other players could identify their texture change line, and check in a mirror to see if they are utilizing it by for control of profile at the exit of the 'windway'.

"Also, I am not familiar with much literature on flute playing. Has this topic of utilizing the lip's change in texture for non-turbulent airstream exit been covered in the literature?

[Jack W.]

Interesting comments on the lip aperture, I agree that the size and shape of it are critical in producing a good tone on flute. I also agree that this aperture ought to be loose but controlled, a thing I learned only relatively recently in my 25 years of flute playing. My teacher always contended that the aperture needs to be "long and flat" for the lower notes, and gradually get "taller and narrower" as you go up the scale. It may be that it is easier for adults to do this more consistently, once growth has stopped.

The author of "Horns, Strings, and Harmony" (Benade?) points out something I like to mention to sax and clarinet players when they start doubling on flute, which is that indeed there is a reed involved on flute also -- only the reed is made of air and generated by the player. I feel that these subtle changes we make to the lip aperture correspond to changes in the "length" and "thickness" of the reed, which are very subtly different from one note to the next. Not sure if this is an overly crude way (or even a completely inaccurate way) of putting it, but it has been helpful to me.

[Gordon (NZ)]

I totally agree with your comments on the flute reed. I have found the concept very useful myself.

I once went to a music camp, hoping for total immersion in flute playing. There were too many flute players, so I was unable to play in the orchestra. Instead, I was sidelined into a choir. I had been taught the basics of sight-singing but had very little singing experience.

The highly esteemed choral conductor was so instructional about breath control and other issues I related to flute that I probably learnt more about flute playing form him than the other players did from the dedicated flute tutor (who seemed more interested in taking the girls out on his pleasure launch!

Anyway, he explained that the difference between a tenor and a bass was not so much the range, but more the tone quality. The tenor has thinner vocal chords - compare violin strings, while the bass had thicker vocal chords - compare cello. Each thickness was more appropriate for the tone needed for the given pitch range.

Which is pretty well what you wrote. I am conscious of altering my flute 'reed' to suit the tone I wish to achieve for any pitch range.

[Jazzophone]

I've actually had a bit of a doubling problem of late ... maybe it's just me in my "beginner" stages (flute for 8 years but sax for 2 and a half) but I've noticed that now with my flute playing I'm developing what my instructor likes to call a "bari grip." Apparently since I started playing baritone saxophone this year my right hand grip on the flute has changed from the nice rounded out hand you're supposed to have to very closed in. I'm not quite sure where that came from as the grip on saxophone is pretty much the same, with a subtle change here and there ... but I've got closed in grip now, and my fingers tend to go over the keys with the flute body balancing on the side of my thumb. Anyone else had this kind of problem? Ideas on how to fix it? It's really impeding my playing ...

Thanks in advance. :)

[Bootman]

Agreed on the lip aperture, looser and flatter for low register, small and tighter for the upper range. The whole cut of the head joint can influence the size and flatness of the embouchure too, test it out for yourself. The material of the head joint and chimney also have a noticeable effect on the quality of the tone produced. There is a difference between the choice of embouchure hole chosen by men to those chose by women.

I have spoken, tested many different combinations of head joints, embouchure hole and cuts with a well known flute maker, John Lehner here in Sydney. I would recommend doing something similar if you can in your area. This will help you in ways that you can't really begin to understand until you have done so.

We don't accept inferior mpcs or mpcs that don't allow us to achieve the best possible sound we can from our Saxophones. Why do we accept this with any of the Flutes we play :?: Some of us don't, but others haven't experimented enough with flutes. Why :?: Is flute considered inferior to the Sax, played only when you absolutely have to as a double (often the case with many sax players). I have a sound concept in mind as to what I wish a flute to sound like. This is what we all need to achieve in our flute playing.

The flute takes a lot of time to get right, I may never get the perfect classical flute sound but this doesn't mean that I shouldn't aim to have the best sound that I can possible get with the correct size apperture, cut of headjoint, material of head joint and the features within the keywork of the Flute that I can. I want a big, rich dark flute sound that still projects but doesn't sound thin in the 3rd register.

Sorry for the preaching, I know that I am preaching to the converted here. I use a rose gold tube head joint with a solid Platinum lip plate and Chimney. This is a very resistant headjoint but when you push the air through it, you certainly can get the big dark resonant sound. The fun is inthe playing of the instrument, the testing of different sounds, materials and generally trying to play the best that you can.
:lol:

[ferrari]

Gordon, Jack, Bootman; Thanks for checkin' in. I've been practicing a lot for upcoming gigs and I've noticed of late that the 3rd register comes most easily, incuding E3, when my lips are relaxed. I've been meaning to post on this, and lo and behold Gordon brings up this very point. I also find that even though flute is my first instrument, it takes considerably more effort to get a good tone throughout the range of the instrument, than it does the sax. It goes away quicker too!

[Gordon (NZ)]

"It goes away quicker too!"

You need to firm up those lips with other activities between playing times. :)

[Bootman]

Very true words. Flute takes lots of work.

[ferrari]

I'm playing more flute now than I have in years, and as all you serious doublers know, that added versatility means; more work. Another added benefit I'm discovering is that, (as shown by the popularity of this forum), there are a LOT of talented sax players out there. This is certainly not the case with jazz flutists. So even though I shine fairly well on my tenor and alto, I get the most compliments when I play my flute. I guess I'll have to spend more time in the shed, and really wow em'!

[ferrari]

After reading my last post the "more work" I was refering to, is paying gigs. Of course it takes more work practicing too.