The New Selmer LaVoix Saxophones?

[bari_saxxy]

I just got the new WW&BW catalogue in the mail the other day and on the back cover they are advertising both the Keilwerth Shadow and the Selmer LaVoix. It says its "the latest offering from Selmer" and it "is reminiscent of the great saxophones of the past." They are priced really cheaply. Are these Selmer Paris or Selmer USA instruments? Are they a cheaper knock-off of the Reference instruments? Could this be something like the Selmer Omega? wwbw.com has nothing up yet about them and I can't find any info anywhere. Does anyone out there have any clues?

[Mark5047]

Dave Kessler posted something under the new product announcements about it - it seems these saxes are made in Taiwan and are being positioned between the student and the SA80 - not quite sure if they are considered Selmer USA or Selmer Paris - maybe a 3rd division, Selmer Taiwan???????

[Vortex]

Selmer Taiwan... oh boy.

[awholley]

This kind of seems like final validation that the Taiwan is a real player in the production of saxes.

[Joe Jazz]

Yes, it would seem that saxophones are doomed to follow in the footsteps of so many other things.....cheap labor=made in Taiwan

[bruce bailey]

Or Selmer is not a REAL American company.

[newking70]

I guess the glory days of Elkhart, Indiana have long since past :pale: . But it would be nice to see an American made sax along the lines of a TH&C, or a 30m, I guess i'am just a pie in the sky dreamer :laughing: :laughing:

[Gandalfe]

I read in the paper today, "How can $15.50 an hour American workers compete with $.50 an hour laborers oversea?" I don't have an answer.

[shmuelyosef]

People in Japan live pretty high quality middle class lives working at the Yamaha and Yanagisawa factories...these are a splendid combination of automation and craftsmanship (they still hand-engrave the highend horns). I believe that a quality horn could be made in America at a competitive price, but it would probably take a Japanese company to do it. Witness the excellent quality competitive Honda's being made in the Southeastern US.

[bruce bailey]

I have been considering a US made sax to go along with the flutes I build. The problem is always to compete in the marketplace. Would people be willing to pay $3,000 for a Martin-buescher-6M Alto? Risky at best.

[GenericGuy]

Witness the excellent quality competitive Honda's being made in the Southeastern US.

Yes, the Hondas are a good quality auto. But, Americans are still paying about $2,000-5,000 more for these American assembled cars than Canadians pay for the exact same model.

Bruce, as for making an American manufactured saxophone... these Taiwan saxophone are not meant to compete with the professional $3,000 saxophones. For music stores the majority of business is with beginners, and they sell these low-end instruments by the dozen. Taiwan has just found a way to make a disposable saxophone that is cheaper to replace than it is to repad.

In the end, it's clear these inexpensive instruments will not be disappearing. If I ran a music store I would be purchasing dozens of these instruments (not specifically the Selmer ones, but something of Taiwan origin) and renting them to students. Parents are happy because their kid got a shiny new saxophone with absolutely no scratches, and within the first 4-6 months of a rental you recoup your entire investment in the instrument.

There will always be the professional market, but the best profits are with the beginners and accessories.

[Pinnman]

Have pity on the poor UK car buyer who pays way more even than in the States!

However, on the question of who makes what, my understanding is that the Elkhart sax (the current one, not the old Buescher made horn) is made in Madagascar under the supervision of French technicians. In fact (still my understanding), they (the techs) are from Selmer and the sax is a copy of the SA80 Serie 2.

How far copy extends, I am not too sure, because I cannot imagine the materials to be of the same quality.

The Kessler web site now has some more info on La Voix saxes under the Selmer (USA) logo:

http://www.kesslermusic.com/html/sax/selmerlavoix.htm

Now, here’s the fun: the Conn-Selmer Inc. site does not mention them under either USA or Paris and the French site does not mention them either. Yet Kessler has info. including prices!

[DaveKessler]

Barry,

I show the Selmer USA logo simply because this is a project of Conn-Selmer, Inc. and not Selmer Paris. I am assuming that they will bare the Selmer USA logo... however, since ConnSelmer will not have any available until NAMM 2005 (Jan), then we wont know for sure until then.

All of my information is a combination of 2 things:

1. Conn-Selmer has just released their new price list effective Nov 1, 2005 that has the models and prices. It also has a basic description.

2. The discription in their catalog has the "Ultra Bell" and Red Brass tube. The Ultra Bell is the ever popular thing from Taiwan with Cannonball's Big Bell Global Series, Antigua Winds Power Bells and various private label Large bell horns. The "Red Brass" though is what caught my eye.

We have imported horns from Taiwan directly ourselves for several years. We have come across only 1 factory that does Red Brass as an option... this was the factory that made my CR Kessler Bronze saxophones. Also, the rest of the description fits my horn specification wise to the letter.

So I personally think they are now buying that horn. Again, this all an educated guess based on a lot of fact and personal experience.

I am stopping production on my CR Kessler saxes because the factory that makes them has raised price signifigantly by bringing in a middle man to take care of "Smaller Accounts" and grouping them all together. But by doing this, it has raised my cost by about 25% making the horn not worth my time to import and deal with all of the headaches of doing it.

This also seemed to me to be a strategy by one of the factory's Bigger accounts putting pressure on them. I figured it was Cannonball (since I personally think they buy from that factory) but it looks like it may be they want to focus on Conn-Selmer instead.

How ironic is that? Selmer buying from Taiwan when Taiwan copied Selmer for the majority of their designs! Granted, different Selmers but imagine the clout that that Taiwanese company feels right now!

As I posted in the other thread on the subject, when I have new info, I will post about them.

[AMASAX]

i spoke with the head of Selmer/Elkhart Band Instrument Division early this year at a convention, and he told me he was under direct orders from his boss to move production offshore. So, i suspect little, if anything, is still made in Elkhart these days.

Too bad...

[Pinnman]

Dave,

I hope I did not express myself in a way which implied any doubts or criticism of you - I don't read it that way, but say this just in case.

Anyway, many thanks for your interesting response; it not only clears up some points of uncertainty, but casts an interesting light on current saxophone manufacture and corporate culture (as well as the effects on enterprising businesses like your's).

An interesting irony, indeed, not least because the Taiwanese factory does not even need to be identified by name to carrry such clout.

[DaveKessler]

i spoke with the head of Selmer/Elkhart Band Instrument Division early this year at a convention, and he told me he was under direct orders from his boss to move production offshore. So, i suspect little, if anything, is still made in Elkhart these days.

Too bad...

there definately still is plenty of US made product from conn-Selmer and even in their student line equipment, the majority is still made in the USA. However, they were essentially ordered to add production of Taiwanese product (as well as some Chinese) because of increased competition.


Barry,

No I did not take any criticism at all. I read it as the nature you posted it. I am glad that someone posed the question the way you did so that a more thourough answer could be given.

[Sigmund451]

Its nice to send more jobs to other nations If we hurry we can become a third world economy. There is always something to aspire to.

[DaveKessler]

Selmer has added the La Voix saxes to their web page at:

http://www.selmer.com/content/la_voix/index.php

They have released the logo which is a Selmer USA based logo as I predicted. They have yet to add any credible information or pictures to this site but it is nice to see them at least put them on their site.

Go figure, keep a web page updated?

p.s. Mods, this thread should probably be moved (or duplicated) to the Selmer USA forum.

[Pinnman]

... and now, from Selmer Paris, comes the Selmer Prelude! A leading UK sax dealer states, "Designed as an offordable option for the beginning students. This Prelude Tenor Saxophone of entry level combines value and performance. All instruments are built to stringent specifications as determined by Selmer and Bach".

Is there any link between this sax and the La Voix or is it merely coincidence that the two distinct companies have brought out new student models at the same time? And how curious that the great French company should at long last be producing a student model. Signs of the times ...

[Dave dix]

Built by stringent specifications as determined by selmer bach is a give away it is taiwan or Chinese made horn
Dave

[stevesklar]

and now, from Selmer Paris, comes the Selmer Prelude! A leading UK sax dealer states,

Don't you mean from Selmer Taiwan :lol:

I think the dealer is mistaken. Why would Paris bring out a student horn? It's probably a Selmer USA horn w/a different name. But then, what do I know.

[Dave dix]

Perhaps selmer has an India branch?Are the pads bright red?
Dave

[stevesklar]

I guess it's a Prelude of things to come (pun intended)

:razz:

[Mark5047]

I can see it now:

Selmer - "By French Engineer"

Pretty, isn't it? Imagine, you have all heard of the incredible deal where someone got a concert quality............. (blah blah blah)
((((insert spinning fish and cross here))))

[stevesklar]

did a search and found one on eBay of all places.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=16234&item=3758045 463&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW


brand new, wants $519 buyitnow price.

says it's from Conn-Selmer Inc. but goes on and talks about Steinway and Bach-Selmer ......

[Dave dix]

Conn went rapidly downhill after the Nogales move,is this the selmer Nogales collapse via the far east?
I wish premium companies kept premium manufacturing but everyone has to make a living
Dave

[stevesklar]

I don't think they'll have a collapse of quality, as long as they confirm and test the product that they want built. but Selmer USA has to compete against everyone else now (Antigua Winds, Cannonball, Kessler, etc.) that makes horns our of Taiwan & China and are getting cheap labor and grabbing market share.

[DaveKessler]

Yes, the UK dealer is mistaken.

first, lets clear up the Conn-Selmer/Selmer Paris association.

Selmer Paris and Conn-Selmer are 2 distinct and different companies. Conn-Selmer serves as a distributor of Selmer Paris products and vice versa, Selmer Paris serves as a distributor of Conn-Selmer Products (like Bach trumpets).

The "Prelude" line of instruments is Conn-Selmer trying to give a Chinese made alternative. And to tell the truth, they arent half bad horns. Originally, they either said on the horn "Prelude by Bach" or "Prelude by Selmer" depending on the product type.

They have now simply renamed them "Prelude" because many dealers thought that the by Bach or by Selmer would start to lower brand name recognition for quality of the 2 brand names.

So the UK dealer is getting a "Prelude" (a Conn-Selmer, Inc.) product through Selmer Paris, its EU distributor.

The 2 line, Prelude and Selmer La Voix, are in no way related to each other other then the fact that they are sold and marketed by Conn-Selmer.

[Stacey]

So is this what you're saying?:

Selmer Paris does not have a new saxophone product.

Selmer USA (Conn-Selmer) has two new products:
1. La Voix
2. Prelude

I've tried to eliminate all the stuff about "who distributes what for whom", and just focus on which company the products "belong" to. Did I get it right?

If so, then I'm also curious why Conn-Selmer would bring out not one, but two new medium-quality lines of saxophones. I also enjoy seeing them give one of their products a French name - gee, no attempts at misleading the band parents in that, huh? Kind of reminds me of the time when I was a teenager and the music store almost sold me an Omega for the same price as the Paris horn...

I think it's time we started marketing Sturbacks coffee, Rollex watches, and Rolls-Roice automobiles.

Stacey

[DaveKessler]

Stacey,

You are correct about who makes what.

The Prelude is NOT an intermediate level horn. CS (Conn-Selmer) does not market it as such. The Prelude line is their offering to help USA dealers compete with the growing number of Chinese made horns. The Prelude are the Lowest level of student instrument offered by CS.

The La Voix is designed to be their intermediate horn.

I do not think that they are trying to mislead anyone. They do not say "France" or "Paris" anywhere on it. Also, since the Selmer USA company was started by one of the Selmer brothers, I think that it is fair game. Its simply marketing. They are not using the Selmer Paris logo either but rather the Selmer USA logo.

[Stacey]

OK - It makes more sense, now that I hear one is strictly student-level and the other is intermediate.

Of course it's marketing. Purely and simply. And yes, it's often misleading - very intentionally so. If the world's finest saxes were Chinese, the new horn from CS (and many other companies) probably wouldn't bear a French model name. It would be something with a vaguely Oriental sound to it...

Like you say, just marketing. An attempt to whip up our feelings, desires, and GAS such that we choose one model over another. If the goal were to be clear and straightforward, all of our horns would just have dull names like:

The Conn Student Model
The Conn Intermediate Model
The Yanigasawa Professional Model - Solid Silver Version
Selmer Professional Model #19
etc...

Thanks again for the clarification on the CS horns. Not that I'm shopping for any more saxes - EVER. Done. Finis. No more GAS.

Stacey

[retread]

If not for names designed to make the product sound attractive, KFC would advertise "Hot, dead chickens for sale."

[bruce bailey]

Conn-Selmer is also using "Aristocrat" for cheap Chinahorns and mostly for flutes under Emerson, Selmer and Armstrong.

[DaveKessler]

Conn-Selmer is also using "Aristocrat" for cheap Chinahorns and mostly for flutes under Emerson, Selmer and Armstrong.

not true. the "Aristocrat" name indicates Taiwan.

The only name that they use on Chinese horns is the "Prelude" brand. This is a seperate brand name now. They are no long going to put on the horns: Prelude by Selmer but rather just Prelude.

[bruce bailey]

Sorry, my mistake. I forgot that they had both asian horns now. There are a lot of these being promoted but most of the dealers I know are still getting the US horns (flutes at least).

[DaveKessler]

Sorry, my mistake. I forgot that they had both asian horns now. There are a lot of these being promoted but most of the dealers I know are still getting the US horns (flutes at least).

Well the flutes for sure. They have done a decent job of keeping the USA made flutes in a reasonable price range and still keeping the quality exceptionally high. I think the Armstrong USA flutes are really done well.

[bruce bailey]

My main line was Emerson for about 20 years and I switched to DeFord last year and the product is the best I have found. He is in the old Emerson factory where they were for years until the Selmer buyout. I check daily to make sure Selmer hasn't bought me!

[clay7926]

Hmm...I wonder how those who swear by Selmer are reacting to this product announcement.

Will Selmer be praised with this effort to make quality saxophones at a more affordable price, or will people call these horns "Taiwanese crap?"

Just an observation. Put down your guns and flamethrowers, please. :lol:

EDIT--I do agree with the sentiment that this move by Selmer USA does show that Taiwain is now a force to be reckoned with when it comes to saxophone design. The quote "Strike me down and I'll become more powerful than you can ever imagine" comes to mind here..

[DaveKessler]

I dont think this will affect that image much because this is not a product of Selmer Paris.

I highly doubt that there are many "Selmer USA people".

[Hurling Frootmig]

In case anyone is curious LaVoix is loosely translated to "the voice".

[Pinnman]

There is an interesting article on "etruth" on Conn-Selmer and other matters Elkhart at http://www.etruth.com/news/story/316606/index.html . It is dated (being from last February) but it does cover some of the points discussed here.

On the question of "marketing", the wording (to describe the Prelude brand sax), "new budget instrument designed by Selmer", looks, at the least, to be ambiguous - especially in the UK where Selmer means Paris very much more than it means USA. Yet that is how another leading UK dealer describes it.

Finally, am I right in thinking that Selmer Paris had an intermediate line clarinet called "Prelude" a few years ago?

[bruce bailey]

I think they have a Bach flute in the UK that would be a Bundy here.

[AMASAX]

the above referenced article on etruth.com mentions in the 2nd paragraph 'the impending closing of the Selmer plant in Elkhart.'

Anyone know anything about this? I find it hard to believe Selmer would mothball the entire operation in Elkhart.

[Tissot]

Selmer Taiwan... oh boy.

Selmer USA.......... oh brother....... :lol:

[andrew feigenbaum]

I bought a Selmer LaVoix in December from music 123. This model was reccommended by a local music shop with a good reputation. I would have purchased the Saxaphone from him, but he was not expecting stock until March 05. Anyway got the horn at a good price, Music 123 came through with everything they promised. It has a really nice sound. I am a beginner ,so I didnt trust my own judgement and asked a few teachers and sax players and so far they have said it is a good horn . I 'm very happy with it, Construction seems solid and like I said it really sounds beutiful.

[DaveKessler]

http://www.kesslermusic.com/SelmerBach/AS220/AS220.html

Finally got my first ones. This is the alto. The tenor I have as well and other then different engraving, its that setup.

If you havent read my NAMM report in the Misc Sax Discussion, do so. Some interesting stuff this year.

Also, the La Voix is the SAME horn as the Antigua Power Bells just made in Red Brass and in a nicer case.

In fact, all of the Selmer Taiwanese made saxes that I have seen now have a twin in the Antigua Line.

Interesting, Selmer buying a sax that is a copy of a Selmer. :)

[DaveKessler]

Finally had time to photo the LaVoix tenor.

http://www.kesslermusic.com/SelmerBach/TS220/TS220.html

[newking70]

so does the fourm need a third selmer section?
selmer (paris)
selmer (usa)
selmer (asia)?

[Dave dix]

Why do they need a double arm on the low C and B key? or will they bend without one.
Dave

[Dave Dolson]

That double-arm things is primarily a Yanagisawa feature, isn't it? Two of my Yana altos had/have that feature. So with all the mergers lately, is Selmer using Taiwanese manufactures to copy Yanagisawa saxophones to put the Selmer label on them? Confusing . . . DAVE

[Pinnman]

Just to add to this, the Steve Goodson Unison tenor that passed through my hands recently also had something similar.

The following comments are from the Unison site (there is nothing, though, at Saxgourmet - I believe the two parties have fallen out):

Double Armed Low C and Bell Keys
An additional arm prevents horizontal flex in the large key cups. The keys have a much more positive feel.

SG: I'd love to take credit for the idea, but I can't! This has been around for a long time, first being used on the King Super 20. We've just taken it a couple of steps farther:

Looking at the photos, this feature may be tenor only.

[DaveKessler]

This really belongs in the Selmer USA section I would think since this is a product of the Selmer USA company, Conn-Selmer.

The double arms have no real purpose on alto or tenor. Bari I do like them but still not 100% needed.

The Taiwanese factory that makes these horns for Selmer (Ping Factory) started double arming a year ago for the Antigua Power Bells.

This was done Before Selmer USA approached them and before the Leblanc buyout.